How long should the lock down last?

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Birdstrike said:
You want me to abandon my optimism in favor of your paralytic, pessimistic herd-think, so you don’t feel “exhausted”?

Not a chance.
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MUH HOPE

Look, this situation is gonna be bad but improving over the next year. Desperately seeking a magical solution is delusional, bordering on paranoia. People need to have patience. Reality is tough; that's just how it is.

GeneralVeers said:
One more piece of data raising into question the efficacy of lockdowns....
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No, this proves we need more expansive and strict lockdowns. Americans cannot achieve with force of law what the Swedish do voluntarily...
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CheGuevaraMD said:
MUH HOPE

Look, this situation is gonna be bad but improving over the next year. Desperately seeking a magical solution is delusional, bordering on paranoia. People need to have patience. Reality is tough; that's just how it is.



No, this proves we need more expansive and strict lockdowns. Americans cannot achieve with force of law what the Swedish do voluntarily...
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That's not at all what it proves
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
That's not at all what it proves
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How? We wrecked our economy and still achieved a worse result than herd immunity? Seems like pure herd immunity in the US would have led to even worse outcomes (due to obesity, a more social culture, etc.). Plus, fall is here and winter is approaching.

Our current strategy isn't working and a more liberal approach would mean more deaths? What does that lead us to? More and harsher lockdowns.
 
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CheGuevaraMD said:
How? We wrecked our economy and still achieved a worse result than herd immunity? Seems like pure herd immunity in the US would have led to even worse outcomes (due to obesity, a more social culture, etc.). Plus, fall is here and winter is approaching.

Our current strategy isn't working and a more liberal approach would mean more deaths? What does that lead us to? More and harsher lockdowns.
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Our current strategy is working fine. Hospitals aren't overwhelmed. That's what the lockdown was for. That was it.
 
CheGuevaraMD said:
No, this proves we need more expansive and strict lockdowns. Americans cannot achieve with force of law what the Swedish do voluntarily...
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What are you waiting for? Start by setting an example. Quit your job/school, stay home, quarantine yourself and avoid all social interaction. For "safety." Start a trend! Everyone will follow. You'll be a hero!
 
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Birdstrike said:
What are you waiting for? Start by setting an example. Quit your job/school, stay home, quarantine yourself and avoid all social interaction. For "safety." Start a trend! Everyone will follow. You'll be a hero!
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I already do! And it isn't hard. Luckily my local political leaders are supportive of lockdowns, but I wish there was more enforcement to stop whiners like you who so desperately need their "freedom" during a raging pandemic.
 
CheGuevaraMD said:
I already do! And it isn't hard. Luckily my local political leaders are supportive of lockdowns, but I wish there was more enforcement to stop whiners like you who so desperately need their "freedom" during a raging pandemic.
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So you're OK with the skyrocketing rates of worsening of mental health and child abuse?
 
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
So you're willing to sacrifice the children for the elderly.

Noted.
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Children are losing 30 years of their lives from a one-year lockdown?

Or are they growing up stronger, and tougher, making America great again?

The evidence strongly suggests the latter.
 
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CheGuevaraMD said:
Children are losing 30 years of their lives from a one-year lockdown?

Or are they growing up stronger, and tougher, making America great again?

The evidence strongly suggests the latter.
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Beyond that, what "evidence" suggests they're growing up stronger because of this?
 
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CheGuevaraMD said:
So you have no evidence. Okay then!
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Of course I don't. Never said I did, which is why I asked you for evidence. You're the one claiming that this pandemic causes kids to grow up tougher. You have no evidence of that.

What I have is evidence of a sharp drop in the number of child abuse reports since this started. Now maybe it's possible that everyone being stuck at home caused actual abuse to drop by 50%, but that seems unlikely.
 
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
Not really. It took us 6 months to catch up which was the whole point of lockdowns - slowing things down while we prepared.
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Well the fact that stuff is still closed down 6 months later in many states is sad, and not part of the stated goal of the original lockdown. Honestly if hospitals aren't ready, and can't cope by now, they never will.
 
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GeneralVeers said:
Well the fact that stuff is still closed down 6 months later in many states is sad, and not part of the stated goal of the original lockdown. Honestly if hospitals aren't ready, and can't cope by now, they never will.
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I could see having some restrictions: lower capacity, mask requirements, stuff like that. 6 months isn't enough time to build new hospitals after all. But very little should still be completely shut down at this point.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
I could see having some restrictions: lower capacity, mask requirements, stuff like that. 6 months isn't enough time to build new hospitals after all. But very little should still be completely shut down at this point.
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Nothing really explains the continuing business restrictions in California. Neighboring states have opened up almost everything and their numbers are declining.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
Our current strategy is working fine. Hospitals aren't overwhelmed. That's what the lockdown was for. That was it.
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Fair point.

VA Hopeful Dr said:
So you're willing to sacrifice the children for the elderly.

Noted.
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C'mon now. My kids are starting the school year at home, and as much as I'd prefer they were in their beautiful school, that's not "sacrificing" them.

Are we making sacrifices? Yes. Are my children being sacrificed? No.
 
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CheGuevaraMD said:
On balance, lockdowns save lives: Do Lockdowns Bring about Additional Mortality Benefits or Costs? Evidence based on Death Records from 300 Million Chinese People

Americans need to increase their mental toughness if they can't deal with staying home for a while. They would have failed to survive during an other era of American history.
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"Lockdowns' (more accurately termed social non-pharmacologic interventions targeting viral suppression) save lives when combined w/ effective public health measures to continue viral containment.

This country didn't do that. We basically got the worst of both worlds. The Trump administration utterly failed. But realistically, we shouldn't expected any better...
 
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WilcoWorld said:
Fair point.



C'mon now. My kids are starting the school year at home, and as much as I'd prefer they were in their beautiful school, that's not "sacrificing" them.

Are we making sacrifices? Yes. Are my children being sacrificed? No.
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Did you miss the article about child abuse reports?

I'm not worried about the kids of anyone here. I'm worried about the kids who would normally be at school where teachers would see signs of possible abuse and report it. This goes double for families where the parent(s) are furloughed or laid off and so under way more stress. I'm worried about the kids of low income families where both parents (or one in a single parent home) have to work and can't help them with their virtual learning.

To be clear, I am not going full libertarian here and saying we should be completely open with no restrictions whatsoever. I'm just saying that we have to consider the significant harms with some of the measures we've taken and that some are still doing. I am mostly anti-lockdow again, at least on a large scale. If a certain area has a major worsening that threatens to overwhelm the local hospitals, you might be able to convince me to let that lockdown happen in that specific area. But if we mandate way less harsh things (masks, reduced capacity in high risk areas) that shouldn't be needed.
 
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Looks like the normally sensible Australians have lost their minds too. They've gone down the road of economic suicide to get to "near-zero transmission rate". The PM of Victoria has declared Stage 4 lockdown with a curfew after 8 PM (because that's when the virus comes out) and re-shuttering all restaurants, gyms, bars and cafes. This will be indefinitely until they get to less than 50 cases/day. That's a tough goal to reach anytime soon in a city of over 4 million people.

It's very sad. If any of you have have ever been to Melbourne it's a spectacular city with one of the best cafe and restaurant cultures in the world. A lockdown of another 2-3 months will destroy this.

www.abc.net.au

Stage 4 is due to end next week. What COVID-19 scenarios might Melbourne be facing?

Based on the experts' modelling and observing the trends, here are a few scenarios outlining where Melbourne might find itself in by mid-September.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
 
GeneralVeers said:
Looks like the normally sensible Australians have lost their minds too.
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The Australians allowing their government to imprison them doesn't surprise me in the least. They gave up any hope of ever fighting back against tyranny in 1996.
 
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Birdstrike said:
The Australians allowing their government to imprison them doesn't surprise me in the least. They gave up any hope of ever fighting back against tyranny in 1996.
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What's frustrating is that this Aussie lockdown is publicly not about "letting hospitals get ready" or "bending the curve". It's about actually stamping out the virus. I just don't think you can quarantine 4 million people in a dense city long enough to get rid of the virus. As soon as they re-open in 2-3 months it will likely just spike again, resulting in another lockdown. The economic damage is going to be catastrophic.
 
GeneralVeers said:
What's frustrating is that this Aussie lockdown is publicly not about "letting hospitals get ready" or "bending the curve". It's about actually stamping out the virus. I just don't think you can quarantine 4 million people in a dense city long enough to get rid of the virus. As soon as they re-open in 2-3 months it will likely just spike again, resulting in another lockdown. The economic damage is going to be catastrophic.
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Why stop at COVID? Lockdown forever to stamp out all communicable diseases. Why stop at COVID at all. Start at the top of the list of most common causes of preventable death and work your way down (COVID is nowhere near #1). Ban fat and sugar to "stamp out all" obesity and heart disease. Ban cigarettes, cigars or anything smokable to "stamp out all" lung cancer & COPD. Ban cars to "stamp out all" car accident deaths.

See?

Easy.
 
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Birdstrike said:
Why stop at COVID? Lockdown forever to stamp out all communicable diseases. Why stop at COVID at all. Start at the top of the list of most common causes of preventable death and work your way down (COVID is nowhere near #1). Ban fat and sugar to "stamp out all" obesity and heart disease. Ban cigarettes, cigars or anything smokable to "stamp out all" lung cancer & COPD. Ban cars to "stamp out all" car accident deaths.

See?

Easy.
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We've become completely risk averse. I can certainly see many low-risk behaviors and activities being banned in the future "just to be safe".

It's funny that in Vegas, we closed the bars in the casinos, and mandate everyone wear masks in order to "protect" the workers. Smoking is still legal and tolerated in casinos, and is arguably a bigger health threat to the majority of employees than COVID-19. It was a great opportunity to ban indoor smoking in Vegas, and we missed it.
 
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CheGuevaraMD said:
I already do! And it isn't hard. Luckily my local political leaders are supportive of lockdowns, but I wish there was more enforcement to stop whiners like you who so desperately need their "freedom" during a raging pandemic.
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I=
CheGuevaraMD said:
I already do! And it isn't hard. Luckily my local political leaders are supportive of lockdowns, but I wish there was more enforcement to stop whiners like you who so desperately need their "freedom" during a raging pandemic.
Click to expand...
Do you have a lot of followers? By that I mean a lot of people following your example?
 
Auckland did a brief semi-lockdown to prevent additional transmission while they contact-traced the original cohort. Tracked down about 3000 folks in order to cap the outbreak at 100-odd cases. Melbourne is obviously much larger, with many more cases.

Some Australian states have eradicated COVID. Melbourne was on track until their isolation hotels blew it. To rejoin the rest of their country in the good times, they gotta go full elimination.

It's also cheaper to give money to cafe owners/staff than pay costs of hospitalization with widespread infection.
 
Has anyone noticed the media screamed loudly about rising “second wave” of covid cases literally two months ago......
...but is absolutely silent on producing balanced headlines that “cases have peaked again and are falling” or “great news! There is no second wave of deaths!!”

what are lockdown crusaders using to fuel their arguments now..?
 
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xaelia said:
Auckland did a brief semi-lockdown to prevent additional transmission while they contact-traced the original cohort. Tracked down about 3000 folks in order to cap the outbreak at 100-odd cases. Melbourne is obviously much larger, with many more cases.

Some Australian states have eradicated COVID. Melbourne was on track until their isolation hotels blew it. To rejoin the rest of their country in the good times, they gotta go full elimination.

It's also cheaper to give money to cafe owners/staff than pay costs of hospitalization with widespread infection.
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Is it though? Is it cheaper to pay the paychecks and replace company income of huge portions of the population than it is to pay for hospital bills for ~5% of the population that gets it?

despite australia (socialized medicine there?) having a heavy handed govt i am not buying the math, particularly when the govt can’t stop this, people are still gonna get this virus
 
wamcp said:
Has anyone noticed the media screamed loudly about rising “second wave” of covid cases literally two months ago......
...but is absolutely silent on producing balanced headlines that “cases have peaked again and are falling” or “great news! There is no second wave of deaths!!”
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This has been my rant all along. They had no hesitation to print panic-laden garbage like, "Mass graves! Bodies piling up in streets! Hospital systems collapsing! IN TWO WEEKS!" But never, never, will they print, "Great news. Looks like our predictions were wrong. Cases falling without extreme lockdowns. Remember the 'delay' we used to scare you to death? Good news is that falling cases + delay means deaths certain to fall in two weeks!"

Never forget that the media will exaggerate and often outright lie for clicks, ratings, profit and career advancement, and a many people will always fall for it.
 
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Birdstrike said:
This has been my rant all along. They had no hesitation to print panic-laden garbage like, "Mass graves! Bodies piling up in streets! Hospital systems collapsing! IN TWO WEEKS!" But never, never, will they print, "Great news. Looks like our predictions were wrong. Cases falling without extreme lockdowns. Remember the 'delay' we used to scare you to death? Good news is that falling cases + delay means deaths certain to fall in two weeks!"

Never forget that the media will exaggerate and often outright lie for clicks, ratings, profit and career advancement, and a many people will always fall for it.
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People just need to stop watching cable news and tune out at this point. We don't need any more lectures on masking, social distancing, or "we are all in this together" from our betters in the media, entertainment, and sports.
 
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GeneralVeers said:
People just need to stop watching cable news and tune out at this point.
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True. The problem is, when they do turn off cable news, they long onto social media and read the same drama from either the same talking heads (or their surrogates) posting the same fake news online, which is then taken up and parrotted in viral fashion. Once the lies are repeated enough, people believe they are true. It's a classic propaganda technique that alive today as much as ever.
 
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PA and several other healthcare workers sue Democrat Governor of Michigan due pain and death to their patients after her lock-down banned necessary health procedures and treatments for their patients.

"My patients suffered because of Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer's illegal lockdown" - USA Today

Lawsuit filing
 
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Birdstrike said:
PA and several other healthcare workers sue Democrat Governor of Michigan due pain and death to their patients after her lock-down banned necessary health procedures and treatments for their patients.

"My patients suffered because of Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer's illegal lockdown" - USA Today

Lawsuit filing
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There will be an incalculable number of these lawsuits over the next 10 years. The damage to people's health and wellbeing is extensive.
 
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GeneralVeers said:
There will be an incalculable number of these lawsuits over the next 10 years. The damage to people's health and wellbeing is extensive.
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Governments have sovereignty immunity in using their public health police powers. Americans simply need more grit and need to stop whining about lockdowns.

Also:

www.nbcsandiego.com

1st SDSU Student Among COVID-19 Surge Hospitalized as Cases Reach 440

The positive cases are among students living both on- and off-campus and has increased exponentially since the surge was reported one week ago — from 64 to 440.
www.nbcsandiego.com www.nbcsandiego.com
 
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