How to DEAL....

DoggieLover

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Hi all,
My bf just started med school and he's already super stressed...since I have break from school now all I want to do is spend time with him but he never has time with me. I knew to expect this but didn't realize how hard it could be: to constantly feel like I'm on his schedule, to clean/cook/bring food for him without him seeming to notice, to try my best to be supporting in all aspects of his life when I don't feel like he's taking the time to be supportive in mine...sometimes I get so frustrated that I don't even enjoy the little time that we do get to spend together. Even when we do spend time together I feel that his mind is not completely there and I feel angry- it makes me feel like I'm not important enough. I know he loves me and wants to spend time with me but it's just so frustrating! I try to give him his time to study so I hang out with my friends during the day and test him/do whatever he wants to do at night, but I'm beginning to wonder how our relationship is going to last when this is only his first year. I mean, does it ever get better than this? Please give advice on how I can try to save our relationship because I love him with all my heart, and I want to make this work, especially before I start grad school as well, which means even more stress on the relationship! THanks, I really would appreciate any advice!

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I don't know what to tell you; it doesn't get easier, but you do adjust (both of you). He should (and could) at least be appreciative when you cook for him/bring him stuff/do stuff for him...he may be stressed but it doesn't cost him anything to say "thank you". Hopefully, as he adjusts to med school, he will begin to realize that maybe he doesn't have to work QUITE as hard as he is working...and will relax a little and at least be able to enjoy the time you do have to spend together. My best advice to you is for both of you to try to enjoy the time you do have together and concentrate on each other than. I know it's hard to do when you feel you don't have enough time together, but spending the time you do have together fighting about not having more time together is unproductive and just makes everything worse. Believe me, I've been there, and I know it's easier said than done...but do it anyway. If you can at least spend the time you do have together enjoying each other things will be much better. It's true to some degree that you're probably going to have to be more supportive of him than he is of you for awhile, that's just the way it is. He should make an effort to be supportive of you in the ways that you need, or the relationship won't last, but on the other hand you can't expect it to always be 50-50 especially during the stressful periods. Try to remember that how much time he spends with you does NOT equate to how much he loves you...I used to get hung up on that one and get a lot more upset about it than I needed to be. I'm sure he does love you, and the fact that he's busy right now doesn't change that. Basically, making a relationship with a med student/resident/doctor work takes a lot of maturity on BOTH sides and having your priorities in order. It's going to be hard, and a lot of relationships don't make it. I think the best things you can do are to accept the time that he has to spend with you and try to enjoy it, keep yourself busy and occupied with a life outside of your relationship, and hope that as he gets used to med school he'll relax a bit and have more time for you. You just can't have the same expectations as you would for a relationship with someone who wasn't in med school or another demanding career, or you'll be disappointed. It can work though and if you really love him it's worth it. My husband and I are both in med school and we're very happy together, and actually manage to make time to do non-medical stuff like visit family, go out with friends, and spend time with each other in addition to doing our school stuff...so it's possible, with good time management and the attitude that you don't have to be the best in every class every time.
 
Thank you so much for your insight and advice, I really appreciate it! It's great to know that there are other people out there that understand and went through the same exact thing I am currently going through now. It is very hard to admit that I'm not going to be as big of a priority in his life (at least for now) but I know that he's working his butt off so that we can both have a better life later on. You are completely right when you say that the time he spends with me doesn't equal his love for me, and I realize now. Thanks again for the great advice!
 
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If you have a meaningful, rich life without him, you will enjoy life with him a lot more.

This is going to be a time when he will not be able to meet many of your needs - emotional, physical, financial, etc.. You need to develop other interests and friends that fill those gaps, so that you can enjoy your time together and not feel resentful at how limited your time and activities are together.

Just as he has other competing priorities right now, you will have other priorities if the two of you have children together, or if you have a demanding job. These adjustments are part of a normal relationship, and healthy couples learn to deal with them well.

I also really recommend that you not automatically cook, clean, and buy groceries for him. Most med students manage to do this for themselves, and he can too; it is a nice gift if someone does it for us, but it is not necessary. If you feel that he doesn't appreciate your efforts, then don't do it.
 
I've been going out with friends, taking up hobbies, and deciding to do things without expecting that he will be there all the time. However, when I do, I can't help but feel guilty about having all this fun without him: I want to always be there for him whenever he does have time, and not make him resentful of the fact that he has to stay home and study while I go out without him. Sometimes I make plans with friends and then he decides that he is going to take a study break and wants to hang out--then I'm at a catch 22, which goes back to me feeling that everything is on his schedule. Last weekend I didn't clean for him, bring him food, etc, but all he did was get mad at me for making his life harder (I think he took some of his stress out on me). I feel like no matter how much I try to make things work between us we end up disagreeing on how to make it work or frustrated that it isn't working despite our efforts. He tells me that he appreciates everything that I do but many times I still end up unhappy because it seems like I'm the one who has to adapt to him, fill his needs, take care of him, and give give give while receiving only words in return. Once grad school starts for me I'll be stressed too, and he'll probably be the same way he is now, so how is it fair that I have to juggle all these conflicting emotions and give so much while he does little in return?
 
The feeling of wanting to always keep yourself available in case he is suddenly and miraculously available, is one you'll need to work on. I'm still struggling with it myself. Make firm plans and stick to them. Try to anticipate the ebb and flow of his workload.

For example, in first year I could plan ahead knowing that he'd be both unavailable and needy right before a test (I'd try to get him meals on time, do little extras like pack him food to go, keep the house tidy so he didn't have to worry about doing it himself) but that he'd go overboard paying me back right after the test (running errands galore the first days, taking me out to dinner or making me special meals and such).

Now that we're in third year, second rotation I know that he's getting more stressed as he has to go to work early these weeks, but there's no call so I try to keep my evenings open and to stay on top of housework and have quick meals ready for when I know he's coming home. When he does have call I'm going to make plans with some friends I need to catch up with, get deeper into my hobbies, etc.

Remember, you're equal partners. When you give of yourself to make his life easier, you're doing so freely and not out of obligation. In particular, since you're bf/gf (how serious?) rather than husband/wife there's even less obligation involved -- as someone's said, many many med students get along just fine without someone to wash their underwear when things get hectic. ;) He should be grateful for what you can do, and yes it's fair to expect that if there is a low spot in his workload he should schedule things to make you a priority whereever possible.

Maybe sometime after his next exam you can sit down and talk about how to make things more fair.
 
My bf and I have been together for about three years now, and things are pretty serious between us. For the most part, I love to do things for him to make his life easier, but at the same time I do feel a little resentment of the fact that it doesn't feel like its a "two way street" where we are "equal partners". The problem has probably more to do with me and my feelings than him: He tells me how appreciative and thankful he is about what I do for him and how lucky he is to have me, but I feel like those are just words that have no meaning without actions backing it up. His rationale is that he wants to be the top of his class to get a great surgical residency so he must study like a madman. I guess I feel horrible when I see his classmates out having fun with their respective partners and not studying as hard as him because I want that as well. It is possible to still get a great residency without being top of your class, right?

By the way, thank you all for your insight, it is very much appreciated. Although I know that everything is just the tip of the iceberg, you all have given me hope that things will work out as long as I have the patience and understanding to WORK at it.

I do need to sit down and have a talk with him regarding scheduling and the feelings I have, I just have to wait till after his exams to do so, but I'm also scared that (because we aren't married and there isn't that grounded security) even after all the hard work things still won't work out between us . Which brings me to my next question: Even though we aren't even considering marriage until after he finishes med school, I feel like all the things that I'm doing for him is what a wife does for a husband (but without the "marriage" security). Some of my friends say that I don't have to cook/clean/etc all the time or schedule my life around his because I'm not his wife while others say that I should. I guess I'm just confused about the role I play and should play in his life.

PS- amk25a, good luck in applying to med school!
 
I think it gets worse (residency, fellowship) before it gets better.
 
My husband is a first year also, we've solved this problem by starting to schedule a day/time together each week---we adjust it based on his schedule. Generally each Sunday I will say "okay--what day this week can I have you to myself?" So he will look at his schedule that week and we will set something up. I like doing this because I know I will have his full attention and then I look forward to that time. We do things during that time that I want to do and I really like it. Try not to read to much into your boyfriend's attitude right now because my husband and I have been married three years and have a good marriage and we are experiencing what you describing. If you were married you'd probably be having the same feelings. Do what you want for him because you love him---if it feels like to much and he isn't appreciating it---pull back. There are more single med students than married/coupled and they seem to not go hungry or have a full time attendant. I don't cook for my husband evey night--he knows how to make a sandwich-- so on nights when I do make a great meal he really appreciates it. Finally as the other poster said--any relationship will go through times when one person gives more/sacrifices more than the other the key is that ultimately you know that your partner loves you and will take whatever steps necessary to nurture and keep the relationship healthy. Good luck! :luck:
 
Unfortunately, my bf and I don't live together....I live about an hour away (our schools are that far apart and my parents don't approve of us living together before marriage because they are very traditional) and drive down to see him and take care of him whenever he has time. I guess that makes things THAT much harder because I basically have to ask him what his schedule is, pack my things, bring my dog, and drive down there just to cook/clean/take care of him AND his dog without spending any quality time with him and then drive up through traffic after a couple of days just to repeat the cycle all over again.

The definete perks are the fact that I'd be able to sleep in the same bed next to him and get glances of him during his study breaks, but that also means that scheduling times with my friends is very hard because usually I'm gone on the weekends when they have time to hang out (they all have M-F 9-5 jobs) and if we do hang out it means that I'll have to drive even further to meet them. He doesn't come up to see me because he wants to stay near school so he can go study in lab, have study groups, and not waste the time he needs for studying to drive (which is understandable), so it's always me driving to see him. His place doesn't even have a TV (he thinks its a distraction) so imagine how bored I get when I'm over there, especially since his school is kind of in the middle of no where!!!

The reason why it's hard for me to feel secure is because one time when we argued he brought up the fact that maybe we need a break (he said that it might be better and less stressful for both of us). Later on he apologized and said to me that he didn't mean what he said (he was just angry and immature to say that) and he can't imagine his world without me. He talks about how our children are going to be like and our future all the time, but to me, I can't just dismiss what was said when we argued because I start thinking "then why am I doing all of this and investing so much"? I guess that was another source of my resentment too.

But I understand your point: I need to be secure enough in myself and in our relationship to make it a point to schedule/organize my time with his, communicate to him what my needs are, make it clear to him that he needs to work on the relationship as well, and support his decisions even though I disagree with some.

I talked to my bf briefly last night in between his exams, and since I'm heading to see him this weekend, I definetely will bring all of this to his attention, especially since he will have time now (afer his exams). I know I shouldn't expect a miraculous transformation in my feelings of being ignored and bumped down from his priority list since it takes time to get used to and adapt to the sudden stresses of him going to med school, but now I can draw strength from the past experiences of others whom have felt and feel the same way. I just had no idea how stressful this was going to be on me, and I'm not even in med school!
 
Medical school and residency is a long and difficult process. As a resident married to a resident I have a few pointers for you. Don't try to tell him that he doesn't need to be at the top of his class. If he really wants to do that, then you suggesting that he do otherwise will only create conflict between the 2 of you. He won't change his view. If he wants to go to a prestigious surgical residency, especially a subspecialty, he DOES need to do as well as he can. He may relax a bit over time as he adjusts to med school. However with each new hurdle, board exams, clinical rotations, residency applications, etc, he will become more stressed again. Residency presents new challenges. Surgical residencies are the longest (6-7 years) and tend to be the more rigorous of residencies.
You 2 may be able to come up with a way of dealing with your relationship that works for you both, but he will never be able to equally reciprocate the things that you can do for him. He won't have the time or the energy to give you all the attention that you deserve and that he would otherwise like to give you. That doesn't mean though that you can't work out a system that will work for you. It's essential that you realize that he won't and can't give himself fully to you and won't be able to for many, many years (not just during medical school). A medical career makes demands on the physican that don't happen in many other fields. This has a huge impact on the friends and family of the physican. Over time as you both adjust you may figure out what role you want to fill in the relationship and be comfortable with that, but be careful not to count on things changing after a year or two and getting miraculously better. You will need to come to terms with the career path that he has chosen and what that means for your relationship.
Don't get into the habit of doing household things for him if you don't want to be doing those things for the rest of your relationship. Things don't change when you get married. Preexisting patterns, personality traits, and roles become even more pronounced once you live together and are married. A wise wife once told a recent bride, "Don't start picking up his socks if you don't want to pick them up for 50 years."
 
amk25a said:
When my wife (gf at the time) was going through med school, we dealt with many of the same issues you are facing now. And unfortunately it only got worse in second year. Clinical years weren't as bad but only because she did most of her rotations away.

Overall, what worked for us was knowing what each other's schedules were. I knew she wanted to study a certain number of hours a day, so while she was studying, I went and did my own thing. I tried to be out of the apt as much as possible while she was studying so she'd be able to concentrate and get done quicker. For dinner, sometimes I'd do all the cooking, and sometimes she'd take a quick break to help me start and then a second quick break to eat. We'd try to make a lot of food at once over the weekend to minimize the time spent cooking during the week.

It's not much better now that she's in residency. She's a surgery intern and she's having to get up at 3:45AM to get to work by 5AM (it's a 45-minute commute for her) and then she's not home until about 6PM on a good day. She has call every 3rd or 4th night which means getting up at 3:45AM the first day and not getting home until about 2PM the FOLLOWING day! I've adjusted by going to bed early with her (~9:30PM) and getting up with her to fix her breakfast and coffee for the road. Not having to do that herself gives her an extra 5 minutes of sleep. It's a little harder for me to find things to do myself right now because we just moved to a different state a few months ago for her residency so I'm still getting to meet new people.

I know all this probably sounds depressing but you don't have to see it that way. I want my wife to be successful in whatever she does and I know that I'll have had a hand in it. I love her very much and one of my ways of showing it is to support her in any way that I can. But relationships are a two-way street. It will only work if you don't feel like you're being taken advantage of. That means your bf needs to realize he can't always take. The moment he starts expecting and taking for granted the things you're doing for him, you need to talk about it. Otherwise you'll start having feelings of resentment and your relationship will become self-destructive.

I too was in grad school while my wife was in med school. At least in my case, research tended to be relatively flexible because I was done with my classes by the time she had started med school.

But I have something else going for me. I also know that one day she'll reciprocate because we've decided to send me to med school too as soon as I get in somewhere :).

oh my god, there are other men in the world who share my situation! my gf (hopefully wife at some point, if we ever get time for a wedding) is finishing up med school this year and i'm finishing law school four months after that. she's going into surgery, and most likely that will entail me studying for another state's bar exam and moving to where i know no one and then spending my time staring and the wall and wondering why i didn't just get hooked up with a woman who works a "mere" 40-hour week.

how many hours of QUALITY time do you get with your wife? this is a HUGE anxiety of mine; it's really tearing me apart just to think about it.
 
I am the wife of a resident, I am also dealing with this issue.

We are trying to figure out how to spend more quality time with each other.

I am currently looking for a job and thus have tons of free time. Here's our schedule:

5 am to 6 pm--he's at work, I do whatever

6-9:30--eat, hang out a bit, study. I'd say we have about 45 minutes quality time per day

9:30-on--he goes to sleep.

Weekends: Friday night we usually hang out and watch a movie.
Sat. during the day we do something fun and usually go out Sat. night
Sunday all day he studies.

This is pretty much the schedule. Is this a lot of time or not a lot of time in others' opinions, who have sig o's in med school or residency. I'd say we have all day Sat. plus Sat. night and 45 minutes per day each weekday of quality time. What do others think of this amount? For me, it's too little.
 
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The time I'm able to spend with my bf is nothing compared to the time that you have together! I have about six hours total a WEEK with him max (not counting the time spent sleeping), and a majority of the time we're eating, I'm testing him, or his thoughts are elsewhere. To me, it's not enough time, but since I want him to do well and be happy, to support him, I try to be as understanding as possible. As you can see from my previous posts I'm having quite a hard time as well but am hopeful that things will turn out. You should read what others have so empathetically wrote to me in regards to scheduling issues and relaying your feelings to him to work things out, because it has definetely helped me!
 
amk25a said:
I'm curious how people define quality time? Tofurkey sees her husband from 6-9:30PM but only estimates about 45 minutes of quality time. I see my wife for basically that same amount of time and I consider it all quality. In fact, as long as we're in the house together, it's quality time (it's a tiny "starter" home :) ).

This is an interesting concept. When my now-husband and I were dating, we spent most of the time long-distance and were only actually "together" about 3 days out of every month. Now, even though he is busy studying, as long as he is "near" me (ie, we are at home sitting on the couch together, while he studies and I read), it is quality time to me. I've found I've had a much easier time with his stress response since I have him near so much. And, he has always made me know that I come first. Knowing that makes it easier for me to be so supportive.

Things were viscously hard when we were dating and apart. They have gotten SO MUCH EASIER since he has started med school. I agree with all of the posts above that say scheduling is key. We have tried to schedule a date night one night every week. And, Sundays are always a "no-school" day for us, which has been wonderful for us. We use that day to plan out the next week, see when he will have time, etc.
 
i will reveal more of my normally closely-guarded info: i live in michigan, near detroit, and she lives in durham, NC (Duke med). we met a little over a year ago at our mutual friends' wedding in Erie, PA (LECOM students), where i was the best man and she was the maid of honor (yes, yes, storybook story...). anyways, i moved to durham for a couple months this summer, and it was an accelerated course on how to have disagreements in a mature way that is not destructive, and we made a LOT of progress in our relationship and intimacy and trust levels. prior to that, we were still quite good at making time for each other and being good to each other, but she was on her second research year (she won some awards and grants that funded her second year of research) so she had plenty of time for that. she just got done doing a SICU rotation, and this past monday she started her surgical sub-I, which has already brought her to tears of fatigue/hunger/frustration once. she's no wussy--she's done 100+ hour / week rotations, and she knows that internship, residency, and her peds surg fellowship (assuming she goes that route) will not be a cakewalk. she has toyed with the idea of doing anesthesiology in order to end up with the kind of lifestyle she thinks she might want (i.e., actually having time to be a present figure in our future children's lives), and she deals with people from specialties and subspecialties who try to turn her to their side of the Force daily. i try to be the good partner and remain silent (in part because i'm known to be rather persuasive when i want to be) about MY wants for her future because i want her to choose what will make HER happy, not what will make ME happy, and then see whether, given that she will be happy, i can also be happy. i guess what really is tearing me up right now is that i truly don't know whether i will be happy with a wife who is a surgeon. i worry that i will end up like a single father, raising my kids and not having many peer relationships. if we stay in michigan, then i can continue my many long-term friendships and spend time with my parents, sisters, etc. if we move out of state, though, i will be wiping the social circle slate clean and replacing it with friends from the field of law, which is fine as PART of my circle, but one of my joys is that my friends are from such diverse backgrounds rather than being from the same career path. will i be staring at the wall, wondering why i didn't just cut the ties and seek out someone who didn't feel like, just to be right with herself, she had to work 200% or more the hours of normal people? it is killing me. i love her so much, but sometimes (only sometimes!) it's hard for me to understand why a person would feel like they MUST be a surgeon as opposed to any one of the 5 million other specialties that actually let you live your life. she constructed these goals prior to having a serious relationship. med students sacrifice from their days in undergrad until they are chairpeople of their department. they give up certain normal social interactions, and in most cases that includes a heavy dose of giving up relationships. i just don't know i if i can live the rest of my life with a person who will have 10 hours a week of waking time to spend with me focused on US rather than a book.

realize, too, that i'm 30, and she's 25. she can dick around for 5-8 years before increasing childbirth risks an incredible amount. if we wait 5-8 years to start having kids, though, that means i'll be 36-39 when they're born, and almost 60 when (if) they graduate from undergrad. that gives me more anxiety than anything else i can think of.

sleep time is quality time, but it's what i consider TYPE 2 quality time; TYPE 1 is time spent awake and focused on each other or on having fun together. TYPE 2 is time spent together but not focused on each other (sleeping or studying or at her parents' or at my parents'). i need good TYPE 1 or TYPE 2 is not worth a damn. up until now, and until she matches and starts her residency and i graduate, i am able to look at all of the time we DON'T spend together as a function of the physical distance between us and of both of us being really really busy finishing up with our educations. but once i get a "regular" job and she starts her residency, the game changes and i don't know if i'll be able to keep pretending that it's only temporary. it doesn't seem like it is--it seems like you've just trained yourself to be happy with almost no time together. (no offense intended!) i don't WANT to train myself to be like that, i want her to see us spending our lives together as trumping her desire to do ped surgery and instead choose something intended for people with souls and with hearts and with desire to spend time with the ones they love.

i've really been feeling sorry for myself on this thing the past week or so. hopefully it will pass. where in michigan are you guys, or are you no longer here?
 
delchrys said:
i will reveal more of my normally closely-guarded info: i live in michigan, near detroit, and she lives in durham, NC (Duke med).

A lot of Duke students do surgery there; of note, it's 7 years at Duke (2 years of research as PGY3-4). There's one CT fellow who is a PGY-10 - just married his wife last year (she did ortho, and a hand fellowship, and he is still a resident - well, fellow - housestaff, whatever!). Anywhere else, he would have been done in 7 years (5 + 2). One surg resident that I was on trauma with noted that, when he comes back from his research, I'll be an attending.
 
amk25a,
I agree with you, time spent sleeping should count as time spent together, and that fact alone should comfort me because it feels great being close to my bf even though we are not consciously interacting. However, I do agree with delchrys when he says that there are different types of "quality time".

For me, there is a lot of Type II quality time and almost no Type I as well, because when we actually have time to spend together (not just being in the same room), all he seems to think about is school. We go to dinner and sometimes even a movie, but I don't even feel like he's completely 100% there (his mind always wanders) so what kind of quality time is that (I guess its' type 1.5)? :)

delchrys, I can relate to you when you wonder why your gf has to choose this long and arduous path to become a ped surgeon; sometimes it makes you wonder if all this work and lack of presence is really worth it. I've had many thoughts like the ones you're having and sometimes I still do, but I try to tell myself that if I really love him, I will support him in any which way I can to let him be the best he can be. Medical school for any specialty is extremely grueling on the body and the mind, and if she truly wants to be a ped surgeon then she shouldn't go for anything else because then she'll just end up unhappy and unfulfilled.

It is up to you to decide whether or not you will be able to handle being with someone that can't always return what you give, someone who will always have long hard hours at work because of her specialty, and someone who may not be able to spend that much time with you or your future family, because that is the way a life with a surgeon is. It's easy to focus on all the hardships that you are facing or may come your way, but you must also remember why you fell in love with her in the first place. It's because she is someone you love with all your heart, someone that has great compassion by selflessly working so hard to enrich the health of others, someone who appreciates everything that you go through to make her life easier, someone who tries to squeeze out every ounce of time she has when she isn't studying to spend time with you, and someone who loves you as well. It may seem easier to "hook up" with someone else that has a 40 hour week job, but what's the point in having more time to spend with that person if you don't love them as much as you love your gf (future wife)? I'd rather spend six waking hours a week with my bf than spend every night with someone else that may have more time to spend with me.

We also have to keep in mind that even though they are striving to become surgeons (my bf wants to be ortho surgeon), it doesn't mean that they are ok with not spending time with us too. It tears my bf apart to see me in the same room with him when he's unable to spend time with me, so it's important to understand that they feel the same way we do about not being able to spend time with us.

I have trouble dealing with the "quality time" issue as well, but I try to tell myself that the fact that we don't get much time to spend together makes the time that we do have that much more special. As the other posts say, scheduling and constant communication of feelings is key. We must accept the fact that the life we lead with a med student isn't going to be a "normal life", and the hard times we share is not temporary, but at the same time we should realize that its as hard for them as it is for us, and in the end going through these hardships together will only make our relationships that much stronger.
 
wow, i work in troy, lol! email me if you ever want to grab a bite or a [email protected].

i think a lot of this is how different people look at what "being in a good relationship" means to them. to some, it means having a person who you see from time-to-time who you love who loves you back who makes some time for you. to others, it means having someone at your side most of your down time. generally, relationships between the former and latter don't work out so well. i have classically been the former, but in my current relationship i am more the latter. i'm certainly independent, and very very busy, but at the same time i accept the "very very business" of my life for NOW because i know it will taper down greatly once i pass the bar and begin working. while i'm independent, i also have a very strong need to be with my gf, and when given a choice between that and anything else, i will always choose to be near her/do something together. i realize i'm putting my spin on it here, but i can't help but feel like her desire to do surgery in her heart trumps her desire to have that kind of time with me. what kind of life is it to forever take a back seat to your partner's JOB? i mean, it's a job, for pete's sake, the thing we all do because we want to have enough money to enjoy our nonworking times; the thing we all try to pick carefully so that it also fulfills us. perhaps it's true that she will feel fulfilled by doing 2 hernia repairs a day on infants, but that is brainless work that any scutmonkey could do if they had focused training, and it is a sh*tty byproduct of an archaic system that leaves a 9-year residency/research/fellowship requirement in place to get there. i just have a hard time swallowing that she wants peds surgery because of it's "genuinely fulfilling" nature, and instead think it comes largely from the prestige and glory that surgeons seem to feel their profession gives them. (note: she is THE OPPOSITE of the "typical" arrogant surgeon who is into themselves like that; i just wonder how much of her choice comes from this stuff on a subconscious level.)

i guess it's like a person choosing to work as a stripper, and then saying "look, i know that me stripping is tearing you apart, and crippling our relationship, but it's fulfilling to me on some level" and then trying to deny that they are choosing their personal desire to strip over their desire to have a happy relationship--it is an inescapable conclusion that a person will always do what they most want to do--in this example the stripper is CHOOSING to strip, not being forced. she most wants to be a surgeon. if she most wanted to be a happy wife and mother who spent lots of time with her family AND work in a fulfilling and productive job, she could choose ANY other specialty and get that. so, my twisted brain tells me, she would rather have a certain career than a relationship that fulfills both of us.

to me, it really comes down to me--i need to decide whether i can be happy with the way things are going to be, or i should leave the relationship. surgery is the one specialty that NEVER relents. peds surgeons, specifically, work an average of 70 hours per week. that's for the folks who are done with their fellowship. so what i have to look forward to is having a wife who, until she RETIRES, will be around for fun times maybe at MOST 15-20 hours per week, and who will spend every off-work moment feeling guilty for the crap that is happening to every peds patient while she is off and there is perhaps no one there to fill her role, just as Superman would feel guilty if he took a day off and crime went on without being stopped. i know i worry to much about things that haven't happened yet, but i pray every day that she will decide to do anesthesiology or pretty much anything else. i won't ever pressure her to change her field at all--i'll either stay and smile or leave and not use it as a lever. it just seems like a whole hell of a lot to bear on top of the normal compromises that one makes in a "normal" relationship.
 
Apollyon said:
A lot of Duke students do surgery there; of note, it's 7 years at Duke (2 years of research as PGY3-4). There's one CT fellow who is a PGY-10 - just married his wife last year (she did ortho, and a hand fellowship, and he is still a resident - well, fellow - housestaff, whatever!). Anywhere else, he would have been done in 7 years (5 + 2). One surg resident that I was on trauma with noted that, when he comes back from his research, I'll be an attending.

i'm pretty sure duke requires their surg residents to do 2 years of research, but she's going to match somewhere in either PA, MI, or OH this march, and will be doing the research years either way (unless she learns that her two med school research years count as resident research years...she's been published a lot, actually, so who knows) since she will ultimately be competing for the tough-to-get-into peds surg fellowships that are out there.
 
lol, just a joke i find funny. one of my sisters married a canadian, and i like south park...i truly have nothing against the canadians, not even the french ones.

;)
 
delchrys said:
i'm pretty sure duke requires their surg residents to do 2 years of research, but she's going to match somewhere in either PA, MI, or OH this march, and will be doing the research years either way (unless she learns that her two med school research years count as resident research years...she's been published a lot, actually, so who knows) since she will ultimately be competing for the tough-to-get-into peds surg fellowships that are out there.

I'm telling you - the 2 years of research are required, with the only exceptions being a few times in recent years when the resident is an MD/PhD, AND, a spot opened up in the class that they would be in.

Duke only requires one med school research year (MSIII), and it doesn't count towards surgery, regardless of pubs. I don't think other places would be different.
 
Apollyon said:
I'm telling you - the 2 years of research are required, with the only exceptions being a few times in recent years when the resident is an MD/PhD, AND, a spot opened up in the class that they would be in.

Duke only requires one med school research year (MSIII), and it doesn't count towards surgery, regardless of pubs. I don't think other places would be different.

and i'm telling YOU (in a friendly, not confrontational way, lol) that my gf took an extra year of research during duke med school because she got the funding for it, and that some duke surgery residents suggested to her that those two years MIGHT be considered sufficient to skip the research years during residency because of the quality, etc. i am doubtful of this, as is she, especially because a spot needs to actually open up (in addition to the difficulty in getting research done at the level she did it counted as resident research). we'll see.
 
DoggieLover said:
Unfortunately, my bf and I don't live together....I live about an hour away (our schools are that far apart and my parents don't approve of us living together before marriage because they are very traditional) and drive down to see him and take care of him whenever he has time. I guess that makes things THAT much harder because I basically have to ask him what his schedule is, pack my things, bring my dog, and drive down there just to cook/clean/take care of him AND his dog without spending any quality time with him and then drive up through traffic after a couple of days just to repeat the cycle all over again.

The definete perks are the fact that I'd be able to sleep in the same bed next to him and get glances of him during his study breaks, but that also means that scheduling times with my friends is very hard because usually I'm gone on the weekends when they have time to hang out (they all have M-F 9-5 jobs) and if we do hang out it means that I'll have to drive even further to meet them. He doesn't come up to see me because he wants to stay near school so he can go study in lab, have study groups, and not waste the time he needs for studying to drive (which is understandable), so it's always me driving to see him. His place doesn't even have a TV (he thinks its a distraction) so imagine how bored I get when I'm over there, especially since his school is kind of in the middle of no where!!!

The reason why it's hard for me to feel secure is because one time when we argued he brought up the fact that maybe we need a break (he said that it might be better and less stressful for both of us). Later on he apologized and said to me that he didn't mean what he said (he was just angry and immature to say that) and he can't imagine his world without me. He talks about how our children are going to be like and our future all the time, but to me, I can't just dismiss what was said when we argued because I start thinking "then why am I doing all of this and investing so much"? I guess that was another source of my resentment too.

DoggieLover, I really hate to say this, but I think your boyfriend is taking advantage of you. The fact that he expects you to drive an hour each way just to clean, cook and take care of him without even getting to spend any quality time together isn't fair and isn't right. Plenty of med students make it through without anyone doing their cooking/cleaning/laundry for them--heck, my husband and I are BOTH in med school and we somehow manage to keep ourselves fed and clothed and our apartment relatively clean without someone else to do those things for us. Now, I think it's wonderful that you want to do those things for him to make his life easier--but the fact that you are expected to drive an hour each way just to do those things without getting to spend any real time with him, isn't right. He's treating you like a maid. Furthermore, you mention that last weekend you DIDN'T do those things and he got angry with you for making his life more difficult...He shouldn't be EXPECTING you to do those things. He should be grateful and appreciative of it when you do, but he shouldn't expect you to do it all the time. It sounds like you're doing almost all of his cleaning, cooking, etc. for him. It's fine and nice if you want to help him with those things, but you are not his maid. You shouldn't have to do all of it for him. Especially since you are not living together, he should (IMO) be doing MOST of that stuff for himself, and if you can do his laundry or make him dinner one night that's a bonus and he should appreciate what a nice thing you're doing. It would be one thing if you lived together and shared the same household...then it might make sense for you to be doing the bulk of the domestic chores, since it would be your household too and you're not as busy as he is at the moment. But you're not living together, you're living an hour away, and you have your own house/apartment to take care of too...you're not benefitting from any of the work you're doing cooking and cleaning in his place, as you would be if you lived together. What bothers me the most is that he apparently expects you to drive down an hour just to cook and clean and take care of him, without even spending any quality time together, and then gets mad at you when you don't do that! I'm sorry, the guy may be under stress, but this is not fair and it's no way to treat you. He expects you to be there on his schedule and to fill his needs without any recipricol consideration for yours. It sounds like he really thinks you are there to do the cleaning and the cooking, not to see him and spend time with him!

As you mention...you are not married, yet you are doing for him all the things that a wife does. You say you are "not even considering marriage" until after he is done with med school. Does that mean you are planning on getting married someday, but are putting off the wedding until after med school? Or does that mean you two don't know whether or not you're going to get married, and will make that decision after med school is over? It is one thing to be doing all of this stuff for him, getting little in return, if you have a firm commitment and know you are going to get married somewhere down the line. Then, making these sacrifices for each other makes sense. But it's entirely different to be making these sacrifices and doing all this stuff for him when you don't even know if you're going to get married. You're right that all of the stuff you're doing for him is quite an investment. And if you're going to make that investment, you should have some part in the eventual pay-off of all this hard work. I don't think you should be doing all this stuff for him unless you have a solid commitment. Otherwise, it's too much of a sacrifice. I don't blame you for being upset about what he said about taking a break, and for reconsidering how much you are doing for him in light of that. It sounds like he is not yet willing to make a firm commitment...and if that's the case, then it seems to me that what he's expecting of you is unfair. Now, we all get upset and say things we don't mean at times, so if you know you're planning on getting married someday and talk about it all the time, etc. I wouldn't put too much weight in one comment. But if you two don't have that understanding, I'd take it as an indicator of what his level of commitment actually is. Oh, and I don't buy the idea that he actually HAS to work quite this hard just because he's interested in ortho. My husband is seriously considering ortho, too, and he doesn't feel the need to work that hard. He works hard, sure, we both do. But we also have time for fun. Our school is pass/fail, which definitely helps...if your BF goes to a school with grades then I can see how he'd be feeling a lot more pressure. Still, you don't have to let med school and studying consume your entire life. Plenty of people manage to find balance between studying and having a life and still do very well. It's a choice you make, and I think it says something about your priorities in life. If he is putting you this far down on his list of priorities right now, I think you can expect that he will also be the type of surgeon who will work 80 hours a week and never be home. You have to decide whether or not that is something you can live with for the long-term. I'm willing to tolerate it for residency, but I would not be happy with my husband if he were still choosing to work 80 hours a week on a regular basis after we are done with residency and have children. (And I certainly don't plan to do it myself). I'm just saying, if this is the way your BF is now, I wouldn't necessarily expect it to change or get better later. On the other hand, it's early in the year. Maybe as he gets used to med school, he'll relax a bit, but if he doesn't relax and doesn't make time for you I'd take that as a sign of his priorities and think seriously about whether you can (and whether you want to) live like this for the rest of your life. I'm not saying he shouldn't work this hard or it's not a legitimate choice...but it's a lot harder on a spouse than having a doctor husband who only works 50 or 55 hours a week.

Okay, this is getting really, really long so I'm going to cut it off here. I'm not trying to bash your BF...really. I know how hard all of this stuff is and it's a HUGE adjustment, and school just started so he's still getting used to it. But I'd hate to see you get taken advantage of and feel like you have to do all of the giving and all of the adjusting just because you think that this is just how it is with a med student. It should be a two-way street, even though it's probably not 50-50 and that's okay. I think amka25a and delchrys have given you some excellent advice on accepting and adapting to your BF's needs and ways of doing things. I'm just presenting the other side of things, which is that you shouldn't be doing all the giving and all the flexing. It's okay for you to have needs too, and if your BF is as great of a guy as you think he is then after this inital period he'll realize that, and he'll begin to adjust and try to meet your needs too. It's alright for you to have limits to how much you can give and how flexible you can be. I hope it helps to hear this from a med student. You're not being selfish just because you have needs too. No relationship can or should revolve around the needs of just one person, even though at times it will not be 50-50. Good luck dealing with everything, and I hope you work it out.
 
Don't worry things will get better in the end, I'm sure of it. Just stay with him though the smoke, and it will get thick sometimes,but I ensure you in the end you two will look back and smile on how you two over took the biggest hill (med school) ever which will make your relationship supreme. :) But at the same time make sure he thanks you for the big and little things you have doing for him :)
 
DoggieLover said:
Unfortunately, my bf and I don't live together....I live about an hour away (our schools are that far apart and my parents don't approve of us living together before marriage because they are very traditional)

Not to offend anyone, but IMHO, even tho your parents are traditional, please, please PLEASE don't let them try to control your lovelife (i.e. you and your bf living together before marriage) My father's mother was very controlling about what her son should/shouldn't do, how to dress/not dress, and how to raise a family, etc. and it ended up with my parents divorcing after 23 years of marriage. :scared:

My advice is to go ahead and discuss living together with your bf, because IMHO, parents have no business trying to be the boss of their children's lovelives, as it only causes things to get worse and not better. :thumbdown:

Besides, if I spent all or even half of my time worrying about whether or not my parents would approve of things I do with my lovelife, I would never get anything done and would be doomed to remain single forever.
 
Pretending to be married and actually being married are totally different.
 
Thank you Jenny_21 for all of the empathy for my situation, I really do appreciate your insight. A couple of weeks ago, I had talked everything out with my bf, let him know exactly how I was feeling and we both set to make the situation better for both of us. He realized how much stress our relationship was going through and apologized for being so consumed with med school and overlooking my feelings. He also promised to be more considerate of what I was going through, and to make quality time for us whenever he could. Since then our relationship has been wonderful-I feel like I'm not obligated to do his chores for him, he takes time to spend quality time (where I have his full attention) with me, he really lets me know that he appreciates what I do whenever I do things for him, and he even set away study time to take me out to a really romantic dinner! I'm so glad that there was so many people to give such great advice in this forum, and appreciate all the time and effort everyone has taken to help me. I know the road is still going to be stressful, but now that he understands and I understand what we are facing and what we might face in the future, it makes it that much easier to work things out. Living together is still not an option, just because I have a great roommate situation where I live and I don't want to give that up, and we're probably not going to get married until after he finishes med school (we ARE committed though), but things are looking up (except for the horrid weather in northern Cali these days) for both of us, especially since he started studying for his OMM techniques by practicing on me! :D
 
Hey doggielover! I just want say that I totally understand how you are feeling. I met my bf while he was a senior during his undergrad studies. I actually did the long-distance thing for a year before I moved up here. We don't live togethe either, because of our parents. So, I understand. He is now in the midst of his 3rd year and I felt the you do when he was a first and second year. It was so tough. But, through it all, it made is grow SOO much. I had to be understanding, and patient. Sometimes, I would get so frustrated because all my friends had their bf's out with them and they had such a normal relationship. Then all my friends started getting married, which got frustrating and now they are having children. It is tough to watch my friends experience all this normalcy and I am not doing that. But, I also love my bf to death and wouldn't think of trading it at all. I have to understand that even when he graduates it won't be the same. It will just be the start of many new challenges.
I guess my point is, if you really love him and think he's the one, then you will have to be so patient. But, also stand up and tell him when you are sad, or lonely. You have to start being honest now, because if it builds up to the point when you can't stand it, you will regret it!
If you ever want to talk, feel free to email me and we can stay in touch and be each other's support system! You will need that!
 
DoggieLover said:
Thank you Jenny_21 for all of the empathy for my situation, I really do appreciate your insight. A couple of weeks ago, I had talked everything out with my bf, let him know exactly how I was feeling and we both set to make the situation better for both of us. He realized how much stress our relationship was going through and apologized for being so consumed with med school and overlooking my feelings. He also promised to be more considerate of what I was going through, and to make quality time for us whenever he could. Since then our relationship has been wonderful-I feel like I'm not obligated to do his chores for him, he takes time to spend quality time (where I have his full attention) with me, he really lets me know that he appreciates what I do whenever I do things for him, and he even set away study time to take me out to a really romantic dinner! I'm so glad that there was so many people to give such great advice in this forum, and appreciate all the time and effort everyone has taken to help me. I know the road is still going to be stressful, but now that he understands and I understand what we are facing and what we might face in the future, it makes it that much easier to work things out. Living together is still not an option, just because I have a great roommate situation where I live and I don't want to give that up, and we're probably not going to get married until after he finishes med school (we ARE committed though), but things are looking up (except for the horrid weather in northern Cali these days) for both of us, especially since he started studying for his OMM techniques by practicing on me! :D

DoggieLover, you are deluding yourself. You must be what you are born to be: a DoggieLover. And you can fully be that with another doggieLover. Forget that career-crazed, enervated guy. Join me. I will give you what you've been missing the whole time. I will show you what it means to be true DoggiestyleLover.
 
On a serious note, DoggieLover, have you visited his school and checked out the female students there and how friendly and cuddley he is with some of them? If not, you should.
 
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