How many volunteer hours are solid?

[corndogs]

What is a safe amount of:

1. clinical volunteering hours
2. non-clinical volunteering hours
3. shadowing hours

that would make an applicant competitive for each tier? (top, mid, bottom) @Goro @gonnif @LizzyM @gyngyn

Also is research important for mid and lower tier or is it only top tier that cares?

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[LoveBeingHuman:)]

Unlike clinical and shadowing, non-clinical kind of depends on what you did. I'd say 100 hours at a soup kitchen is better than 100 hours tutoring your classmates.

 

[zurc2014]

When I applied I was told a solid number of hours was 100 for everything.

 

[freedoctor17]

I was told 150 hours of clinical volunteering and 50 hours of shadowing were average.

 

[piii]

3

 

[Lost in Translation]

I like to think at minimum 1 academic year's worth for a single commitment, which is ~150 (about 4h/week for 38 weeks).

People on here will tell you otherwise, but if I were an ad com doing any less than that smells of checking boxes. If you're passionate about what you do as a volunteer, you're going to easily break that 150 mark.

 

[neoexile]

What is a safe amount of:

1. clinical volunteering hours
2. non-clinical volunteering hours
3. shadowing hours

that would make an applicant competitive for each tier? (top, mid, bottom) @Goro @gonnif @LizzyM @gyngyn

Also is research important for mid and lower tier or is it only top tier that cares?

It's all about continuity. 2 hours a week for a year is much better than >150 hours in a month for volunteering.

 

[Goro]

I was told 150 hours of clinical volunteering and 50 hours of shadowing were average.

Agree 100%. LizzyM has mentioned that anyone with > 300 hrs is in the top quartile of hours at her stratospheric school.

 

[corndogs]

Agree 100%. LizzyM has mentioned that anyone with > 300 hrs is in the top quartile of hours at her stratospheric school.

300 as in clinical, non-clinical, and shadowing combined?

 

[TheBiologist]

3

1 is enough if it's meaningful

 

[LizzyM]

(suboptimal, decent, exceptional)
1. clinical hours (work or volunteer): 99, 150, 1,000+ (employment)
2. non-clinical volunteering hours: 99, 150, 1,000+ (full-time gap year)
3. shadowing hours: 8, 40, 80

 

[neoexile]

(suboptimal, decent, exceptional)
1. clinical hours (work or volunteer): 99, 150, 1,000+ (employment)
2. non-clinical volunteering hours: 99, 150, 1,000+ (full-time gap year)
3. shadowing hours: 8, 40, 80

So question, LizzyM. I want to know how you differentiate applicants to medical schools that have volunteer hours just to fill a box out vs applicants that have a true commitment to their community?

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

So question, LizzyM. I want to know how you differentiate applicants to medical schools that have volunteer hours just to fill a box out vs applicants that have a true commitment to their community?

Here's how:

-Is the volunteering over a year or more, or over a few months?

-How does the applicant talk about it?

 

[LizzyM]

So question, LizzyM. I want to know how you differentiate applicants to medical schools that have volunteer hours just to fill a box out vs applicants that have a true commitment to their community?

If there is any doubt after reading the entire application and the LORs, it gets flagged as something to talk over with the applicant during the interview.

 

[Isomerase]

(suboptimal, decent, exceptional)
1. clinical hours (work or volunteer): 99, 150, 1,000+ (employment)
2. non-clinical volunteering hours: 99, 150, 1,000+ (full-time gap year)
3. shadowing hours: 8, 40, 80

What would you guess is the average number of volunteering hours of accepted students at your school? Is there an expectation that a nontrad has more volunteering hours than a trad applicant since they had an extra year or more?

 

[Goro]

300 as in clinical, non-clinical, and shadowing combined?

No, I think it was 300 in a single volunteering category.

 

[Goro]

So question, LizzyM. I want to know how you differentiate applicants to medical schools that have volunteer hours just to fill a box out vs applicants that have a true commitment to their community?

To follow up my wise colleague, we have interview questions about volunteering or other EC experiences. Our BS detectors are pretty decent. And no, I'm not sharing.

 

[neoexile]

To follow up my wise colleague, we have interview questions about volunteering or other EC experiences. Our BS detectors are pretty decent. And no, I'm not sharing.

Question. Do you guys do studies on volunteer hours/interview performance vs first year performance in medical school? I am interested to see how those two correlate.

 

[Goro]

Question. Do you guys do studies on interview performance vs first year performance in medical school? I am interested to see how those two correlate.

I think that I have to some degree, and there was nothing conclusive. Our worst students seemed to leave mixed feeling at interviews, with one interviewer having a caution! I have learned to always listen to these particular interviewers.

I keep track of the people I interview and it's also mixed. I actually came up with a rubric designed to score interviewers based upon their interviewee's performance...something like an ERA for interviewers.

 

[neoexile]

I think that I have to some degree, and there was nothing conclusive. Our worst students seemed to leave mixed feeling at interviews, with one interviewer having a caution! I have learned to always listen to these particular interviewers.

I keep track of the people I interview and it's also mixed. I actually came up with a rubric designed to score interviewers based upon their interviewee's performance...something like an ERA for interviewers.

Is there a cutoff for excellent interviewees? Do the interviewees that score the highest routinely go on to perform at medical school vs interviewees who score below a certain point being more mixed in performance?

 

[buckoh24]

I think it really depends on your activities. I wrote a MME about a volunteering experience that I only had 30 hours for so far but I could talk more passionately about that than I could with the "box check" volunteering I did at first at the hospital.I think 150 clinical and 50 shadowing is the standard now. Not too sure about non clinical (I only had about 15 since one of my activities could be seen as clinical and non clinical but didnt count it) but I think 100+ is decent.

 

[boogiecousins94]

I think it really depends on your activities. I wrote a MME about a volunteering experience that I only had 30 hours for so far but I could talk more passionately about that than I could with the "box check" volunteering I did at first at the hospital.I think 150 clinical and 50 shadowing is the standard now. Not too sure about non clinical (I only had about 15 since one of my activities could be seen as clinical and non clinical but didnt count it) but I think 100+ is decent.

I agree I had one clinical volunteering role I had 100hours over 3 semesters and one hospice volunteering role I had only 15hours on my amcas because I just started. Granted I have been doing the hospice volunteering since May and have about 40-50hrs now, both interviewers only asked about the hospice volunteering and not about the other one where I had 5x as much hours.

I spoke about it passionately and talked about it for 5+min with each interviewer so sometimes I feel as though how you articulate it means much more than hours. If you stocked shelves in an ER for 300hrs and can't speak about it well then then clearly you learned nothing and the hours spent is irrelevant in my opinion.

 

[freedoctor17]

Agree 100%. LizzyM has mentioned that anyone with > 300 hrs is in the top quartile of hours at her stratospheric school.

I think you were actually the one who told me this in a previous thread I made so I'm glad you agree

But yeah personally I'm going to have about 150 hours over 2 years by application time which I was a little worried didn't look like much but I do a lot of other non clinical volunteering that should hopefully make up for it. Shadowing wise I'm definitely slacking though. Already got a good 2 weeks scheduled over this break to make up for it though.

 

[Goro]

Is there a cutoff for excellent interviewees? Do the interviewees that score the highest routinely go on to perform at medical school vs interviewees who score below a certain point being more mixed in performance?

No. Interview performance shows us that you can think on your feet and that you're a human being. Your stats tell us that you can perform in med school. Remember, med school is really about being able to inhale huge amounts of info in a short period of time, and then apply that info. There's no interview that can show you that. they will show us that we can trust you to do a vaginal exam on our female relatives, or a prostate exam on our male relatives, or to touch our kids.

 

[buckoh24]

I agree I had one clinical volunteering role I had 100hours over 3 semesters and one hospice volunteering role I had only 15hours on my amcas because I just started. Granted I have been doing the hospice volunteering since May and have about 40-50hrs now, both interviewers only asked about the hospice volunteering and not about the other one where I had 5x as much hours.

I spoke about it passionately and talked about it for 5+min with each interviewer so sometimes I feel as though how you articulate it means much more than hours. If you stocked shelves in an ER for 300hrs and can't speak about it well then then clearly you learned nothing and the hours spent is irrelevant in my opinion.

I was asked about my HIV volunteering which was about 30 hours (the one I wrote the MME about) and about 2 shifts as a scribe at a free clinic that was about 15 total hours. I really enjoy the volunteering that I do now and I had to explain that I had to wait til I was 23 to volunteer at the LGBT youth center (one of their requirements is 23+) so they didnt think I was starting late just to put on an update/secondaries.

 

[LizzyM]

What would you guess is the average number of volunteering hours of accepted students at your school? Is there an expectation that a nontrad has more volunteering hours than a trad applicant since they had an extra year or more?

I don't believe that there is an expectation that a non-trad has more volunteering hours when you consider that some non-trads had significant careers before deciding on medical school. Dropping a career in e-commerce or opera, doing a post-bac with volunteering/research/shadowing and then applying during gap year means you've had 2 years of post-bac to do volunteering compared with 3 years for a traditional applicant applying after junior year.

It really has to be a holistic review of the application. Asking for averages or minimums just fosters a box checking mentality.

 

[Planes2Doc]

It should be #00 with continuity. If you started something as a freshman or sophomore, and suddenly discontinued it right before you applied, it will look like box-checking. You should shoot for something over 100, probably 300 hours total of clinical and non-clinical volunteering to be safe. On a side note, I wish people were more concerned about the people they help than the number of hours needed for their app, but it is what it is.

 

[psychgirl95]

What about those of us who’ve been seriously ill (e.g., had to have a tumor removed) and haven’t been able to volunteer like our peers have?

I’m hoping to having 150+ hours in all three categories by the time I apply (June 2019), but if I don’t have as many hours as other applicants, I don’t want it to held against me. (Edit: To clarify, I’m wondering about my hours being completed ~a year before I apply being seen as “box checking.”)

Most of my clinical volunteering would take place at my local children’s hospital; however, I’ll also be volunteering with kids with autism and other developmental disabilities (including summer camps) and camps for kids with serious health issues.

 

[CloverBale]

(suboptimal, decent, exceptional)
1. clinical hours (work or volunteer): 99, 150, 1,000+ (employment)
2. non-clinical volunteering hours: 99, 150, 1,000+ (full-time gap year)
3. shadowing hours: 8, 40, 80

I’m always super worried about people thinking I’m lying about my hours. I spent an entire summer volunteering full time (8 hour days) M-Sa.
Then during undergrad I had nearly a full time job while at school. I’ve got over 7k hours of clinical hours and counting.

 

[BTC0821]

I'll be beginning much of my ECs this coming spring and anticipate a minimum of 100 in each by the time I apply but will be doing those things full-time during my gap year. How is this perceived as I am starting these so late? I've been working a job throughout school so haven't dedicated as much time on volunteering as my peers may have. Are we able to put down anticipatory hours and mention them for what they are?

 

[chemdoctor]

I always thought most people have 200+, so I always thought I wanted to aim for more than that. Working is different though isn't it? I always aimed for over 200 in everything I did. If I Can manage to get more, great. But I don't think I'd apply with anything less than 200 with every single thing lol.

 

[infectiousdisease101]

I was told by a UC adcom (I won't identify the school) that on average, The matriculants for that school have 500 hours of clinical experience. California is to my understanding more competitive. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

1 is enough if it's meaningful

10 minutes will suffice if you can write a great essay about it in your secondaries.

 

[RaspberrySlushy]

Interesting. I have 400+ clinical volunteering hours, split between two different hospital units (one adult, one peds) and my most recent interviewer gave me a hard time about not having more hours, specifically why I didn’t have any non-hospital clinical volunteering. He prob has a point that it would be good to diversify more but I definitely had the feeling he didn’t think I had enough hours.

 

[neoexile]

Interesting. I have 400+ clinical volunteering hours, split between two different hospital units (one adult, one peds) and my most recent interviewer gave me a hard time about not having more hours, specifically why I didn’t have any non-hospital clinical volunteering. He prob has a point that it would be good to diversify more but I definitely had the feeling he didn’t think I had enough hours.

=/

I think that was a bit much for him to say you dont have enough hours.

 

[freedoctor17]

[

Interesting. I have 400+ clinical volunteering hours, split between two different hospital units (one adult, one peds) and my most recent interviewer gave me a hard time about not having more hours, specifically why I didn’t have any non-hospital clinical volunteering. He prob has a point that it would be good to diversify more but I definitely had the feeling he didn’t think I had enough hours.

Wow I'd be screwed at that place. I'm only gonna have around 150, maybe 200 clinical hours by application time depending on how many shifts I get. I'll be continuing with it over the summer and next year so I'll probably get close to 400 at that point but won't be on my app.

 

[RaspberrySlushy]

I think this interviewer may be an outlier, just based on other applicants who had the same guy and similar experiences with him. Maybe he just thought my hours should be more diversified in clinical setting? I don’t really know but it sure didn’t feel good.

I’ve had 3 interviews so far and the other two were not like that at all and in both of the others, there was good conversation to be had about clinical experience.

So wasn’t trying to worry anyone and sorry if I did. It was just fresh on my mind as one of those things you find yourself thinking about when you want to torture yourself with thoughts of your interviews and trying to predict the outcome even though the logical part of you knows it’s pointless and not a good idea.

@freedoctor17 - don’t worry! And also you get to project on your app so if there are hours you know you will be getting after you submit your app, you can include those in your total.

 

[kgamon8]

The hours that @LizzyM gives above are also my ballpark figure for students. That is 150 each of clinical and non clinical volunteering as base for a reasonably competitive student as well as 50-100 shadow/observing. However, these are just that, a rule of thumb mostly because students always ask for a number. But these all must be put in the context of the overall application and seen with the ratio/balance of whatever else the applicant has. For example when I see an enormous amount of research and shadowing and bare amounts of volunteering, I want to understand motivation of the applicant. Do they have service in mind or just doing for themselves? Frankly, in the end there is no magic number and it really has to be put in overall context of the application and what it says about the person? what qualities does it show?

In terms of longevity for non-clinical, if I volunteered at an animal shelter pretty consistently for two years at my school's city, but then during the summers volunteered at a few different places at my hometown, about 30ish hours for each, is that frowned upon?

 

[de Ribas]

specifically why I didn’t have any non-hospital clinical volunteering. He prob has a point

He definitely has a point Non-clinical volunteering is a different category and is viewed differently. You have to have at least 100-150 hours of non-clinical volunteering.

 

[Kingsmen2018]

I was told by a UC adcom (I won't identify the school) that on average, The matriculants for that school have 500 hours of clinical experience. California is to my understanding more competitive. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, screw CA

 

[chemdoctor]

He definitely has a point Non-clinical volunteering is a different category and is viewed differently. You have to have at least 100-150 hours of non-clinical volunteering.

So if I have over 200 each of separate nonclinucal would that be like around 500 nonclinical volunteering Hours?! Does it ask all together or individual? Never made an amcas before and don’t plan to for another few years as I’m not applying until 2019/2020

 

[RaspberrySlushy]

He definitely has a point Non-clinical volunteering is a different category and is viewed differently. You have to have at least 100-150 hours of non-clinical volunteering.

He didn’t mean non-clinical b/c I have plots of that (mostly b/c of being an older non-trad, and having some vol commitments that started before I went back to school to pursue this crazy dream). He was saying clinical but not in a hospital, like in a smaller clinic or private practice setting. He was asking why all my clinical vol hours were hospital related and also seemed to think my hours were low.

But again, this seemed very particular to this guy and is not something I’ve encountered at other interviews (and my fellow applicants interviewed by him seemed to have similar stories) so he may just have really high expectations for hours and for people to have diverse experience. He was not rude in any way and I feel I dealt with it fine even though it was a curve ball. I mean, he’s not wrong, it would be good to have some volunteering that’s clinical but not hospital just to see what that’s like and experience other settings. So we talked about that some.

All in all, I don’t think that question will make or break my interview and I answered as best I could. Just one of those things you think about afterwards.

 

[de Ribas]

So if I have over 200 each of separate nonclinucal would that be like around 500 nonclinical volunteering Hours?! Does it ask all together or individual? Never made an amcas before and don’t plan to for another few years as I’m not applying until 2019/2020

total

 

[infectiousdisease101]

So what I'm hearing is the 500 hours sounds about right, right?

 

[Master Thinker]

Does anyone know how activity listing in AMCAS works? I will have ~170 hours of clinical volunteering by the time of application but intend to do more after sending it in. Do we report only what has been done or everything up to matriculation?

 

[Master Thinker]

I was told by my premed advisor that ~100 hours of clinical volunteering was average but best aim for >150 hrs clinical and ~40 hrs shadowing.

 

[de Ribas]

I was told by my premed advisor that ~100 hours of clinical volunteering was average but best aim for >150 hrs clinical and ~40 hrs shadowing.

Pre-med advisors are often wrong and do not see the real picture. 40 hrs shadowing hours is not an average.

 

[RaspberrySlushy]

Does anyone know how activity listing in AMCAS works? I will have ~170 hours of clinical volunteering by the time of application but intend to do more after sending it in. Do we report only what has been done or everything up to matriculation?

Yes you can project hours you haven’t done yet that you plan to complete before matriculation. The way it works is that you put an end date that is later that’s how they know some of it is projected. For example when I applied this cycle, I could list end dates as far out as July or Aug of 2018.

Also, this may just be me but with anything I projected, I took how many hours I thought I would do in the next year and cut it, usually by about half, because things come up or you’re out traveling for interviews or you get a new gap year job which affects your availability for other things, or you move for med school earlier than you think you will or whatever form of “life happens” comes to pass. It seemed safer to low ball any projected hours than to be insincere or have to explain myself later.

 

[neoexile]

@LizzyM @Goro

Have you ever encountered people who made up their volunteer experiences? People who stated they had 100s of hours at a hospital or something non-clinical and then were later found out to be fake?

 

[freedoctor17]

@LizzyM @Goro

Have you ever encountered people who made up their volunteer experiences? People who stated they had 100s of hours at a hospital or something non-clinical and then were later found out to be fake?

I sure hope they can usually pick them out. I know so many people who show up, sign in, and leave before coming back and signing out later in the day and it's pretty frustrating to see but I think in the end it's mostly hurting themselves since I'm pretty sure they won't be able to speak about it at all and that they'll get caught. Maybe some people are really good at making up stuff though so who knows.