How often do people with 10+ IIs not get in anywhere?

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I am in a LizzyM range where I feel like I get somewhat resource protected at low-tier schools with 510-513 medians and I feel that I am simply not great enough (metrics-wise, at least) for T20s as I am not URM/military/LGBTQIA/etc.

I have two T10 IIs, a few T30 IIs, and then a mix of low tiers and T50s. My question: is it possible to go 0-13 for interviews?

I don't think my interviews are a big problem as I have been told I had an "amazing" interview before and generally feel okay, but I can't shake the feeling that I have some reservations at every single interview I've been on. Am I just being neurotic while waiting again? I do have one waitlist already...

I also have strong LoRs/PS/narrative that has been brought up during interviews and I feel like at least one of those things is brought up at every interview. On the other hand, I bombed VITA which at least three of my schools (including one of my T10 top-choices) utilize. Do I need a slap straight across the face and be told to snap out of it? I had a lot of caffeine this morning after like 3-4 days so maybe I'm just on the edge today? I just needed to get this off my chest because none of my friends/flatmates understand or probably even know that I'm applying to medical school.https://forums.studentdoctor.net/search/
 
CommyØ said:
I am in a LizzyM range where I feel like I get somewhat resource protected at low-tier schools with 510-513 medians and I feel that I am simply not great enough (metrics-wise, at least) for T20s as I am not URM/military/LGBTQIA/etc.

I have two T10 IIs, a few T30 IIs, and then a mix of low tiers and T50s. My question: is it possible to go 0-13 for interviews?

I don't think my interviews are a big problem as I have been told I had an "amazing" interview before and generally feel okay, but I can't shake the feeling that I have some reservations at every single interview I've been on. Am I just being neurotic while waiting again? I do have one waitlist already...

I also have strong LoRs/PS/narrative that has been brought up during interviews and I feel like at least one of those things is brought up at every interview. On the other hand, I bombed VITA which at least three of my schools (including one of my T10 top-choices) utilize. Do I need a slap straight across the face and be told to snap out of it? I had a lot of caffeine this morning after like 3-4 days so maybe I'm just on the edge today? I just needed to get this off my chest because none of my friends/flatmates understand or probably even know that I'm applying to medical school.Search
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It looks like average post-II acceptance rate is around 50%, based on data from USNWR compiled by @TheDataKing. However, the range is pretty wide, from about 20-75%. If you assume you have a normal assortment of schools, (.5)^10 is about 0.001, which is a 0.1% chance of not getting accepted somewhere. However, this is an imperfect metric as you may have poor interview skills that means you can't treat each probability indendently and you may actually have a higher chance of not getting in anywhere. This is also true if you are exlusively interviewing at places like Mayo and Columbia that have <25% acceptance rates, but (.75)^10 is still only a 6% chance of not getting in anywhere, which may sound big but is still pretty small. Long story short, 10 interviews isn't a guaranteed acceptance, but gives you a very very good chance of getting one.

Disclaimer: I haven't applied but I like working through questions like this.
 
It is possible but not likely not to get admitted as noted by screamapillar. If someone were to go 0/13 on interviews, I'd say it might be the interview. Do you answer questions with single word responses? Do you tend to ramble on and on? Do you speak very quickly or with a great deal of jargon (particularly when describing your research or other work) such that you could not be easily understood by someone outside of that field? Do you have a poker face that reveals little about your emotional state even when you talk about something that you are passionate about? Are you passionate about anything you might be asked about during an interview?
 
I agree with the above for the most part. Traditional wisdom usually* states that 3 interviews or more is the golden number you need to get accepted. But also keep in mind that you are rejected until you get an acceptance letter.

If I were you, i'd relax. You've done the best you can. Give yourself and your mindset a break.
 
CommyØ said:
I am in a LizzyM range where I feel like I get somewhat resource protected at low-tier schools with 510-513 medians and I feel that I am simply not great enough (metrics-wise, at least) for T20s as I am not URM/military/LGBTQIA/etc.

I have two T10 IIs, a few T30 IIs, and then a mix of low tiers and T50s. My question: is it possible to go 0-13 for interviews?

I don't think my interviews are a big problem as I have been told I had an "amazing" interview before and generally feel okay, but I can't shake the feeling that I have some reservations at every single interview I've been on. Am I just being neurotic while waiting again? I do have one waitlist already...

I also have strong LoRs/PS/narrative that has been brought up during interviews and I feel like at least one of those things is brought up at every interview. On the other hand, I bombed VITA which at least three of my schools (including one of my T10 top-choices) utilize. Do I need a slap straight across the face and be told to snap out of it? I had a lot of caffeine this morning after like 3-4 days so maybe I'm just on the edge today? I just needed to get this off my chest because none of my friends/flatmates understand or probably even know that I'm applying to medical school.Search
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Yes, it's possible. Something like, what, 5-10% of high stats people fail to get in. Just to be a human being.
 
your background sounds impressive, be proud of yourself my guy! The fact that you had an oppourtunity to interview at a top 10 schools shows how much of an excellent candidate you are. You should be relaxing or doing whatever it takes to take your mind off. Like my old man says, there is no point in worrying about things you cannot control.
 
I'd say it's next to impossible to get 13 interviews and not get at least one acceptance. That would have to be some sort of record, if you manage to actually do it 😉
 
Putkernerinthehall said:
I'd say it's next to impossible to get 13 interviews and not get at least one acceptance. That would have to be some sort of record, if you manage to actually do it 😉
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I remember one SDNer who had some 19+ IIs and only got an accept on the last interview, from his state school.

I trust that the OP will not be one of those SDNers who take rejections personally.
 
Goro said:
I remember one SDNer who had some 19+ IIs and only got an accept on the last interview, from his state school.

I trust that the OP will not be one of those SDNers who take rejections personally.
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I had a high state applicant with something like 15 interviews across two cycles. didnt get in until his third attempt
 
Putkernerinthehall said:
I'd say it's next to impossible to get 13 interviews and not get at least one acceptance. That would have to be some sort of record, if you manage to actually do it 😉
Click to expand...
You'd be wrong. This has absolutely nothing to do with OP, who, based on his DO success, will be absolutely fine, but your supposition is premised on interviews being like random coin flips where, yeah, 13 straight tails is next to impossible.

Unfortunately (or, depending on the candidate, fortunately), interview results are far from random. It's very difficult for any candidate to run the table due to the level of competition, but it's far from impossible for an arrogant a-hole, or someone who is painfully shy, or someone who just has crappy interpersonal skills, to strike out, regardless of how many swings they get. It happens every year, and, when you think about it, it is perfectly understandable.
 
Thank you for your input everyone, I appreciate it.

Ultimately, I just have to understand that I cannot retroactively control what happened in the past and try to keep moving forward. The heat is really starting to pick up now (as if it hadn't already) and I need to follow my own advice posted elsewhere on this board. No school/man can judge or define me, for that is reserved only for God. All I can do is tell my story, keep living every day doing what I love while avoiding reckless behavior, and hope for the best. Clear eyes, full heart, can't lose.
 
KnightDoc said:
You'd be wrong. This has absolutely nothing to do with OP, who, based on his DO success, will be absolutely fine, but your supposition is premised on interviews being like random coin flips where, yeah, 13 straight tails is next to impossible.

Unfortunately (or, depending on the candidate, fortunately), interview results are far from random. It's very difficult for any candidate to run the table due to the level of competition, but it's far from impossible for an arrogant a-hole, or someone who is painfully shy, or someone who just has crappy interpersonal skills, to strike out, regardless of how many swings they get. It happens every year, and, when you think about it, it is perfectly understandable.
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You missed the point. The basic assumption when saying that having 13 interviews means it is extremely unlikely to nearly impossible that it won’t turn into at least acceptance is that they are of at least average interview skill. As has been said, it is possible to go 0/13 if you are a terrible interviewer.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
You missed the point. The basic assumption when saying that having 13 interviews means it is extremely unlikely to nearly impossible that it won’t turn into at least acceptance is that they are of at least average interview skill. As has been said, it is possible to go 0/13 if you are a terrible interviewer.
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Fair enough. I guess I thought there was no basic assumption, since, sure, having average skills in a world where roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of all interviews turn into acceptances means there is no way to have 13 and have no acceptances.

Of course (and again, this doesn't apply to OP, who has already demonstrated his bona fides through his DO As), I've known a few people who lack the self awareness to realize they are not average interviewers, so I don't think it's safe for anyone to make any basic assumptions, since, as was noted above, a measurable minority of candidates every year end up with an above average number of IIs (not necessarily 13, but still) and zero As.
 
CommyØ said:
I am in a LizzyM range where I feel like I get somewhat resource protected at low-tier schools with 510-513 medians and I feel that I am simply not great enough (metrics-wise, at least) for T20s as I am not URM/military/LGBTQIA/etc.

I have two T10 IIs, a few T30 IIs, and then a mix of low tiers and T50s. My question: is it possible to go 0-13 for interviews?

I don't think my interviews are a big problem as I have been told I had an "amazing" interview before and generally feel okay, but I can't shake the feeling that I have some reservations at every single interview I've been on. Am I just being neurotic while waiting again? I do have one waitlist already...

I also have strong LoRs/PS/narrative that has been brought up during interviews and I feel like at least one of those things is brought up at every interview. On the other hand, I bombed VITA which at least three of my schools (including one of my T10 top-choices) utilize. Do I need a slap straight across the face and be told to snap out of it? I had a lot of caffeine this morning after like 3-4 days so maybe I'm just on the edge today? I just needed to get this off my chest because none of my friends/flatmates understand or probably even know that I'm applying to medical school.Search
Click to expand...
Mathematically speaking, your chance of not getting in anywhere (even if you are only a decent interviewer, which seems not to be the case) are extremely close to 0.

There's a rough formula folks use in which you calculate (1 - post-interview acceptance rate, in decimal form) for each school and multiply them all. You're going to be fine, buddy.
 
Fresc_0 said:
What do you think the issue was?
Click to expand...
Seems like on paper they were absolutely fantastic, but they were a super poor interviewer (nervous, blanked out, not good answers), too arrogant, or gave off creepy vibes.
 
Would be exceedingly unlikely. Freak occurrences do happen but honestly you have lots of interviews already, so programs are seeing something in you. And remember lots of waitlist movement happens. Don't overthink it at this stage. Breathe!
 
ricetomed said:
Or it is fictitious!
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Wow!! You're actually accusing @gonnif of lying???? 👎

I've had my differences with advice given by both @gonnif and @Goro from time to time, but I find it impossible to believe they would come here and lie to us. I've never questioned their good faith or good intentions.
 
Fresc_0 said:
What do you think the issue was?
Click to expand...
BlueRosesGoldLeaf said:
Seems like on paper they were absolutely fantastic, but they were a super poor interviewer (nervous, blanked out, not good answers), too arrogant, or gave off creepy vibes.
Click to expand...
KnightDoc said:
Wow!! You're actually accusing @gonnif of lying???? 👎

I've had my differences with advice given by both @gonnif and @Goro from time to time, but I find it impossible to believe they would come here and lie to us. I've never questioned their good faith or good intentions.
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Super genius like sheldon but with a stern military ROTC, southern upbringing, and frankly holding in a lot of family stuff. Thus never shared anything emotional or personal. Plus low on clinical and diversity. So he 3.9/520+ goes so far. He needed softening to his presentation and share.
got multiple acceptances on third round. BTW, the guy was so stern rarely watched TV and I had to show him who Sheldon was.
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
Isn't Alabama trailer park fictitious?
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I think there is a huge difference between a metaphor and a lie. And, with respect to Brown, as I pointed out multiple times, I believe he is incorrect, not lying.
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
so fictitious = lying?
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Lying is intentionally providing false information whereas fictious info is more like limited news -- the person providing the info may not know that the info is false.

I don't know the context but I have a suspicion that Goro compared Brown to an inbreeding Alabama trailer park due to their bias for their own students. KD, at some point, ran the numbers and found that they accept less than what Goro was preaching. This is what I assume without reading KDs actual posts on the subject.
 
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EdgeTrimmer said:
so fictitious = lying?
Click to expand...
Yup!

fic·ti·tious

/fikˈtiSHəs/

adjective

adjective: fictitious

  1. not real or true, being imaginary or having been fabricated.
"she pleaded guilty to stealing thousands in taxpayer dollars by having a fictitious employee on her payroll"
 
CommyØ said:
Lying is intentionally providing false information whereas fictious info is more like limited news -- the person providing the info may not know that the info is false.

I don't know the context but I have a suspicion that Goro compared Brown to an inbreeding Alabama trailer park due to their bias for their own students. KD, at some point, ran the numbers and found that they accept less than what Goro was preaching. This is what I assume without reading KDs actual posts on the subject.
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The majority of Brown's 144 seats still go to Brown students, and those left over are so small an n that I don't think that it's worth applying there.

But hey, if you want to apply there, go ahead!
 
Goro said:
The majority of Brown's 144 seats still go to Brown students, and those left over are so small an n that I don't think that it's worth applying there.

But hey, if you want to apply there, go ahead!
Click to expand...
As per latest MSAR, out of 144 matriculated 59 are from their BSMD program and 4 from their early assurance program and as per premed office their average intake thru AAMCAS application is 10, that's 50.69% to Brown students. So you are technically correct but 71 slots are not small n. New schools like Kaiser and Dell have fewer than that, but on the other hand you said non-CA applicants shouldn't waste their time applying to Kaiser!.

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Goro said:
The majority of Brown's 144 seats still go to Brown students, and those left over are so small an n that I don't think that it's worth applying there.

But hey, if you want to apply there, go ahead!
Click to expand...
No, actually, slightly less than half of their seats are dedicated to their BS/MD program. The remaining 80-something seats are open to everyone, and they actually take far fewer students from Brown (as a % of those remaining seats) during their regular admission process than is typical for any medical school with an affiliated UG.

The fact that you do not seem to understand the distinction between a separate admissions track for a direct entry program and the regular admission program the rest of us are talking about does not change this irrefutable fact. So, on behalf of all of the wide-eyed premeds who look up to you, thanks for the bad, uninformed advice, as well as for the stale, ignorant references to the Deep South and trailer parks. 😎
 
KnightDoc said:
No, actually, slightly less than half of their seats are dedicated to their BS/MD program. The remaining 80-something seats are open to everyone, and they actually take far fewer students from Brown (as a % of those remaining seats) during their regular admission process than is typical for any medical school with an affiliated UG.

The fact that you do not seem to understand the distinction between a separate admissions track for a direct entry program and the regular admission program the rest of us are talking about does not change this irrefutable fact. So, on behalf of all of the wide-eyed premeds who look up to you, thanks for the bad, uninformed advice, as well as for the stale, ignorant references to the Deep South and trailer parks. 😎
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When addressing a point of disagreement, I find it best to do it in a collegial, aka, friendly and respectful manner. Spiking the football and including snark and sarcasm diminishes the point you are trying to make and yourself. People will be more likely to take you seriously if you do this.
 
Angus Avagadro said:
When addressing a point of disagreement, I find it best to do it in a collegial, aka, friendly and respectful manner. Spiking the football and including snark and sarcasm diminishes the point you are trying to make and yourself. People will be more likely to take you seriously if you do this.
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Fair enough, but having an adcom repeat the same falsehoods over and over again does not make them true through the act of repetition. This mischaracterization of the Brown regular admission program, and conflation with its BS/MD program, has been going on, unchallenged, for over a year. The same with repeating lame, offensive references to people who live in Alabama, or in trailer parks. Where is the sensitivity to that??
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
No, it was challenged few times but unsuccessfully 🙂
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It’s crazy this misconception still exists. Brown doesn’t favor their own undergrads, unfortunately. There is zero (0) way to opt-in to the PLME program after matriculating into Brown as an undergrad.

It may appear that they favor their undergrads because PLME has to to through AMCAS but they’ve held the Alpert med acceptance for years by that point.

Source: Brown undergrad

It would be more likely for a Brown student that isn’t a prt of the PLME program to matriculate at Tufts or NYU:

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Health Careers Advising is here to support you in your journey to a healthcare career. Whether you are exploring the various healthcare professions, are progressing through your time at Brown, or are applying to professional school, we are here for you.
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I think that the real issue is how many empty seats Brown has to fill on day 1 of the application cycle. It is far fewer than the total number of seats that will be filled by matriculants the following summer/fall because, as has been pointed out, many future matriculants have already been chosen by means outside of the standard application process. So, if you apply to Brown you are competing for one of 80 open seats and not for >100 seats that represent its incoming class size.
 
LizzyM said:
I think that the real issue is how many empty seats Brown has to fill on day 1 of the application cycle. It is far fewer than the total number of seats that will be filled by matriculants the following summer/fall because, as has been pointed out, many future matriculants have already been chosen by means outside of the standard application process. So, if you apply to Brown you are competing for one of 80 open seats and not for >100 seats that represent its incoming class size.
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True and you would think most applicants would know that (MSAR clearly shows that), but Goro constantly implies that they favor their UGs unlike any other school in the nation despite knowing that most of them are from well established PLME program. they average 10 from regular OG, so that leaves 70 for others. As I said earlier new schools start with around 50 seats and we are not discouraging anyone to apply to those.
 
I will admit, I believed these rumors as an undergraduate but seeing my classmates go through the cycle and cross-referencing MSAR/Brown Pre-health advising I became a little disheartened to see that it isn't the case that they prefer Brown undergraduate students.

Although, I can't say that I blame the admissions office. They're doing the right thing by not favoring Brown undergraduates (non-PLME) because then the medical school would turn into Brown 2.0 - Med Edition.
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
True and you would think most applicants would know that (MSAR clearly shows that), but Goro constantly implies that they favor their UGs unlike any other school in the nation despite knowing that most of them are from well established PLME program. they average 10 from regular OG, so that leaves 70 for others. As I said earlier new schools start with around 50 seats and we are not discouraging anyone to apply to those.
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The problem is that MSAR doesn't show that, last time I checked. It lumps together PLME and AMCAS data.

So just judging by MSAR can be misleading if you think there are more seats available. But as others have pointed out previously, there are other medical schools (for example, Stanford, Mayo, Kaiser) with around or fewer than 80 seats available.
 
make_things_better said:
The problem is that MSAR doesn't show that, last time I checked. It lumps together PLME and AMCAS data.

So just judging by MSAR can be misleading if you think there are more seats available. But as others have pointed out previously, there are other medical schools (for example, Stanford, Mayo, Kaiser) with around or fewer than 80 seats available.
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MSAR clearly shows BSMD and early assurance intake
 
make_things_better said:
The problem is that MSAR doesn't show that, last time I checked. It lumps together PLME and AMCAS data.

So just judging by MSAR can be misleading if you think there are more seats available. But as others have pointed out previously, there are other medical schools (for example, Stanford, Mayo, Kaiser) with around or fewer than 80 seats available.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and they certainly aren't committed to Rhode Island residents as folks are told to believe (through the general admissions process).

For IS applicants there are 88 applicants, 17 interviewed, 1 deferred, 1 EAP, and 9 PLME, which results in 15 matriculants.

If you remove the EAP and PLME folks, this means that there are 5 matriculants from RI each year--meaning they have roughly a 6.4% matriculation rate for IS applicants (5/78 after removing PLMEs). This seems absurdly low given that Rhode Island doesn't have a public IS medical school.
 
borrawin95 said:
Yeah, and they certainly aren't committed to Rhode Island residents as folks are told to believe (through the general admissions process).

For IS applicants there are 88 applicants, 17 interviewed, 1 deferred, 1 EAP, and 9 PLME, which results in 15 matriculants.

If you remove the EAP and PLME folks, this means that there are 5 matriculants from RI each year--meaning they have roughly a 6.4% matriculation rate for IS applicants (5/78 after removing PLMEs). This seems absurdly low given that Rhode Island doesn't have a public IS medical school.
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Do they get they get state funds?
 
borrawin95 said:
Yeah, and they certainly aren't committed to Rhode Island residents as folks are told to believe (through the general admissions process).

For IS applicants there are 88 applicants, 17 interviewed, 1 deferred, 1 EAP, and 9 PLME, which results in 15 matriculants.

If you remove the EAP and PLME folks, this means that there are 5 matriculants from RI each year--meaning they have roughly a 6.4% matriculation rate for IS applicants (5/78 after removing PLMEs). This seems absurdly low given that Rhode Island doesn't have a public IS medical school.
Click to expand...

Rhode Island has a populaiton of a little over 1 million and 37% of the population is under 18 or over 65. So, the pool of Rhode Island residents who could be even remotely eligible for admisson is < 700,000. For comparison, that is close to the population of of adults in San Jose, California.
 
LizzyM said:
Rhode Island has a populaiton of a little over 1 million and 37% of the population is under 18 or over 65. So, the pool of Rhode Island residents who could be even remotely eligible for admisson is < 700,000. For comparison, that is close to the population of of adults in San Jose, California.
Click to expand...

That taken into account, I think the admissions office likely had taken a different direction in admissions for the past several years. The proportion of students reporting disadvantaged status has decreased over the past several years (for all students) while MCAT and GPA scores have steadily risen. MSAR doesn't report past MCAT medians but their median MCAT was 513 only a few years ago.

However, I love to see that they're going to be more intentional about recruitment of students and faculty members of URM backgrounds in future application cycles: Update letter to the AMS Affinity Groups United

I only hope that they promote a greater link to the RI community since health disparities and primary care shortages are pretty bad here.
 
KnightDoc said:
So, on behalf of all of the wide-eyed premeds who look up to you, thanks for the bad, uninformed advice, as well as for the stale, ignorant references to the Deep South and trailer parks. 😎
Click to expand...

Yeah...no behalf of anyone, thanks.
For a user with 3500 posts and who talks with such authority about this whole process, I'm surprised you haven't actually matriculated somewhere yet.
 
LizzyM said:
I think that the real issue is how many empty seats Brown has to fill on day 1 of the application cycle. It is far fewer than the total number of seats that will be filled by matriculants the following summer/fall because, as has been pointed out, many future matriculants have already been chosen by means outside of the standard application process. So, if you apply to Brown you are competing for one of 80 open seats and not for >100 seats that represent its incoming class size.
Click to expand...
True, but this number (~80) is not THAT different from Vandy, Chicago, Stanford, Dartmouth (~90), or NYU, Cornell, Mayo and Yale (~100), to name just a few, and it's disingenuous to act as though Brown is in a class by itself and is not worth applying to if you don't come from its UG. In fact, it's very likely that most of the schools I just mentioned have fewer seats available for students not coming from their UG than Brown does.

The comments about inbreeding come from ignorance over the fact that candidates are competing for 100% of 80 seats rather than 55% of 146 seats, because the other 66 seats are just not part of the regular admission pool. They never were, and they never will be, +/- however many people drop out of the BS/MD program, unless and until the program is cancelled. So, it's pointless to say that the school heavily favors its UG candidates (inbreeding), because it doesn't. Those students are accepted through a separate program their senior year of HS, and are not part of what we are talking about.

Now, if you adcoms want to set an arbitrary number (50, 80, 100, whatever) and say that any school that has fewer than that number of seats to fill is not worth applying to, that's another matter entirely, and I'd love to hear one of you come out and say that. But if applying for one of 90 seats at Vandy is a worthwhile endeavor, given how many seats there undoubtedly go to Vandy UGs each year, why is Brown and its 80 seats a lost cause, just because it happens to have a BS/MD program that sends around 65 people year to its med school?? I'd bet the average candidate actually has a better shot at Brown, given its ranking, stats, etc. 😎
 
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JimmyPage1969 said:
Yeah...no behalf of anyone, thanks.
For a user with 3500 posts and who talks with such authority about this whole process, I'm surprised you haven't actually matriculated somewhere yet.
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I won't feel comfortable until I have 10,000 posts, so I'm racing to get there. :laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
Do they get they get state funds?
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Just about every school in the country does. Accounting for PLME, though, RI is actually pretty well represented in their class given the percent admitted and given that they are a private school.
 
KnightDoc said:
True, but this number (~80) is not THAT different from Vandy, Chicago, Stanford, Dartmouth (~90), or NYU, Cornell, Mayo and Yale (~100)
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IIRC, they do tend to get more applications than these other schools, making them slightly more "low yield." But I know people who interviewed at Brown (who didn't go to Brown for undergrad) and didn't get interviews at some of the other schools you mentioned, so I wouldn't necessarily cross them off a list.
 
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