How much do Vets really make?

[ashilb]

How much do Vets really make?
I was just wondering how much do vets make after being in the field for more then 2 years. I'm wondering because I will be taking a BIG student loan out to go to a Medicine school.

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[Minnerbelle]

There are a bunch of other sources that break it down much better by specialty, type of practice, geographic location, owner vs. associate, etc... but some of them may not be accessible to you without a subscription. Here's one on AAHA's website that's publicly available.

It's def not a profession you go in to with the intent of make money or comfortably pay off big student loans. It's rather a profession you go into DESPITE being likely to be in a bind to pay off those student loans (unless you're lucky). Some people are great business people, and may be able to run a profitable clinic. There are some sectors that pay well, where some may require extra training (and thus more time and furthering debt). But for a lot of us, just the DVM in and of itself will is not going to make it easy to pay off those whopping loans. Some people do it fine, but others have a really hard time.

 

[StartingoverVet]

There are a bunch of other sources that break it down much better by specialty, type of practice, geographic location, owner vs. associate, etc... but some of them may not be accessible to you without a subscription. Here's one on AAHA's website that's publicly available.

.

A sad point I haven't seen discussed ad nauseum before is how little the salaries increase with experience. Add 5 years experience for only a 10% salary increase. Add another 10 years for another 10% increase.

That seems crazy. A vet with 20 years experience approx 20% premium to a new grad? Ugh.

 

[LetItSnow]

A sad point I haven't seen discussed ad nauseum before is how little the salaries increase with experience. Add 5 years experience for only a 10% salary increase. Add another 10 years for another 10% increase.

That seems crazy. A vet with 20 years experience approx 20% premium to a new grad? Ugh.

Just today we had a lecture from a swine vet who pulled swine vet salaries from the AASV..... there was a HUGE difference between mean (and median) salaries for new swine vets versus experienced vets. Your 10-year vet was earning close to double what the new vet was, and the top 10% earners after 10 years were much more than double.

I can't speak to how accurate the numbers were, and obviously he was trying to portray swine work in as enticing a light as he could, but.....

 

[Minnerbelle]

A sad point I haven't seen discussed ad nauseum before is how little the salaries increase with experience. Add 5 years experience for only a 10% salary increase. Add another 10 years for another 10% increase.

That seems crazy. A vet with 20 years experience approx 20% premium to a new grad? Ugh.

yeah, kinda sad ain't it? But I'm not sure I can complain all too much. Well if we're talking about a SA animal vet signing on as an associate in a GP practice straight after graduation, I guess it comes down to how much an associate brings into the gross profits of the practice. As far as I can understand, a new grad may take a while to earn their keep and the starting salary is an investment from the practice owner's point of view (to the associate, it's almost like charity so they can start at a decent salary). After gaining experience, an associate will become more efficient and be able to bring in more profit to the practice. And as that happens, the associate's salary goes up to reflect that or the associate gets paid on production and directly increases with increases in gross profits. But there's always a point to be reached at any given clinic, where the associate him/herself can't do much to increase efficiency (+ client compliance) without there being a change in the clinic structure/policy or clientele demographics. It's not like the client pays a higher amount of money for an experienced vet at a clinic to see their animals/perform surgery/run tests either... so really, the experienced vet can only increase their earning by "selling" MORE services. And there's obviously limits to that. Perhaps that ceiling just isn't that high, and maybe combined with the higher starting salary, it just doesn't leave room for that much salary growth .

But I guess that is the price you pay to be an associate at an existing practice, where you don't have to start with 0 clientele. In general, equine vets have a much higher salary growth as they gain experience, and the ivory tower explanation at least was exactly that. That it's because many equine vets start at abysmally low take-home salary because they have very few clients who are willing to pay for their services at the beginning. I would think a similar thing would be seen if a SA practitioner started a house call practice after graduation. I'm sure there would be a much higher growth in salary over the years as that vet gains more clientele (either that or the practice busts and goes bankrupt first).

Just today we had a lecture from a swine vet who pulled swine vet salaries from the AASV..... there was a HUGE difference between mean (and median) salaries for new swine vets versus experienced vets. Your 10-year vet was earning close to double what the new vet was, and the top 10% earners after 10 years were much more than double.

Yeah, I heard those numbers too from the swine guy that came to CSU. I think that's just one of those fields that are more lucrative than others. Maybe this isn't right, but what I inferred from that talk was that the pork industry is on the more vertically integrated side of things, and therefore it's more likely for a swine vet to be employed by a big profitable company. In general, I think your potential for salary growth (and salary itself) is greater anytime you work for a large institution rather than a small business.

 

[chickenlittle]

When looking at the statistics, also remember that those numbers are only averages... there is a lot of variation, depending on area of the country, how hard/efficiently you're willing to work.

As an example, when I graduated 5 years ago I was offered small animal practice starting salaries ranging from $45k - 70k. Yes, there were cost of living variations, but there were also major differences in what was expected of me... the $70k guy did a LOT of ear crops at his hospital, and when I stated that I was not interested in ear crops his response was "how else do you expect to earn $70k?" So I took the $45k job (lowest paying of the 5 jobs I was offered), because it looked like the best practice environment. (I was wrong, but that's a whole other story!!)

Right now, I know a lot of vets who can't even find jobs at all... so they'd be willing to work for just about any salary. Therefore, salaries are falling across the board. $60-70k seems to be the going rate for experienced vets in my area, maybe closer to $80k in the large city about an hour away. I make substantially more than that working for a corporation, but I'm working really hard and the hours are long... after a year, the stress is starting to catch up with me. It's great money at the moment, but I don't think it will be sustainable for me to do long-term.

 

[yann]

Maybe it's because I am so used to getting paid the bare minimum, but the numbers look pretty good to me. Never expected myself to make more than 100K unless I start my own business, so 60K starting is, well, satisfactory.

 

[spicykimchi]

I wonder how much the average vet's salary is after we subtract taxes and loan payments. I assume that the more recently the vet graduated, the less this number would be. Does anybody have any numbers on this?

 

[dyachei]

I wonder how much the average vet's salary is after we subtract taxes and loan payments. I assume that the more recently the vet graduated, the less this number would be. Does anybody have any numbers on this?

I was in state. I make above average salary. I pay $1500 in loans each month. I can only imagine if I had been out of state. If you want details, feel free to PM me.

 

[LetItSnow]

Maybe it's because I am so used to getting paid the bare minimum, but the numbers look pretty good to me. Never expected myself to make more than 100K unless I start my own business, so 60K starting is, well, satisfactory.

60k a year works out (very, very roughly because of a lot of factors, like what state you're in, where you set your withholding, deduction for benefits, etc.) to around $3600/month take-home pay.

If you happen to have the avg vet student debt* of $120k, you are paying around $1300/month in loan payments (unless you do something like IBR).

So now your actual income is down to $2300/month. By the time you add in housing, car, food, health insurance, other insurance, utilities ....

.... it's a tight budget. It's by no means unsurvivable, but it's tight. Not much room for 'fun'.

Even then it might seem not so bad to you, but when you start thinking about things like buying a house, having kids, etc.... that salary and student debt combination won't leave you much wiggle room.

One of the issues I have with all the discussions about the economics of the vet industry, though, is that avg vet student debt number. If you read the fine print, that number is always an average *for students who have debt when they graduate*. So in reality, the true avg debt number is somewhat lower because of the number of students who have parents footing the bill. How much lower I don't know. One would suspect not very much, but....

 

[spicykimchi]

Do you guys know of anybody who is outright impoverished because of their loan payments?

 

[chickenlittle]

I don't think that $60k is an average starting salary - that's what I've seen offered for experienced vets. We recently hired a new grad who said the starting salaries she had heard tossed about (in a high cost-of-living area in the Mid-Atlantic, no less) were in the neighborhood of $50k. Her student loan payments are over $1500 a month, so that would have been very tight for her... AND even those jobs were hard to come by. She sent out nearly 100 resumes and was unemployed for nearly five months after graduation before finding a job with us.

 

[LetItSnow]

I don't think that $60k is an average starting salary - that's what I've seen offered for experienced vets. We recently hired a new grad who said the starting salaries she had heard tossed about (in the Washington DC area, no less - high cost of living) were in the neighborhood of $50k. Her student loan payments are over $1500 a month, so that would have been very tight for her... AND even those jobs were hard to come by.

I just used $60k because that's what the poster to whom I was responding said they'd view as adequate. Obviously a lower salary would be more troublesome. All the numbers I see from the surveys suggest that the average starting salary is better than $50k (though we're all aware of the wide range of starting salaries based on location and type of practice).

The $120k is what I've heard as the most recent avg number, and to get $1300 I used the typical interest rate and repayment period. If your new hire is paying $1500/mo, she undoubtedly has more in loans (or obtained higher-interest loans from private sources?).

That said, I'm not trying to argue with you: Certainly new grads are starting out in the $50k range in *some* places. And obviously for $120k to be the mean there have to be people quite a bit above it.

 

[spicykimchi]

Oh I had a question that I kept forgot to ask: How many years do people typically have to pay off their student loans? Is it 30?

 

[LetItSnow]

Oh I had a question that I kept forgot to ask: How many years do people typically have to pay off their student loans? Is it 30?

The 'standard' is 10 years, but there are alternatives. You can find more information on the web. Start at http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/OtherFormsOfRepay.jsp.....

 

[Trilt]

AVMA 2011 Numbers for new grads who got full-time jobs: click. I think it's pretty nicely broken down.

 

[Minnerbelle]

AVMA 2011 Numbers for new grads who got full-time jobs: click. I think it's pretty nicely broken down.

Wow, I knew post-dvm training was on the rise, but it's now over 50%!?

 

[chickenlittle]

Those studies are helpful, but there are a number of people on VIN discussing the fact that actual experience isn't really corresponding to what those studies seem to be saying. I'm not saying they're inaccurate, just that a lot of people are wishing their reality was as rosy as that painted by the AVMA surveys.

 

[LetItSnow]

Those studies are helpful, but there are a number of people on VIN discussing the fact that actual experience isn't really corresponding to what those studies seem to be saying. I'm not saying they're inaccurate, just that a lot of people are wishing their reality was as rosy as that painted by the AVMA surveys.

I guess I'm not sure how to take that. It sounds like you're saying that the studies aren't reflecting reality? If so, where do you think the discrepancy is coming from?

Just because human nature is what it is (we all love to complain), I'm inclined to trust the surveys; especially since they're not that complex to carry out. And, an average being what it is, you're going to have a large number of people below the average who feel like "their reality" isn't what they were expecting - because everyone hopes to be in the upper 50%, right? That leaves a lot of people to comment on VIN about the 'surveys' being off.

If I did the math right, and if those AVMA numbers approximate reality, 37% of new grads who managed to find a job (and frankly, I think that's a huge issue right there) are making $59k+, and that's including the ones in fellowships/residencies who are lowering the average. If you look at the average for new hires in private practice, it's clear that the average is in the mid- to upper-$60k range.

I truly don't know how to reconcile that with the salary you're talking about ($50k) in what ought to be a reasonably affluent area. Your thoughts on that? Are things changing fast enough that the surveys aren't keeping up? Is that really possible? (Those numbers aren't that old!) Does your clinic underpay?

I guess I'm not sure how to interpret the data. I have what appears to me to be reasonably reliable data (assuming the AVMA isn't blatantly bending the numbers) on the one hand, and "a number of people on VIN" on the other. If the latter are more accurate than the former, it'd sure be nice to have that come out.....

 

[Minnerbelle]

agree with LIS on the confusion. It would be one thing we're talking about projections and such, but this survey should be based on factual numbers. Only thing I can think of that might reconcile the validity of both survey and "experience of colleagues," is that the survey only incorporates voluntary replies? I feel like just as people in the bottom 50% are likely to get angry and vent, they're probably not as enthusiastic about returning their salary surveys to the AVMA. So maybe the exaggeration goes both ways to some extent. That being said, I have no idea how the AVMA gets their numbers.

it's just hard for us to wrap our head around the idea that we should disregard a set of rather official looking data without compelling reasons other than "there have been more and more anecdotes to the contrary." It's hard enough to determine at what point enough anecdotes have accumulated to accept that the data is wrong, it's virtually impossible on a pre-vet forum where these anecdotes aren't even laid out. Dr. chickenlittle, I'm not saying that what you're saying is wrong or should be written off or anything like that. But I hope you see why it's difficult to process. Any suggestions?

 

[chickenlittle]

When this issue has been discussed on VIN, suggestions that have been thrown out there include:

- People who have low-paying jobs are less likely to respond to the surveys.
- If I recall correctly, we took the salary survey BEFORE graduation... meaning that these were the salaries that were promised, but not necessarily what was paid.
- Many of the grads who accept the higher-paying jobs will find themselves leaving those jobs within a matter of months (either by their own choice or being pushed out for not producing enough) and may be unable to find a similar job.
- Banfield is a major employer of new grads and does certain things that may overinflate the salaries cited by their employees - signing bonuses, really high first-year salaries that may drop in your second year, etc. (Given that nearly 10% of my vet school class is now working for Banfield, their numbers could skew the data pretty significantly on the small animal side of things!)

I know there were some other valid points that were made, but I can't seem to find the post right now and have to leave for work. If any of you vet students are on VIN, you should be able to find the discussion pretty easily... it was within the last six months or so.

I have absolutely no complaints about my salary... I work hard, produce a lot, and therefore I'm very well-compensated. But I hear more and more people saying that they can't find jobs to pay their student loans, and I think it would be foolish to dismiss those comments based on a self-reported survey.

 

[dyachei]

agree with LIS on the confusion. It would be one thing we're talking about projections and such, but this survey should be based on factual numbers. Only thing I can think of that might reconcile the validity of both survey and "experience of colleagues," is that the survey only incorporates voluntary replies? I feel like just as people in the bottom 50% are likely to get angry and vent, they're probably not as enthusiastic about returning their salary surveys to the AVMA. So maybe the exaggeration goes both ways to some extent. That being said, I have no idea how the AVMA gets their numbers.

it's just hard for us to wrap our head around the idea that we should disregard a set of rather official looking data without compelling reasons other than "there have been more and more anecdotes to the contrary." It's hard enough to determine at what point enough anecdotes have accumulated to accept that the data is wrong, it's virtually impossible on a pre-vet forum where these anecdotes aren't even laid out. Dr. chickenlittle, I'm not saying that what you're saying is wrong or should be written off or anything like that. But I hope you see why it's difficult to process. Any suggestions?

The survey is completely voluntary and completed around the time of graduation. I know many people in my class did not fill out their surveys.

 

[LetItSnow]

I feel like just as people in the bottom 50% are likely to get angry and vent, they're probably not as enthusiastic about returning their salary surveys to the AVMA.

Assuming (!) the survey is anonymous, wouldn't they be all the more LIKELY to respond, leading to lower-than-accurate numbers?

it's just hard for us to wrap our head around the idea that we should disregard a set of rather official looking data without compelling reasons other than "there have been more and more anecdotes to the contrary."

That's where I'm at. We talk over and over about evidence-based medicine and how as a group that's where we want medicine to be.

So ok, why doesn't that thinking apply to these discussions? We have evidence (survey-based results) and we have anecdotal (people posting on VIN). I'm not criticizing or disagreeing with the anecdotes; I guess I'm more asking "Why do you want me to disregard the evidence in favor of the anecdotes?"

 

[LetItSnow]

The survey is completely voluntary and completed arou/nd the time of graduation. I know many people in my class did not fill out their surveys.

Deleting my post because I missed that chickenlittle already responded and addressed much of what I said.

I'm dubious, though, that people with lower salaries are less likely to fill out the survey (unless the survey isn't anonymous?).

I can certainly buy a few of his examples (Banfield, for one). With regard to people leaving higher paying jobs and not finding another.... If you have loan obligations and leave your higher-paying job without another job in place and then start griping about how you can't pay your bills ... well ... I'm not sure that indicates an industry problem.

If they were pushed out for lack of production, that's entirely different.

I didn't understand what chickenlittle meant by promised salaries that weren't delivered.

 

[Lissarae06]

How do people report their salaries if they are production based? Do they just guesstimate? I was just wondering if that could skew the survey either way.

 

[su_grad2007]

We discussed debt and salaries yesterday in my professional development class. And for Texas A&M class of 2011, everyone who wanted a job had one by September 1 and the average starting salary was $60,000.

I also think that people who aren't making what they think they should be are more likely to vent on places like VIN than people who are happy with what they are making.

 

[chickenlittle]

To address some of the points mentioned above:

- I know a number of people who were promised pay that was not delivered. Some of these were instances of production-based pay where the owner provided repeated assurances that the practice would support a certain production level and then the clinic finances changed. (Lots of vet clinics are failing right now, so this isn't necessarily a case of deception by the owner... just an unfortunate outcome of the oversupply of small-animal veterinarians). Other people were promised guaranteed salaries but then found out once starting their job that the terms of their contract weren't upheld and their pay/hours were cut. Some people get to keep their salary 'til the end of their contract THEN get a big pay cut. (My third job did this. My boss was reluctant to give me a written contract but I refused to take the position without one. He honored the contract, but dropped my salary 32% at the end of the year with NO corresponding cut in hours. The business was failing, so he had no choice - I don't fault him, but it certainly put me in a bind.) Some people can't find a job with a contract, so they take a job on a verbal offer - which can easily be changed to suit the needs of the business.

- Many people who leave their first jobs do so for very valid reasons. My first boss yelled at me, cussed at me, went behind my back and lied to staff/clients about me, etc. Other employers manage to hide major medical/ethical shortcomings during working interviews, but vets then find themselves doing convenience euthanasias, doing surgery without adequate analgesia (one of my bosses removed an entire mammary chain on a cat without a single dose of pain medication), doing surgery without sterile instruments (I interviewed at a practice that uses the same surgery pack all day with no cleaning between surgeries... I'm not sure how I happened to find that out, but I was glad I did because it was definitely something the owner was trying to hide), etc. Yes, people who leave their jobs may be acting financially irresponsibly, but it'd be even less financially responsible to risk losing your license for malpractice.

I have no reason to be defensive about people in either of these situations. Financially, I'm doing just fine. I'm making more than I ever expected to make as a veterinarian. I'm also making some pretty major compromises, and know that this job is probably not something that I can make work out in the long-term. There are ways to make good money if that's your primary concern. If you're anti-corporate, though, and looking for the type of practice that they talk about in vet school, realize that the finances may not be quite what you're expecting based on the AVMA salary survey.

Sorry to be all gloom and doom, but I just wish that I had known more about these realities before I went into the profession. I know some people may not like to hear it, but I think it's important that this info be available to the public in a searchable message board for people who truly do want to do their research about this profession... because the AVMA certainly is not painting an accurate portrait at this time. (How can they be accrediting new vet schools when there are currently less than 5 open veterinary positions advertised in my state? Where are the graduates of MY state's vet school going to work in May?)

 

[chickenlittle]

I'm dubious, though, that people with lower salaries are less likely to fill out the survey (unless the survey isn't anonymous?).

If I recall correctly (this was a while ago for me), the survey was anonymous but was filled out in our lecture hall... which meant you had classmates sitting right next to you on either side, and there was certainly discussion taking place about what everyone was filling in on their surveys. My first job offered a guaranteed base of $45k but the boss told me that their last associate had made $60k and that's what I should expect... so depending on how the question was worded, I think I may have put $60k instead of $45k (I can't remember).

 

[sooprnova]

This info might be readily available, but I'm tired and lazy and in an airport so....

What about us old people who've already had first careers? I'm crossing my fingers that years of management and "big business" experience will hopefully play into my starting salary (assuming that I get into and finish vet school!). Am I crazy to think this? I'm not banking on it, of course, but it sure would be nice.

 

[heylodeb]

This is a great conversation.

Do you guys think that the number of people pursuing residencies will water down the salaries in the specialists field?

 

[LetItSnow]

Sorry to be all gloom and doom, but I just wish that I had known more about these realities before I went into the profession.

Not at all, I appreciate your forthrightness. I just hope you don't take my questions as being argumentative. I'm sure you can understand how confusing it can be to look at statistical data on the one hand and word-of-mouth on the other and not have them really add up.

 

[chickenlittle]

This info might be readily available, but I'm tired and lazy and in an airport so....

What about us old people who've already had first careers? I'm crossing my fingers that years of management and "big business" experience will hopefully play into my starting salary (assuming that I get into and finish vet school!). Am I crazy to think this? I'm not banking on it, of course, but it sure would be nice.

If you're going into clinical practice, your pay will be dependent on your production. (Regardless of whether you're paid "on production" or salary, you'll get paid approx 20-22% of the revenue you generate for the hospital.) Previous sales experience would likely be helpful in boosting your production, and therefore your pay, but otherwise I wouldn't expect prior work experience to have much bearing on your pay as a vet.

Do you guys think that the number of people pursuing residencies will water down the salaries in the specialists field?

Based on what I'm hearing from a couple of friends of mine who are specialists, that is already starting to happen (increased number of specialists combined with fewer clients who can afford specialty services)... but I haven't talked to enough specialists to say that with any confidence.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

This is a great conversation.

Do you guys think that the number of people pursuing residencies will water down the salaries in the specialists field?

Our salaries are already watered down enough.

However, the AVMA only has the category "advanced study programs". I can guarantee you that means mostly internships. Many people who do internships do not continue on to residency, although some do - they do it in order to be more competent in their chosen clinical field. The number of vets doing residencies (i.e. becoming boarded specialists) is extremely low. There were maybe 3 people in my class of 90 who went directly to residency, and but a good number people pursuing internships. Some of them are going on to residencies that require prior rotating internships, and maybe >half, if not more, are going into clinical practice after "getting their feet wet/gaining experience" (or in some cases, they could not find a job so internship was the only choice) with their internships.

Saying that 52% of vets are specializing is slightly inaccurate.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Saying that 52% of vets are specializing is slightly inaccurate.

oh most def, which is why I said post-DVM training rather than specializing... but the rising number of interns might actually scare me more than the rising number of specialists to be honest, as someone who's not planning on doing either.

We've all heard the warning from the VBMA gurus that it's financially unwise to do an internship without the intent of going through with a residency. But if a majority of graduates do get internship trained, and that fraction keeps increasing, I wonder if it'll almost be expected of new grads to do so in order to be competitive for a job.

 

[sunnex3]

oh most def, which is why I said post-DVM training rather than specializing... but the rising number of interns might actually scare me more than the rising number of specialists to be honest, as someone who's not planning on doing either.

We've all heard the warning from the VBMA gurus that it's financially unwise to do an internship without the intent of going through with a residency. But if a majority of graduates do get internship trained, and that fraction keeps increasing, I wonder if it'll almost be expected of new grads to do so in order to be competitive for a job.

interesting point minnerbelle. at the place where i work (large specialty hospital in the DC area) i've seen 3 intern classes come and go -- and i must say, a vast majority of the interns go on to either a private practice or emergency hospital. last class we only had 1 pursue a surgical residency, and she ended up settling for a surgical internship. this class, we actually have several pursuing residencies (the most i've seen, at least 1/2 are pursuing a residency) while the first intern class that i saw, none of them pursued a residency. i do know that more and more new grads are pursuing an internship not only to gain more experience and get ahead in the field, but from what i've heard from the interns, some do an internship because it's the only job they could find.

sigh...this thread is making me even more nervous about going to vet school. i'd like to specialize too (SA critical care). now i'm uber scared

 

[twelvetigers]

We've all heard the warning from the VBMA gurus that it's financially unwise to do an internship without the intent of going through with a residency. But if a majority of graduates do get internship trained, and that fraction keeps increasing, I wonder if it'll almost be expected of new grads to do so in order to be competitive for a job.

I just got that spiel tonight, actually. At a longer-than-needed meeting at a local restaurant. Cowgirla was complaining about soreness after sitting for so long. I left after 3 hours - had somewhere else to be!

 

[Minnerbelle]

I just got that spiel tonight, actually. At a longer-than-needed meeting at a local restaurant. Cowgirla was complaining about soreness after sitting for so long. I left after 3 hours - had somewhere else to be!

oh grody, that's why i don't go to those and ask for notes later from those who went .

 

[ponio]

I came across this article yesterday from early October of this year: http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dv...Article/detail/742446?contextCategoryId=44854. It is pretty depressing and seems to suggest the numbers are even lower than a lot of the estimates we hear tossed around

 

[Bill59]

Do you guys think that the number of people pursuing residencies will water down the salaries in the specialists field?

Salaries are ultimately set by supply and demand so if you increase supply and demand stays the same, salaries will go down. The big question with specialists right now is whether supply is increasing faster than demand. I think this is happening for some specialties but not others.

 

[LetItSnow]

We've all heard the warning from the VBMA gurus that it's financially unwise to do an internship without the intent of going through with a residency.

As far as I can tell (or remember, or ...) that spiel is purely based on the salary comparison; it turns out that internships don't net you a significantly higher income.

But I don't know that they account for the likelihood that completing an internship makes you a better hire, and thus opens the door to finding a job more easily than someone straight out of school. If that's the case (it seems like it would be), then it may offset the negligible pay increase.

 

[Bill59]

But I don't know that they account for the likelihood that completing an internship makes you a better hire, and thus opens the door to finding a job more easily than someone straight out of school. If that's the case (it seems like it would be), then it may offset the negligible pay increase.

But the appropriate comparison is not someone with a rotating internship vs. new grad, it's someone with a rotating internship vs. someone with 1 year of practice experience. And in that situation, most practice owners don't consider the applicant with an internship more valuable.

A lot of this has to do with the fact that internships were much less common until recently. Most practice owners did not do an internship, have not hired associates with internships and don't place much value on an internship.

 

[LetItSnow]

But the appropriate comparison is not someone with a rotating internship vs. new grad, it's someone with a rotating internship vs. someone with 1 year of practice experience. And in that situation, most practice owners don't consider the applicant with an internship more valuable.

I'm not sure I agree with that, Bill. Because essentially, both the new grad and the person coming out of an internship are vying for the same job: their first associate position. The person who has 1 year of practice is in a lot of cases, already moving on to that second job.

A lot of this has to do with the fact that internships were much less common until recently. Most practice owners did not do an internship, have not hired associates with internships and don't place much value on an internship.

Is there a perception among practice owners that the internship is really a stepping stone to residency and doesn't bring practical value to a clinic?

 

[chickenlittle]

I think Bill's point is that in order for it to be financially advantageous to complete an internship, an internship-trained vet needs to get paid more in their second year of practice than they would without the internship. Of course an internship-trained vet would be preferred over a new grad, but so would a vet with one year experience.... and therefore you can't really compared the two and really need to compare the different ways of spending your first year.

For example, lets say that Student A goes straight into general practice from vet school. They earn $60k their first year and then, because they're becoming more efficient and better at encouraging client compliance, they earn $65k their second year. Therefore, they've earned $125k after two years in practice. If Student B does an internship for only $25k their first year out of school, they need to make $100k their second year to catch up to Student A... or at least be making substantially more than $65k (if you're going to assume that "catching up" may take several years). I'm not sure that will ever happen.

As someone who was recently involved in hiring a new doctor for my hospital, I was definitely more interested in people who had worked for a year than people who had interned for a year. A lot of this may be specific to the hospital I'm working in... communication skills and the ability to come up with a reasonable "Plan B" are the skills that I value most in a newer grad, and I feel that internship-trained new grads are not really any more developed in this area than fresh-out-of-school vets. Yes, they may have higher skills when it comes to ivory-tower-medicine, but that's not the bread and butter of my hospital.... I need someone with communication skills, the ability to get through a busy day of appointments without falling behind, the ability to multitask, etc - and the intern-trained vets that I've met have not convinced me that an internship helps to develop these skills.

Just my two cents, but I wouldn't consider an internship unless I was considering specializing.

 

[LetItSnow]

For example, lets say that Student A goes straight into general practice from vet school. They earn $60k their first year and then, because they're becoming more efficient and better at encouraging client compliance, they earn $65k their second year. Therefore, they've earned $125k after two years in practice. If Student B does an internship for only $25k their first year out of school, they need to make $100k their second year to catch up to Student A...

I understood his point... but I think he didn't understand mine. My point was that he's making an assumption that they're both getting hired; he's only comparing salaries.

But let's say (just to throw out numbers) half of the population of people that fit into the Student A category can't get jobs for a year. Let's also say that out of the Student B population, 80% of them get jobs after that internship.

That could make the internship worthwhile, even if it doesn't lead to a significantly higher salary. (It sounds like you're saying, though, that the internship doesn't make someone more 'hireable' in private practice. At least, in your personal experience.)

In my personal situation it's pretty irrelevant. I need to get out making money immediately - my age and family situation don't really allow for internships and residencies, no matter how interesting I think they'd be.

Either way, I appreciate both you and Bill throwing out real-world perspective.

 

[chickenlittle]

Gotcha. Assuming that our hypothetical grad went a full year without finding paid employment, I think I'd like to see them doing volunteer spay/neuters at an animal shelter or other nonprofit. I'd probably consider even this experience to be more relevant to my practice than an internship, if you really want to know the truth. (No, I'm not a fan of internships... and in my experience, the grads who feel that they need an internship prio to going into practice tend to have confidence/communication issues!)

Still, I think it's unrealistic that our Student A would go a full year without paid employment. It may take a while (four months in the case of the new grad that I recently hired), but eventually that student would be able to find SOME sort of job... maybe only part-time, maybe in a crappy location, and maybe with an awful salary, but I think a full year of complete unemployment is unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Still, I think it's unrealistic that our Student A would go a full year without paid employment. It may take a while (four months in the case of the new grad that I recently hired), but eventually that student would be able to find SOME sort of job... maybe only part-time, maybe in a crappy location, and maybe with an awful salary, but I think a full year of complete unemployment is unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely.

The more I hear about these people with 4 months of unemployment and such (really, any months of unemployment after graduation), the more I can't blame people for choosing to do an internship though. Perhaps it's rare for people to go a full year of unemployment, but by 6 months of unemployment, salaries will kind of equal out if internship is ~$30k, and associate salary is ~$60k. And with an internship, you're guaranteed 1 year of solid experience. Even if an unemployed new grad is doing spay/neuters at shelters and such to gain experience, the uncertainty must be crushing in the meantime. I've seen new grads at shelters doing just that, and their confidence and self-esteem seemed so low, and a lot of that seemed to stem from the fact that they couldn't get a job. I think I can take rejections well from employers while I'm still in school and have time, but I'd think it'd get increasingly more difficult once out and the unemployment clock starts ticking. Even if I know it's not personal, I think it'd be very hurtful to keep getting rejected before being even given the chance to prove myself... esp after years and years of training, and with the NEED for money looming. I personally don't want to do an internship, but I'm not sure what I'd do if it came down to unemployment or internship...

I just really wish we had better and more reliable employment numbers for new grads so that I can assess my personal situation a little better.

 

[Bill59]

I understood his point... but I think he didn't understand mine. My point was that he's making an assumption that they're both getting hired; he's only comparing salaries.

No I'm not. I'm saying this... Johnny and Suzie are applying for the same job. Johnny is a new graduate, Suzie just finished an internship. Everything else being equal, Suzie will have the advantage because she has a year of experience. But I don't think that's a fair comparison, because someone with more experience will always have the advantage.

But let's say Johnny and Suzie gradate the same year. Johnny decides to do an internship and Suzie goes into private practice. A year later, they apply for the same job in a private practice. Now Suzie has the advantage at getting the job.

So if you're a new graduate deciding on whether to do an internship vs. private practice and your ultimate plan is to go into private practice, the better economic decision is to skip the internship because a year later you will be in the better position.

Of course this is a generalization and as with any generalization, there are plenty of exceptions. And there are other, noneconomic reasons someone might want to do an internship.

Is there a perception among practice owners that the internship is really a stepping stone to residency and doesn't bring practical value to a clinic?

I think the perception is that an internship does not provide as much "real world" experience as a year in private practice. I actually don't think this is an accurate perception but that's the perception most practice owners seem to have.

 

[LetItSnow]

So if you're a new graduate deciding on whether to do an internship vs. private practice and your ultimate plan is to go into private practice, the better economic decision is to skip the internship because a year later you will be in the better position.

Sure. But one of the other pieces of the puzzle that you and others have been pointing out is how difficult it is to GET jobs right now. So if an internship makes it much more likely to be hired; then it could easily be worth taking the economic hit for a year to do one.

Right? Wrong?

ETA: I really need to learn to read ALL the responses before responding. I think chickenlittle addressed this point sufficiently.

 

[Bill59]

Sure. But one of the other pieces of the puzzle that you and others have been pointing out is how difficult it is to GET jobs right now. So if an internship makes it much more likely to be hired; then it could easily be worth taking the economic hit for a year to do one.

Right? Wrong?

But it's easier to get a job in private practice than to get an internship; that is, based on AVMA's data, about 75% of new graduates have a job offer at the time of their survey while the VIRMP match rate for an internship is about 45%. So if your goal is to go into private practice, I still think economically you're better off going into practice when you graduate not trying to do an internship.

 

[LetItSnow]

But it's easier to get a job in private practice than to get an internship; that is, based on AVMA's data, about 75% of new graduates have a job offer at the time of their survey while the VIRMP match rate for an internship is about 45%. So if your goal is to go into private practice, I still think economically you're better off going into practice when you graduate not trying to do an internship.

Makes sense to me.

I think it's somewhat ironic that you're using AVMA data that earlier you were implying is suspect. That said, I can't imagine the data is so bad as to not make the point in this context.

This is all moderately reassuring to me, actually, since my plan has always been to go straight into practice. If I were in my 20's I'm not sure what I'd do; perhaps in a way I'm lucky not to really have much choice.