How much $$ will you make?

[dutchman]

Because back in the day, many people honestly went in to medicine as a service profession. They knew that travelling on housecalls was a part of the job. They understood that being paged at any time was a part of the job. They saw their role as a very important function of society.

Things are different now, and for years the field has been attracting a different kind of applicant. Folks have been entering medicine for the money and whatnot (threads like this are a pretty good symptom). They are looking for "lifestyle" instead of "service."

I'm not casting stones. Folks are entitled to pursue the profession for whatever reasons they like. But this generation of doctor's can't be expected to be held in the same esteem as previous generations. A whole different class of people. Whether the times are a reaction to the doctor or the doctor is a reaction to the times is a whole different kettle of fish.

Money will go down, which I understand and accept. What saddens me is that the public is changing its opinion about doctors as we speak and the respect will probably never come back. It happened to Law about 25 years ago for similar reasons. Unless there's a radical change in philosophy amongst young physicians (which is possible albeit unlikely), I'd expect doctors to be regarded similarly to lawyers in another 10-15 years: a necessary but expensive evil.

That argument is flawed because there was more money in medicine back in the day. These days not as much. Doctors are bitter because they are not happy these days. Plain and simple.

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[NonTradMed]

What doomsday prediction? I have said dozens of times on SDN that folks in medicine can expect to be comfortable, but really not living like a rockstar. Comfortable does not equal doomsday, but it does mean you will be living in reality, not the world of MTV Cribs. You will pay your bills and bank a little to invest if you play it right and don't have too many expenses and dependants. Probably none of you on this thread will be able to afford a Ferrari on just your salary. Sad but true.
So invest well, marry rich, or start buying lottery tickets. Or brace yourselves for reality.

I realize that my ideas of what is 'comfortable' and you and others' ideas of what is 'comfortable' differs. My parents' combined income do not reach $140k. I think we are comfortable. The off-stated income for the average doctor is $200k. I live in a major city in the midwest and $200k for a family (the few we know of that has this amount of money) are very well off. They live in half a million dollar homes, send their kids to nice private schools, and have nice vacations, all on one income. I consider that beyond 'comfortable' since many of these people are not even hitting their peak earning potential yet (only in early 40's). And many of these people make this much money on TWO incomes, it is rare to find someone living on ONE income like that (it could be cultural too, almost all the Chinese families we know have two fulltime earners, and so I automatically assume as a doctor, my income will be combined with my spouse's).

I would not consider the families who make that around here to be just 'comfortable'. To me, comfortable is where you can go to mid-level restaurants once a week, send your kids to good public schools and take a nice vacation once a year (like to Orlando or something). Nothing like 'going to Europe' type of money, or buying a 4000 sq ft house (wow). Then again, I grew up kind of poor, so my ideas of what makes me 'comfortable' may differ from others.

 

[NonTradMed]

That argument is flawed because there was more money in medicine back in the day. These days not as much. Doctors are bitter because they are not happy these days. Plain and simple.

I get the impression doctors' biggest complaint isn't money so much as amount of time they have to work to maintain the same amount of income they are used to. This is only what I have learned from the doctors I spoke with, but none of them complained about money, they complained about having to see more patients, in shorter amount of time, and lack of autonomy and the long freakin' hours to do the paperwork. The advice given to me about money is that 'money isn't an issue, however, you'll earn every penny' (their stress). However, I do see alot of bitterness....on the pre-allo forums....these days.

Medicine isn't for everyone, and I don't think people should be pollyanna about their future in medicine, however, if some people are already looking at the medical field with dread, they should reconsider doing it and look at greener pastures elsewhere. I figure everyone will eventually become more cynical as time wears on and if you start out that way, you'll end up very unhappy.

 

[Law2Doc]

I realize that my ideas of what is 'comfortable' and you and others' ideas of what is 'comfortable' differs. My parents' combined income is $140k. I think we are comfortable. The off-stated income for the average doctor is $200k. I live in a major city in the midwest and $200k for a family (the few we know of that has this amount of money) are very well off. They live in half a million dollar homes, send their kids to nice private schools, and have nice vacations, all on one income. I consider that beyond 'comfortable' since many of these people are not even hitting their peak earning potential yet (only in early 40's). And many of these people make this much money on TWO incomes, it is rare to find someone living on ONE income like that (it could be cultural too, almost all the Chinese families we know have two fulltime earners, and so I automatically assume as a doctor, my income will be combined with my spouse's).

I would not consider the families who make that around here to be just 'comfortable'. To me, comfortable is where you can go to mid-level restaurants once a week, send your kids to good public schools and take a nice vacation once a year (like to Orlando or something). Nothing like 'going to Europe' type of money, or buying a 4000 sq ft house (wow). Then again, I grew up kind of poor, so my ideas of what makes me 'comfortable' may differ from others.

A lot of doctors will be earning significantly less than that $200k, as that averages in older docs and not all med school grads get to be high paying specialists. And not all families are dual income. In much of the country, a lower six digit income is still enough to have a decent house in the suburbs (with a sizeable mortgage), pay your bills, send your kids to nice schools, go on nice, but not extravagant vacations, and maybe if you are frugal even have a small bit left over to save/ invest. Which is what I would term comfortable. That is not enough to own a Ferrari, Bentley, mansion, jet airplane or some of the other things described in these pre-allo threads, however. So I stand by the comfortable, but not living large statement.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Law2Doc, you do realize I was joking about that jet right?

I'm fine with just a good quality classic sports car, such as this:

or if I get into a really lucrative practice:

 

[Navicular]

No one can predict the future. It will probably be 10+ years (for those of us who are entering medical school next year) before we start practicing. By that point the market could completely change. It is impossible to predict at this point. I truly hope you guys are going into medicine because it's something you love doing and not the financial incentive. There are other rewards in life besides piles of $$$.

EDIT: But if medicine meant that I couldn't support myself or family I would jump ship too.

 

[seadizzle]

For those who say they don't care about money - wait until your friends who went to law school or got an MBA (3 or 2 years of post grad) are making lots more than you (with 4+4 or more post grad), and they are saving for a house/invite you on a very nice vacation/are sending their kids to private school. Wait until the profession of medicine has become a job for you too, instead of this idealistic "service."

 

[etf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JosQuliOcl8

 

[Guile]

Good idea for a thread. The responses are hilarious. You people posting pictures of Ferraris, Maybachs, etc. are in for a nasty surprise. But you're so entertaining, so please continue.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

MilkofAmnesia
aka Propofol

I guess you tired of explaining the joke eh?

 

[dutchman]

Good idea for a thread. The responses are hilarious. You people posting pictures of Ferraris, Maybachs, etc. are in for a nasty surprise. But you're so entertaining, so please continue.

How is the surprise going to be nasty, when the news of declining income is already a common and many times acceptable knowledge. I am sure they are being sarcastic with the pictures.

 

[etf]

Not how much $ you WANT to make. How much $ do you THINK you will make once your career gets started.

i think i mentioned this before, but my answer to this question (>$500k) is based on what i think i will make when my career gets started, not necessarily how much i think i will make from my career. god bless the nasdaq.

 

[ralegen]

I don't see how the possibility of a Ferrari is a suprise for a doctor. I can easily see someone making a little over $100K afford one. Just save up for a few years! LOL

 

[Auron]

-

 

[OB1]

Becoming a doctor is as such that in the beginning you may want a Ferrari, but by the time you finish medical school you'll be driving a Volvo*. On the other hand, if you still have your heart set on a Ferrari by the time you're in MS2 then you will come to the unpalatable realization that you're in the wrong field. If you doubt this, conduct your own survey on the type of cars doctors drive and you will find that only a very small minority go for the "exotics." Conversely, survey the type of people who drive Ferrari's then compare if your interests and true intentions in life more closely matches theirs.

*Volvo, in this sense, is used figuratively to stand for anything more functional/conservative, which is not limited to BMW's, Benz's, Lexus', etc.

 

[PugMD]

I don't see how the possibility of a Ferrari is a suprise for a doctor. I can easily see someone making a little over $100K afford one. Just save up for a few years! LOL

Hey man, you want it bad enough and you could probably pick up an old 328 Magnum PI Ferrari GTS on a teacher's salary now-a-days

 

[OB1]

Actually I might be able to buy one or 2, within a year. I predict a certain stock is going to EXPLODE sometime this year, probably around summer.
(I predicted the same about google, and I made a small fortune, its sitting in the bank for a rainy day)
Anyways, I have quite a few shares in this particular stock. If it reaches the success I predict (I'm almost positive it will, its groundbreaking technology) I'll be a millionaire before I'm 20. Its one of those once in a life time opportunities that you just happen to stumble on, which could change your life. Better yet, It'll pay for my entire medical education. I'll keep you guys posted when it hits, but you'll probably see it all over tv anyways, the whole world will know it - and by then it'll be too late to get in

What have you got to lose by naming this particular stock now? This gives others a chance to get in on it early, which could potentially cause the stock to take off sooner and hence, making you a millionaire a few months earlier. Anybody can call a stock after it breaks through; even my half-dead goldfish is capable of doing that! Calling it before it hits, however, puts you in an entirely different league.

 

[Towelie]

What have you got to lose by naming this particular stock now? This gives others a chance to get in on it early, which could potentially cause the stock to take off sooner and hence, making you a millionaire a few months earlier. Anybody can call a stock after it breaks through; even my half-dead goldfish is capable of doing that! Calling it before it hits, however, puts you in an entirely different league.

Because the post is total BS.

 

[Auron]

-

 

[Auron]

It should be obvious to everyone that Misterio created a new account.

no, please just forget it, I shouldn't have mentioned it at all.....

 

[dutchman]

I don't see how the possibility of a Ferrari is a suprise for a doctor. I can easily see someone making a little over $100K afford one. Just save up for a few years! LOL

IMO, a Ferrari is not something you save up to buy. you can either afford it or not. Doctors cannot afford a Ferrari unless they are making their money outside medicine.

 

[NonTradMed]

A lot of doctors will be earning significantly less than that $200k, as that averages in older docs and not all med school grads get to be high paying specialists. And not all families are dual income. In much of the country, a lower six digit income is still enough to have a decent house in the suburbs (with a sizeable mortgage), pay your bills, send your kids to nice schools, go on nice, but not extravagant vacations, and maybe if you are frugal even have a small bit left over to save/ invest. Which is what I would term comfortable. That is not enough to own a Ferrari, Bentley, mansion, jet airplane or some of the other things described in these pre-allo threads, however. So I stand by the comfortable, but not living large statement.

Well, you can't say that unless you know the income distribution and the standard deviation around the $200k. Just saying that 'not all doctors are going to be specialists and this includes older doctors' doesn't mean much otherwise.

If the case is that a few doctors are pulling the income level to $200k, then one should stress the median income when talking about how 'nonextravagant' physician income is, rather than saying $200k. By saying that the average income of a physician is about $200k, to me, that implies that the majority will fall into that range, I wouldn't assume that many are statistical outliers (as you are implying in your post).

When I was a computer science student back in the heydays of the dotcom boom, everyone was telling me that most students came out offers of ~$50k average and most programmers makes ~$70k (salary). That average was pretty consistent in that most students ended up in that range. There were those that were slightly below and those that were way above. Adjusted for living expenses, it came out a wash. As a result, when I hear an income average touted about, I assume that the middle majority is within a small range of that number. That's why I was curious as to why people think that $200k is only 'comfortable', b/c assuming that $50% of doctors make within that range (let's say standard deviation ~$20k), that still means a majority of people live more than 'comfortable' in my book.

My parents' combined income do not approach $140k, and I find that we are living quite comfortably and my parents do not have the accumulated wealth that others their age has (since they came to this country at the age of 36). Anyone above my parents' income, I consider more than comfy. That's why I would disagree that a $200k income is only 'comfortable'. Where I live, $180k gets you in the top 5% household income bracket. And according to stats I've read, the top 5% household income is a bit less than $200k nationwide. Since a slight majority households do have two earners, to me, having a job that pays, on average, $200k is pretty high.

And honestly, I have not see that many students bragging about buying jets or whatnot. I think most students have a pretty grounded view of how much a doctor makes, judging by the poll (although it is skewed a bit higher than the statistical average). Sure, some are optimistic with their $500k, but that's a small minority. When I was in college, there was a small segment of the computer science population that thought they could make $100k coming out, but most people knew that was hogwash. I think we're seeing the same here. I knew back when I was a CS student that I was coming out making ~$50k and that was in the range I expected (and this was right AFTER the dotcom bust). From my research, the $200k is about right and I expect to make somewhere below that range ('cause I'm a below average med student ), and I'm assuming that my SO will probably work as well, so that's still pretty nice salary in my book. I know it's a cardinal sin to say this on the forum, but I think a doctor's salary would make me very happy. It's the workloads that's gonna kill me.

 

[Guile]

I guess you tired of explaining the joke eh?

Yeah, no one in pre-allo know what it is, so I figured I lend a hand. (Many times people would refer to me in other posts as "MilkofMagnesia.")

 

[adoggie]

I think how much income a person makes depends largely on where they are living.

 

[EctopicFetus]

IMO, a Ferrari is not something you save up to buy. you can either afford it or not. Doctors cannot afford a Ferrari unless they are making their money outside medicine.

I assume you know neurosurg and spine surg makes insane money. Enough to just get that ferrari.. Overall though u r right.. Docs dont make that much money.

Of course lots of non clinical opportunities for docs to make some bread.

 

[EctopicFetus]

The Adjusted Gross Income is what the IRS reports for % wealth..

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/250.html

This is the most recent data (2004)

Top 1% AGI is $328,049

Top 5% AGI is $137,056

 

[EctopicFetus]

A real good site to look at doc salaries by field. It is one of the better ones I have seen. I know peeps in a lot of fields and they concur.

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

As you can see not a lot of >500K

 

[Law2Doc]

A real good site to look at doc salaries by field. It is one of the better ones I have seen. I know peeps in a lot of fields and they concur.

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

As you can see not a lot of >500K

People float these various surveys, but the problem is always how they are derived, and whether the data represents a random sampling of physicians in the area/specialty described. I will again put up the JAMA survey of a few years back, which in my opinion is a more credible source than a recruiting organization with an interest in keeping salaries high.
http://www.medfriends.org/specialty_hours_worked.htm

For an article on physician salary drop with salary figures at the bottom see also - http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/site/free/prsc0724.htm
(nontrad med -- note all the areas with averages below $200k per my prior point).

 

[Law2Doc]

The Adjusted Gross Income is what the IRS reports for % wealth..

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/250.html

This is the most recent data (2004)

Top 1% AGI is $328,049

Top 5% AGI is $137,056

Having come from a prior well paid profession, being in the top X% of income sounds pretty impressive until you get there and find that after loans, taxes and bills you are still living pretty modestly.

 

[etf]

I assume you know neurosurg and spine surg makes insane money. Enough to just get that ferrari.. Overall though u r right.. Docs dont make that much money.

Of course lots of non clinical opportunities for docs to make some bread.

actually it's usually only spinal neurosurgeons and spinal surgeons that make that kind of money, and it usually means private practice in a less desireable location (i.e. not in california)

 

[Guile]

Having come from a prior well paid profession, being in the top X% of income sounds pretty impressive until you get there and find that after loans, taxes and bills you are still living pretty modestly.

Exactly. I think people REALLY don't realize what $200K looks like when you have a $350K debt (easily achieved when your massive debt accrues interest for 4-5 years because you can't go into repayment during residency and you wouldn't take people's advice about going to your state school), a new house, a new car (maybe another new one for the wife), kids, private school tuition, a new dog, homeowner's insurance, car insurance, and Uncle's Sam's 45% cut.

 

[Towelie]

Exactly. I think people REALLY don't realize what $200K looks like when you have a $350K debt (easily achieved when your massive debt accrues interest for 4-5 years because you can't go into repayment during residency and you wouldn't take people's advice about going to your state school), a new house, a new car (maybe another new one for the wife), kids, private school tuition, a new dog, homeowner's insurance, car insurance, and Uncle's Sam's 45% cut.

I like how you threw "a new dog" in there.

 

[dutchman]

People float these various surveys, but the problem is always how they are derived, and whether the data represents a random sampling of physicians in the area/specialty described. I will again put up the JAMA survey of a few years back, which in my opinion is a more credible source than a recruiting organization with an interest in keeping salaries high.
http://www.medfriends.org/specialty_hours_worked.htm

For an article on physician salary drop with salary figures at the bottom see also - http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/site/free/prsc0724.htm
(nontrad med -- note all the areas with averages below $200k per my prior point).

That is why I was wondering how you could afford a Ferrari on 121K salary and 200k debt. Even specialists averaging 175K can't afford it either. IMO, we at the breakpoint where physician salaries are just decent enough to take care of loans, put kids through college, and live comfortably(not luxirious). Anything more might be wishfull thinking.

 

[physiclas87]

Exactly. I think people REALLY don't realize what $200K looks like when you have a $350K debt (easily achieved when your massive debt accrues interest for 4-5 years because you can't go into repayment during residency and you wouldn't take people's advice about going to your state school), a new house, a new car (maybe another new one for the wife), kids, private school tuition, a new dog, homeowner's insurance, car insurance, and Uncle's Sam's 45% cut.

No. I know plenty of people in California, making <60k/year, who are buying houses for $350k, have a car, family, etc. If they can do it on that salary, a doctor making 200k will NOT have to live modestly.

 

[Towelie]

That is why I was wondering how you could afford a Ferrari on 121K salary and 200k debt. Even specialists averaging 175K can't afford it either. IMO, we at the breakpoint where physician salaries are just decent enough to take care of loans, put kids through college, and live comfortably(not luxirious). Anything more might be wishfull thinking.

FYI, the average physician has much less than $200K in debt.

 

[Auron]

It wouldn't be easy to buy a ferrari making 200k. Though it is possible with some investing/saving and planning. I've been investing for years, and I've made quite a bit - this is how you supplement your salary and get those nice toys, not by solely relying upon your income.

 

[dutchman]

It wouldn't be easy to buy a ferrari making 200k. Though it is possible with some investing/saving and planning. I've been investing for years, and I've made quite a bit - this is how you supplement your salary and get those nice toys, not by solely relying upon your income.

That will be cool if you even get to make 200k, but a bulk of doctors(primary care) will be sitting on the borderline of 120K.

 

[lilnoelle]

No. I know plenty of people in California, making <60k/year, who are buying houses for $350k, have a car, family, etc. If they can do it on that salary, a doctor making 200k will NOT have to live modestly.

I hope your joking.

If people are living like that on less than $60K, they are probably in a lot of debt.

I would prefer to live modestly and not have to live paycheck to paycheck (not stressing about money) than to live a grandiose lifestyle and always be avoiding the collection agencies.

 

[Auron]

That will be cool if you even get to make 200k, but a bulk of doctors(primary care) will be sitting on the borderline of 120K.

Well I'm not sure what exactly I want to do, I'm strongly considering invasive cardiology, or perhaps ENT. I'm preety sure I'll make at least 200k in either either of these fields, barring unforseen consequences.

 

[Law2Doc]

Well I'm not sure what exactly I want to do, I'm strongly considering invasive cardiology, or perhaps ENT. I'm preety sure I'll make at least 200k in either either of these fields, barring unforseen consequences.

You are assuming you will get into either of these fields. Not everyone does (at least not ENT). Many people sort of default into primary care or some of the less competitive areas. It's good to have goals, but best to keep an open mind.

 

[beenthere2]

I think how much income a person makes depends largely on where they are living.

And...how much of an income it takes to live comfortably varies widely with location. I suspect that most of you are not experienced enough to really know how much it takes to support a family comfortably- and not extravagantly. It is more than you think.

 

[OB1]

It wouldn't be easy to buy a ferrari making 200k. Though it is possible with some investing/saving and planning. I've been investing for years, and I've made quite a bit - this is how you supplement your salary and get those nice toys, not by solely relying upon your income.

Let's see, you're 19 now so does that mean you've been investing since you were 12? Why haven't we heard about you in the papers if you've made "quite a bit" as you claim you have?

No. I know plenty of people in California, making <60k/year, who are buying houses for $350k, have a car, family, etc. If they can do it on that salary, a doctor making 200k will NOT have to live modestly.

Ever heard of the term "rat race"? It's quite possible for someone to take out an interest-only mortgage and squeek by the skin of their teeth every month just to make ends meet. In fact, this was quite the trend when interest rates were at or below 6%. I don't know if any of you keep abreast with other things going on in the world, such as our economy for example, but Mr. Greenspan behooved those people with such mortgages to think twice about refinancing in order to avoid foreclosures as interest rates rise...

This is probably a more appropriate poll question to ask: how financially-savvy are you?

a) very
b) adequate enough to not end up on the streets
c) I tend to spend everthing without thinking about tomorrow

 

[Auron]

You are assuming you will get into either of these fields. Not everyone does (at least not ENT). Many people sort of default into primary care or some of the less competitive areas. It's good to have goals, but best to keep an open mind.

I'm not assuming, I know I can get in. I'm relentless in getting what I want, I work very hard and do absolutely whatever it takes to achieve my goal. It is this tenacity that has made me succesful all these years, and I don't foresee any problems in the future as long as I keep up what I'm doing.

 

[Law2Doc]

And...how much of an income it takes to live comfortably varies widely with location. I suspect that most of you are not experienced enough to really know how much it takes to support a family comfortably- and not extravagantly. It is more than you think.

Agree. And also people on here tend not to have a good sense of what you have left of your income after you pay taxes, bills, debt, and various other necessities. What seems like a lot of money while in undergrad often ends up being far more modest in reality. Your expenses tend to grow to meet your income -- you will eat out more, live in a nicer apartment/house or nicer neighborhood/building, keep your fridge stocked with more stuff, get more cable channels on your TV, maybe open an IRA or sock away money for retirement in a 401k (depending on the practice structure). If you are married or have kids, that's a whole nother host of expenses. And suddenly, after you pay all your bills each paycheck, you will realize that what's left isn't going to buy you a Kia, let alone a Ferrari.
You will be paying your bills and living decently, which is better than a lot of Americans. I wouldn't bet on more than that without another source of revenue besides your doctor's salary.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm not assuming, I know I can get in. I'm relentless in getting what I want, I work very hard and do absolutely whatever it takes to achieve my goal. It is this tenacity that has made me succesful all these years, and I don't foresee any problems in the future as long as I keep up what I'm doing.

But in med school you are suddenly amidst 150 people as relentless as you, and many will be naturally more gifted. Tends to be shocking for folks but half of the class ends up below average. Do your best and plan to hit the ground running. Time will tell how your best matches up.

 

[lilnoelle]

I'm not assuming, I know I can get in. I'm relentless in getting what I want, I work very hard and do absolutely whatever it takes to achieve my goal. It is this tenacity that has made me succesful all these years, and I don't foresee any problems in the future as long as I keep up what I'm doing.

Thats fantastic. But you have to realize that you will end up in a class filled with ~150 people that are just as relentless as you are. 50% of these people will be in the bottom of their class, and only around 10% of the class will be able to match into uber competitive specialties.

 

[lilnoelle]

But in med school you are suddenly amidst 150 people as relentless as you, and many will be naturally more gifted. Tends to be shocking for folks but half of the class ends up below average. Do your best and plan to hit the ground running. Time will tell how your best matches up.

ha, jinx.

 

[Law2Doc]

ha, jinx.

Wow -- we are really on the same page on this one.

 

[Auron]

Let's see, you're 19 now so does that mean you've been investing since you were 12? Why haven't we heard about you in the papers if you've made "quite a bit" as you claim you have?



Ever heard of the term "rat race"? It's quite possible for someone to take out an interest-only mortgage and squeek by the skin of their teeth every month just to make ends meet. In fact, this was quite the trend when interest rates were at or below 6%. I don't know if any of you keep abreast with other things going on in the world, such as our economy for example, but Mr. Greenspan behooved those people with such mortgages to think twice about refinancing in order to avoid foreclosures as interest rates rise...

This is probably a more appropriate poll question to ask: how financially-savvy are you?

a) very
b) adequate enough to not end up on the streets
c) I tend to spend everthing without thinking about tomorrow

I haven't won the lottery here....

 

[orthointern]

Im an ortho intern. My name must have been placed on some list somewhere because I keep getting job offers in the mail which start at like $450,000 and go up to like $600,000 + signing bonuses, relocation funds etc. Cant wait to graduate in 4 years 4 months and and about 2 weeks.....but whose counting????