How Much Volunteering While Working?

[ForgotBoutJay]

Hello,

So I am a New Yorker planning to re-apply to allopathic schools for my third time. The first was in 2014 for 2015 admission, during my junior year of college. I had two interviews and was waitlisted at both. The second time was this past year during 2017 for 2018 admission. This time around I was offered no interviews.

I graduated in May 2015 with a Bachelor of Science in Chemistry, ACS certified from a SUNY state school and then graduated in May 2017 with a Master of Public Health in Epidemiology from NYU. I'm currently working full-time as a report analyst, reading clinical peer reviews and independent medical examinations for no-fault insurance cases.

-2012 Institutional Action, non-academic disciplinary probation for possession of marijuana, no legal action
-The case has been closed and is nonreportable since 2014, but I still report it on all of my apps

Undergrad experience:
-Gen physics lab TA- 1 semester
-Gen chem lab TA- 4 semesters
-Global medical brigades Vice President- 3 semesters
-Two medical/public health missions to Honduras
-100 hours of shadowing
-250 hours of emergency room volunteering (senior year of highschool into summer before college)
-Inorganic chem synthesis research w/o publication- 3 semesters
-33 MCAT (92nd %, 12 PS, 11 VR, 10 BS)
-3.4 cGPA, 3.5 sGPA
-Committee letter with LoR from gen chem lab TA supervisor, inorganic chem research PI, and shadowing attending

Grad experience:
-Full time job as a report analyst (2 years)
-Masters thesis analyzing alcohol, obesity, and smoking syndemic on chronic disease comorbidity using the large scale BRFSS dataset
-Part time neurocritical care research (use of flow diverting stents in the treatment of vertebrobasilar aneurysms) abstract presented at 15th Neurocritical care conference, and upcoming manuscript- 1.5 years
-3.7 GPA
-Additional LoR added to committee letter from thesis advisor, epidemiology advisor, and neurocritical care PI

Just started:
-Another part time research position (microbiome bioinformatics and epidemiology)- 4 hours per week
-ED Volunteer (only clinical contact, involves checking in on every patient, cleaning, getting supplies, transport, answering call bells, running lab work, getting prescriptions, etc)- 4 hours per week
-Additional LoR added to committee letter from ED volunteer director (already expressed desire to write me a shining letter to help me on my path to medicine)
-Animal shelter volunteer- 4 hours per week

So I'm currently studying for the new MCAT, roughly 25 hours a week, and plan on taking the MCAT on May 19th to get the score back on June 19th. I no longer feel comfortable applying to schools based on my perceived merit and will be waiting to get my MCAT score back before I make my list of schools to apply to.

I'm pretty sure my failed applications were due to a lack of volunteering, so I have recently started more volunteering opportunities. However, I am very limited in terms of accumulating hours, as I work full time 9-5 weekdays. By my estimates, I will only have around 100 new hours of clinical volunteering by the time I submit my AMCAS for verification, probably around 6/20/18. I also feel as though I should do more shadowing, as the majority if my shadowing was from 2013. But it's very difficult to find a doctor to shadow on a weekend, as well as the time while working, doing two other volunteering activities, research, and studying.

So the big question is should I postpone my 3rd application by another year (instead of 2018 for 2019 admission, 2019 for 2020 admission), while stagnating at a job I hate, following up with PIs who are too busy to finish manuscripts, and hoping I can maybe get 1-2 publications under my belt, all so I can add another 100-200 hours of volunteering? Or will everything else I have added make up for the lack of volunteering. As it's my third cycle, I'm fully committed to my goal of medicine and know that this is what I want to do with my life, but I'm growing less and less confident of my abilities with each failed cycle.

Any advice is appreciated, thanks!

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[Trollest]

I suspect it' the IA. However, as a teapplicant you are also expected to have more hours.

 

[CQREZ]

I would suggest taking a look at your application essays again. I applied with very little volunteering experience because I worked 2 jobs - 1 full time and 1 in the evenings. How does your essays align with this school's mission and vision? Also, are you portraying yourself maturely? My full time job allowed me with work on projects with some individuals and physicians on admission committees for some medical schools and one thing they've mentioned that some applicants are naive or immature in their applications.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

As a 3X applicant, you will need standout volunteering hours. So take an extra year to gain more clinical volunteering hours involving active patient contact at a hospice or other medical facilities. Medical school will be there still, so don't rush and end up wasting more time, more $$, and more frustration. BUT don't give up hope!

The 250 hours of pre-college ER volunteering does not count TBH because Adcoms want to see your volunteerism during college or beyond. I wouldn't count the hours when reapplying, but briefly work it into your PS that you've been volunteering since HS.

During the extra year, can you also take some upper-division science classes to increase your GPAs? MDs don't take you grad GPA into consideration, but some DOs will.

Do some of the 100 hours of shadowing involve primary care physicians? If not get additional hours with PCP. Otherwise, you don't need any more shadowing hours.

Get other altruistic non-clinical volunteering like at a soup kitchen or homeless shelter.

Work on your interviewing skills.

I don't suspect that the marijuana thing is an issue. Adcoms were college kids once also, so it's likely not a big deal.

What were the schools you applied to both times, and what were the two schools you got IIs at? Did you apply to DOs? If not, you should consider doing so when applying a 3rd time.

@Faha @Goro for their expertise...

 

[Faha]

Post your new MCAT score here when available in June. You may need to apply to DO schools also.

 

[DrRiker]

As a 3X applicant, you will need standout volunteering hours.

What do you imagine is "standout?" It's my third cycle as well (applied to a few dream schools in my second cycle instead of skipping completely) and went from 0 to 200-225 nonclinical volunteer hours and >1000 clinical employment. Impactful enough?

 

[SpoiledMilk]

What do you imagine is "standout?" It's my third cycle as well (applied to a few dream schools in my second cycle instead of skipping completely) and went from 0 to 200-225 nonclinical volunteer hours and >1000 clinical employment. Impactful enough?

IMO, those are adequate improvements on those activities. However, those hours have to be taken into context of your whole application. Do you have clinical volunteering and if so, how many hours?

 

[DrRiker]

IMO, those are adequate improvements on those activities. However, those hours have to be taken into context of your whole application. Do you have clinical volunteering and if so, how many hours?

No clinical volunteering. I'm a few years out of an undergrad targeted for biomedical research rather than medicine. I thought @LizzyM and the other SDN faculty have suggested employment would be equivalent or better than clinical volunteering?

My stats should be competitive for mid level MD up to the level of Pitt based on MSAR 10th percentile GPA, and my MCAT would be competitive anywhere

 

[SpoiledMilk]

If LizzyM and the other SDN experts believe it's an adequate substitute, then who am I to say otherwise.

However, I just want to add that it won't hurt and can only help on your next app to show your altruistic side as well as app improvement if you can find some clinical volunteering.

 

[DrRiker]

You seem to have a good app, I would save up money and shell out for 40 mid/low tier schools next cycle. Triple applicant itself is a red flag from what I understand so probably have to play the numbers game. I was a reapplicant too so I kind of understand what you are going through, best of luck my friend dont give up.

Is it? I thought schools you never applied to wouldn't even know. Since my first app was really top heavy, wouldn't I just appear as a first time applicant most places?

 

[BuckStrickland]

Is it? I thought schools you never applied to wouldn't even know. Since my first app was really top heavy, wouldn't I just appear as a first time applicant most places?

I always thought they would know from some sort of internal list, because schools know for example if you were accepted somewhere and declined to matriculate

 

[DrRiker]

I always thought they would know from some sort of internal list, because schools know for example if you were accepted somewhere and declined to matriculate

Oh I think that's different, I think the acceptance list is shared by AAMC but the applicant list is not... At least, that's why AMCAS asks if you've applied to this school in previous years on the primary, presumably.... Faculty clarification please??

 

[Trollest]

Sorry but as a reapplicant, i just feel like you should have more hours (clinical and non clinical volunteering). 220 hours for a third time re-app? I am assuming that helping people isnt the reason why you wwant to pursue medicine. Because the altruistic side of your app is lacking.

 

[DrRiker]

Sorry but as a reapplicant, i just feel like you should have more hours (clinical and non clinical volunteering). 220 hours for a third time re-app? I am assuming that helping people isnt the reason why you wwant to pursue medicine. Because the altruistic side of your app is lacking.

We'll see

 

[Trollest]

What do you mean?

We'll see

 

[DrRiker]

What do you mean?

I feel like I have an adequate amount given that I am switching from a research track and only on the past couple years really came to understand what being a physician entails. Hopefully my personal statement demonstrates that well. You're right, my initial motivations were academic instead of altruistic, but my understanding has changed.

 

[Trollest]

Actually the bar is set higher for non trad.

I hope that’s not the case for non-trad applicants though because what if they have a family to feed, I could understand not having hundreds of hours

 

[Trollest]

I see. And to answer the initial question (how much volunteering?), i would say as much as possible. As other have pointed out, the rest of your app is pretty solid. Thus if i were you, i 'd try to bump my weaknesses (x3 re-app which you cant chnage and low vol clinic/non clinical hours). With 14 hours a week (granted you volunteer every weekend), you can bump those hour to 160 by june.

I have seen 90 percentile MCAT get denied because of <100 volunteering hours.

I feel like I have an adequate amount given that I am switching from a research track and only on the past couple years really came to understand what being a physician entails. Hopefully my personal statement demonstrates that well. You're right, my initial motivations were academic instead of altruistic, but my understanding has changed.

 

[DrRiker]

I see. And to answer the initial question (how much volunteering?), i would say as much as possible. As other have pointed out, the rest of your app is pretty solid. Thus if i were you, i 'd try to bump my weaknesses (x3 re-app which you cant chnage and low vol clinic/non clinical hours). With 14 hours a week (granted you volunteer every weekend), you can bump those hour to 160 by june.

I have seen 90 percentile MCAT get denied because of <100 volunteering hours.

Wait, i should have well over 200 non clinical volunteer and >1000 clinical employment by June, you saying I should have even more? I'm one of the >90th percentile MCATs you've seen denied

 

[Trollest]

Wait, i should have well over 200 non clinical volunteer and >1000 clinical employment by June, you saying I should have even more? I'm one of the >90th percentile MCATs you've seen denied

Yeah you should unless you get an acceptance. Until then, you can't really stop.

 

[DrRiker]

Yeah you should unless you get an acceptance. Until then, you can't really stop.

Oh, wasn't planning on stopping lol, but working full time I only anticipate 10, maybe 15, hours per month

 

[CQREZ]

Oh I think that's different, I think the acceptance list is shared by AAMC but the applicant list is not... At least, that's why AMCAS asks if you've applied to this school in previous years on the primary, presumably.... Faculty clarification please??

Schools will know if you are a reapplicant. If you look at a schools website they will sometimes mention that they will not consider your application if this is your 3rd or 4th try. I know this because I had a friend who specifically received a rejection letter stating that he was denied because of this reason.

 

[DrRiker]

Schools will know if you are a reapplicant. If you look at a schools website they will sometimes mention that they will not consider your application if this is your 3rd or 4th try. I know this because I had a friend who specifically received a rejection letter stating that he was denied because of this reason.

I don't think this is true. 3-4 attempts at one school, yes, but not if you apply three times and then select new schools for the fourth time. You would not be a reapplicant for the new schools. @gyngyn?

Do all schools know you are a reapplicant?

 

[CQREZ]

I don't think this is true. 3-4 attempts at one school, yes, but not if you apply three times and then select new schools for the fourth time. You would not be a reapplicant for the new schools. @gyngyn?

Do all schools know you are a reapplicant?

Sorry I should have clarified. Yes if it is 3-4 times to the same school.

 

[gyngyn]

I don't think this is true. 3-4 attempts at one school, yes, but not if you apply three times and then select new schools for the fourth time. You would not be a reapplicant for the new schools. @gyngyn?

Do all schools know you are a reapplicant?

You are only designated a re-applicant at the schools to which you have previously sent a primary application.
Some schools do ask about previous applications, though (even if you are not a re-applicant to that school).