How many expulsions is normal in a class?

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Piskaupf

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In one medical school of about 110, 10 students being expelled for a mix of academic/professional issues as M2s out of place or excessive?
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Definitely unusually high. I only know of one expulsion in my class from all 4 years.
 
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Seems high but depends on what you’re including in that number exactly. I forget what the attrition rate is for Med school but feel like it was 5% or so, maybe higher in some schools. I think Caribbean schools lose a rather large chunk of the class each year so this would be low for them. So, depending on the school it may or may not be an outlier.

Fairly easy thing to check. Just go back and see how many are admitted each year and how many graduate. Should give you a rough idea and if you average it over a few years it should smooth out any error from PhD or other dual degree students.
 
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Piskaupf said:
In one medical school of about 110, 10 students being expelled for a mix of academic/professional issues as M2s out of place or excessive?
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Geez i thought schools want to see their students graduate and match well, so they don't want to have their students fail at any cost. If all 10 are professionalism issues, that looks very bad.
 
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FalconSlice said:
Yes, that is high. Were they all (or at least a majority) expelled for the same thing/event?
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Different events. Some for not failing exams, some for unprofessional behavior.

unprofessional behavior includes anything such as being tardy, missing a mandatory class. Obviously, many students and faculty are guilty of this but when administrators want to have certain students removed, they can come up with whatever excuse they need. School is 4 years after all and a student is bound to slip up once at least some time.
 
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Piskaupf said:
Different events. Some for not failing exams, some for unprofessional behavior. Ultimately the administration is corrupt, negligent, and malicious. US allo med school.

unprofessional behavior includes anything such as being tardy, missing a mandatory class, or not responding to an email within the mandated 24 hours. Obviously, many students and faculty are guilty of this but when corrupt administrators want to have certain students removed, they can come up with whatever excuse they need. School is 4 years after all and a student is bound to slip up once at least some time.
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Please tell me no one was expelled for not responding to an email in 24 hours.
 
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Piskaupf said:
The school’s MO is to rack up as many counts of these unprofessional behaviors as possible to make their decisions look justified. A “not responding to email” here, a “late to class” there, and you have a problematic student that needs to be dismissed.
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Seems wildly irrational. It's a lot of time and effort to interview and recruit people as well as a lot of tuition money lost from needlessly expelling people.
 
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If all of this is true, you should find a way to make this public so that applicants can avoid the school. They should not get away with doing that to students.

The way "professionalism" is used is so wrong.
 
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Found this from the AAMC:


Sounds like overall attrition of MD only students is 5%. This case seems a smidge higher (9%) but not outside the realm of reason. If it’s a lower tier school it would be reasonable to assume a few more students might fail out along the way.

As for admin going crazy with professionalism issues, I’ve never seen a single case where, once all the facts were known, that it wasn’t immediately obvious the student should have been canned months earlier. Usually it ends up looking like the school let a lot of stuff slide until they just had no more choice.

And yes showing up on time and responding to emails - especially important ones - is a professionalism thing. Even your attendings would get dinged for these things. If I start showing up late to my OR and delaying cases, you don’t think they would suspend my posting privileges in a skinny minute!?
 
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operaman said:
Found this from the AAMC:


Sounds like overall attrition of MD only students is 5%. This case seems a smidge higher (9%) but not outside the realm of reason. If it’s a lower tier school it would be reasonable to assume a few more students might fail out along the way.

As for admin going crazy with professionalism issues, I’ve never seen a single case where, once all the facts were known, that it wasn’t immediately obvious the student should have been canned months earlier. Usually it ends up looking like the school let a lot of stuff slide until they just had no more choice.

And yes showing up on time and responding to emails - especially important ones - is a professionalism thing. Even your attendings would get dinged for these things. If I start showing up late to my OR and delaying cases, you don’t think they would suspend my posting privileges in a skinny minute!?
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The 5% attrition isn’t 5% of the class being expelled for professionalism. Most of that is people dropping out. 9% of the class being expelled for professionalism is high.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
The 5% attrition isn’t 5% of the class being expelled for professionalism. Most of that is people dropping out. 9% of the class being expelled for professionalism is high.
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My school is closer to the OPs mainly has to do with step failures and failures in classes
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
The 5% attrition isn’t 5% of the class being expelled for professionalism. Most of that is people dropping out. 9% of the class being expelled for professionalism is high.
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Yeah OP mentions that some of them were for exam failures and whatnot so I assume he’s lumping them all together.
 
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I was in a class of about 150 at UVA. I don't remember anyone getting expelled. One or two may have left on their own accord (and afaik not one of those 'leave on your own or we will expel you' kind of deals).
 
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Piskaupf said:
In one medical school of about 110, 10 students being expelled for a mix of academic/professional issues as M2s out of place or excessive?
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That's highly abnormal. Med schools typically go out of their way to keep their students.

Is this an American School we're talking about? MD or DO? Attrition is something I expect to be higher at DO schools, usually the newer ones.

I think our worst year we had ~3% of the Class withdraw, and another 2-3% repeat the year. Sometimes you just get a weaker Class than normal, or people with less coping skills.
 
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I think that there is an alternative explanation. See especially posts 18 and 27.

OP, get some help, stat.

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MD - Anybody regret the med school they picked?

As the title says. 3 months in, I just feel like I made the wrong choice for med school. I know its a done deal for the next 4 years but if you've felt this, how did you make it work? I feel like I don't fit in at all, I'm different (can't really elaborate or say the school as it may give up my...
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Lu_Xun said:
If all of this is true, you should find a way to make this public so that applicants can avoid the school. They should not get away with doing that to students.

The way "professionalism" is used is so wrong.
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I'm really starting to think professionalism is exaggerated on SDN and it's really hard to get expelled for that unless it's a clear pattern of horrible behavior. Also faculty usually work with students to make sure they don't fail out, so expelling for academic reasons is very rare.

Now at DO schools? That's a different story especially with my recent discovery in finding how authoritarian some schools are to expel a student over failing a course (even a remediation).
 
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We had 1 person in all 4 years of my class expelled. 10 is crazy high.
 
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I think 2 to 5 % attrition would be about the norm for most schools. Some drop out because it's not for them. My school bends over backwards supplying resources to get students through. Even cheating isn't mandatory expulsion. I caught a student with a cheat sheet during an exam. He was given the chance to repeat the year or leave. Turned into a $50k mistake on his part.Very few academic expulsions. Many times I would work with students and think we are just taking this guys money. Then, things would click and they would graduate. One went on to score 93 rd percentile on COMLEX. I am beginning to think new and for profit med schools are becoming more responsible for situations like this.
 
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Lawpy said:
I'm really starting to think professionalism is exaggerated on SDN and it's really hard to get expelled for that unless it's a clear pattern of horrible behavior. Also faculty usually work with students to make sure they don't fail out, so expelling for academic reasons is very rare.

Now at DO schools? That's a different story especially with my recent discovery in finding how authoritarian some schools are to expel a student over failing a course (even a remediation).
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With that last bit, remember that it's an N =1, and there are always two sides to every story.

And tip of the iceberg phenomenon is very real too. Just look at the dismissal stories in the general residency forum.
 
Where do people even get these numbers?

I mean I know 4 people who had to repeat M1 but that was only because they got pruned from a group chat. No expulsions but then i guess I am living under a rock.

That sounds insanely high in any case.
 
Goro said:
With that last bit, remember that it's an N =1, and there are always two sides to every story.

And tip of the iceberg phenomenon is very real too. Just look at the dismissal stories in the general residency forum.
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You're right. Although that would suck if it turns out OP in the other thread was hiding critical info and the school was in fact being a lot more lenient by offering a withdrawal vs expulsion. But it would fit the theme of the usual expulsion/residency firing threads on SDN :(
 
Piskaupf said:
From counting. Lmfao. Tf kind of question is that.
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So then how do you know the students were expelled instead of chose to drop out or took a leave or something?
 
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Lawpy said:
You're right. Although that would suck if it turns out OP in the other thread was hiding critical info and the school was in fact being a lot more lenient by offering a withdrawal vs expulsion. But it would fit the theme of the usual expulsion/residency firing threads on SDN :(
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If there were 10 rapid fire dismissals my money is on a clandestine cheating ring.
 
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Lets be fair, there is no way you can actually known whether a school is expelling a student. School's don't publicize it so you need to take a look at where these numbers are coming from. If it is matriculation rate that you are looking at, well this is affected when students take gap years. Students take gap years for many reasons including secondary degrees, personal reasons, failing, etc...

In my school, students are rarely expelled. Like you really have to try, and try multiple times to be expelled. I've known students that have gotten into trouble for various reasons from professionalism to drugs and they all made it through. It hurts the schools' statistics, not to mention purse to nothave the student graduate. I think honestly that 99% of the time, it is the student that chose to withdraw/delay that caused the drop in the matriculation rate. That reason though is something you will be hard pressed to find an answer to because its usually personal and nobody likes to talk about issues until they are in the past.
 
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Piskaupf said:
In one medical school of about 110, 10 students being expelled for a mix of academic/professional issues as M2s out of place or excessive?
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Very high. In my class of over 200, we had 5-6 drop out by attrition and one student who dropped to the year group behind us for academic concerns. No expulsions in the 4 years I was there.
 
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I go to LECOM and it's average that of the around 200 people the class begins with that we'll graduate about 175. Looks like we take the cake XD
 
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My school has a lot (~6-7%) of students take a LOA. As far as expulsions. I don't think we have had a single one for something unprofessional-- especially pre-clinical. We are just under constant threat that it will turn up on our MSPE.
 
That’s a crazy high number for expulsions and would be equally crazy if it were for drop outs. That’s a problem with either the admissions process or the school’s expectations.
 
Prionos said:
I go to LECOM and it's average that of the around 200 people the class begins with that we'll graduate about 175. Looks like we take the cake XD
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As mentioned above, delay in graduation is common for a wide variety of reasons, even at MD schools. This is not the same as attrition, which is the loss of students due to withdrawal, or expulsion.

That’s a crazy high number for expulsions and would be equally crazy if it were for drop outs. That’s a problem with either the admissions process or the school’s expectations.

Or, as I pointed out, it didn't actually happen.
 
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Goro said:
As mentioned above, delay in graduation is common for a wide variety of reasons, even at MD schools. This is not the same as attrition, which is the loss of students due to withdrawal, or expulsion.

That’s a crazy high number for expulsions and would be equally crazy if it were for drop outs. That’s a problem with either the admissions process or the school’s expectations.

Or, as I pointed out, it didn't actually happen.
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of those 25ish from my class i can tell you the majority of them were dropped entirely due to not keeping up their grades during the first two semesters. The people who come from family's with plenty of money usually get to just get pushed to the class below and there were a handful that got dropped to the class below
 
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Of my 150ish classmates, I can think of one who was probably expelled (either expelled or strongly encouraged to leave) and maybe 3-4 who dropped out for other reasons (now still in science, but different fields). As far as I know, no one left between M1 and M2, a couple left before M3, and the rest during M3.
 
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We lose a few each year. Most likely not expelled, just dismissed or dropped from being tripped up by one of the never ending hurdles. We did lose an MS4 that was allegedly boosting cars from our school parking lot. Word spread because of online records and vanishing cars. It's a little bit of a chicken and the egg scenario though. The person may have been booted before the boosting began for various academic shortcomings. Craziness though.
 
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Sounds like Mizzou. We had 10 out of 96 kicked out of my class I think. Not straight expulsions though, mix of being asked to leave, getting kicked out for academic reasons, being required to repeat a year, and then vague professionalism concerns (think that last one actually got lawsuits filed against the school).
 
my experience was those that left wanted to. Multiple people repeated years for failing, and the school and strict rules about alcohol and tobacco which nabbed a few but they were always allowed to continue. One person got busted by cops having huge off campus party. School made him join AA because apparently any alcohol use makes you an alcoholic and repeat a year, but still graduated in 5 years instead of normal 4. Heck, i have one friend that failed 1st, then passed it, then failed 2nd. They told him take a year off, go get head straight and restart. He did that and next time through graduated 4 years.
 
Momentum70 said:
my experience was those that left wanted to. Multiple people repeated years for failing, and the school and strict rules about alcohol and tobacco which nabbed a few but they were always allowed to continue. One person got busted by cops having huge off campus party. School made him join AA because apparently any alcohol use makes you an alcoholic and repeat a year, but still graduated in 5 years instead of normal 4. Heck, i have one friend that failed 1st, then passed it, then failed 2nd. They told him take a year off, go get head straight and restart. He did that and next time through graduated 4 years.
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LLU? LUCOM? That's a ludicrous punishment for simply drinking alcohol. I feel terrible for anyone who has to repeat a year of medical school because they threw a house party. And it's insulting to AA and the real addicts who rely on AA that a kid who had a few drinks at a house party is required to attend meetings. UFB.
 
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Angus Avagadro said:
I think 2 to 5 % attrition would be about the norm for most schools. Some drop out because it's not for them. My school bends over backwards supplying resources to get students through. Even cheating isn't mandatory expulsion. I caught a student with a cheat sheet during an exam. He was given the chance to repeat the year or leave. Turned into a $50k mistake on his part.Very few academic expulsions. Many times I would work with students and think we are just taking this guys money. Then, things would click and they would graduate. One went on to score 93 rd percentile on COMLEX. I am beginning to think new and for profit med schools are becoming more responsible for situations like this.
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I know I'm late to this thread, but I agree with this. My school hasn't really had any attrition so far, besides a huge incident a while back where 10+ students were basically expelled, but ~not,~ with a student or two dropping out so far. However, talking to M2s, cheating is completely a "slap on the wrist," so to speak. There are at least 1-2 M2s who've been caught cheating in multiple blocks since starting medical school, and they've been told it won't go on their MSPE, but they need to stop. It's incredible what medical schools will do to hold their students.
 
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Smolpuppo21 said:
I know I'm late to this thread, but I agree with this. My school hasn't really had any attrition so far, besides a huge incident a while back where 10+ students were basically expelled, but ~not,~ with a student or two dropping out so far. However, talking to M2s, cheating is completely a "slap on the wrist," so to speak. There are at least 1-2 M2s who've been caught cheating in multiple blocks since starting medical school, and they've been told it won't go on their MSPE, but they need to stop. It's incredible what medical schools will do to hold their students.
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Can confirm. Some time ago we had a student caught red handed with a cheat sheet. He was suspended, and went into therapy. He graduated a year behind his classmates and is now a PC doc in a western state.
 
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