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Seems like the Republic is running low on cash
How much does salary matter to you?
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Seems like the Republic is running low on cash
Yeah but what my pal means to say is 700 k in san francisco is actually a cardboard box. You cant have your kids in a cardboard box now can you.
Debt is getting crazy. My state school cost 170K about 10 years ago, now about 265K...think rule of thumb is that total student debt should be less than anticipated 1st year earnings after training
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AnatomyGrey12
Sorry man but girls like that tend to not even notice people who get so nervous in front of them they can't talk. If you can't talk to a normal, cute nurse even to ask for vital signs how on earth do you expect to snag a model?
at least 400k hopefully. The amount of money you lost on your education/lost earnings is HUGE. Compare to your friends similar to you in other fields. Dont compare to people who couldn't pass high school and dropped out. I spent 250k on medical school, going up at 6% interest, and at the same time lost 4 years of earning minimum. Law friends are now Associate 3s, making ~200k/yr. CS friends working in tech making 150-200+, business friends are making mid 100s not including investment bankers. And they work fewer hours w less liability!
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I didn't go into ortho for the salary, but it certainly helps me to justify my (often crazy) work schedule. I love what I do, and would still do it, even if I made half as much... but at the end of the day, it is nice not to worry about money, and to know I don't have to rely on anyone to buy me the things I want.
Do you mind us asking how much you make? Just so we can all get the oooo awwwwww of becoming a doctor.
I talked a little about this in my AMA, but I make enough to have a nice sports car, and not worry about most things... But you can look up the averages pretty easily on the Internet, or the AAOS site. Plus, it's very location dependent so my telling you doesn't mean you can/will make the same. I know some private orthopods in one area who make 350K, and some in another part of the country who make 1.5 million.
The "ooo aww" by the way, comes with an 80 hr workweek, and the dubious honor of dealing with trauma patients 😉 ....the work is still worth it though.
Salary literally determines your life outside the hospital. I cannot think of anything more important. It determines how much you have to work, where you can live, what you can eat, what you can do for fun and how well you will be able to provide for your family. Anyone who thinks it doesn't matter is delusional. More money = more time off = more fun.
average ortho salary is over 500k, they are the highest earners in medicine based on average. there are ortho surgeons here making several million a year. pretty much only surgical fields can make into the 7 figures.
Nothing is more important than salary? How about the quality of your relationship with your significant other? Your personal health? Whether you can go home at night and sleep, or toss and turn because you're doing unethical crap?
More money = more time off with my wife = healthier relationship. If I had to work 4-5 more days a month our relationship would suffer. For my personal health I would spend less time at work and more time relaxing and outdoors thereby increasing my health and longevity.
Just because I make more money doesn't mean I am doing anything unethical, just means I negotiated a better deal like a baller.
Nothing you have said makes any sense whatsoever to me btw. I think you're either young and naive or just plain delusional.
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AnatomyGrey12
Where are you getting those numbers? Every report I've seen has neuro with the highest median.
All of what you said may be true for you, but study after study caps happiness at something like $75,000ish - a relatively low amount of money. I heard a psychologist say that money's influence on happiness caps when you've made enough to keep the debt collectors at bay and the bills paid. The rest is up to you.
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Studies like that are subjective garbage. You can objectively quantify blood pressure, cholesterol, and all cause mortality. You can't quantify an emotion without a subjective component. Having people rate their happiness on a scale is about as useful as painscales in the emergency department. Also, why should I care what some study shows when the only n I care about is one: me.
The people I see who are unhappy doctors are the ones bound to their jobs without lives outside the hospital. But what do I know since it's not a "study."
The point of my post was that you can't escape money, ever. It determines your life because it's the means of exchange in this country (duh). So what you need to do is find a job you like, a place you want to live and a social status level you're ok with living and then make as much money possible so then you can work as little as possible. For anyone who enjoys work more than time off, you need to get a better life cause that's craaaaazy.
This is a trigger warning. If you are a psychologist dont read this.
Some people have too much free time on their hands, and some people are literaly *****s. What every psychologist did that study is a ***** and has too much free time. Also they have no clue how to survey anything because I guarantee you 6,999,999,9999/7 billion people in this world would be happier with a salary greater than 75 k (which is a piss poor dirt salary btw)
A lot. If I had no student loans, limited malpractice liability, and 40 hour weeks, I would be happy to take $150k a year in FM. I'd even be willing to negotiate a little.
Unfortunately that is not the world I live in. I will be about $400k in debt, and let's face it, no woman I've ever met wants to be in a long-term relationship with a guy in his late 30s who can't afford a down payment on a home.
It kind of sucks because I think I'd be a great FP or psychiatrist. People who say "do what you're passionate about" are usually those whose parents paid for medical school for them, or haven't yet caught their significant other cheating on them with someone who doesn't study/work 80-90 hours a week.
I decided to go to medical school because I think I'd be happy in any field of medicine (though surgery can f**k right off with those hours). I need to be happy in the rest of my life, also.
Unfortunately that is not the world I live in. I will be about $400k in debt, and let's face it, no woman I've ever met wants to be in a long-term relationship with a guy in his late 30s who can't afford a down payment on a home.
It kind of sucks because I think I'd be a great FP or psychiatrist. People who say "do what you're passionate about" are usually those whose parents paid for medical school for them, or haven't yet caught their significant other cheating on them with someone who doesn't study/work 80-90 hours a week.
I decided to go to medical school because I think I'd be happy in any field of medicine (though surgery can f**k right off with those hours). I need to be happy in the rest of my life, also.
On the one hand you argue that time away from work is one of the most important factors in happiness and then simultaneously argue that money is the most important factor because, in essence, it is frozen desire. You also assume work is something to be avoided.
My definition of the good life is having a good balance of things in life - good relationships, meaningful contribution to others, learning and discovery, the income to do what I want, and a balance of labor and leisure.
Someone comes from extreme privledge
75k is probably 70th percentile of households in America. I believe even SF's median household barely breaks this mark.
Lol...
Exactly, you have your own beliefs about money and its apparent correlation with happiness - and said correlation may be significant in your life. However, you talked down on someone else for having a different opinion, like your view on the matter is unarguable and applies to everyone - which is ridiculous.
I'm not going to even respond to this.
Im suspicious of those studies as well, Im pretty sure they include retired folks. The minimum wage is something like 12-15 dollars in that area. Which means if you have a married minimum wage earning couple you have a net salary of 50,000. most blue collar workers dont live in SF though, they live across the bridge in oakland or cheaper areas like san jose and commute.
Anyhow, 75k doesn't allow much freedom at all, especially if you include kids in the study, which is why I think the study is garbage.
If you have 75 k as a salary you probably keep something around 45 k. Rent/mortgage is something around 8000-10000 a year (I am currently studying in a cheap midwest town paying 790 month/1 bedroom) . That leaves you with 35 k, to feed yourself, save, pay for bills etc. Doesnt go a long way if youre purchasing a car or saving for your child's undergraduate degree. So I would probably move the mark way higher than 75 k for happiness.
I just said they were either young and naive or delusional. Neither of which were disproven yet. You can argue all you want I don't care. Nearly every single person on this planet (yourself included) would take free money and be happier because of it. I'm at work making over 2x an hour of what the op originally quoted at a job I enjoy posting on this forum watching people think that money doesn't matter over 75k. I told that to my partner and he burst out laughing btw. Good stuff. Keep going.
Time away from work is determined by how much money you make once you determine what socioeconomic status you want to obtain. The two are basically equivalent so I use them interchangeably.
It's funny because that is exactly what I am arguing, finding what you want to do in life and then working x amount of time to obtain that, not just working because you "want more money."
I enjoy my job but I enjoy my days off 10x as much (sometimes 100x as much when I'm snowboarding or mountain biking). That's the difference. Being free and flying down a mountain. Medicine will never touch that.
This is an online forum, you honestly think anyone cares what 'your partner' thinks? Don't be calling someone young and naive while acting like a petty child yourself. Come on now.
For the record - I don't actually disagree with a lot of what you are saying. Anyways, there isn't enough actual discussion in this thread for me to stick around - for that reason I'm out. *Shark Tank plug*
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Not necessarily money, but time that's able to be spent with a significant other, and debt load - that she might be responsible for.
Amen brother, haven't even started and already planning how to gtfo
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Yeah actually I'm sure a lot more people on this forum value the opinion of two practicing attendings than you. For sure I do.
While I lived just fine as a resident now that I'm over 5x my residency salary on 4 days/40 hours a week, life is better. I'm buying a nice house in a gated neighborhood two months post-residency and while I don't have much of a downpayment after my mortgage and IBR payments I still have thousand of dollars take-home/month to work with. Money is important. The schedule you choose is important. Quoting the $75,000 study doesn't mean anything because those people didn't go through what we went through. We're not just talking about "the basics" here, or having "enough". Obviously a persons mindset is important regardless of their income but once training is over for us, its time to recognize the position we're in and take full advantage of it. We're talking about loads of money and satisfaction to recover post-residency, to pay off loans, to indulge in hobbies and interests, to build your wealth, to enjoy the position of a physician (including the job market and telling people to f-off if we don't get what we want), to altogether having the opportunity to live great lives far beyond the common working man because we're not the common working man. Don't sell yourself short, we went through a lot of crap to get to where we are. The moment I started interviewing for jobs I thought to myself "how can I get the highest salary, with the least amount of time, with moderately challenging patients I find occasionally interesting?" I don't know about the $75,000 study but I do work with a psychiatrist who makes about $400,000 a year working 50-55 hrs/week (this includes moonlighting) and he's got a big smile on his face all the time; everything is paid off, all the retirement and college funds are maxed, he's got plenty of time and money left over to enjoy himself, he's got plenty of energy and patience to deal with whatever comes up at work. We should all strive to be like that.
My question is, how realistic is that? Considering a physician's salary of even 250k, how can you make even a quarter of that net passively?
Agree with this.
75k is easy mode in the real (non-medicine) world.
125k you're working hard
250k you're always working
Srs.
The difference is that the tech industry is much more adaptable and fluid than the auto industry. Auto is very high overhead due to production cycles, and subsequently more volatile and cyclical.
IT is becoming more and more ubiquitous, and as a result the workers will most likely always be fine as EVERYTHING moves into the internet.
Do I think there's a bubble? Hell to the yeah. But at the same point I think the reason Detroit is a waste land has more to do with the demise of unskilled labor in the US than it does with the "bubble" of the US auto industry.
Thats nuts.
Location. Location. Location.
Higher housing cost --> Higher property tax --> More $$ --> Better teachers.
I would say anywhere between 200-250K. Little more than this and you start working for the government and taxes. Why I would advise to cut back on hrs if you can at some point and do other stuff you enjoy as well. Get loans paid off, house paid down, and relax.....college fund for kids started.
TO note, the area of the country you live in plays a major role as well. I speak for the Southeast take out Florida. I would add aniother 50-100K for there.
By building a practice that hires employees and investing heavily in real estate. Nurse practitioners require zero oversight and can easily be hired into a practice in a high saturation area like mine at rates that show for a considerable (60-100k) profit. Basically I plan to drop all of my earnings into building a decent size practice and a rental portfolio that is managed by a PMC. To replace a physician's income, I need either four profitable employees or ten decent rental properties. Neither of these things is impossible.
Houses and property taxes are ridiculous here. Teachers still make crap.
That district is an anomaly, California in general doesn't pay that high.
www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/07/14/the-5-highest-and-lowest-paying-states-for-teachers-in-the-us.html
May be true. When we first got there I was 11. I moved from Rhode Island. I bragged my father was making 250 k that year at his new job, they all laughed 😀. This district along with neighboring ones houses mark zuckerberg and the other tech people in his possy netting 10's of millions a year and putting a large amount of it into state and county taxes.
Clearly salary matters a lot to me. That's why I'm doing a two year fellowship that leads to a job that decreases my earning potential. That is, a hospitalist will make as much (if not more) than an Endocrinologist, and I could be $500k ahead of where I am right now earningswise had I just gotten a job out of residency.
Look, the research cited earlier in this thread is actually very well supported: When it comes to income and happiness, there is a threshold effect. After a certain point, whether thats $70k or $100k or something else, adding more money might get you nicer stuff, but it won't necessarily make you *happier*. You can easily imagine someone making $250k saying that if they made $450k, they'd be able to afford suites on their cruises (rather than just a balcony room), or $20k watches rather than $5k watches. Or a house that's a bit bigger. And they might get some momentary joy out of that. But the overall picture of happiness doesn't change once you hit a threshold of economic stability.
So what does matter at that point? Well, how much control you have over your life is a big one. Control in your professional environment. Intellectual satisfaction in your work. Time you get to spend doing what you want to do. If you were to offer me two options where that's the big difference, I know which I would pick. Lets say you could make $100k/year as a toll operator vs making $75k/year as an architect for the rest of my life, I'd pick the $75k/year as an architect any day of any week. Because the former job would make me miserable. Hence why I'd rather be in a field I enjoy even if it doesn't make the same amount of money.
Now, if my love was medical genetics (where they struggle to crack $100k/year) as opposed to some other type of physician (where even pediatricians make double that if they actually work full time)? I'd probably give up on the medical genetics. But assuming I'll make my $230k or $250k as a starting Endocrinologist even if it isn't the $500k I'd be making if I had wanted to do Cardiology? Meh. I'll wear my $5k watch and smile on my way to work each day.
Look, the research cited earlier in this thread is actually very well supported: When it comes to income and happiness, there is a threshold effect. After a certain point, whether thats $70k or $100k or something else, adding more money might get you nicer stuff, but it won't necessarily make you *happier*. You can easily imagine someone making $250k saying that if they made $450k, they'd be able to afford suites on their cruises (rather than just a balcony room), or $20k watches rather than $5k watches. Or a house that's a bit bigger. And they might get some momentary joy out of that. But the overall picture of happiness doesn't change once you hit a threshold of economic stability.
So what does matter at that point? Well, how much control you have over your life is a big one. Control in your professional environment. Intellectual satisfaction in your work. Time you get to spend doing what you want to do. If you were to offer me two options where that's the big difference, I know which I would pick. Lets say you could make $100k/year as a toll operator vs making $75k/year as an architect for the rest of my life, I'd pick the $75k/year as an architect any day of any week. Because the former job would make me miserable. Hence why I'd rather be in a field I enjoy even if it doesn't make the same amount of money.
Now, if my love was medical genetics (where they struggle to crack $100k/year) as opposed to some other type of physician (where even pediatricians make double that if they actually work full time)? I'd probably give up on the medical genetics. But assuming I'll make my $230k or $250k as a starting Endocrinologist even if it isn't the $500k I'd be making if I had wanted to do Cardiology? Meh. I'll wear my $5k watch and smile on my way to work each day.
You are a rich kid. We get it. We actually got it about 8 posts ago.
Quite frankly I'm pretty shocked with the responses in this thread, with people saying that they'd be happy with salaries from 75k to 125 or that going from 125-250 would do nothing for their personal happiness. Although it is admirable that these people love medicine enough to do it for such little compensation, I do not understand it at all.
As people have mentioned in this thread before me, medicine demands personal and financial sacrifices that few, if any, careers have. 4 years of undergraduate, 4 years of medical school, and 3-7 years of training are the minimum. It is becoming increasingly common to have gap years in between college and med school, and time off during med school to pursue research and other degrees, increasing the financial burden. Medical school training costs anywhere from 150,000 to 400k plus all at compounding interest rates. Tack on college tuition. Residency pays low salaries. Add the personal responsibilities of finding a partner and starting a family during all of this too - how many of us have seen relationships break down in medicine?
Once training is over there are liabilities that few careers have to deal with. All of this happens while physician compensation continues to go down
Other career options have much more stable hours, more years of earning, are less emotionally and physically taxing, have lower barriers to entry and can still pay 100-200k. I do not think it is unfair for docs to expect a higher salary (250-400) given the sacrifices they make to become an attending
As people have mentioned in this thread before me, medicine demands personal and financial sacrifices that few, if any, careers have. 4 years of undergraduate, 4 years of medical school, and 3-7 years of training are the minimum. It is becoming increasingly common to have gap years in between college and med school, and time off during med school to pursue research and other degrees, increasing the financial burden. Medical school training costs anywhere from 150,000 to 400k plus all at compounding interest rates. Tack on college tuition. Residency pays low salaries. Add the personal responsibilities of finding a partner and starting a family during all of this too - how many of us have seen relationships break down in medicine?
Once training is over there are liabilities that few careers have to deal with. All of this happens while physician compensation continues to go down
Other career options have much more stable hours, more years of earning, are less emotionally and physically taxing, have lower barriers to entry and can still pay 100-200k. I do not think it is unfair for docs to expect a higher salary (250-400) given the sacrifices they make to become an attending
That rule is extremely unrealistic for medicine. Lots of schools have a COA pushing $70-80k a year. A handful exceed $100k.
What about the cost to get there though? How do you reconcile this statement with the opportunity cost of GME? They just mentioned that neurosurg is probably the highest-paid specialty, but isn't it 7 YEARS of 80+ weeks before you're actually making the big attending salary? That doesn't sound like more money = more time off with my wife. I don't really know the lifestyle of NS attendings, but do they really have as much time off as direct-primary care doc?
If you're already in a long-term relationship, does the end justify the means? Is making $700k+/yr worth it if your wife is the only one that can spend it because you're constantly working? Or if your spouse leaves you because they couldn't handle 5+ years of you basically living at the hospital?
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This is why it absolutely baffles my mind that NS is so competitive. The hours required of someone in NS blow right past the point of "not worth it for the money." I don't care if you paid me 50 million a year - finishing a 7 year neurosurgery residency to a $1.2m/year attending position (where you still need to work residency hours), with your life a smoking dumpster fire, is about as pyrric of a victory as you can get.
The big thing that people are just talking past each other on is how much each of us values our free time. Obviously everyone wants downtime, but the value of that isn't set in stone and many of you seem to be missing this. For example, If it's the same job I'd rather work 5ohrs/wk and make 150k/yr than work 100 hour weeks and make $500k. I value my relationship and non-work life too much for that. Plenty of other people would have the total opposite perspective and sacrifice 10 years of their life busting their butts so they can retire early. Ymmv.
It also obviously depends on how much you enjoy your job. If I had to be a hospitalist, I'd rather bust my butt for 5-7 years and retire so I'd never have to deal with that crap again than have an easier schedule and do it for 30 years. It's all a matter of diminishing returns combined with general outlook on life. If you just want to be that spoiled kid that plays with their toys all day and never has to work, then obviously income is more important (especially if you like expensive toys). If you gain self-actualization through actually working with people and accomplishing something, then the importance of that financial aspect decreases.
Personally, I don't plan on ever retiring. When I get too much free time I get bored and restless. So I'd just like to get to a point when I can work 2-3 days a week and not have to worry about money. Before that, I'll be happy with a 50 hour work week that allows me enough income to support a moderate house, a nice vacation twice a year, and put my kids through college without killing the bank, which is about $150k/year where I live (currently have a 2,700 sq ft, 3bed/1bath house for 900/mo total in a decent neighborhood in the city).
It also obviously depends on how much you enjoy your job. If I had to be a hospitalist, I'd rather bust my butt for 5-7 years and retire so I'd never have to deal with that crap again than have an easier schedule and do it for 30 years. It's all a matter of diminishing returns combined with general outlook on life. If you just want to be that spoiled kid that plays with their toys all day and never has to work, then obviously income is more important (especially if you like expensive toys). If you gain self-actualization through actually working with people and accomplishing something, then the importance of that financial aspect decreases.
Personally, I don't plan on ever retiring. When I get too much free time I get bored and restless. So I'd just like to get to a point when I can work 2-3 days a week and not have to worry about money. Before that, I'll be happy with a 50 hour work week that allows me enough income to support a moderate house, a nice vacation twice a year, and put my kids through college without killing the bank, which is about $150k/year where I live (currently have a 2,700 sq ft, 3bed/1bath house for 900/mo total in a decent neighborhood in the city).
Uhh, this is slightly old, but it says all you need to know
and this one for the last generation of doctors. Money has always mattered. Even before student loans
and this one for the last generation of doctors. Money has always mattered. Even before student loans
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You bean-counters amuse me. Money is only valuable because of our collective beliefs and values.
What matters is growth of value that underlies money. Starting with the lowest salaries in medicine are totally fine with me, if I grow at least 10% a year average in total value provided to humanity, because even a pediatrician can have more than enough to live comfortably. If that's ortho, I'd do it; if not, then no point - otherwise you should just become a high level banker as you'd make much more. The status quo only blinds people to the truth.
I.E. Priscilla Chan the Pediatrician value >>> random ortho guy value
Right now, I envision a top neurology, oncology/RadOnc or ID program to being the best value by induction, not deduction.
Why am I qualified? I made more than ortho surgeon in the first year of medical school.
What matters is growth of value that underlies money. Starting with the lowest salaries in medicine are totally fine with me, if I grow at least 10% a year average in total value provided to humanity, because even a pediatrician can have more than enough to live comfortably. If that's ortho, I'd do it; if not, then no point - otherwise you should just become a high level banker as you'd make much more. The status quo only blinds people to the truth.
I.E. Priscilla Chan the Pediatrician value >>> random ortho guy value
Right now, I envision a top neurology, oncology/RadOnc or ID program to being the best value by induction, not deduction.
Why am I qualified? I made more than ortho surgeon in the first year of medical school.
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