How much do we really need to worry?

[Drbench]

I've been lurking for a while here and would like to ask current OMS their honest opinions. Obviously there's a bias against DOs...BUT let's say you've got great stats (255+ usmle, several relevant publications, connections). Is there really a good reason to believe we w ouldnt match into radiology, derm, ortho, etc? Is the bias really that bad and is it likely to stay this way over the years if it is?
(Btw this is purely hypothetical, I understand the difficulty of achieving these stats)
TIA

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[deleted407021]

I feel like this has seriously been beaten to death so thoroughly that there’s nothing left ...

 

[Drbench]

I feel like this has seriously been beaten to death so thoroughly that there’s nothing left ...

Lol. Any insight?

 

[deleted407021]

Lol. Any insight?

I think basically look at the average successful applicant to your chosen field and do your best to look like them and even better if possible. DOs do face more of an obstacle to those competitive specialties but people match every year. It’s important to stay realistic and that requires looking at the data available online.

 

[DO2015CA]

If you are competitive specialties or bust then don’t go DO. Your time will be better spent improving your application and reapplying MD.

 

[docbsb2015]

Rads yes.... derm and ortho ehh getting pretty tough. MD is still>DO.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Is there really a good reason to believe we w ouldnt match into radiology, derm, ortho, etc? Is the bias really that bad and is it likely to stay this way over the years if it is?

You may match, but you won't match with the 'prestige' that your MD counterparts with even lower stats than you matched. Your road to match day will also be riddled with a lot of anxiety.
Echoing the above, anyone gunning for these specialties should just spend a year or two trying to go MD.

 

[Drbench]

If you are competitive specialties or bust then don’t go DO. Your time will be better spent improving your application and reapplying MD.

Yes, I've obviously thought of this. The issue is there's only so much you can do to improve your application and after this cycle all of my back-ups are gone since I've been accepted to several DO schools (one is a pretty established school 5 min from my house and basically top choice ignoring the fact that it isn't MD). I've seen too many people I know try to improve their app and get rejected year after year even after having seemingly built a very competitive application.

 

[Drbench]

You may match, but you won't match with the 'prestige' that your MD counterparts with even lower stats than you matched. Your road to match day will also be riddled with a lot of anxiety.
Echoing the above, anyone gunning for these specialties should just spend a year or two trying to go MD.

See above. I feel it might be a better idea to take what I've got at this point (DO) and just work on acing USMLE and taking a research year to really get ahead.

 

[Scrubs101]

Depends, obviously if you have the whole package you can worry less than those that dont.

For rads I would not worry about simply matching somewhere for rads with those stats/that application. Matching at a top tier spot? Yeah its gonna be a crap shoot. Mid tier uni? You’ve got a decent shot at it.

Derm/Ortho your best bet is previously AOA, so if your theoretical “connections” are there and you do your aways at these programs and are the type of person to do well on auditions yeah youve got a decent shot. Previously/current ACGME programs? Seems like itll be a crap shoot for any level program, but itll be interesting to see once more top tier DO applicants start throwing their hats in the acgme match here. But at the current rate of aoa programs shutting down (ortho has darn near halved its # of spots unless more programs make it through this gear) and rapid DO expansion in addition to a certain # of do spots going to mds now i would start to consider the current match data we have regarding dos in the acgme match. Theres a functional match data chart out there somewhere that you can plug this theoretical situation into that will give you % matched, dont have the link on me though.

But in all honesty if this is all theoretical, the part you will be most worried about throughout medical school is becoming that perfect applicant you speak of. Having the research and connections coming from a random DO school will be incredibly hard to get most of the time, 255+ on step is a very very impressive feat and is not something that everyone is capable of while juggling all the BS your school will throw at you.

Also this is incredibly relative, im a big time worrier and would very likely have a back up specialty or a plan for not matching even with that application.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

See above. I feel it might be a better idea to take what I've got at this point (DO) and just work on acing USMLE and taking a research year to really get ahead.

In the end, that comes down to a personal decision. Also, I took your hypothetical to mean you were just curious, not that you were specifically interested in these specialties. I think the question you have to ask yourself is this: if you end up in FM or IM, will you still be happy? Or is it competitive specialty or bust?

 

[DO2015CA]

Yes, I've obviously thought of this. The issue is there's only so much you can do to improve your application and after this cycle all of my back-ups are gone since I've been accepted to several DO schools (one is a pretty established school 5 min from my house and basically top choice ignoring the fact that it isn't MD). I've seen too many people I know try to improve their app and get rejected year after year even after having seemingly built a very competitive application.

If you have applied and been accepted your road is written so to speak. Just understand even with all your hard work, good step scores, and research it may still be too much. I am seeing classmates realize that right now with the countdown to match. Radiology is easily within reach but ortho/derm/ent/etc. are a little more of a risk. You have the possibility but just be aware there is a risk that no matter what you do it still might not happen.

 

[EmilKraepelin55]

Yes, I've obviously thought of this. The issue is there's only so much you can do to improve your application and after this cycle all of my back-ups are gone since I've been accepted to several DO schools (one is a pretty established school 5 min from my house and basically top choice ignoring the fact that it isn't MD). I've seen too many people I know try to improve their app and get rejected year after year even after having seemingly built a very competitive application.

I think the best question you want to ask is “do I really want to be a doctor?” If you have an acceptance, DO and no MD, then you have been given the chance to become one and should take it. You are right, there is no guarantee that your application will be good enough next year or the year after to achieve an MD acceptance. Here in the U.S. “typically” if you are good enough to be a DO, then you are good enough to learn how to practice medicine. Doesn’t matter about the letters. Yes, an MD would help with residency applications (mainly the most competitive specialties). This is true. But given the circumstances, a DO is what you are offered and there is really no reason to turn it down in my opinion, unless you are just gunning for plastics, derm etc. But beggars can’t be choosers. Just keep an open mind, that’s all I am saying.

 

[Drbench]

Depends, obviously if you have the whole package you can worry less than those that dont.

For rads I would not worry about simply matching somewhere for rads with those stats/that application. Matching at a top tier spot? Yeah its gonna be a crap shoot. Mid tier uni? You’ve got a decent shot at it.

Derm/Ortho your best bet is previously AOA, so if your theoretical “connections” are there and you do your aways at these programs and are the type of person to do well on auditions yeah youve got a decent shot. Previously/current ACGME programs? Seems like itll be a crap shoot for any level program, but itll be interesting to see once more top tier DO applicants start throwing their hats in the acgme match here. But at the current rate of aoa programs shutting down (ortho has darn near halved its # of spots unless more programs make it through this gear) and rapid DO expansion in addition to a certain # of do spots going to mds now i would start to consider the current match data we have regarding dos in the acgme match. Theres a functional match data chart out there somewhere that you can plug this theoretical situation into that will give you % matched, dont have the link on me though.

But in all honesty if this is all theoretical, the part you will be most worried about throughout medical school is becoming that perfect applicant you speak of. Having the research and connections coming from a random DO school will be incredibly hard to get most of the time, 255+ on step is a very very impressive feat and is not something that everyone is capable of while juggling all the BS your school will throw at you.

Also this is incredibly relative, im a big time worrier and would very likely have a back up specialty or a plan for not matching even with that application.

I know very few DOs match into ACGME residencies for the top specialties but from what I understand this is because the AOA had their own sites. Hopefully this changes within the next 5 years after the merger.

 

[Chibucks15]

I think the best question you want to ask is “do I really want to be a doctor?” If you have an acceptance, DO and no MD, then you have been given the chance to become one and should take it. You are right, there is no guarantee that your application will be good enough next year or the year after to achieve an MD acceptance. Here in the U.S. “typically” if you are good enough to be a DO, then you are good enough to learn how to practice medicine. Doesn’t matter above the letters. Yes, an MD would help with residency applications (mainly the most competitive specialties). This is true. But given the circumstances, a DO is what you are offered and there is really no reason to turn it down in my opinion, unless you are just gunning for plastics, derm etc. But beggars can’t be choosers. Just keep an open mind, that’s all I am saying.

Exactly. Its not like if you delay and get into the MD (in no way a guarantee either) you'll magically become derm/ortho/ whatever and waltz right into residency. Sure it could help, but you still have to work your butt off and it is in no way guaranteed.

There's a chance, if you arent a superstar (which most of us aren't once we get to this point) that you'll end up more towards the primary care/not as competitive specialties anyway. If that were to happen, would it be worth it to have waited a year or more to possibly get in?

 

[Drbench]

Exactly. Its not like if you delay and get into the MD (in no way a guarantee either) you'll magically become derm/ortho/ whatever and waltz right into residency. Sure it could help, but you still have to work your butt off and it is in no way guaranteed.

There's a chance, if you arent a superstar (which most of us aren't once we get to this point) that you'll end up more towards the primary care/not as competitive specialties anyway. If that were to happen, would it be worth it to have waited a year or more to possibly get in?

I understand it takes hard work either way. I understand you can't waltz your way unto derm just because you're an MD. This is nothing new to me.
What I'm worried about is : if I truly try my best and actually am a stellar applicant, is it actually likely that I don't match just because I'm a DO? If so that's just f**king depressing. And I understand I may change my mind, but as of now I'm basically gunning only for a very competitive specialty and am literally willing to do anything it takes to get in as a DO. I truly hope things change over the next 5 years.

 

[Drbench]

Exactly. Its not like if you delay and get into the MD (in no way a guarantee either) you'll magically become derm/ortho/ whatever and waltz right into residency. Sure it could help, but you still have to work your butt off and it is in no way guaranteed.

There's a chance, if you arent a superstar (which most of us aren't once we get to this point) that you'll end up more towards the primary care/not as competitive specialties anyway. If that were to happen, would it be worth it to have waited a year or more to possibly get in?

And at this point I'm hardly convinced that waiting a year or more to get into an MD school is worth it considering how much of a crap shoot it seems to be. I'd rather take my acceptance and make the most of it than hope that I can get into a random MD school within the next few years (which might not happen). Also motivation is a huge factor here. I'm very motivated to start medical school and build connections and publishing research with the good resources that I have, whereas the idea of "possibly improving my application enough for MD acceptance" is extremely unappealing considering how hard it is to get things published and any meaningful research experience as an undergrad. The proccess of imoroving your app for medical school acceptance seems less fruitful than doing the same for building yourself up for residency. The work put in:meaningful results ratio seems to be much better as a medical student. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Chibucks15]

I understand it takes hard work either way. I understand you can't waltz your way unto derm just because you're an MD. This is nothing new to me.
What I'm worried about is : if I truly try my best and actually am a stellar applicant, is it actually likely that I don't match just because I'm a DO? If so that's just f**king depressing. And I understand I may change my mind, but as of now I'm basically gunning only for a very competitive specialty and am literally willing to do anything it takes to get in as a DO. I truly hope things change over the next 5 years.

Its super variable on location, prestige of program, your stats, connections, etc. Do a search there's a billion of these

 

[DO2015CA]

And at this point I'm hardly convinced that waiting a year or more to get into an MD school is worth it considering how much of a crap shoot it seems to be. I'd rather take my acceptance and make the most of it than hope that I can get into a random MD school within the next few years (which might not happen). Also motivation is a huge factor here. I'm very motivated to start medical school and build connections and publishing research with the good resources that I have, whereas the idea of "possibly improving my application enough for MD acceptance" is extremely unappealing considering how hard it is to get things published and any meaningful research experience as an undergrad. The proccess of imoroving your app for medical school acceptance seems less fruitful than doing the same for building yourself up for residency. The work put in:meaningful results ratio seems to be much better as a medical student. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I wouldn’t hold my breath. If it’s change, it’s going to be in the bad way because of all the schools opening. 5 years won’t be enough time to decrease DO bias to any appreciable amount for competitive specialties.

 

[Drbench]

Its super variable on location, prestige of program, your stats, connections, etc. Do a search there's a billion of these

No matter how much I search, I don't seem to have found my answers haha

 

[DNC127]

And at this point I'm hardly convinced that waiting a year or more to get into an MD school is worth it considering how much of a crap shoot it seems to be. I'd rather take my acceptance and make the most of it than hope that I can get into a random MD school within the next few years (which might not happen). Also motivation is a huge factor here. I'm very motivated to start medical school and build connections and publishing research with the good resources that I have, whereas the idea of "possibly improving my application enough for MD acceptance" is extremely unappealing considering how hard it is to get things published and any meaningful research experience as an undergrad. The proccess of imoroving your app for medical school acceptance seems less fruitful than doing the same for building yourself up for residency. The work put in:meaningful results ratio seems to be much better as a medical student. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Just take the DO acceptance and be happy with where the cards fall. You (statistically speaking) most likely won't be a super star, or get pubs, or ace boards and in the event that happens will you be okay with being a (insert non-competitive/moderatively competitive specialty here)? If not then you may want to rethink medicine in general. As a 3rd year who came in wanting a competitive specialty or bust, I can tell you now that (despite still wanting that specialty) I was wrong and that if you are a person with an open mind you will be able to be happy with multiple specialties including some uncompetitive ones. Just do your best and forget the rest.

 

[EmilKraepelin55]

I understand it takes hard work either way. I understand you can't waltz your way unto derm just because you're an MD. This is nothing new to me.
What I'm worried about is : if I truly try my best and actually am a stellar applicant, is it actually likely that I don't match just because I'm a DO? If so that's just f**king depressing. And I understand I may change my mind, but as of now I'm basically gunning only for a very competitive specialty and am literally willing to do anything it takes to get in as a DO. I truly hope things change over the next 5 years.

Most people before they actually start medical school are thinking they will be a “gunner” for the cream of the crop and that they have what it takes. It’s that confidence that in some way has gotten you into medical school in the first place. But, once you start, you will figure out soon enough that your interests will ebb and flow. I applied to medical school thinking I would become an ENT, but soon realized that my true interests lie somewhere non-surgical between FM, IM, psych, or neurology. Perhaps cardiology given my performance on the cardiovascular physiology portion of our curriculum. But my main interest is psych at the moment just given my personality, strengths, interests, desire for more work-life balance and also the feasibility of achieving residency as a DO. However, I know psych is becoming more difficult to match for MD and DO. Not MUCH more competitive, but enough to make me work on the application early in med school. So I ought to figure out early if this is the path I should take. It’s still the same point though: keep an open mind. You may not actually want the ultra-competitive specialties. Just do the best you can, impress people, make the grades, and try to score as high on your steps as possible.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

I am only a first year at a semi-good DO school that is a satellite-campus. We had 2-3 Orthopedic residency matches last match. So, I feel like if my mediocre DO school can pump out 2-3 Orthopods a year, that should be reassurance that it's not the end of the world. Orthopedics really love personalities, and I think that is a tribute to the types of individuals that pursue and excel at Orthopedics - It's more than just grades (you need that too) but it's like a Boy's Club / Fraternity... If you can "hang" and show off your stuff during elective rotations, I think that speaks more to whether or not your an MD / DO. Obviously that won't apply to the major city competitive orthopedic programs in the NE, you have way too much Ivy League competition.

 

[Drbench]

I am only a first year at a semi-good DO school that is a satellite-campus. We had 2-3 Orthopedic residency matches last match. So, I feel like if my mediocre DO school can pump out 2-3 Orthopods a year, that should be reassurance that it's not the end of the world. Orthopedics really love personalities, and I think that is a tribute to the types of individuals that pursue and excel at Orthopedics - It's more than just grades (you need that too) but it's like a Boy's Club / Fraternity... If you can "hang" and show off your stuff during elective rotations, I think that speaks more to whether or not your an MD / DO. Obviously that won't apply to the major city competitive orthopedic programs in the NE, you have way too much Ivy League competition.

Those matches are pre merger. If it weren't for the merger I wouldn't have made this post

 

[KeikoTanaka]

Those matches are pre merger. If it weren't for the merger I wouldn't have made this post

Merger is not all of a sudden going to change old MD programs mindsets on DOs. The application pool only is going to affect old AOA-accredited places. These matches were to ACGME Ortho spots.

 

[Drbench]

Merger is not all of a sudden going to change old MD programs mindsets on DOs. The application pool only is going to affect old AOA-accredited places. These matches were to ACGME Ortho spots.

Are you sure? If I'm not mistaken only 4 DOs matched into ACGME residencies for ortho this year

 

[DNC127]

Merger is not all of a sudden going to change old MD programs mindsets on DOs. The application pool only is going to affect old AOA-accredited places. These matches were to ACGME Ortho spots.

DO ortho spots as of now will be cut nearly in half next year. Those dude that matched ACGME ortho were studs. Nobody can expect to end up like they did. There is a reason 1/4 of the guys in a class say the want ortho at the start of M1 and only a few do it (it aint easy).

 

[DO2015CA]

Merger is not all of a sudden going to change old MD programs mindsets on DOs. The application pool only is going to affect old AOA-accredited places. These matches were to ACGME Ortho spots.

Are you sure? If I'm not mistaken only 4 DOs matched into ACGME residencies for ortho this year

Majority of last years “ACGME” ortho matches were AOA programs that already transitioned over.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

Majority of last years “ACGME” ortho matches were AOA programs that already transitioned over.

Gotcha. Well, hopefully the "culture" at each respective place will still be pro-DO and given the good DO candidates they get, will put a good flavor in their mouth for DOs and they won't be biased in the future

 

[fldoctorgirl]

but as of now I'm basically gunning only for a very competitive specialty and am literally willing to do anything it takes to get in as a DO

This is hard to explain, because everybody thinks they're going to be the superstar student, and if I tell you that statistically you likely won't be, you'll just say "psh, watch me, I'll be that one in a million". Not trying to get you down, but the one specialty or bust mindset is a bad one to enter medical school with, whether you're going MD or DO. We can't predict the future for you and tell you that 5 years from now, you'll be fine to match...no one knows what's going to happen, but from the current looks of things matching ortho and derm is only going to get harder for DOs (and likely MDs too). If you want to be a doctor, take the DO acceptance, try your best to make yourself a competitive future applicant, and go where the chips fall.

 

[Drbench]

This is hard to explain, because everybody thinks they're going to be the superstar student, and if I tell you that statistically you likely won't be, you'll just say "psh, watch me, I'll be that one in a million". Not trying to get you down, but the one specialty or bust mindset is a bad one to enter medical school with, whether you're going MD or DO. We can't predict the future for you and tell you that 5 years from now, you'll be fine to match...no one knows what's going to happen, but from the current looks of things matching ortho and derm is only going to get harder for DOs (and likely MDs too). If you want to be a doctor, take the DO acceptance, try your best to make yourself a competitive future applicant, and go where the chips fall.

I'm telling you what my goals are. I am aware of the odds; I don't need to be reminded.

 

[ritts]

I'm telling you what my goals are. I am aware of the odds; I don't need to be reminded.

don't get butthurt because you got the answer you should've expected

 

[Drbench]

don't get butthurt because you got the answer you should've expected

Unnecessary.
I am simply pointing out that I am well aware of the odds of becoming an outstanding applicant.

 

[DNC127]

Unnecessary.
I am simply pointing out that I am well aware of the odds of becoming an outstanding applicant.

Unfortunately, being an outstanding applicant as a DO isn't always enough.

 

[Drbench]

Look, the point of this thread was to ask a very simple question. Too many responses are trying to answer too many things at once.
Simplified Question: If we put in the work as a DO, does it pay off? Or is it likely that most of these ACGME residencies literally don't even give us a shot with the stats I mentioned? I'd like to believe that if we put in the work we can overcome the bias. I (future med student) am asking you current med students if this is the case or not.

 

[Drbench]

Unfortunately, being an outstanding applicant as a DO isn't always enough.

Just saw this. Thanks for the response. DO you think this will be the case in 5 years?

 

[ohmanwaddup]

Unnecessary.
I am simply pointing out that I am well aware of the odds of becoming an outstanding applicant.

While I see what you are saying, I am not sure that your fully get the odds against you. Protected competitive spots for DO's are about to be gone. In five years when you are matching, the pool of people trying to match is going to significantly bigger than it is right now and if anything, after 5 years of objectively better MD applicants applying to the previous DO only spots, the number of opportunities will be even smaller.

Look at the match data for DOs, the acceptance rate for Ortho was 14 percent, Gen Surg was 50 if I am remembering correctly. It does not necessarily matter how hard you work. By all means go hard and go all out, but if you are not OK being family med, IM, or Peds, don't go to DO school. You keep asking if it will be better in 5 years, are you really willing to gamble 200-300 grand in non dischargeable debt, pre interest, on a small chance that is quite possible only going to get smaller and an answer that faceless online people can only guess about?

 

[EmilKraepelin55]

Just saw this. Thanks for the response. DO you think this will be the case in 5 years?

Who really knows? We can speculate all day, but the fact of the matter is that we chose DO and we have to accept the situation as it currently is and watch the politics as they change leading up to our individual times to apply for residency. My thoughts are that at some point in the future, the DO degree will go the way of the dodo (pun intended) meaning that formerly DO schools will eventually grant MD’s. Osteopathy will still be taught at at previously DO granting schools, and NMM will perhaps still be offered as a fellowship certification for FM. But who really cares about that anyway? Ultimately I just don’t think the stigma will go away until DO schools are held to the same standards as MD schools. . May take 5 years, may take 10. Whatever. Maybe even until those schools are made MD institutions for some PD’s. This question seems moot to me.

 

[ciestar]

Look, the point of this thread was to ask a very simple question. Too many responses are trying to answer too many things at once.
Simplified Question: If we put in the work as a DO, does it pay off? Or is it likely that most of these ACGME residencies literally don't even give us a shot with the stats I mentioned? I'd like to believe that if we put in the work we can overcome the bias. I (future med student) am asking you current med students if this is the case or not.

It might... it might not.

Be aware that there are many, many top programs out there that won’t even interview/rank DOs, despite your application. Bias lies within the PDs themselves as well.

It is hard to say where the merger will take it, but I’d imagine it will take longer than the five year timeline you’ve asked about for any real change to be seen.

 

[DNC127]

Just saw this. Thanks for the response. DO you think this will be the case in 5 years?

yes

 

[eberge3]

Focus your efforts on doing everything in your power to match in those competitive specialties as a DO and prove all the haters wrong. Ive said all along prior to 2020 DO would have been the absolute move if you wanted to go into a competitive specialty because of how less the competition were to be (40 ortho programs for students across 25 schools with the majority of osteopathic students going into primary care).

Who knows how this would change in the future but all you can do is your best and move on with your life journey.

 

[Norwood-Sano]

 

[fldoctorgirl]

While I see what you are saying, I am not sure that your fully get the odds against you. Protected competitive spots for DO's are about to be gone. In five years when you are matching, the pool of people trying to match is going to significantly bigger than it is right now and if anything, after 5 years of objectively better MD applicants applying to the previous DO only spots, the number of opportunities will be even smaller.

Look at the match data for DOs, the acceptance rate for Ortho was 14 percent, Gen Surg was 50 if I am remembering correctly. It does not necessarily matter how hard you work. By all means go hard and go all out, but if you are not OK being family med, IM, or Peds, don't go to DO school. You keep asking if it will be better in 5 years, are you really willing to gamble 200-300 grand in non dischargeable debt, pre interest, on a small chance that is quite possible only going to get smaller and an answer that faceless online people can only guess about?

This is exactly what I was trying to convey, typed out a lot more coherently.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

I've been lurking for a while here and would like to ask current OMS their honest opinions. Obviously there's a bias against DOs...BUT let's say you've got great stats (255+ usmle, several relevant publications, connections). Is there really a good reason to believe we w ouldnt match into radiology, derm, ortho, etc? Is the bias really that bad and is it likely to stay this way over the years if it is?
(Btw this is purely hypothetical, I understand the difficulty of achieving these stats)
TIA

I'm going to make this very simple for you.

If you're a Radiology, Interventional Radiology, Derm, General Surgery, or surgery subspecialty person, the amount of gunning that you need to do to boost that MCAT or GPA for a MD acceptance is 1/20 of the amount of extra effort needed to get one of those specialties as a DO.

For your example, that person will be looking at Harvard/Stanford/UW/Northwestern/Upenn/insert prestigious name here... for Ortho and Derm as a MD. As for a DO with those numbers, your reach will be mid-tier programs with the likelihood of getting into a low tier program at some random BFE place in Oklahoma or Nebraska.

I'm not going into Anesthesiology but I have given it considerable thoughts and done much research. But, to get into UW, UCLA, UCI, USC Anesthesiology, you just need a 230s on your Step 1 as a MD. But, as a DO, you better hit at least 240s with 250s being preferred to even have a shot.

You can talk about how you're going to destroy board. But, it takes a ton of gunning and effort to move from a 230s Step 1 to a 250s Step 1.

TLDR: if you're fine with FM or Peds as a below average student in your class, I would take a DO acceptance. If you're not fine with those two specialties, you need to at least hover around 40-60% with around average Step 1 and Step 2 as a DO applicant to match outside primary care. As for all the fields mentioned at the beginning of my post, you, as a DO applicant, better be at least 70% with multiple pubs and top Step 1 and 2 to even have a chance. Those are my thoughts and info gathered from talking to my seniors. My advice is to get into a research lab, pump out more papers, and boost that MCAT for that MD acceptance. You can do it.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

Look, the point of this thread was to ask a very simple question. Too many responses are trying to answer too many things at once.
Simplified Question: If we put in the work as a DO, does it pay off? Or is it likely that most of these ACGME residencies literally don't even give us a shot with the stats I mentioned? I'd like to believe that if we put in the work we can overcome the bias. I (future med student) am asking you current med students if this is the case or not.

I am essentially the hypothetical situation you described. I'll let you know in a year.

 

[Drbench]

I'm going to make this very simple for you.

If you're a Radiology, Interventional Radiology, Derm, General Surgery, or surgery subspecialty person, the amount of gunning that you need to do to boost that MCAT or GPA for a MD acceptance is 1/20 of the amount of extra effort needed to get one of those specialties as a DO.

For your example, that person will be looking at Harvard/Stanford/UW/Northwestern/Upenn/insert prestigious name here... for Ortho and Derm as a MD. As for a DO with those numbers, your reach will be mid-tier programs with the likelihood of getting into a low tier program at some random BFE place in Oklahoma or Nebraska.

I'm not going into Anesthesiology but I have given it considerable thoughts and done much research. But, to get into UW, UCLA, UCI, USC Anesthesiology, you just need a 230s on your Step 1 as a MD. But, as a DO, you better hit at least 240s with 250s being preferred to even have a shot.

You can talk about how you're going to destroy board. But, it takes a ton of gunning and effort to move from a 230s Step 1 to a 250s Step 1.

TLDR: if you're fine with FM or Peds as a below average student in your class, I would take a DO acceptance. If you're not fine with those two specialties, you need to at least hover around 40-60% with around average Step 1 and Step 2 as a DO applicant to match outside primary care. As for all the fields mentioned at the beginning of my post, you, as a DO applicant, better be at least 70% with multiple pubs and top Step 1 and 2 to even have a chance. Those are my thoughts and info gathered from talking to my seniors. My advice is to get into a research lab, pump out more papers, and boost that MCAT for that MD acceptance. You can do it.

Thanks for the reply.
My issue is that I don't necessarily see how I can make strong improvements to my application that would significantly improve my shot at an MD school. And my MCAT is already pretty strong (513).

 

[Dwan]

Look, the point of this thread was to ask a very simple question. Too many responses are trying to answer too many things at once.
Simplified Question: If we put in the work as a DO, does it pay off? Or is it likely that most of these ACGME residencies literally don't even give us a shot with the stats I mentioned? I'd like to believe that if we put in the work we can overcome the bias. I (future med student) am asking you current med students if this is the case or not.

You can just look at the specialty match rate by step scores (Charting outcomes has this data). It is better to be a US-MD with low scores than a DO with high scores, especially for the surgical specialties, general surgery, and derm; radiology is not as competitive anymore. Doesn't mean it's impossible, but it will be an uphill battle. The most uphill part as many have said, however, will be even getting those step scores. I'm a US-MD who had strong undergraduate stats and worked very hard in medical school (as with most, I "planned" to crush the step), and my board scores were not stellar. I still received top IM interviews but as a DO with these numbers, I likely wouldn't be eligible for mid tiers. Also have friends with average steps that still made it into the competitive fields as US-MD and they weren't exactly outliers (eg among those with 230s, 75% make it into Ortho)

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Thanks for the reply.
My issue is that I don't necessarily see how I can make strong improvements to my application that would significantly improve my shot at an MD school. And my MCAT is already pretty strong (513).

I think @Black Coffee 24/7 said it very well. You scored in the 89%tile on the mcat and you aren't in an MD school? I am missing something here. That score should get you a look by some Ivys, IF, the rest of your app is competetive.For sure the MCAT and Step score isn't guaranteed acceptance, but it should give you a look by the school or residency program. I think having preconditions about medicine or specialties is a mistake and a set up for disappointment. Keep an open mind. Was your med school list not broad and diverse enough? If a competetive specialty is still your mindset, I'd find out what was weak about my app and apply to an MD school. I think beating your head against the wall as a DO to get a competetive residency,(improbable but not impossible), will be lower yield than improving your app and going to an MD school where your chances at matching your residency will improve. This is my opinion after reading your OP and your responses to other posters. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[Deecee2DO]

I understand it takes hard work either way. I understand you can't waltz your way unto derm just because you're an MD. This is nothing new to me.
What I'm worried about is : if I truly try my best and actually am a stellar applicant, is it actually likely that I don't match just because I'm a DO? If so that's just f**king depressing. And I understand I may change my mind, but as of now I'm basically gunning only for a very competitive specialty and am literally willing to do anything it takes to get in as a DO. I truly hope things change over the next 5 years.

There still are a good amount of specialties that are DO "friendly" and it isn't impossible (although still difficult) to match Ortho or surg sub as a DO as long as you aren't picky where in the US you may have to relocate. The specialties that are still open to you as a DO are anesthesia, neuro, psych, PMR, EM, Path, Rads, Peds, IM (endo, allergy, pulm, rheum, cards, GI, nephro, heme/onc), FM, OB, gen surg. Although be warned GI and cards fellowships are competitive so you need to kick butt in IM and/or do your residency at a stronger IM program and gen surg is still a little more on the tougher side but a handful of DOs match Gen Surg every year (~50% according to DO charting outcomes) you just need to be a competitive applicant and not be picky. There are still a lot of great options out there other than Ophtho, ENT, Plastics, Derm, Ortho, NSurg if you are a DO and still these uber competitive ones aren't completely out of reach they are just much much more difficult to match into. If you got into DO school then go. You can still be a physician and declining your acceptance to try for MD is risky IMO

 

[eberge3]

I think @Black Coffee 24/7 said it very well. You scored in the 89%tile on the mcat and you aren't in an MD school? I am missing something here. That score should get you a look by some Ivys, IF, the rest of your app is competetive.For sure the MCAT and Step score isn't guaranteed acceptance, but it should give you a look by the school or residency program. I think having preconditions about medicine or specialties is a mistake and a set up for disappointment. Keep an open mind. Was your med school list not broad and diverse enough? If a competetive specialty is still your mindset, I'd find out what was weak about my app and apply to an MD school. I think beating your head against the wall as a DO to get a competetive residency,(improbable but not impossible), will be lower yield than improving your app and going to an MD school where your chances at matching your residency will improve. This is my opinion after reading your OP and your responses to other posters. Good luck and best wishes!

a 513 is a good score, but def no IVY's. The top DO programs usually average around a 507. There are a lot of reasons why students with that mcat could not have success with MD cycle. It really depends if OP is willing to take more time off and spend more money re-applying and improving his app. At some point it just gets exhaustion and might be better to put his energy into doing well in Med School even if it is a DO. The better end DO programs match 4-6 orthos a year + 1 derm + 1ENT hand full of Rads, maybe even a few urology/vascualr surg. There is no reason why YOU cannot be those people!