Status
Not open for further replies.

magnum_pi

Membership Revoked
Removed
Account on Hold
Dec 21, 2013
8
0
South of Canada
wehatelecom.com
I go to an osteopathic school and have a really extensive background in sciences. I sit through the OMT classes and I search and search for evidence for these things they teach us, but there is none. It's all quackery. My school purports to teach 'evidence based medicine' yet it leaves it all behind to teach cranial sacral manipulations and other hogswash.

How do you reconcile your desire to be a true scientific clinician with this very obvious false pseudoscience? Do you just ignore it and accept it as part of the osteopathic MS experience? :(

I am sure I am not the only one here that wants to to scream during OMT classes.
 

Kevin Baker

7+ Year Member
Jun 25, 2010
764
74
Status
Resident [Any Field]
I try to spend equal time doing lit searches on OMT as I do reviewing it for classes/boards/etc. Makes my soul feel better and it looks a lot better when you can cite the studies rather than just state craniosacral therapy is bunk.
 
Last edited:
Oct 31, 2013
122
106
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Just accept that people are going to be irrational for as long as there are people. Case in point: mormonism is still going strong. Memorize what they want you to memorize, and then forget it and move on after boards.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChrisGriffen

Petypet

7+ Year Member
Sep 28, 2009
781
692
Ohio
Status
Attending Physician
There is some literature that demonstrates some of the manipulative techniques, hvla/me to have some benefit. There is very little, modern, supporting literature for most of the non chiropractic-like techniques. When I asked some professors they referenced me to a book that references articles that are 50 years old. That is clearly not science.

Learn what you need to learn for exams and move on. Stressing about not learning in an evidence-based methodology will just consume time and you won't make any changes to the field. C'est la vie.
 

SLC

A Punk rock Country doc
7+ Year Member
Mar 24, 2010
3,703
3,819
The Empire
Status
Attending Physician
Just accept that people are going to be irrational for as long as there are people. Case in point: mormonism is still going strong. Memorize what they want you to memorize, and then forget it and move on after boards.
Also accept that people are going to be crass and bigoted as long as there are people, apparently.

I hope you're proud of that little quip Metopic.
 

Roberie

10+ Year Member
Sep 24, 2008
364
64
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Just get through your first two years and you shouldnt have to worry about it much after that. Just nod and smile and learn what they expect to jump through the hoops. Beyond your PE exam you won't have to practice OMT and after Level 3 you won't have to remember any of the somatic dysfunction business.
 
Nov 30, 2013
323
207
Status
Medical Student
despite the recent push to this new EBM philosophy, not everything in medicine is evidence based. remember, medicine is not only science but "an art." There isn't much good double blinded randomized studies, but it does help patients. If you don't like it just fake it until you make it and then move on with your life.
 
Oct 31, 2013
122
106
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Also accept that people are going to be crass and bigoted as long as there are people, apparently.

I hope you're proud of that little quip Metopic.
I'm sorry, it's been a tough week what with the mormon church announcing all their prophets being racist before the '70's was just them being mean and not anything from god. Oh that and them admitting Joe Smith married a 14 year old girl. I should have picked a different religion. Feel free and substitute any other belief system you are skeptical of.
 
Nov 30, 2013
323
207
Status
Medical Student
I'm sorry, it's been a tough week what with the mormon church announcing all their prophets being racist before the '70's was just them being mean and not anything from god. Oh that and them admitting Joe Smith married a 14 year old girl. I should have picked a different religion. Feel free and substitute any other belief system you are skeptical of.
Don't compare believing in Mormonism (or any religion) with believing OMT. Just bad form.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NurWollen and SLC

thecgrblue

Enjoyin' the journey
7+ Year Member
Jul 6, 2009
794
16
Status
I'm sorry, it's been a tough week what with the mormon church announcing all their prophets being racist before the '70's was just them being mean and not anything from god. Oh that and them admitting Joe Smith married a 14 year old girl. I should have picked a different religion. Feel free and substitute any other belief system you are skeptical of.
When did SDN become reddit?

Keep your wonderful attitude, I'm sure you'll never run into a single physician with a religion they practice.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SLC

Mr Kenobi

Jedi Member
7+ Year Member
Jul 10, 2012
1,478
930
Tatooine
Status
Don't compare believing in Mormonism (or any religion) with believing OMT. Just bad form.
Coincidentally, the other day I initiated a debate about the need to modernize the OPP curriculum in today's osteopathic medical schools with one of the OMM department chairs. When he ran out of viable arguments he ended up comparing his belief in OMM to his faith in God... I believe it was evident who won this debate to all who were witness to it.
 
Nov 30, 2013
323
207
Status
Medical Student
Coincidentally, the other day I initiated a debate about the need to modernize the OPP curriculum in today's osteopathic medical schools with one of the OMM department chairs. When he ran out of viable arguments he ended up comparing his belief in OMM to his faith in God... I believe it was evident who won this debate to all who were witness to it.
:bang:
 

touchpause13

nolite te bastardes carborundorum
5+ Year Member
Jun 25, 2012
14,430
14,024
The North
Coincidentally, the other day I initiated a debate about the need to modernize the OPP curriculum in today's osteopathic medical schools with one of the OMM department chairs. When he ran out of viable arguments he ended up comparing his belief in OMM to his faith in God... I believe it was evident who won this debate to all who were witness to it.
1387743383485.jpg
 

SLC

A Punk rock Country doc
7+ Year Member
Mar 24, 2010
3,703
3,819
The Empire
Status
Attending Physician
I'm sorry, it's been a tough week what with the mormon church announcing all their prophets being racist before the '70's was just them being mean and not anything from god. Oh that and them admitting Joe Smith married a 14 year old girl. I should have picked a different religion. Feel free and substitute any other belief system you are skeptical of.
Yeah, because targeting a different set of beliefs for ridicule makes it so much more appropriate :rolleyes:

Like I said, crass and bigoted.
 

Bacchus

Staff member
Administrator
10+ Year Member
Apr 28, 2007
21,011
2,308
Status
Attending Physician
Let's get back on topic.
 

nardini46

DO
10+ Year Member
Jan 27, 2009
185
14
Status
Resident [Any Field]
There are some things to take away from OMM. The rest is garbage. Cram it in last minute.
 

cliquesh

10+ Year Member
Nov 2, 2007
3,090
1,089
Status
Resident [Any Field]
I agree. There is not much, if any, science behind OMM. It feels good, though, and I ask my girlfriend, who is also a DO, to perform OMM on me pretty much everyday.
 

NurWollen

Strong with the Force
10+ Year Member
Dec 27, 2007
3,429
2,368
United States
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Just accept that people are going to be irrational for as long as there are people. Case in point: mormonism is still going strong. Memorize what they want you to memorize, and then forget it and move on after boards.
I'm sorry, it's been a tough week what with the mormon church announcing all their prophets being racist before the '70's was just them being mean and not anything from god. Oh that and them admitting Joe Smith married a 14 year old girl. I should have picked a different religion. Feel free and substitute any other belief system you are skeptical of.
I hope you have a Mormon program director in residency.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SLC
Oct 31, 2013
122
106
Status
Resident [Any Field]
I hope you have a Mormon program director in residency.
I love mormons! And I don't talk about religion at work. That doesn't make irrational belief systems any less silly! OMM suffers from the same cognitive biases as any other false belief that avoids the evidence.
 

Doctor Bob

EM/CC
10+ Year Member
Feb 12, 2009
1,832
2,244
Orlando
Status
Attending Physician
The problem that OMM will continually run into is the near-inability to run a true blinded randomized trial. And that's just because of the nature of the intervention; you can't blind the operator to the intervention and there isn't a good placebo-match. So the research data will always be slightly flawed.

If you want to believe the data you'll overlook the flaws. If you don't want to believe the data you'll accentuate the flaws.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Haxx

Petypet

7+ Year Member
Sep 28, 2009
781
692
Ohio
Status
Attending Physician
The problem that OMM will continually run into is the near-inability to run a true blinded randomized trial. And that's just because of the nature of the intervention; you can't blind the operator to the intervention and there isn't a good placebo-match. So the research data will always be slightly flawed.

If you want to believe the data you'll overlook the flaws. If you don't want to believe the data you'll accentuate the flaws.
Agree but also disagree. Almost any medical intervention suffers some level of bias, or hurdles. To say the experiment can't be done because of some limitation demonstrates lack of creativity from the researcher. Also, the field doesn't necessarily need a complete blinded randomized trial to demonstrated the efficacy of OMT. I actually think it would be tougher to get IRB/NIH approval for such study since there is so little preliminary data in most branches of OMM.

I mean, for example, the cranial rhythm impulse. Is there any MRI data supporting that? Seems like a good place to start to demonstrate that the pulse exists, so that the field can't build a foundation to stand on. Instead osteopaths have been learning CRI for years with nothing to support it.
 

touchpause13

nolite te bastardes carborundorum
5+ Year Member
Jun 25, 2012
14,430
14,024
The North
I love mormons! And I don't talk about religion at work. That doesn't make irrational belief systems any less silly! OMM suffers from the same cognitive biases as any other false belief that avoids the evidence.
IMO all faith and religion are illogical. That doesn't make it worthless, by any means, but it's just not rational.
 

SLC

A Punk rock Country doc
7+ Year Member
Mar 24, 2010
3,703
3,819
The Empire
Status
Attending Physician
The problem that OMM will continually run into is the near-inability to run a true blinded randomized trial. And that's just because of the nature of the intervention; you can't blind the operator to the intervention and there isn't a good placebo-match. So the research data will always be slightly flawed.

If you want to believe the data you'll overlook the flaws. If you don't want to believe the data you'll accentuate the flaws.
You can blind the patient, and you can blind the researcher. It would be easy to have a single DO (who was only peripherally involved in the research) perform manipulation, while the data collection and interpretation people do not know who was treated and who wasn't until after the numbers have been crunched.

It's always been a lack of decent funding for Osteopathic research at the root of the issue IMO.
 

touchpause13

nolite te bastardes carborundorum
5+ Year Member
Jun 25, 2012
14,430
14,024
The North
You have a minority viewpoint. Merry Christmas
I still celebrate christmas lol. I'm not sure if you were trying to insult me with well wishings, because that is a bit odd don't you think? Merry Christmas to you as well.

I'm not trying to insult anyone who has faith or a religion they follow. If that is what gives you peace or brings you hope then that is wonderful for you. My only point was that religion is illogical and therefore trying to debate it using logic is pointless. Hence why I am all for supporting people in whatever beliefs they have or do not have (no matter if I personally find them a bit silly)
 

stlrams22

Membership Revoked
Removed
Jun 1, 2011
490
145
Status
Pre-Medical
I still celebrate christmas lol. I'm not sure if you were trying to insult me with well wishings, because that is a bit odd don't you think? Merry Christmas to you as well.

I'm not trying to insult anyone who has faith or a religion they follow. If that is what gives you peace or brings you hope then that is wonderful for you. My only point was that religion is illogical and therefore trying to debate it using logic is pointless. Hence why I am all for supporting people in whatever beliefs they have or do not have (no matter if I personally find them a bit silly)
You come across as sounding like "religion is illogical" is a given fact everyone agrees on. It is illogical to celebrate Christmas since you don't believe in any type of religion....what is there to celebrate?

It was also illogical to place your post about your beliefs on religion and faith since it is not related to this discussion.

Leave it to an atheist to interject their viewpoints when no one asks, especially around Christmas time.
 

touchpause13

nolite te bastardes carborundorum
5+ Year Member
Jun 25, 2012
14,430
14,024
The North
I never posted my own beliefs on this thread. I'd appreciate if you responded to the things I have actually said instead of putting words in my mouth. But everyone does like to see a good strawman argument.

I commented because I felt like mormonism was being unjustifiably targeted, and that's coming from an atheist who has some serious issues with the church of latter day saints.
 
Jul 8, 2013
143
74
Status
Pre-Medical
You come across as sounding like "religion is illogical" is a given fact everyone agrees on. It is illogical to celebrate Christmas since you don't believe in any type of religion....what is there to celebrate?

It was also illogical to place your post about your beliefs on religion and faith since it is not related to this discussion.

Leave it to an atheist to interject their viewpoints when no one asks, especially around Christmas time.
Touchpause was in no way trying to push any beliefs on anyone, just stating a fact. All religions past and present are illogical and will remain as such until sufficient proof is provided to back them up. It is in no way a personal attack its just a dose of reality. As for Christmas, it was celebrated before the pope deemed it a christian holiday as Saturnalia, a pagan festival to honor the Roman god Saturn so one's religion has almost nothing to do with Christmas (even though most desperately want it to). So hey, if you want to hold onto the belief that religion is logical fine I couldn't care less, but you have to accept that santa is real and the illuminati run the country. What I'm trying to say is, just be intellectually honest and consistent with yourself, for your future patients' sake.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BuddyTheElf

group_theory

EX-TER-MIN-ATE!'
Staff member
Administrator
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2002
4,672
1,576
Status
Attending Physician


Closing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.