How long would It take for a new dentist to pay off their student debt?

[Big Time Hoosier]

The more and more I read from this thread the more daunting America's economy seems to be. If a doctor can't make a reasonable living within 5 years of graduation and licensing, no less start a practice, then sooner or later this economy is gonna crumble. No wonder you don't hear stuff like this until you dig deep and discuss with anonymous professionals, we've got to keep the cogs turning.

Hell, I google "average dental student debt" and I get $292,169. Now I don't know what numbers are being pulled here to be this low but by the looks of it on dental school explorer, 290k is equivalent to about 2.5 years of dental school tuition. Are people getting grants and scholarships (outside of military) on some insane level? But I see on Reddit one guy with 320k of debt, another guy with 550k.

Big Hoss

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[voxveritatisetlucis]

The more and more I read from this thread the more daunting America's economy seems to be. If a doctor can't make a reasonable living within 5 years of graduation and licensing, no less start a practice, then sooner or later this economy is gonna crumble. No wonder you don't hear stuff like this until you dig deep and discuss with anonymous professionals, we've got to keep the cogs turning.

Hell, I google "average dental student debt" and I get $292,169. Now I don't know what numbers are being pulled here to be this low but by the looks of it on dental school explorer, 290k is equivalent to about 2.5 years of dental school tuition. Are people getting grants and scholarships (outside of military) on some insane level? But I see on Reddit one guy with 320k of debt, another guy with 550k.

Many dental students, and perhaps to a slightly lesser extent medical students, are trust fund babies. These people don’t factor into debt figures

In medicine, 1 out of 3 graduates have no debt probably due to family money and scholarships to a lesser extent

 

[Roto Picante]

Well getting into dental school is mostly grades. There are plenty of people smarter than me that make a lot less money, and more than a few people have mentioned that the hand skills mostly take practice. Anyone can practice if they enjoy something.

Is it really so easy to make 6 figs nowadays that any dental student could consistently do it until retirement if they never went to dental school? I don't think this is a fair assessment.

I'm not saying I can't make it for myself and be well off, but the chances to fail are a lot higher than dentistry. It's also going to give a lot more flexibility than most jobs that pay the same amount of money.

NavyBlueSuit, you are on a forum where someone asked how feasible it is to pay off, arguing with several dentists who have done it. Do you want the truth or not? Or do you want us to pat you on the back and give you some false sense of security about how student debt surely can't ruin you? I agree with Big Hoss, if it were easy, this forum wouldn't be so one sided. If I am not mistaken, a lot of the individuals in this discussion are even former military and had their school paid for..... and they still think its crazy. But no one seems to think that is a good idea any more.

 

[NavyBlueSuit]

NavyBlueSuit, you are on a forum where someone asked how feasible it is to pay off, arguing with several dentists who have done it. Do you want the truth or not? Or do you want us to pat you on the back and give you some false sense of security about how student debt surely can't ruin you? I agree with Big Hoss, if it were easy, this forum wouldn't be so one sided. If I am not mistaken, a lot of the individuals in this discussion are even former military and had their school paid for..... and they still think its crazy. But no one seems to think that is a good idea any more.

It's a discussion so we don't have to agree. Most threads on sdn are pretty one sided, so I just wanted to bring up different perspectives that I don't really see discussed.

Sdn loves to focus on extremes. The average dental student comes out of school with about 301k in student loan debt. Should be 3500 a month for 10 years unless you refinance. Doesn't seem like an impossible amount compared to take home, especially if you focus on maximizing potential. I look forward to reassessing when I'm on the other side.

Considering how much graduates get villified for just going to dental school, it's not surprising they don't want to come back to the forum once they are out.

I will say a better suggestion than IT and software jobs seems to be law. Corporate paper pushers can get paid pretty handsomely from the jump at low overhead. Hours might suck though.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

Most threads on sdn are pretty one sided

Maybe there's a reason for that, don't you think?

I look forward to reassessing when I'm on the other side.

The people who you seem to be disagreeing with on this thread are already on the other side...

Considering how much graduates get villified for just going to dental school, it's not surprising they don't want to come back to the forum once they are out.

Disagree with this take. I think most people created accounts on SDN for pre-dental help, and then when they got into school they just didn't care anymore to post on SDN, or they got the advice they wanted, or both, and they never came back. If some harsh truths about the future of dentistry and financial issues with paying for it cause you to feel vilified, perhaps I suggest you get some thicker skin? I'm a pre-dent myself and I have only felt grateful for the advice I've received since I've made an account. But then again, I probably act like I know what I'm talking about in regards to thick skin because I actually have life experience after college and have worked with patients for many years, but who knows.

 

[Cold Front]

I wonder why that is. Maybe because things are starting to fall off a cliff?

I have said this before, and I will say it again. It is very telling that there are literally no fresh graduates with $500,000 or more in student loans coming on SDN saying that it's no problem at all to manage that. Think about that for a second. That should be setting off alarm bells for you.

Big Hoss

Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. Despite all the evidence in front of a pre-dent to approach dentistry cautiously, they would still struggle with the facts. They can’t control their fear of missing out, and why would they, it’s the feeling of destiny to become a dentist that is pushing them to choose.

They can’t wrap their head around any advise that would tell them to reconsider taking out big debt. All that is offered on this thread is the truth about the profession, and it’s the kind of truth a pre-dent will not hear it in depth anywhere else.. not even on social media.

Sooner or later, there is a difference for a pre-dent thinking of knowing the path and walking the path. They can believe whatever they want about dentistry, but in the end, it would be equivalent to a $600k bet to confirm that they are right and all the cautionary tales they received here before dental school were wrong. Most don’t come out on the other side with big debt sharing their stories on SDN anyways.

 

[charlestweed]

The time it takes for a dentist to pay off his loan debt depends on a lot of factors: the debt amount, his income, his work ethic, his spending habit, marital status (single vs married with kids vs divorced and pos-divorce payments) etc.

A dentist can easily pay off a $600k debt in less than 10 years if he works hard (and makes at least $200-250k by working 6 days/wk) and lives within his means for the first couple of years after graduation. If all medical residents can do that for at least 3 years, why can’t the new grad dentists do the same? I know plenty of dentists who owed many times more than this $600k amount (if you also include the home + business + car loans) and became debt-free way before their 50th birthday. Most of these dentists are practicing here in CA where there is at least one dental office at every street corner…..and they have to charge lower fees (and accept medicaid) in order to survive. Many of them still work on Saturdays despite being debtfree. My sisters, my wife and all of her USC dental classmates that I know are among these successful dentists.

To make money in dentistry, you have to sit down and perform the procedures yourself. Your assistants can’t do them for you, unless you’re an orthodontist. The more days you work and the more patients you treat, the more money you will make. It’s that simple. Seeing high patient volume also helps you gain more experience and become a more competent dentist. To make money in dentistry, you have to be a hard working competent dentist…..can’t be a lazy sloppy dentist. Being an owner dentist, you have to have much better clinical skills than your associate so you can readily bail him/her out. It’s your practice and you have to protect your reputation. I haven’t yet met a successful dentist who is slow and lazy.

So if you think working more than 4 days/wk is not something you are willing to do, then don’t go into dentistry with $600k debt....or even with a third of that debt amount. But if you work very hard, you will eventually become debtfree and will be abe to work 4 or less days. You are not supposed to be on vacation when you’re in debt (I borrowed this line from Dave Ramsey). IBR may be a good way to use at the beginning to help get a new grad to get adjusted to the new life after dental school. But it should not be used long term to pay off debt and then have to face a tax bomb afterward. When you only have to pay back a little amount (that doesn’t even cover the interest of the loan) every month, you fail to recognize that you have a debt problem….and thus, you are less motivated to work hard. A highly motivated dentist who works hard to pay off debts should be many times more successful than a lazy umotivated dentist who has rich parents who help pay for everything.

 

[charlestweed]

Have you guys been on the other side? I mean truly struggling to make ends meet in a crap house, barely putting food on the table, and one major expense(<5K) could take so many resources from you that you start getting things repossessed? Life could be much worse than a 4 day work week. You could work 7 days and pay half of your take home income towards renting a crap apartment.

I’ve usually used the struggling stories of many college grads that my kids know (my son’s HS jazz band teacher, my son’s tennis coach, the music director at our church, the cousin who has a PhD in psychology etc) to convince my kids to pursue a safer more stable profession like dentistry or medicine. Many of my assistants are working 6-7 days/wk (full time at corp office and weekends at my private office) and they are living paycheck to paycheck. One of them is in his mid 30s and is trying to pay off all of his credit card debts….good for him

Maybe the lavishness of dentistry is gone but you cannot tell me it's as bad as the average worker's situation.

That’s right. It’s a great profession.

 

[Cold Front]

I find it interesting that some posters use average worker to make dentistry look good. Yes, average worker makes less and has lower quality of life. But the effort to have a good quality life in dentistry is increasing very fast due to high student debt, declining income due to high inflation and declining reimbursement rates. It’s like signing up for 100 meters track and field race and being told to run another 1,000 meters at the finish line to complete the race. Imagine you didn’t train for 1,000 meters… it will be a very painful experience mentally and physically. That’s the environment dentistry is in for many dentists now. You don’t believe me? Ask how hard younger dentists are hustling today compared to 10 years ago, specially those who own a practice. It’s the big assumptions that usually gets people in trouble.

 

[oqlwho]

I find it interesting that some posters use average worker to make dentistry look good. Yes, average worker makes less and has lower quality of life. But the effort to have a good quality life in dentistry is increasing very fast due to high student debt, declining income due to high inflation and declining reimbursement rates. It’s like signing up for 100 meters track and field race and being told to run another 1,000 meters at the finish line to complete the race. Imagine you didn’t train for 1,000 meters… it will be a very painful experience mentally and physically. That’s the environment dentistry is in for many dentists now. You don’t believe me? Ask how hard younger dentists are hustling today compared to 10 years ago, specially those who own a practice. It’s the big assumptions that usually gets people in trouble.

Older dentists working 90 hours/week are working about as hard as the younger dentists working 90 hours/week.

You should compare how "hard" older dentists working <40 hours/week had it vs. younger dentists today working <40 hours/week to get a better representation of how lazy you can be with the same QoL.

 

[Cold Front]

Older dentists working 90 hours/week are working about as hard as the younger dentists working 90 hours/week.

You should compare how "hard" older dentists working week had it vs. younger dentists today working week to get a better representation of how lazy you can be with the same QoL.

Yes and no. For starters, older dentists have less debt in life today simply because their generation carried less student loans, mortgages and other debt that majority of them paid off by now. Unfortunately, older dentists retirement accounts are worth less now due to the current economic climate… so they will have to delay retirement and work harder now. Different generational hustles for different reasons.

 

[norfleet1131]

Yes and no. For starters, older dentists have less debt in life today simply because their generation carried less student loans, mortgages and other debt that majority of them paid off by now. Unfortunately, older dentists retirement accounts are worth less now due to the current economic climate… so they will have to delay retirement and work harder now. Different generational hustles for different reasons.

This is the best way I have seen someone put it. I appreciate this perspective!

 

[charlestweed]

Unfortunately, older dentists retirement accounts are worth less now due to the current economic climate… so they will have to delay retirement and work harder now.

That’s why many of the dentists my age and I still have to work hard (more than 4 days/wk) despite having zero debt. I remember last year, you asked me why I still "fire on all cylinders" when I am debt-free? Being at 50 and having seen a lot of events in my life (recessions, wars, covid, housing market crashes, increase in government spendings which has lead to increase in national debt level etc), I expect things like food, kids’ college tuitions, car prices, taxes etc will go up a lot more than what they are right now. Therefore, my wife and I have to make sure we save for our retirement…..when our income goes from several hundred K’s per year down to zero. In the past, having a net worth of $5 million may have been enough for a person to have a worry-free retirement. In order for me to maintain the same comfortable lifestyle that I currently have, I need to save a lot more before I can close up shop and retire….. $7-8 millions is a safer amount.

Not too long ago, if one made $45-50k, he was considered a middle class. 30+ years ago, my parents raised 3 of us with their combined income of less than $20k/year. Now, if you only made $45-50k/year, you are considered to be poor. The minimum wage in CA is $14/hour or around $30k/year. Inflation is the main culprit.

If a dentist only makes $120k/year and continues to make this same amount for the rest of his life, he’s obviously not trying. Most dentists make more as they gain more experience. Like this one here... AMA: Graduated 2021, did a GPR, now working with $200k/year minimum 4 days per week in private practice in a mid-size city.

 

[2TH MVR]

I need to save a lot more before I can close up shop and retire….. $7-8 millions is a safer amount.

Holy ****. I need to start saving more money. Gonna start today. Right now. No time to waste. Can't procrastinate.

I'll start right after I buy the new 37 inch tall tires for my Jeep ($2500). OK. Going to need a new winch ($1500). Wait a minute. I promise to start saving right after I do the maintenance on my Alfa Romeo (Carbon fiber chassis bolt tightening, timing belt change, idler wheel change, water pump replacement, timing belt replacement, oil change, etc). ($5500-6000).

OK. I'm ready to save. Well. The house needs painting. That will be around $6000. It's time for a new roof. That will be around $25-30,000. Bathroom remodel around $30,000. My pool needs maintenance. Another $10,000.

My oldest daughter has decided to go back to college (1 year to complete a different degree). That's another $25,000.

The wife needed her boobs redone. That's another $12,000.

I haven't even started with all the normal, daily expenses. Food. Utilites. Etc. ETc. Etc.

SAVING is tough. I am debt free and I have a tough time saving money. I know. Most of this is self inflicted. But. YOLO.

Point is. I can't imagine owing dental school debt into my 40's and trying to live life.

Hey. @charlestweed . Years from now when I am down on my luck. Spent all my money. Sitting on a street corner. Can you part with a few bucks from your 7-8 million so I can buy some Ramen? 😀

 

[Rvting]

OK. I'm ready to save. Well. The house needs painting. That will be around $6000. It's time for a new roof. That will be around $25-30,000. Bathroom remodel around $30,000. My pool needs maintenance. Another $10,000.

To be fair, real estate/land ownership is generally a great investment

 

[Cold Front]

I remember last year, you asked me why I still "fire on all cylinders" when I am debt-free? Being at 50 and having seen a lot of events in my life (recessions, wars, covid, housing market crashes, increase in government spendings which has lead to increase in national debt level etc), I expect things like food, kids’ college tuitions, car prices, taxes etc will go up a lot more than what they are right now. Therefore, my wife and I have to make sure we save for our retirement…..when our income goes from several hundred K’s per year down to zero. In the past, having a net worth of $5 million may have been enough for a person to have a worry-free retirement. In order for me to maintain the same comfortable lifestyle that I currently have, I need to save a lot more before I can close up shop and retire….. $7-8 millions is a safer amount.

If a dentist with no debt is worried about their financial future, imagine poor new grads with big student loans who will make 200k on average (which actually feels like 130-140k today compared to when I graduated in 2010) and with declining purchasing power next few years… will feel like 100k in 5 years… yes, I did the maths. Not to scare people, but those are the facts.

 

[charlestweed]

Holy ****. I need to start saving more money. Gonna start today. Right now. No time to waste. Can't procrastinate.

I'll start right after I buy the new 37 inch tall tires for my Jeep ($2500). OK. Going to need a new winch ($1500). Wait a minute. I promise to start saving right after I do the maintenance on my Alfa Romeo (Carbon fiber chassis bolt tightening, timing belt change, idler wheel change, water pump replacement, timing belt replacement, oil change, etc). ($5500-6000).

OK. I'm ready to save. Well. The house needs painting. That will be around $6000. It's time for a new roof. That will be around $25-30,000. Bathroom remodel around $30,000. My pool needs maintenance. Another $10,000.

My oldest daughter has decided to go back to college (1 year to complete a different degree). That's another $25,000.

The wife needed her boobs redone. That's another $12,000.

I haven't even started with all the normal, daily expenses. Food. Utilites. Etc. ETc. Etc.

SAVING is tough. I am debt free and I have a tough time saving money. I know. Most of this is self inflicted. But. YOLO.

Point is. I can't imagine owing dental school debt into my 40's and trying to live life.

Hey. @charlestweed . Years from now when I am down on my luck. Spent all my money. Sitting on a street corner. Can you part with a few bucks from your 7-8 million so I can buy some Ramen? 😀

Saving is indeed very tough. As you pointed out, there are a lot of unexpected things in life (children’s college tuitions that exceed the saved amount, a major house repair, a new car, new expense for taking care of the parents who become very ill, wedding gift for the children etc) that require money….a lot of money. That’s why I continue to work hard to make sure I save enough. I’d rather deal with the work-related stress than the debt-related stress and other financial stresses. Because YOLO, I don’t want to wait until I am in my 60s-70s to drive those German flagship cars…..I want to get them now and enjoy them now. And in order to earn all these nice rewards, gotta work hard. Nothing in life is easy.

 

[charlestweed]

To be fair, real estate/land ownership is generally a great investment

Yeah, you can’t go wrong with real estate investments. But to acquire a property, you’ll need a lot of money….at least 20-30% for a down payment. You need to have a safe job with stable income so you can pay the mortgage every month in case the tenants stop paying you or move out. It can only be a nice passive income when you pay off the mortgage and are debt free. Here is what Dave said about this type of investment.
Edit: I've just paid $900 in lawyer fee to evict a tenant.... $700 to get rid of his stuff.....another $5000 to repair all the broken doors and windows. The tenant hasn't paid rent for a whole year. I couldn't evict him because he applied for Covid rent payment relief program. The program approved his application and mistakenly sent a $17k check to him😢.....instead of me, his landlord. The good thing is I don't have any debt on this property. Another good thing is I get a new tenant, who will pay me $500 more per month than the previous tenant. Rents have increased a lot in the last couple of months due to inrease in interest rate, which prevents people from buying houses.

 

[charlestweed]

If a dentist with no debt is worried about their financial future, imagine poor new grads with big student loans who will make 200k on average (which actually feels like 130-140k today compared to when I graduated in 2010) and with declining purchasing power next few years… will feel like 100k in 5 years… yes, I did the maths. Not to scare people, but those are the facts.

These scary facts apply to all young people, not just to the young dentists. The younger generation will have to work harder and longer hours than their parents and their grandparents because of the decline in purchasing power, higher student loan debts, higher tax rate (due to higher national debt) etc. Regardless of what profession one chooses, working 4 days/week is not enough.

I continue to work full time and worry about my financial future because I don’t want to lose the nice lifestyle (that I currently enjoy) when I retire....when my earning is $0. I don’t want my kids to take out any loan if they get accepted to either med school or dental school 4-5 years from now. As someone mentioned earlier, today and future grad dentists may not have the same lavish lifestyle that older dentists like you, 2THMVR and I have right now but they will still be in much better financial shape than most average workers….than someone who has a degree in History and owes $100-150k in student loan. These young dentists can still have a decent lifestyle if they are ok with driving an average $40-50k car, having an average size 2500-2600 sf house outside of CA and NY, putting their kids in public middle/high schools, and letting their kids taking out student loans, instead of saving for them etc.

If a dentist, who starts working at 26-27 yo, cannot have a total gross earning of at least $2.5-3 millions by the time he reaches his 40th birthday, there must be something wrong with his clinical skills and/or his work ethic. With good budgeting discipline, he should be done (or almost done) with paying back his student loan debt by that age.

 

[Cold Front]

As someone mentioned earlier, today and future grad dentists may not have the same lavish lifestyle that older dentists like you, 2THMVR and I have right now….

These young dentists can still have a decent lifestyle if they are ok with driving an average $40-50k car, having an average size 2500-2600 sf house outside of CA and NY, putting their kids in public middle/high schools, and letting their kids taking out student loans, instead of saving for them etc.

We are in agreement that future dentists will have much lower standards than practicing dentists today. Even though future dentists are getting into dentistry today to have same lifestyle as today’s practicing dentists. Essentially, this is known as FALSE EXPECTATIONS from someone who is considering dentistry today.

We are also in agreement that most future young dentists with high student loans can still have roof over their head and lead a normal financial life, IF they stay away from big urban/metro areas and raise their kids in a very modest lifestyle, until their kids can borrow a lot of debt on their own to become a dentist one day like their parents. This pretty much doubles down on a generational debt cycle. I can’t see this being a good expectation for future dentists either.

Both scenarios come with good intentions, but at best would only apply to future dentists with small or no student debt.

 

[Cold Front]

To be fair, real estate/land ownership is generally a great investment

It depends. The best real estate situation is owner occupancy real estate. Like owning the roof of your practice. The other type of real estate ownership requires far more planning (finding the right tenant) and timing the market (buying opportunity at a bottom of the market).

I own real estate in both examples.

Owning a land is typically a cash deal. No bank will be interested in financing structureless deal. Considered too risky by lenders.

 

[charlestweed]

We are in agreement that future dentists will have much lower standards than practicing dentists today. Even though future dentists are getting into dentistry today to have same lifestyle as today’s practicing dentists. Essentially, this is known as FALSE EXPECTATIONS from someone who is considering dentistry today.

We are also in agreement that most future young dentists with high student loans can still have roof over their head and lead a normal financial life, IF they stay away from big urban/metro areas and raise their kids in a very modest lifestyle, until their kids can borrow a lot of debt on their own to become a dentist one day like their parents. This pretty much doubles down on a generational debt cycle. I can’t see this being a good expectation for future dentists either.

Both scenarios come with good intentions, but at best would only apply to future dentists with small or no student debt.

Yeah, I feel really bad for the future generation...for kids who are at my children’s age. They will have to work a lot harder and longer hours. It will take longer for them to be able to afford to buy their first house. A 20% down payment for a $1 million dollar house, which is just gonna be a small old one-story 1500-1600sf house here in Orange County, CA, is $200k. Saving $200k is not easy. For a person, who has an annual income of $150-200k/year, to come up with this $200k saving amount for a down payment on a house, it will take him/her at least 5 years.

A lot of young people here on this forum may have thought that I sounded arrogant when I said on a few of my past posts that making $180-200k/year is actually not that much, especially if a person has 1-2 kids to support. I think they will see what I meant when they actually start working and writing checks to pay bills.

 

[Rvting]

We are also in agreement that most future young dentists with high student loans can still have roof over their head and lead a normal financial life, IF they stay away from big urban/metro areas and raise their kids in a very modest lifestyle,

Your terms are acceptable. lmao

I really don't prefer the depressing, big city lifestyle

 

[Cold Front]

Yeah, I feel really bad for the future generation...for kids who are at my children’s age. They will have to work a lot harder and longer hours. It will take longer for them to be able to afford to buy their first house. A 20% down payment for a $1 million dollar house, which is just gonna be a small old one-story 1500-1600sf house here in Orange County, CA, is $200k. Saving $200k is not easy. For a person, who has an annual income of $150-200k/year, to come up with this $200k saving amount for a down payment on a house, it will take him/her at least 5 years.

A lot of young people here on this forum may have thought that I sounded arrogant when I said on a few of my past posts that making $180-200k/year is actually not that much, especially if a person has 1-2 kids to support. I think they will see what I meant when they actually start working and writing checks to pay bills.

Absolutely. I think there is a good chance your kids will delay having their own kids, at least beyond the age when you had them, mainly for financial reasons. Kids are getting expensive every year. Dual income couple with no kids is becoming very popular, and a driving factor of declining birth rates. Finances change attitudes and big life decisions. Society is no longer pushing the “have kids at all cost” narrative, it’s all about building your career and finances first. Dental school cost is definitely pushing the pendulum in that direction.

 

[charlestweed]

Absolutely. I think there is a good chance your kids will delay having their own kids, at least beyond the age when you had them, mainly for financial reasons. Kids are getting expensive every year. Dual income couple with no kids is becoming very popular, and a driving factor of declining birth rates. Finances change attitudes and big life decisions. Society is no longer pushing the “have kids at all cost” narrative, it’s all about building your career and finances first.

Hopefully, these kid’s parents will give them something when they pass away. Even my low income parents, who had a combined income of less than $20k/year, were able to give us something. When my mom passed away a few months ago, my dad decided to sell the house, which they purchased in 1989 for $134k, and moved in to live with my sister. My dad sold it for $ 875k and he gave everything to my 2 siblings and me.

My wife’s boss got his DDS from LLU, an expensive private dental school. In addition to the school loans, he also took out $700k loan to buy an existing practice. When his parents retired, they helped him pay off all of his loans. This was a big surprised gift. He didn’t know his parents had that much money. Two years ago, he purchased his own building (paid in full) nearby and moved his practice there.

Dental school cost is definitely pushing the pendulum in that direction.

There’s no argument that the cost for obtaining a DDS/DMD degree is a lot higher than for other college degrees but the ROI for dentistry is much better. That’s why many people quit their jobs and went back to school to pursue dentistry. These non-traditional students were not stupid when they went back to school (and took out some loans) for dentistry…..they had worked in the real world for a while and had a lot of life experience. I’d rather be a dentist with $600k debt than having a music degree with zero debt.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

There’s no argument that the cost for obtaining a DDS/DMD degree is a lot higher than for other college degrees but the ROI for dentistry is much better. That’s why many people quit their jobs and went back to school to pursue dentistry. These non-traditional students were not stupid when they went back to school (and took out some loans) for dentistry…..they had worked in the real world for a while and had a lot of life experience.

Preach, brother. I work in healthcare, which I believe to be somewhat recession-proof, and I'm currently going back to school to pursue dentistry. I feel I've got two things going for me: 1) life experience, which you can't put a price on and vastly improves your outlook on life and gives you so many (mental) tools on how to deal with hurdles (I'm sure Cold Front can relate to this, because I think he was a non-trad too); and 2) my VA benefits. Unlike HPSP, these are mine to use however I wish (or don't wish) to use. I don't owe anyone anything if I use them or have to deal with any "payback". If I play my cards right, I should be able to graduate with no debt (but I'm planning on having a debt of around $50k, to be safe). $50k is a lot of money, relatively speaking, but for debt after dental school? That's chump change. My car cost me more than that, and I make less than what a typical associate makes in a major city (live within your means and all that).

A lot of dentists will tell us to try for NHSC or HPSP as a way to pay for dental school. Nah, fam. As Yoda once said, there is another (way). Military FIRST, and then use VA benefits (as long as you stick to only public schools).

Hopefully it all works out and I get interviews.

 

[somefuturedoc]

A lot of dentists will tell us to try for NHSC or HPSP as a way to pay for dental school. Nah, fam. As Yoda once said, there is another (way). Military FIRST, and then use VA benefits (as long as you stick to only public schools).

If you want to go straight from college, HPSP is objectively a better deal though. Full ride to any school, service commitment fulfilled actually practicing in your career, and overall higher lifetime earnings.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

If you want to go straight from college, HPSP is objectively a better deal though. Full ride to any school, service commitment fulfilled actually practicing in your career, and overall higher lifetime earnings.

Have you actually done HPSP? Because I worked alongside physicians and dentists who had. Sure, there was some "grass is greener on the other side" stuff going on, but almost all of them lamented HPSP. So when you say you actually practice in your career field, I chuckle. You will probably do a portion of what you learned in your medical residency or dental school whilst your colleagues in the civilian world are getting their reps in in one year at a DSO. I had a dentist tell me she gets worse and worse, skills wise, every day she was in the military. I can't speak to Big Hoss's or FutureDent020's experience while they were in, but everyone I knew absolutely lambasted the collaterals they had to undertake and fitreps they had to write, the unbelievable amount of bureaucracy, and so forth. Either they were itching to get out and undergo their own residency path (ortho, peds, etc), or they were only staying in to get into OMFS. The physicians were the same way: only staying in to get into their fellowship of choice.

I never got the impression that they were "satisfied" with the level and amount of skills they were able to do while they were in.

 

[somefuturedoc]

Have you actually done HPSP? Because I worked alongside physicians and dentists who had. Sure, there was some "grass is greener on the other side" stuff going on, but almost all of them lamented HPSP. So when you say you actually practice in your career field, I chuckle. You will probably do a portion of what you learned in your medical residency or dental school whilst your colleagues in the civilian world are getting their reps in in one year at a DSO. I had a dentist tell me she gets worse and worse, skills wise, every day she was in the military. I can't speak to Big Hoss's or FutureDent020's experience while they were in, but everyone I knew absolutely lambasted the collaterals they had to undertake and fitreps they had to write, the unbelievable amount of bureaucracy, and so forth. Either they were itching to get out and undergo their own residency path (ortho, peds, etc), or they were only staying in to get into OMFS. The physicians were the same way: only staying in to get into their fellowship of choice.

I never got the impression that they were "satisfied" with the level and amount of skills they were able to do while they were in.

That’s an interesting take.

Pretty much everyone I know currently serving or already separated has agreed there’s a lot of bureaucratic BS but has been thankful for their experience and recommends it. My payback begins soon-ish. We’ll see if my opinion changes. Just interesting to see someone playing contrarian to such a good deal.

 

[charlestweed]

Have you actually done HPSP? Because I worked alongside physicians and dentists who had. Sure, there was some "grass is greener on the other side" stuff going on, but almost all of them lamented HPSP. So when you say you actually practice in your career field, I chuckle. You will probably do a portion of what you learned in your medical residency or dental school whilst your colleagues in the civilian world are getting their reps in in one year at a DSO. I had a dentist tell me she gets worse and worse, skills wise, every day she was in the military. I can't speak to Big Hoss's or FutureDent020's experience while they were in, but everyone I knew absolutely lambasted the collaterals they had to undertake and fitreps they had to write, the unbelievable amount of bureaucracy, and so forth. Either they were itching to get out and undergo their own residency path (ortho, peds, etc), or they were only staying in to get into OMFS. The physicians were the same way: only staying in to get into their fellowship of choice.

I never got the impression that they were "satisfied" with the level and amount of skills they were able to do while they were in.

Nothing is easy. Life is a series of trade-offs. You have to give up something in order to gain something. In order to get your dental education 100% paid for, you have to go where the military wants you to serve for a certain number of years after graduation….or by working at a government health clinic at a remote area, where no one wants to live, for 10 years. If you want to have more flexibity to do whatever you like after graduation, then you have to take out loans and be prepared to work 5+ days/wk to pay them back. Many new grad dentists are near the age of getting married and starting a family. Going to rural area or serving the militatry may make it harder for them to meet people (their future spouse).

There’s no such thing as getting rich quick, unless you get lucky or do something that is illegal/unethical. And if you get lucky, the money will only come once and you will likely spend it all. You tend to appreciate the value of your hard earned $$$ more when it is from your own effort. Most of the successful dentists I know are persistent people….they never quit working. Dentistry is just a job. Having a DDS degree doesn't necessarily guarantee you a 6 figure income. You have to work.

 

[charlestweed]

Preach, brother. I work in healthcare, which I believe to be somewhat recession-proof, and I'm currently going back to school to pursue dentistry. I feel I've got two things going for me: 1) life experience, which you can't put a price on and vastly improves your outlook on life and gives you so many (mental) tools on how to deal with hurdles (I'm sure Cold Front can relate to this, because I think he was a non-trad too); and 2) my VA benefits. Unlike HPSP, these are mine to use however I wish (or don't wish) to use. I don't owe anyone anything if I use them or have to deal with any "payback". If I play my cards right, I should be able to graduate with no debt (but I'm planning on having a debt of around $50k, to be safe). $50k is a lot of money, relatively speaking, but for debt after dental school? That's chump change. My car cost me more than that, and I make less than what a typical associate makes in a major city (live within your means and all that).

A lot of dentists will tell us to try for NHSC or HPSP as a way to pay for dental school. Nah, fam. As Yoda once said, there is another (way). Military FIRST, and then use VA benefits (as long as you stick to only public schools).

Hopefully it all works out and I get interviews.

Good luck with your application and I hope you'll get in.

 

[Roto Picante]

Have you actually done HPSP? Because I worked alongside physicians and dentists who had. Sure, there was some "grass is greener on the other side" stuff going on, but almost all of them lamented HPSP. So when you say you actually practice in your career field, I chuckle. You will probably do a portion of what you learned in your medical residency or dental school whilst your colleagues in the civilian world are getting their reps in in one year at a DSO. I had a dentist tell me she gets worse and worse, skills wise, every day she was in the military. I can't speak to Big Hoss's or FutureDent020's experience while they were in, but everyone I knew absolutely lambasted the collaterals they had to undertake and fitreps they had to write, the unbelievable amount of bureaucracy, and so forth. Either they were itching to get out and undergo their own residency path (ortho, peds, etc), or they were only staying in to get into OMFS. The physicians were the same way: only staying in to get into their fellowship of choice.

I never got the impression that they were "satisfied" with the level and amount of skills they were able to do while they were in.

All of the value of the HPSP is in the first 3-5 years. As time went on, and especially after my initial payback was up, I felt more and more used and abused by the system. I was putting in way more than I was getting out of the relationship.

That being said, I am glad I did it. Travelled the world, found our forever home, and have no debt. But definitely glad I got out.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

That’s an interesting take.

Pretty much everyone I know currently serving or already separated has agreed there’s a lot of bureaucratic BS but has been thankful for their experience and recommends it. My payback begins soon-ish. We’ll see if my opinion changes. Just interesting to see someone playing contrarian to such a good deal.

Objectively speaking, it is financially good. That's not what I'm trying to argue against, per se. It's just that other than paying off your debt (a BIG plus, I will admit), I can't objectively say that there is more merit to HPSP. Sure, I was glad I served. Others on this forum were too, and I'm sure you will be as well. My point I was trying to come across was that, clinically speaking, it left much, much to be desired.

If you go through dental school and secretly hate it and regret it completely, after serving a few years in the military and making rank, you will be set to not do much chair-side work at all. So I guess that's a pro...

All of the value of the HPSP is in the first 3-5 years. As time went on, and especially after my initial payback was up, I felt more and more used and abused by the system. I was putting in way more than I was getting out of the relationship.

That being said, I am glad I did it. Travelled the world, found our forever home, and have no debt. But definitely glad I got out.

People who do HPSP are like women who got pregnant and had a hard time with pregnancy. During their pregnancy, they felt very nauseous and couldn't keep anything down. They are feeling sick and miserable on a daily basis. This is like the surgeon who did HPSP and is dismayed at their skill atrophy working at an OCONUS command. Daily they will complain about the things they have to deal with. From the dentists who I served alongside with, they would agree to this as well. After the crappy pregnancy, the woman will give birth to a blessing, and will be very content to have gotten pregnant to begin with; after a while, she will forget all the nights she spent praying over the porcelain god (aka puking her guts out into the toilet). Eventually she will think that getting pregnant wasn't too bad, that she could, and should, do it again. This is akin to the dentist who did HPSP, gets out after their obligation, and looks at their loan balance of 0 whilst their colleagues from school still carry substantial debt; they will soon start to forget how unhappy they really were while they were in. They will then go onto SDN and say "HPSP is a smart way to pay for dental school", without putting a single asterisk on that statement explaining the nitty gritty BS of military life.

I am glad I served. I didn't do it for financial reasons. I just wanted to do my current job in the military. I got to travel and unsuccessfully pursue women. Life was great, in a sense. But I would rather have all my teeth pulled out under no anesthesia then ever do HPSP, knowing what I know now. I'll let the VA chip in instead for my schooling, thanks. I have a colleague from my service who also wants to go dental and who also feels the same way about this as I do.

 

[Roto Picante]

Objectively speaking, it is financially good. That's not what I'm trying to argue against, per se. It's just that other than paying off your debt (a BIG plus, I will admit), I can't objectively say that there is more merit to HPSP. Sure, I was glad I served. Others on this forum were too, and I'm sure you will be as well. My point I was trying to come across was that, clinically speaking, it left much, much to be desired.

If you go through dental school and secretly hate it and regret it completely, after serving a few years in the military and making rank, you will be set to not do much chair-side work at all. So I guess that's a pro...


People who do HPSP are like women who got pregnant and had a hard time with pregnancy. During their pregnancy, they felt very nauseous and couldn't keep anything down. They are feeling sick and miserable on a daily basis. This is like the surgeon who did HPSP and is dismayed at their skill atrophy working at an OCONUS command. Daily they will complain about the things they have to deal with. From the dentists who I served alongside with, they would agree to this as well. After the crappy pregnancy, the woman will give birth to a blessing, and will be very content to have gotten pregnant to begin with; after a while, she will forget all the nights she spent praying over the porcelain god (aka puking her guts out into the toilet). Eventually she will think that getting pregnant wasn't too bad, that she could, and should, do it again. This is akin to the dentist who did HPSP, gets out after their obligation, and looks at their loan balance of 0 whilst their colleagues from school still carry substantial debt; they will soon start to forget how unhappy they really were while they were in. They will then go onto SDN and say "HPSP is a smart way to pay for dental school", without putting a single asterisk on that statement explaining the nitty gritty BS of military life.

I am glad I served. I didn't do it for financial reasons. I just wanted to do my current job in the military. I got to travel and unsuccessfully pursue women. Life was great, in a sense. But I would rather have all my teeth pulled out under no anesthesia then ever do HPSP, knowing what I know now. I'll let the VA chip in instead for my schooling, thanks. I have a colleague from my service who also wants to go dental and who also feels the same way about this as I do.

I think we are saying the same things here. I qualified that it sucked in a lot of ways. It worked out in the long run for me... but it definitely isn't for everyone. At the same time, I just don't understand the people who say, "Poor me, my school is too expensive, how will I ever pay for it?" But then say, "I would never do military, public health, IHS, or live anywhere other than southern California. It just sounds stupid. Either go to dental school and live with the financial consequences of your choices, or do something else. OR vote in politicians who will just give it to you for free.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

I agree with your sentiments, Roto. Instead of complaining, there should be more "doing something" about it. When I graduated with my professional degree, I could not find a job in my local geographic area. The area was too saturated with schools and was very high paying, so nationally a lot of people from out of state would come to work at the hospitals in the area where I lived. This meant the hospitals could be picky with who to hire, and so chose the cheaper route of getting experienced people. So I moved to ND. There is no shortage of healthcare personnel, only one of distribution, in my opinion. There, the hospitals couldn't get enough people to staff them. I was literally hired because I had a pulse and a professional license.

I went out to a party once, and I was chit-chatting with an OMFS there about where I was from and how I ended up in ND, arguably a place that is on no one's radar. I told him that hospitals where I grew up wanted experienced people, so I relocated to where there was a need. Not a desirable place compared to where I was from, but I had to do something. The OMFS remarked that he was very happy I had done that. He was tired of people complaining about a lack of opportunity in their hometowns, and was glad that I chose to do something about it and move halfway across the country to where I had no family, friends, or social support network, just to get experience in my career. Then I signed up for the Navy...

So yes, if you want to do dental and can only go to an expensive option, but don't want to maximize your potential earnings by going rural or choosing indentured servitude, ahem, excuse me, I meant 'scholarship', then one will have to deal with the consequences of those actions.

 

[customx]

Have you actually done HPSP? Because I worked alongside physicians and dentists who had. Sure, there was some "grass is greener on the other side" stuff going on, but almost all of them lamented HPSP. So when you say you actually practice in your career field, I chuckle. You will probably do a portion of what you learned in your medical residency or dental school whilst your colleagues in the civilian world are getting their reps in in one year at a DSO. I had a dentist tell me she gets worse and worse, skills wise, every day she was in the military. I can't speak to Big Hoss's or FutureDent020's experience while they were in, but everyone I knew absolutely lambasted the collaterals they had to undertake and fitreps they had to write, the unbelievable amount of bureaucracy, and so forth. Either they were itching to get out and undergo their own residency path (ortho, peds, etc), or they were only staying in to get into OMFS. The physicians were the same way: only staying in to get into their fellowship of choice.

I never got the impression that they were "satisfied" with the level and amount of skills they were able to do while they were in.

The decline in skills is a big part of why a lot of people elect to leave the military. There are a lot of other factors as well, but HPSP is still an amazing deal if you're going to a school that's going to set you back $400k+. Not only should you be debt free upon graduating, you will have the opportunity to do an AEGD or specialize and earn 100% of your normal income. If you elect to get out after 3-4 years, you will have very unique experiences to talk about during interviews for civilian residency programs. The GI bill will pay 100% of your tuition costs at a civilian program and you'll collect E5 BAH.

When I add up all the benefits (tuition, fees, books, loupes, stipends, salary, BAH, GI Bill, health insurance), it puts the value at approximately $1.4 million. Not bad for 4 years of service.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

The decline in skills is a big part of why a lot of people elect to leave the military. There are a lot of other factors as well, but HPSP is still an amazing deal if you're going to a school that's going to set you back $400k+. Not only should you be debt free upon graduating, you will have the opportunity to do an AEGD or specialize and earn 100% of your normal income. If you elect to get out after 3-4 years, you will have very unique experiences to talk about during interviews for civilian residency programs. The GI bill will pay 100% of your tuition costs at a civilian program and you'll collect E5 BAH.

When I add up all the benefits (tuition, fees, books, loupes, stipends, salary, BAH, GI Bill, health insurance), it puts the value at approximately $1.4 million. Not bad for 4 years of service.

That's nice.

I already stated that I agree with the first two sentences. The rest of it...well, you'd make an excellent recruiter for the health professions.

 

[customx]

That's nice.

I already stated that I agree with the first two sentences. The rest of it...well, you'd make an excellent recruiter for the health professions.

😂 I would, but even all those benefits aren't enough to keep me in.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

😂 I would, but even all those benefits aren't enough to keep me in.

Well, the military's solution to these kinds of retention issues is to just throw more money at the problem, instead of just trying to fix the issues themselves. And looking at their numbers, it's not working for retention. Recruiting, at least for healthcare, doesn't appear to be an issue. So in that regard they're set for their readiness goals, and therefore do not have much incentive to change.

 

[DS2027]

All of the value of the HPSP is in the first 3-5 years. As time went on, and especially after my initial payback was up, I felt more and more used and abused by the system. I was putting in way more than I was getting out of the relationship.

That being said, I am glad I did it. Travelled the world, found our forever home, and have no debt. But definitely glad I got out.

You said you were putting in way more than you were getting out, do you not think the dental school debt you had payed off was worth the time in the military?

 

[Roto Picante]

You said you were putting in way more than you were getting out, do you not think the dental school debt you had payed off was worth the time in the military?

When you are doing your prescribed payback time, the scales are balanced. When you aren't paying back the time, the financial benefit goes away. So prior to year 5, yes it was worth it. After, definitely not worth it in my case.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

Adding to what Roto said above, they will tell you that the Navy (or any branch, but I say Navy because that was me) will use you, so you should use them as much as possible. Once the payback is finished, you won't be using them for much unless you plan on specializing. Otherwise, they will use (and abuse, if you want to go there) you as much as they can, so it doesn't make much sense in staying in.

 

[DS2027]

When you are doing your prescribed payback time, the scales are balanced. When you aren't paying back the time, the financial benefit goes away. So prior to year 5, yes it was worth it. After, definitely not worth it in my case.

So just do the minimum and get out? I really don’t want to even go into the military so I don’t see why I would stay longer. However, I have been considering it, it would be nice to be debt free.

 

[LFA20]

Just to add what other military/ex-military docs have said here: I am navy and my experience maybe different than those in other branch of service.

The type of dentistry you do will highly depend on your duty station and chain of command. In general its' fillings/build-ups/crowns, some pulpectomies/endos, extractions(thirds or non-thirds). It will also depend on how proactive you are and if you just want to refer all the extraction/endo then that would not be a problem. And yes, I agree that you will be doing some non-dental/military things and those things are looked at favorably as opposed to being chair-side(I personally rather see patients but this can be good for someone who doesn't really love dentistry).

Financially speaking.. It's a no brainer. However, after you have served your commitment it will mainly depend upon what you value the most(money, family time, etc), your significant other/family situation, and where you want to live. These things will usually determine if you are staying in or getting out.

In general you will be making "more" outside but also be working 3-4x as much to make that amount and I'm pretty sure your expenses will be higher as well.

Military is definitely not for everyone but if it "fits" YOU then it can be awesome(lots of free time, travel, not so busy schedule). I finished my initial obligation of 4 years in August 2022 and met my spouse a year and half before then while being stationed overseas. Decided to extend 3 more years. I also got HSCP(at a cheap state school) and graduated debt-free(with some help from the rents) so the extra years of service really solidified my decision to stay in(at least for now).

And in terms of being overworked/"abused" I personally never felt that way but I guess it depends on your higher-ups or this might just be a subjective matter.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

I really don’t want to even go into the military

This is all subjective, of course, but from my personal experiences, those who did HPSP and had some sort of desire to serve were more disenfranchised with the way the military does things, and how the experience did not line up with their expectations. Once they were out, they were ultimately grateful, if not dismayed during the experience.

However, those who did not desire military service at all and were there only for financial reasons, were some of the most miserable SOB's I worked alongside with. But hey, you will be debt free, I guess.