How much do we really need to worry?

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Ugh guys, why are you even still talking about the “URM advantage”? Since it sounds like OP is not one, it’s irrelevant to this thread. The main thing is that it sounds like OP has just underestimated the competitiveness of MD admissions. If I read correctly, his/her final GPA was 3.4? Regardless of the 513, OP has a low GPA without any post-bacc work. IDK what his/her school list was, but a lot of applicants have that MCAT and higher GPAs. Even if your essays were solid, they probably needed to be stellar, to help offset that GPA.
 
https://www.aamc.org/download/321498/data/factstablea18.pdf



Omg we have data too!!!!!

If you have a lower gpa and mcat average and get in you are advantaged. They probably apply with awful gpa compared to Asian and white counterparts. Actually they do bc this chart says so.

Everybody should be looked at equally URM shouldn’t even be a thing and sadly op isn’t URM so no free ride for him.


3.4 is a great GPA for URM but bad for Asian/white

So this is relevant.
 
alprazoslam said:
https://www.aamc.org/download/321498/data/factstablea18.pdf



Omg we have data too!!!!!

If you have a lower gpa and mcat average and get in you are advantaged. They probably apply with awful gpa compared to Asian and white counterparts. Actually they do bc this chart says so
Click to expand...
Yup their distribution of ALL MCAT takers is lower compared to Whites and asians. But then the question is do you think that there are no systematic problems that contribute to large differences between median mcat scores? Or do you think the whole population is innately less capable. There is a large correlation between SES and MCAT scores.
 
libertyyne said:
Yup their distribution of ALL MCAT takers is lower compared to Whites and asians. But then the question is do you think that there are no systematic problems that contribute to large differences between median mcat scores? Or do you think the whole population is innately less capable. There is a large correlation between SES and MCAT scores.
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That’s a good question I don’t know the answer to. I don’t think anybody has a solid pinpoint on how much race has to do with intelligent or it’s other factors that come into play. It’s sort of like asking why do the Jewish population hold so many patents per capita. Probably multifactorial.

One thing I would say though is advisors probably give URM the green light at a lower threshold than others in regard when to apply


So do you think they are less capable?
 
alprazoslam said:
That’s a good question I don’t know the answer to. I don’t think anybody has a solid pinpoint on how much race has to do with intelligent or it’s other factors that come into play. It’s sort of like asking why do the Jewish population hold so many patents per capita. Probably multifactorial.

One thing I would say though is advisors probably give URM the green light at a lower threshold than others in regard when to apply
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Thats the point tho, considering SES differences and schooling differences , the mcat differences play out. Even after greenlighting URMs at lower thresholds there are a higher proprotion of them that get shut out of medical school. So , they are disadvantaged in admissions considering a larger proporion of them do not gain acceptance.
Most people who had stats and did not get into an MD school either had problems elsewhere in their application, interviewed poorly, or hailed from an unlucky state. Your state of residence is much more of a factor compared to any URM admissions in your ability to get an MD seat.
 
upload_2019-2-22_10-29-39.png

Its hardly surprising that AA have lower mcat and GPAs considering they are more likely to grow up poor, in poor performing schools.
 
We don’t know 100% which way the pendulum swings further. But thats a hard argument to make when they get in w lower stats. Only way to tell for sure is to have same stats and then look at % acepted
 
alprazoslam said:
We don’t know 100% which way the pendulum swings further. But thats a hard argument to make when they get in w lower stats. Only way to tell for sure is to have same stats and then look at % acepted
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Getting into medical school is the metric. Considering a smaller proportion of applicants get into medical school, its pretty clear the advantage is not really a real advantage. Otherwise we would see a much higher percentage of AA applicants accepted into med school . It would be interesting to exclude HBCU from the MCAT gpa metrics to see what the stats are of AA applicants getting accepted, but thats besides the point.
 
Should physicians represent their patient population? Someone to relate with and understand socioeconomic/culture differences that play a role in medicine. Someone that is more likely to practice in their minority community. I agree the numbers are lower for URM.
 
libertyyne said:
Yup their distribution of ALL MCAT takers is lower compared to Whites and asians. But then the question is do you think that there are no systematic problems that contribute to large differences between median mcat scores? Or do you think the whole population is innately less capable. There is a large correlation between SES and MCAT scores.
Click to expand...
If SES is the main issue, why not control for that alone rather than generalizing someone by their odds of being low SES based on race?
 
Drbench said:
Dodge
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Each school is different in terms of how they evaluate gpa and MCAT, it shouldnt be mind shattering to realize that each school is different on how they evaluate SES.
 
TheRealCookieMonster said:
I completely agree that you should go MD if you can.
But a 513 isn’t earning anyone an MD acceptance without some other very outstanding experiences and good gpa.
Scholarships for a 513?!?! Where?!?!
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Your local state school in almost every state. Almost all students of state schools get some scholarships/financial aid other than loans. I am not saying that a 513 = full ride, rather that you will get some discount on tuition. A 3.4 gpa is within the 10 percentile of most programs. The OP almost certainly did not apply early enough/broad enough, if he was unable to get any interviews.
 
Unrelated to this discussion, I love it when a bunch of premeds get together and cry about how unfair it is for URMs to have any sort of advantage at all, as if that's the only thing preventing some caucasian dude from getting into Harvard Med.

More relevant to this discussion, it's even worse when med students do it. They're already attending a school yet some self loathing/complex tells them they could have done better in applications if only the 1-2 URMs attending their dream school hadn't literally ripped their seats out from their grasp.

Get over it. This thread is about the usual world-ending neuroticism and unnecessary/maybe-sadly-necessary anxiety DOs face about their future. Sheesh.
 
Sardonix said:
Unrelated to this discussion, I love it when a bunch of premeds get together and cry about how unfair it is for URMs to have any sort of advantage at all, as if that's the only thing preventing some caucasian dude from getting into Harvard Med.

More relevant to this discussion, it's even worse when med students do it. They're already attending a school yet some self loathing/complex tells them they could have done better in applications if only the 1-2 URMs attending their dream school hadn't literally ripped their seats out from their grasp.

Get over it. This thread is about the usual world-ending neuroticism and unnecessary/maybe-sadly-necessary anxiety DOs face about their future. Sheesh.
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Strawman
 
Drbench said:
Are you sure? If I'm not mistaken only 4 DOs matched into ACGME residencies for ortho this year
Click to expand...

DO2015CA said:
Majority of last years “ACGME” ortho matches were AOA programs that already transitioned over.
Click to expand...

ATSU-SOMA last year matched ortho spots to UW, University of New Mexico, and LSU.
 
jrlob91 said:
ATSU-SOMA last year matched ortho spots to UW, University of New Mexico, and LSU.
Click to expand...
Wow. If I'm not mistaken there were only 4 total matches from DO to ortho MD residencies correct?
 
The NM one may be different than what was reported to us because I don’t see it on the website but the other two are legit for sure
 
Drbench said:
What exactly is the problem?
Click to expand...
Off-topic inflammatory comments regarding the advantages and disadvantages of medical school applicant groups only serves to alienate all groups. We have specific fora where these arguments (if at least marginally civil) can be entertained. This is not one of them. My previous warning was disregarded by several members.
 
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Hey OP, so a couple of years ago I was like you. I thought that I only wanted to match into competitive specialties, so instead of applying to med school (which I maybe would have gotten MD, but definitely DO) I did a post-bacc bc I did not want to risk going to a DO school with ambitions of being an ortho at HSS.

I did a year of classes and a year of research in my app year. I got multiple acceptances and got accepted at an MD schools I definitely wouldnt have gotten accepted to without my post bacc/research (so in that regards it was a very good decision). Two years later, my interests are much more broad and I am definitely interested in some of the "less" competitive fields (although still considering some competitive fields). Was it worth it? I think so, time will tell. But as an M2, I am definitely a little salty at all my friends who are M4 and getting ready to match now and wish I was with them instead of studying all day for Step 1
 
Frogger27 said:
Hey OP, so a couple of years ago I was like you. I thought that I only wanted to match into competitive specialties, so instead of applying to med school (which I maybe would have gotten MD, but definitely DO) I did a post-bacc bc I did not want to risk going to a DO school with ambitions of being an ortho at HSS.

I did a year of classes and a year of research in my app year. I got multiple acceptances and got accepted at an MD schools I definitely wouldnt have gotten accepted to without my post bacc/research (so in that regards it was a very good decision). Two years later, my interests are much more broad and I am definitely interested in some of the "less" competitive fields (although still considering some competitive fields). Was it worth it? I think so, time will tell. But as an M2, I am definitely a little salty at all my friends who are M4 and getting ready to match now and wish I was with them instead of studying all day for Step 1
Click to expand...

But the fact is you have the option. That’s the OPs whole point. You are making their case. 2 years is 2 year if you want something competitive. You will be infinitely grateful if you waited and got the MD.
 
The 250+ USMLE, research pubs, and amazing letters is all POSSIBLE.

It is just VERY VERY VERY VERY difficult to do so because numerous DO schools will make things VERY HARD for you in terms of administrative BS and other paperwork and rotation requirements to do most of those fields.

You will see this once you hit second year. They REALLY try to secretly limit your advancement in certain areas in terms of studying, rotations, etc.

Why?

Because you are messing with their financial gain by NOT going into PC.

Less PC matches. Less funding and grants.

I know somebody who just matched ENT as a DO. Stellar boards. Crazy pubs. Great letters. She matched AOA.

And we will not have anymore of those AOA spots. They will be ACGME.

SO...

If you wanna take that risk, you can. Anything is possible.

If not... then be happy with family medicine, internal medicine, EM, psych, peds, anesthesia, and/or PM&R.

🙂
 
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QueenJames said:
The 250+ USMLE, research pubs, and amazing letters is all POSSIBLE.

It is just VERY VERY VERY VERY difficult to do so because numerous DO schools will make things VERY HARD for you in terms of administrative BS and other paperwork and rotation requirements to do most of those fields.

You will see this once you hit second year. They REALLY try to secretly limit your advancement in certain areas in terms of studying, rotations, etc.

Why?

Because you are messing with their financial gain by NOT going into PC.

Less PC matches. Less funding and grants.



🙂
Click to expand...
James, this is nonsense. Where are COMs getting extramural funding by having grads to into Primary Care? Most of the COMs (and the AOA) have a mission to get people into PC. That's in their DNA.
 
A 513 and a 3.4 isn't a bad combo if you apply smartly. In this case, if OP is as set on a competitive speciality as they seem to be (and yes, their mind could change, but who knows), I would definitely post-bacc it. If OP can bump their GPA up closer to a 3.6, there's no reason why they couldn't get some love from their state schools (depending on the state obviously) or NYMC tier schools.

I was the opposite applicant-- 3.8+ GPA, average MCAT for my state schools. I know I don't want a competitive speciality, though, so for me the extra year to improve my MCAT wasn't worth it. I would argue in OP's shoes, improving their GPA certainly seems to be worth it, and possible, since they mentioned already having an upward trend.
 
I also think OP should talk about how much exposure he has to medicine. Why is he so certain that he will only want competitive specialties?

Derm and ortho are very different. Does he like surgery? Maybe he would be happy in GS too Does he like MSK? Maybe PM&R would be a good option too.

Before making any rash decisions I recommend trying to shadow some doctors in fields of medicine that you have not yet

OP I thought I only wanted competitive specialties, but the farther I get along in this process the more I learn about how awesome some of the other fields I never thought about are.
 
Goro said:
James, this is nonsense. Where are COMs getting extramural funding by having grads to into Primary Care? Most of the COMs (and the AOA) have a mission to get people into PC. That's in their DNA.
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Goro I'm telling you.

There are CERTAIN schools that are receiving grants for placing their students into underserved areas for primary care. They are a few million dollars worth of grants as well.

Idk how much the schools keep you admin folk in the loop but I'd really look into it.

It isn't any problem for me since it works out that I will most likely be going PC but I just want to make sure those who are disillusioned to it will make the right choice.
 
QueenJames said:
Goro I'm telling you.

There are CERTAIN schools that are receiving grants for placing their students into underserved areas for primary care. They are a few million dollars worth of grants as well.

Idk how much the schools keep you admin folk in the loop but I'd really look into it.

It isn't any problem for me since it works out that I will most likely be going PC but I just want to make sure those who are disillusioned to it will make the right choice.
Click to expand...
They're fulfilling a need. I see no problem.

Can you cite some of the sources of said grants? If what you claim is correct, then my school needs to get on that train!
 
Goro said:
They're fulfilling a need. I see no problem.

Can you cite some of the sources of said grants? If what you claim is correct, then my school needs to get on that train!
Click to expand...
I would be a little more sympathetic if I could actually find some of these alleged grants. Im more along the lines of
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", some of these schools have no relationship with sub-specialty residencies. They would naturally have little clue on how to place people into those fields.
 
Goro said:
They're fulfilling a need. I see no problem.

Can you cite some of the sources of said grants? If what you claim is correct, then my school needs to get on that train!
Click to expand...
The effect of federal grants on medical schools' production of primary care physicians.
Start with Title VII

Funding Instability Reduces the Impact of the Federal Teaching Health Center Graduate Medical Education Program
This is residency but once again more money for primary care - hence why they are the only residencies expanding.

Grants to USA Medical Schools, Hospitals, Nonprofits, and Public Agencies for Primary Care Fellowship Programs
"a) demonstrate a high rate for placing graduates in practice settings having the principal focus of serving residents of Medically Underserved Communities or demonstrate a significant increase in the rate of placing graduates in Medically Underserved Communities settings over the preceding two years;"

Rural Track primary care:
https://www.ruralhealthweb.org/NRHA/media/Emerge_NRHA/PDFs/RTPolicyBrief91513final.pdf
from page 5:
"There is great variability in how RTs are administered and funded. Almost two-thirds run on “soft” funding (grants) and half rely on totally volunteer rural physician clinical faculty. The director and coordinator staffing is often interrelated with other pre-doctoral programs, making it impossible to tease out the effort and funding devoted to operating the RT specifically. Program budgets also vary widely depending on whether scholarships, student travel, and housing at rural clerkship sites are included. Funding comes from a mixture of sources including institutional, state, private foundations, federal grants, and the Area Health Education Center (AHEC). Programs are also reluctant to disclose their budgets. (Figures 3 and 4)"
https://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/_WMS/publications/wmj/pdf/110/3/119.pdf
Just for fun I added another.
 
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Can someone explain the ACGME accreditation process and ehat would cause a former DO residency to die off in the process?
 
QueenJames said:
.

If not... then be happy with family medicine, internal medicine, EM, psych, peds, anesthesia, and/or PM&R.

🙂
Click to expand...

I’m cool with all of these except Peds and Psych. Also does that include most IM subspecialties?
 
BorntobeDO? said:
The effect of federal grants on medical schools' production of primary care physicians.
Start with Title VII

Funding Instability Reduces the Impact of the Federal Teaching Health Center Graduate Medical Education Program
This is residency but once again more money for primary care - hence why they are the only residencies expanding.
Click to expand...
Doesnt incentivize schools .

BorntobeDO? said:
Grants to USA Medical Schools, Hospitals, Nonprofits, and Public Agencies for Primary Care Fellowship Programs
"a) demonstrate a high rate for placing graduates in practice settings having the principal focus of serving residents of Medically Underserved Communities or demonstrate a significant increase in the rate of placing graduates in Medically Underserved Communities settings over the preceding two years;"
Click to expand...
This requires a fellowship set -up, seems like it might be catered to PAs. No money without fellowship. Also is a post UG medicine education training.


BorntobeDO? said:
Rural Track primary care:

https://www.ruralhealthweb.org/NRHA/media/Emerge_NRHA/PDFs/RTPolicyBrief91513final.pdf
from page 5:
"There is great variability in how RTs are administered and funded. Almost two-thirds run on “soft” funding (grants) and half rely on totally volunteer rural physician clinical faculty. The director and coordinator staffing is often interrelated with other pre-doctoral programs, making it impossible to tease out the effort and funding devoted to operating the RT specifically. Program budgets also vary widely depending on whether scholarships, student travel, and housing at rural clerkship sites are included. Funding comes from a mixture of sources including institutional, state, private foundations, federal grants, and the Area Health Education Center (AHEC). Programs are also reluctant to disclose their budgets. (Figures 3 and 4)"
https://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/_WMS/publications/wmj/pdf/110/3/119.pdf
Just for fun I added another.
Click to expand...

Most of those are MD schools.

upload_2019-2-23_23-39-40.png


Still not particularly convinced that this is a thing. The rural track program only has a placement in PCP @44% and doesnt seem like they are penalized if students choose otherwise. I intervewed at one of the schools where rural track was a thing, it was an opt in program.
 
Drbench said:
I understand it takes hard work either way. I understand you can't waltz your way unto derm just because you're an MD. This is nothing new to me.
What I'm worried about is : if I truly try my best and actually am a stellar applicant, is it actually likely that I don't match just because I'm a DO? If so that's just f**king depressing. And I understand I may change my mind, but as of now I'm basically gunning only for a very competitive specialty and am literally willing to do anything it takes to get in as a DO. I truly hope things change over the next 5 years.
Click to expand...

Why are you, a pre-med, "basically gunning only for a very competitive specialty"? It honestly seems like you've adopted a narrow-minded, prestige-oriented mindset. You want to enter any ultra-competitive specialty just because it's ultra-competitive? You want to devote decades of your life to an ultra-competitive specialty just so that you can pat yourself on the back every day and say, "Wow, what I'm doing is so competitive"? I hope you reflect on your thought process.

Anyway, there's no way around it: when you choose to go to DO school, you close doors for yourself. If you can't bear having any doors closed, then go to a US MD school... preferably a good one. If you just want to be a physician and would be willing to enter a primary care field, then go to DO school. Good luck.
 
Goro said:
They're fulfilling a need. I see no problem.

Can you cite some of the sources of said grants? If what you claim is correct, then my school needs to get on that train!
Click to expand...

I'll look into it and DM you.
 
ThrowawayShmoaway said:
Probably from this:
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LMAO. I didn't realize I worded it that way. Yea I'm not gunning for a competitive specialty just for the sake of it being competitive. It just so happens that my current interests are competitive.
Sorry osminog. Lololol
 
libertyyne said:
Doesnt incentivize schools .


This requires a fellowship set -up, seems like it might be catered to PAs. No money without fellowship. Also is a post UG medicine education training.




Most of those are MD schools.

View attachment 251962

Still not particularly convinced that this is a thing. The rural track program only has a placement in PCP @44% and doesnt seem like they are penalized if students choose otherwise. I intervewed at one of the schools where rural track was a thing, it was an opt in program.
Click to expand...
On the Title VII funds I had a misread - there was a coorelation, but your right there wasn't a direct payment for primary care grads, just an incentive to start a family med residency, similar to the second link, which I only added because it was interesting.

And while most of the rural track highlighted by that article may have been MD, there is no doubt that many of the, especially newer, DO schools are getting the same kind of benefit.
Also the fact that it was mostly MD more than accounts for the reason that only 44% were matching primary care from them. There are small grants that also incentivize schools, but its hard to find any schools confessing their sources as the rural track article indicated. And while some DO schools don't have a rural track, many have a rural primary care focus and undoubtedly benefit from the same funds.

There is no doubt that at least some DO schools do get benefits for this tho.
 
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