How much $$ will you make?

[xcgirl]

ferraris are gorgeous and everything, but I need something for everday driving...

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[Orthodoc40]

do you really think 15% of future physicians will be making 500k$$$+????????

No, but I'm certain that at least 15-16% of the posters in the pre-allo forums on SDN are delusional.

 

[baylormed]

Yes, stick with it for now, because it could get a whole lot worse than that in the future.

I am assuming this thread is not talking about medicine, because the 500K responses might be from some "I-bankers" that sneaked in their votes.

Yes, our profession is going to the pits, and soon we will all be making only 50K per year (after residency, because residents will only make 10K/year).

Of course, even if we do get paid 100K+/year, that is still not enough to live with. I mean, how am I supposed to afford my Beverly Hills mansion and 4 european cars on a measly 130K yearly salary? Oh the horror!

 

[alwaysaangel]

No, but I'm certain that at least 15-16% of the posters in the pre-allo forums on SDN are delusional.

Its cute that they think they'll make that much...

 

[baylormed]

Its cute that they think they'll make that much...

Yeah, it is kind of cute.

Either way, I would much rather have a 150K/year salary and work from 8-5pm 5 or 6 days a week (possible in private practice and smaller clinics), than be a trauma surgeon on a 300K/year salary who has to work an insane and inpredictable schedule.

I say that because family is important to me, and I want to have the time to be part of mine. Also, resting once in a while never killed anybody.

 

[Law2Doc]

Where is Law2Doc and dutchman...

They need to give their doomsday prediction about our future income...

What doomsday prediction? I have said dozens of times on SDN that folks in medicine can expect to be comfortable, but really not living like a rockstar. Comfortable does not equal doomsday, but it does mean you will be living in reality, not the world of MTV Cribs. You will pay your bills and bank a little to invest if you play it right and don't have too many expenses and dependants. Probably none of you on this thread will be able to afford a Ferrari on just your salary. Sad but true.
So invest well, marry rich, or start buying lottery tickets. Or brace yourselves for reality.

 

[lilnoelle]

What about psychiatric care, especially forensics and child psychiatry. I don't see either of those taking much of a cut since those that make decent money are already recieving a certain amount of cash only business and some of those that aren't making great money are already working for the government (prison psychiatrists) and will probably not see an adjustment.

 

[LIDO]

If you people think that social healthcare will happen overnight (or in an extended period of time) and all of a sudden the entire system will change.......just shut it.

This whole discussion has ridden the board recently (and why b/c Hillary talked to you from her couch?) and it is like a fire amongst pre-med students...........who do not have a clue about the system let alone what it will take to completely destroy/make it worse.

So stop worrying and start studying. All we need are doctors who accidentally killed a patient b/c ten years before that they thought about how much there at that time non-existant salary would deplete. New topic. Night.

 

[BNSN]

No socialized system in the world has ever payed dermatologists good money. Dermatologists are enjoying an artificially created demand right now. In a socialized sytem they can kiss that good bye.

I wouldn't mind seeing socialized medicine just so those overglorified Clinique counter sales representatives can get their comeuppance.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

No socialized system in the world has ever payed dermatologists good money. Dermatologists are enjoying an artificially created demand right now. In a socialized sytem they can kiss that good bye.

You're assuming we would instantly go to full-blown all-socialized medicine and abolish all cash services (prevalent in derm, plastics, etc.) Not going to happen. It's just as likely that we would move to a 2-tiered system where those who can afford care pay for what they can afford and those who can't get stuck with the socialized system. But, I'm not going to debate this here because I can't predict the future anymore than you can.

 

[lilnoelle]

If you people think that social healthcare will happen overnight (or in an extended period of time) and all of a sudden the entire system will change.......just shut it.

This whole discussion has ridden the board recently (and why b/c Hillary talked to you from her couch?) and it is like a fire amongst pre-med students...........who do not have a clue about the system let alone what it will take to completely destroy/make it worse.

So stop worrying and start studying. All we need are doctors who accidentally killed a patient b/c ten years before that they thought about how much there at that time non-existant salary would deplete. New topic. Night.

No, it probably won't happen overnight. But it might happen in the next 8 years before I get out into practice. And to those who get into it before knowing what is going to occur, by the time it occurs, they will be too deep in debt to walk away if they want.

 

[etf]

What doomsday prediction? I have said dozens of times on SDN that folks in medicine can expect to be comfortable, but really not living like a rockstar. Comfortable does not equal doomsday, but it does mean you will be living in reality, not the world of MTV Cribs. You will pay your bills and bank a little to invest if you play it right and don't have too many expenses and dependants. Probably none of you on this thread will be able to afford a Ferrari on just your salary. Sad but true.
So invest well, marry rich, or start buying lottery tickets. Or brace yourselves for reality.

i don't think 400-500k is out of the question for neurosurg, at least from the ones i've talked to. the only thing that might be a teensy bit hard is landing a residency.

 

[lilnoelle]

i don't think 400-500k is out of the question for neurosurg, at least from the ones i've talked to. the only thing that might be a teensy bit hard is landing a residency.

Isn't it just a general surgery residency plus a nuerosurgery fellowship? The residency won't be hard to land. The fellowship will be the problem.

 

[etf]

Isn't it just a general surgery residency plus a nuerosurgery fellowship? The residency won't be hard to land. The fellowship will be the problem.

no; from what i understand neurosurgery is a completely seperate residency, although your first year is spent doing general surgery. i think there is a way to start out in general surgery and then switch after the first year, but i'd imagine it's just as hard as getting straight in.

 

[FutureNeuroStud]

no; from what i understand neurosurgery is a completely seperate residency, although your first year is spent doing general surgery. i think there is a way to start out in general surgery and then switch after the first year, but i'd imagine it's just as hard as getting straight in.

Neurosurgery is usually a 6-7 program where the first year is a general surgery internship. Some people get in after PGY-1 in general surgery, but most programs seem to be designed for the more direct route.

Neurosurgeons' median income is $500K. However, in the first three years (prior to potential board certification) no one should expect >500K. 230-250K is more reasonable. After that, it depends on where you are and how many surgeries you do. Ortho Spine is similar.

 

[BetterNBest]

I hate conversations like these. Honestly, who the hell cares how much you're going to make? This is not a job to be done because of the kind of money one can make doing it. This is a calling that requires its called to understand the needs of others, to mould their lives around those needs, and to SERVE. I would hate to be your patient if the only reason you're doing this is for the $$. What a selfish concept. I hope they socialize medicine quick, so that anyone who's worried about their salary can find another job. And if you're doing this for the money, I hope sincerely that you get rejected at EVERY single medical school you apply to. This is not to any specific individual, but to the cohort of premeds who are driven by their own selfish needs and not the needs of others...

 

[etf]

I hate conversations like these. Honestly, who the hell cares how much you're going to make? This is not a job to be done because of the kind of money one can make doing it. This is a calling that requires its called to understand the needs of others, to mould their lives around those needs, and to SERVE. I would hate to be your patient if the only reason you're doing this is for the $$. What a selfish concept. I hope they socialize medicine quick, so that anyone who's worried about their salary can find another job. And if you're doing this for the money, I hope sincerely that you get rejected at EVERY single medical school you apply to. This is not to any specific individual, but to the cohort of premeds who are driven by their own selfish needs and not the needs of others...

you're new, so a lot of the sdn veterans will let this slide. just think of it in terms of the invisible hand - if my drive to amass wealth leads me to excel as a surgeon, everybody benefits, regardless of my motivation. personally, i think it's the premeds that view medicine as a "calling" and would do it for free as just as likely to be disappointed by the reality of medicine as those who think that they can sign lease papers on a 575M their first year out of residency. as evidenced by a previous thread, most of us wouldn't go through the trouble for $70k a year. honestly, i'd be disappointed with less than $350k. i personally want to make sure my family is well taken care of, especially considering that i probably will be spending a good chunk of my life in the hospital.

money is a primary factor for me choosing medicine instead of other similar careers. and i did get rejected from every medical school i applied to, but hey, there's always next year.

 

[etf]

My take home (not gross, take home) is just over 60k/yr as an intern.

Go milmed!

man, how many illegal prescriptions are you writing?

 

[Law2Doc]

i don't think 400-500k is out of the question for neurosurg, at least from the ones i've talked to. the only thing that might be a teensy bit hard is landing a residency.

I'll believe it when you get it. That kind of money is drying up rapidly, and most surgeons these days are making significantly less than the high end salaries of the prior generation. It is a very very long road to neurosurgery, and by the time you get there, your destination is likely to have changed significantly - it is pretty safe to say that the incomes of today are not going to be the same as those over a decade from now.

 

[Towelie]

I'll believe it when you get it. That kind of money is drying up rapidly, and most surgeons these days are making significantly less than the high end salaries of the prior generation. It is a very very long road to neurosurgery, and by the time you get there, your destination is likely to have changed significantly - it is pretty safe to say that the incomes of today are not going to be the same as those over a decade from now.

Based on what? The 7% decline in the last 10 years? Who is to say that this trend will continue, or get more extreme?

 

[Navicular]

Based on what? The 7% decline in the last 10 years? Who is to say that this trend will continue, or get more extreme?

Who is to say? Obama and Clinton... maybe Edwards.

 

[Towelie]

Who is to say? Obama and Clinton... maybe Edwards.

Do you remember the last time Hillary proposed a major healthcare change? It didn't work out so well for her. Doesn't seem likely that she will try this again.

Plus, this is just blind speculation. We have no clue what medical salaries will look like 10 years from now, but no particular reason to believe that they will take a drastic turn for the worse. People have been proposing universal healthcare in the US for the last 30 years, and it hasn't happened. To assume it will happen in the next 10 years, and that this system will necessarily doom doctors' pay, is foolish.

 

[Navicular]

Who proposes we just cut nurse's pay? No one really likes the nurses anyway...

 

[chad5871]

Plus, this is just blind speculation. We have no clue what medical salaries will look like 10 years from now, but no particular reason to believe that they will take a drastic turn for the worse. People have been proposing universal healthcare in the US for the last 30 years, and it hasn't happened. To assume it will happen in the next 10 years, and that this system will necessarily doom doctors' pay, is foolish.

THANK YOU!

 

[Auron]

Who proposes we just cut nurse's pay? No one really likes the nurses anyway...

I'd agree with you. I just shadowed a doctor and the nurses treat him like s***. I couldn't believe it - but the doc is very calm by nature and doesn't really do anything about it. It'd explain why he goes on vacation often

But yeah, nurses have given me a very bad impression. Don't make me start talking about how they treat med students.

 

[baylormed]

I'd agree with you. I just shadowed a doctor and the nurses treat him like s***. I couldn't believe it - but the doc is very calm by nature and doesn't really do anything about it. It'd explain why he goes on vacation often

But yeah, nurses have given me a very bad impression. Don't make me start talking about how they treat med students.

The beauty of private practice is you can hire nurses you like. And yes, some nurses (not all) are MEAN.

 

[BrianUM]

Hopefully 180-220,000.

Of course, I'd have to be pretty darn good to make that if I plan on going into Psychiatry...

But that's just base salary. I hope to have enough time to invest in mutual funds and possibly even write a book one day as I love to write. Medicine will be my career but by no means my only passion.

 

[Navicular]

I was wondering... why is everyone thinking cuts in healthcare would just cut doctor's wages? Nurses have seen their salaries increase in the last ten years (and also other allied health). Why not cut everyone equally if we get to that point?

 

[sirus_virus]

I was wondering... why is everyone thinking cuts in healthcare would just cut doctor's wages? Nurses have seen their salaries increase in the last ten years (and also other allied health). Why not cut everyone equally if we get to that point?

Because like someone else said, doctors are like sheep. Try cutting nurses pay and they will quit, strike, scratch etc. Doctors on the other hand will try to give some ******* analysis--"I think it is a good idea, we should not be doing it for the money anyway, here is my ass mr politician/businessman screw me at will and dont worry about lubricant".

 

[Navicular]

Because like someone else said, doctors are like sheep. Try cutting nurses pay and they will quit, strike, scratch etc. Doctors on the other hand will try to give some ******* analysis--"I think it is a good idea, we should not be doing it for the money anyway, here is my ass mr politician/businessman screw me at will and dont worry about lubricant".

Point taken. But nurses are nothing without us. And on another note, why has the general public lost so much respect for physicians in the last half-century?

 

[babaghannough]

Is there any question? either the f430 spyder or the new, hot 599 gtb

 

[honker]

Outta the mouths of babes........

 

[Haemulon]

It is very interesting not ony how many pre-meds think they will earn those enormous salaries (500k+???), but also how many are so certain that they have the pulse of exactly what all of the specialties will be doing in the future. Ah well, its fun to think about but I hope people arn't really taking it too seriously.

 

[sirus_virus]

Point taken. But nurses are nothing without us. And on another note, why has the general public lost so much respect for physicians in the last half-century?

Because back in the day, physicians did not have to deal with all the crap(lawsuits, huge debt, govt control etc), so they were a lot more pleasant likeable and respected. These days physicians are not too happy with their jobs so like that guy at Mcdonalds physicians come off rude and obnoxious, hence they end up disliked and direspected.

 

[Stolenspatulas]

It is very interesting not ony how many pre-meds think they will earn those enormous salaries (500k+???), but also how many are so certain that they have the pulse of exactly what all of the specialties will be doing in the future. Ah well, its fun to think about but I hope people arn't really taking it too seriously.

I would say 30% of premeds havent really assessed what there future will actually be like. They dont really understand the ridiculous hours and the stress. One of the things they dont understand is compensation.

It really is, right now, an illusion.... a dream, untouched.

I can look up a spinal surgery and realize I will make more than 1 million dollars/yr. oh that would be great right?!

 

[Haemulon]

I would say 30% of premeds havent really assessed what there future will actually be like. They dont really understand the ridiculous hours and the stress. One of the things they dont understand is compensation.

It really is, right now, an illusion.... a dream, untouched.

I can look up a spinal surgery and realize I will make more than 1 million dollars/yr. oh that would be great right?!

Indeed!

 

[Law2Doc]

I would say 30% of premeds havent really assessed what there future will actually be like. They dont really understand the ridiculous hours and the stress. One of the things they dont understand is compensation.

It really is, right now, an illusion.... a dream, untouched.

I can look up a spinal surgery and realize I will make more than 1 million dollars/yr. oh that would be great right?!

I think the main thing that premeds don't realize is that when they see a salary survey with maximum values it means that is the kind of money you can be pretty confident you will never ever see -- it is an outlier -- older docs who got established when money was good and hurdles to large practices were less significant. Sometimes these outliers are so big, or composed of enough older doctors that they skew the averages, so even average on a given survey may not be a salary you will ever see either. The other flaw premeds see is they look at older docs they know -- uncles, parents, neighbors, and assume that they will be able to attain the same kind of income or lifestyle. The flaw in this is that the "golden age" of medicine before reimbursements is over so many of the older docs did not earn their money in the same kind of arena you will be facing, and many wealthy docs earned more on investments than salary, something that may or may not be duplicatable depending on your investment acumen and the future markets. As I said before, plan to be comfortable, but not living large.

 

[Law2Doc]

Based on what? The 7% decline in the last 10 years? Who is to say that this trend will continue, or get more extreme?

Nobody can predict the future, but, absent major changes in either direction, the best evidence of what will happen in the next 10 years is the last 10 years. My personal bet is not a drastic change, but a continued gradual decline or flattening, paired with a rise in inflation and tax rates. And, with increased numbers of med school grads, increased competition for the lifestyle fields, making more people forced into primary care fields.

 

[Towelie]

Nobody can predict the future, but, absent major changes in either direction, the best evidence of what will happen in the next 10 years is the last 10 years. My personal bet is not a drastic change, but a continued gradual decline or flattening, paired with a rise in inflation and tax rates. And, with increased numbers of med school grads, increased competition for the lifestyle fields, making more people forced into primary care fields.

Due to the shortage, the residency spots for many of these "lifestyle" fields will likely increase as medical school classes increase in size. I believe this is happening at the institution that I currently work at (a Northeast SOM) right now. The shortage doesn't just involve a need for primary care docs.

What happened in the last 10 years was a 7% decline in salary after adjusting for inflation. Specialists actually had a 2% (inflation adjusted) increase in salary. Most of the 7% was due to primary care decreases, and salary decreases in some surgical fields.

So, if this happens again, primary care will continue to suffer. But specialized medicine will be OK. It might not grow as fast as comparable (law, business) fields, but it at least salaries won't be going down.

 

[Law2Doc]

Due to the shortage, the residency spots for many of these "lifestyle" fields will likely increase as medical school classes increase in size. I believe this is happening at the institution that I currently work at (a Northeast SOM) right now. The shortage doesn't just involve a need for primary care docs.

As of this point in time, funded residency slots have actually not been increased to track the fairly significant increase in med school attendants coming down the pike. It remains to be seen how they will be allocated. But the "best use" from the perspective of the government will be to increase primary care oriented slots in parts of the country with the most underserved, not the lifestyle specialties. So these specialties will get more competitive.

If, however, funded residency slots are not increased for a while (a fairly strong possibility), the result will simply be to force a portion of the now larger pool of US med students down into the less competitive slots previously grabbed up by offshore educated folks. Won't help the shortage, but various pundits have been crying for US med schools to satisfy the US residency needs. Either way, expect the competition of lifestyle spots to get more heated in coming years.

 

[Wizard of Oz]

Agree with Towelie and L2D, but my worry is a greater than seven percent drop in physician salaries.

What I rarely see considered, however, is what will happen when the average American ceases to be able to AFFORD his/her company's health insurance plan. My end of insurance premiums doubled in 3 years at one of my jobs, and I still work with people who work their perfunctory 20-hour work weeks JUST to get their family covered by health insurance. The way things are looking, they're going to stop breaking even within the next 10 years.

There is no evidence to support that the American thirst for technology and pills will decline, yet it is this stuff that drives up premiums. While doctors are the quarterbacks calling these healthcare plays, what happens when people stop showing up for the game when they can't afford the price of the ticket?

 

[Karina 07]

haha, the day I see a ferrari parked in my driveway will be one of the happiest days of my life.

Quick, someone park their own car in his driveway! And then drive off again!

Nice pic/avatar thing, by the way.

 

[Auron]

Quick, someone park their own car in his driveway! And then drive off again!

Nice pic/avatar thing, by the way.

thanks

 

[Krisss17]

I'd agree with you. I just shadowed a doctor and the nurses treat him like s***. I couldn't believe it - but the doc is very calm by nature and doesn't really do anything about it. It'd explain why he goes on vacation often

But yeah, nurses have given me a very bad impression. Don't make me start talking about how they treat med students.

I wasn't going to chime in until I read this...I work as a Unit Secretary/Cardiac Monitor Tech and work very closely with nurses. While yes you may run across some nurses that have attitude problems, this can also be said to occur with anyone. Respect is needed on both sides...because the nurses are your eyes and ears when your patients on in the hospital, and considering the cr$%^&p that a lot of nurses have to put up with they deserve a liveable wage. Depending on the hospital, nurses can be caring for upwards of 8 patients a shift...and unfortunately nowadays, those patients that come into the hospital are very sick, have multiple co-morbidities...

New nurses in my area of the country, have starting salaries of $20/hr plus differential if they work nights. You talk about buying new cars...many nurses are just trying to keep the car they have running...

If you come in with an attitude like this when you start your clinicals and treat nurses in such a derogatory way, expect a very, very difficult clerkship, and internship (by residency if not earlier, you will see their value).

I'm sorry that I went on a rant like this, but you need to lose this attitude.

I've not met one nurse that I've worked who has given a doctor an attitude and treats all of the doctors with respect, even those few doctors that don't deserve it.

Krisss17

 

[Auron]

I wasn't going to chime in until I read this...I work as a Unit Secretary/Cardiac Monitor Tech and work very closely with nurses. While yes you may run across some nurses that have attitude problems, this can also be said to occur with anyone. Respect is needed on both sides...because the nurses are your eyes and ears when your patients on in the hospital, and considering the cr$%^&p that a lot of nurses have to put up with they deserve a liveable wage. Depending on the hospital, nurses can be caring for upwards of 8 patients a shift...and unfortunately nowadays, those patients that come into the hospital are very sick, have multiple co-morbidities...

New nurses in my area of the country, have starting salaries of $20/hr plus differential if they work nights. You talk about buying new cars...many nurses are just trying to keep the car they have running...

If you come in with an attitude like this when you start your clinicals and treat nurses in such a derogatory way, expect a very, very difficult clerkship, and internship (by residency if not earlier, you will see their value).

I'm sorry that I went on a rant like this, but you need to lose this attitude.

I've not met one nurse that I've worked who has given a doctor an attitude and treats all of the doctors with respect, even those few doctors that don't deserve it.

Krisss17

Ok, I didn't really mean their salaries should be cut, I was just angry at that moment as It made think about that certain shadowing experience, the man is a great doctor (very highly respected here) because of his patient care - and It's quite irritating watching this happen to him, and it makes me think of the BS I'll likely have to put up with later in my career, such is life. I'm sure their are many nice nurses, I personally have yet to meet one.

 

[Krisss17]

Ok, I didn't really mean their salaries should be cut, I was just angry at that moment as It made think about that certain shadowing experience, the man is a great doctor (very highly respected here) because of his patient care - and It's quite irritating watching this happen to him, and it makes me think of the BS I'll likely have to put up with later in my career, such is life. I'm sure their are many nice nurses, I personally have yet to meet one.
But I've noticed if you make them mad they can make your life a living hell. This is the last thing you want during your clerkships...

The thing is that you were shadowing this doctor...had you known this doctor long? Had you shadowed him on multiple occasions? The thing is, somehow or the other, he must have rubbed these nurses the wrong way, because believe me, nurses are highly appreciative of the doctors that treat nurses as part of the health team than just their handmaidens to do their bidden. It's a shame that these particular nurses let their disrespect show, but please believe it, that was more of an exception than the rule.

Question for you, Auron. How old are you?

Krisss17

 

[notdeadyet]

Point taken. But nurses are nothing without us. And on another note, why has the general public lost so much respect for physicians in the last half-century?

Because back in the day, many people honestly went in to medicine as a service profession. They knew that travelling on housecalls was a part of the job. They understood that being paged at any time was a part of the job. They saw their role as a very important function of society.

Things are different now, and for years the field has been attracting a different kind of applicant. Folks have been entering medicine for the money and whatnot (threads like this are a pretty good symptom). They are looking for "lifestyle" instead of "service."

I'm not casting stones. Folks are entitled to pursue the profession for whatever reasons they like. But this generation of doctor's can't be expected to be held in the same esteem as previous generations. A whole different class of people. Whether the times are a reaction to the doctor or the doctor is a reaction to the times is a whole different kettle of fish.

Money will go down, which I understand and accept. What saddens me is that the public is changing its opinion about doctors as we speak and the respect will probably never come back. It happened to Law about 25 years ago for similar reasons. Unless there's a radical change in philosophy amongst young physicians (which is possible albeit unlikely), I'd expect doctors to be regarded similarly to lawyers in another 10-15 years: a necessary but expensive evil.

 

[montessori2md]

There will always be people who want to spend their life savings (or just their hubby's bonus check) on their skin or random body parts. Derm and plastics got nothin' to worry about. I think primary care will be okay, mostly because of "midlevels" they'll be signing charts for (for a fee, of course). Imagine, you're a family med md, with two PAs or NPs, between the three of you you see 65 pts/day at $75 per visit, my son's ped and my md get more like $100, but $75 is closer to medicare, (PA salary is currently 50-80k in primary care). So the three of you are pulling in more than $100k/month. Even with operating costs, etc, I don't think pulling in $100k/year for yourself would be all that hard -that's less than 10% of gross income.

I'd also like to believe that if any sort of socialized medicine thing occurs, that malpractice costs will drop. But that's me being optimistic.

 

[Auron]

The thing is that you were shadowing this doctor...had you known this doctor long? Had you shadowed him on multiple occasions? The thing is, somehow or the other, he must have rubbed these nurses the wrong way, because believe me, nurses are highly appreciative of the doctors that treat nurses as part of the health team than just their handmaidens to do their bidden. It's a shame that these particular nurses let their disrespect show, but please believe it, that was more of an exception than the rule.

Question for you, Auron. How old are you?

Krisss17

19

 

[BeatrixKiddo]

I will make one bajillion dollars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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money money money money money money everywhere

money money money money MONNNNNNN-NAY