How to address OMT concerns

[magnum_pi]

I go to an osteopathic school and have a really extensive background in sciences. I sit through the OMT classes and I search and search for evidence for these things they teach us, but there is none. It's all quackery. My school purports to teach 'evidence based medicine' yet it leaves it all behind to teach cranial sacral manipulations and other hogswash.

How do you reconcile your desire to be a true scientific clinician with this very obvious false pseudoscience? Do you just ignore it and accept it as part of the osteopathic MS experience?

I am sure I am not the only one here that wants to to scream during OMT classes.

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[Kevin Baker]

I try to spend equal time doing lit searches on OMT as I do reviewing it for classes/boards/etc. Makes my soul feel better and it looks a lot better when you can cite the studies rather than just state craniosacral therapy is bunk.

 

[metopic]

Just accept that people are going to be irrational for as long as there are people. Case in point: mormonism is still going strong. Memorize what they want you to memorize, and then forget it and move on after boards.

 

[Petypet]

There is some literature that demonstrates some of the manipulative techniques, hvla/me to have some benefit. There is very little, modern, supporting literature for most of the non chiropractic-like techniques. When I asked some professors they referenced me to a book that references articles that are 50 years old. That is clearly not science.

Learn what you need to learn for exams and move on. Stressing about not learning in an evidence-based methodology will just consume time and you won't make any changes to the field. C'est la vie.

 

[SLC]

Just accept that people are going to be irrational for as long as there are people. Case in point: mormonism is still going strong. Memorize what they want you to memorize, and then forget it and move on after boards.

Also accept that people are going to be crass and bigoted as long as there are people, apparently.

I hope you're proud of that little quip Metopic.

 

[Roberie]

Just get through your first two years and you shouldnt have to worry about it much after that. Just nod and smile and learn what they expect to jump through the hoops. Beyond your PE exam you won't have to practice OMT and after Level 3 you won't have to remember any of the somatic dysfunction business.

 

[MerickManual]

despite the recent push to this new EBM philosophy, not everything in medicine is evidence based. remember, medicine is not only science but "an art." There isn't much good double blinded randomized studies, but it does help patients. If you don't like it just fake it until you make it and then move on with your life.

 

[metopic]

Also accept that people are going to be crass and bigoted as long as there are people, apparently.

I hope you're proud of that little quip Metopic.

I'm sorry, it's been a tough week what with the mormon church announcing all their prophets being racist before the '70's was just them being mean and not anything from god. Oh that and them admitting Joe Smith married a 14 year old girl. I should have picked a different religion. Feel free and substitute any other belief system you are skeptical of.

 

[MerickManual]

I'm sorry, it's been a tough week what with the mormon church announcing all their prophets being racist before the '70's was just them being mean and not anything from god. Oh that and them admitting Joe Smith married a 14 year old girl. I should have picked a different religion. Feel free and substitute any other belief system you are skeptical of.

Don't compare believing in Mormonism (or any religion) with believing OMT. Just bad form.

 

[thecgrblue]

I'm sorry, it's been a tough week what with the mormon church announcing all their prophets being racist before the '70's was just them being mean and not anything from god. Oh that and them admitting Joe Smith married a 14 year old girl. I should have picked a different religion. Feel free and substitute any other belief system you are skeptical of.

When did SDN become reddit?

Keep your wonderful attitude, I'm sure you'll never run into a single physician with a religion they practice.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Don't compare believing in Mormonism (or any religion) with believing OMT. Just bad form.

Coincidentally, the other day I initiated a debate about the need to modernize the OPP curriculum in today's osteopathic medical schools with one of the OMM department chairs. When he ran out of viable arguments he ended up comparing his belief in OMM to his faith in God... I believe it was evident who won this debate to all who were witness to it.

 

[MerickManual]

Coincidentally, the other day I initiated a debate about the need to modernize the OPP curriculum in today's osteopathic medical schools with one of the OMM department chairs. When he ran out of viable arguments he ended up comparing his belief in OMM to his faith in God... I believe it was evident who won this debate to all who were witness to it.

 

[touchpause13]

Coincidentally, the other day I initiated a debate about the need to modernize the OPP curriculum in today's osteopathic medical schools with one of the OMM department chairs. When he ran out of viable arguments he ended up comparing his belief in OMM to his faith in God... I believe it was evident who won this debate to all who were witness to it.

 

[SLC]

I'm sorry, it's been a tough week what with the mormon church announcing all their prophets being racist before the '70's was just them being mean and not anything from god. Oh that and them admitting Joe Smith married a 14 year old girl. I should have picked a different religion. Feel free and substitute any other belief system you are skeptical of.

Yeah, because targeting a different set of beliefs for ridicule makes it so much more appropriate

Like I said, crass and bigoted.

 

[Bacchus]

Let's get back on topic.

 

[deleted480308]

as a med student, I should have no OM concerns. My concerns are limited to grades, test scores, and LORs....

If it doesn't harm me getting a residency, it doesn't matter

 

[nardini46]

There are some things to take away from OMM. The rest is garbage. Cram it in last minute.

 

[cliquesh]

I agree. There is not much, if any, science behind OMM. It feels good, though, and I ask my girlfriend, who is also a DO, to perform OMM on me pretty much everyday.

 

[NurWollen]

Just accept that people are going to be irrational for as long as there are people. Case in point: mormonism is still going strong. Memorize what they want you to memorize, and then forget it and move on after boards.

I'm sorry, it's been a tough week what with the mormon church announcing all their prophets being racist before the '70's was just them being mean and not anything from god. Oh that and them admitting Joe Smith married a 14 year old girl. I should have picked a different religion. Feel free and substitute any other belief system you are skeptical of.

I hope you have a Mormon program director in residency.

 

[metopic]

I hope you have a Mormon program director in residency.

I love mormons! And I don't talk about religion at work. That doesn't make irrational belief systems any less silly! OMM suffers from the same cognitive biases as any other false belief that avoids the evidence.

 

[Doctor Bob]

The problem that OMM will continually run into is the near-inability to run a true blinded randomized trial. And that's just because of the nature of the intervention; you can't blind the operator to the intervention and there isn't a good placebo-match. So the research data will always be slightly flawed.

If you want to believe the data you'll overlook the flaws. If you don't want to believe the data you'll accentuate the flaws.

 

[Petypet]

The problem that OMM will continually run into is the near-inability to run a true blinded randomized trial. And that's just because of the nature of the intervention; you can't blind the operator to the intervention and there isn't a good placebo-match. So the research data will always be slightly flawed.

If you want to believe the data you'll overlook the flaws. If you don't want to believe the data you'll accentuate the flaws.

Agree but also disagree. Almost any medical intervention suffers some level of bias, or hurdles. To say the experiment can't be done because of some limitation demonstrates lack of creativity from the researcher. Also, the field doesn't necessarily need a complete blinded randomized trial to demonstrated the efficacy of OMT. I actually think it would be tougher to get IRB/NIH approval for such study since there is so little preliminary data in most branches of OMM.

I mean, for example, the cranial rhythm impulse. Is there any MRI data supporting that? Seems like a good place to start to demonstrate that the pulse exists, so that the field can't build a foundation to stand on. Instead osteopaths have been learning CRI for years with nothing to support it.

 

[touchpause13]

I love mormons! And I don't talk about religion at work. That doesn't make irrational belief systems any less silly! OMM suffers from the same cognitive biases as any other false belief that avoids the evidence.

IMO all faith and religion are illogical. That doesn't make it worthless, by any means, but it's just not rational.

 

[SLC]

The problem that OMM will continually run into is the near-inability to run a true blinded randomized trial. And that's just because of the nature of the intervention; you can't blind the operator to the intervention and there isn't a good placebo-match. So the research data will always be slightly flawed.

If you want to believe the data you'll overlook the flaws. If you don't want to believe the data you'll accentuate the flaws.

You can blind the patient, and you can blind the researcher. It would be easy to have a single DO (who was only peripherally involved in the research) perform manipulation, while the data collection and interpretation people do not know who was treated and who wasn't until after the numbers have been crunched.

It's always been a lack of decent funding for Osteopathic research at the root of the issue IMO.

 

[stlrams22]

IMO all faith and religion are illogical. That doesn't make it worthless, by any means, but it's just not rational.

You have a minority viewpoint. Merry Christmas

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You have a minority viewpoint. Merry Christmas

Happy Saturnalia and Festivus, your god doesn't arrive for another few months.

 

[touchpause13]

You have a minority viewpoint. Merry Christmas

I still celebrate christmas lol. I'm not sure if you were trying to insult me with well wishings, because that is a bit odd don't you think? Merry Christmas to you as well.

I'm not trying to insult anyone who has faith or a religion they follow. If that is what gives you peace or brings you hope then that is wonderful for you. My only point was that religion is illogical and therefore trying to debate it using logic is pointless. Hence why I am all for supporting people in whatever beliefs they have or do not have (no matter if I personally find them a bit silly)

 

[stlrams22]

I still celebrate christmas lol. I'm not sure if you were trying to insult me with well wishings, because that is a bit odd don't you think? Merry Christmas to you as well.

I'm not trying to insult anyone who has faith or a religion they follow. If that is what gives you peace or brings you hope then that is wonderful for you. My only point was that religion is illogical and therefore trying to debate it using logic is pointless. Hence why I am all for supporting people in whatever beliefs they have or do not have (no matter if I personally find them a bit silly)

You come across as sounding like "religion is illogical" is a given fact everyone agrees on. It is illogical to celebrate Christmas since you don't believe in any type of religion....what is there to celebrate?

It was also illogical to place your post about your beliefs on religion and faith since it is not related to this discussion.

Leave it to an atheist to interject their viewpoints when no one asks, especially around Christmas time.

 

[touchpause13]

I never posted my own beliefs on this thread. I'd appreciate if you responded to the things I have actually said instead of putting words in my mouth. But everyone does like to see a good strawman argument.

I commented because I felt like mormonism was being unjustifiably targeted, and that's coming from an atheist who has some serious issues with the church of latter day saints.

 

[CooIBreeze]

You come across as sounding like "religion is illogical" is a given fact everyone agrees on. It is illogical to celebrate Christmas since you don't believe in any type of religion....what is there to celebrate?

It was also illogical to place your post about your beliefs on religion and faith since it is not related to this discussion.

Leave it to an atheist to interject their viewpoints when no one asks, especially around Christmas time.

Touchpause was in no way trying to push any beliefs on anyone, just stating a fact. All religions past and present are illogical and will remain as such until sufficient proof is provided to back them up. It is in no way a personal attack its just a dose of reality. As for Christmas, it was celebrated before the pope deemed it a christian holiday as Saturnalia, a pagan festival to honor the Roman god Saturn so one's religion has almost nothing to do with Christmas (even though most desperately want it to). So hey, if you want to hold onto the belief that religion is logical fine I couldn't care less, but you have to accept that santa is real and the illuminati run the country. What I'm trying to say is, just be intellectually honest and consistent with yourself, for your future patients' sake.

 

[group_theory]

Closing.