How to not get into med school with a 40 MCAT

[Affiche]

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Good to know. Anything in there that would require physical documents and/or being in the US?
Also, I'm talking about finaid once accepted, not FAP...the FAP ship has sailed (that sounds wrong but whatever)

Nope. My "witness" for the affidavit was 400 miles away and we did everything through scan/email. I can PM you though about the process I went through.

 

[Theseus]

Should do your best to throw your hat into the DO arena STAT. You may be late on the MD cycle, but with your scores you could definitely score a seat at a DO school without an MCAT retake, and wouldn't need to file nearly as many applications to be accepted. Just a thought.

He doesn't have the money. Needs to pay the application cost + school costs.

 

[Mad Jack]

He doesn't have the money. Needs to pay the application cost + school costs.

If he doesn't have the money to apply DO, how did he expect to afford interviews? Travel, lodging, food, etc, and the background checks and deposits schools require? I mean, I'm honestly asking, this is not a rhetorical question. I like Spinach, and if I were working right now I'd front him the money myself, sucks I'm in a spot where I'm unable to help.

 

[Theseus]

If he doesn't have the money to apply DO, how did he expect to afford interviews? Travel, lodging, food, etc, and the background checks and deposits schools require?

He mentioned he applied to 3 MD schools, one of which is his state school. I remember several weeks ago he mentioned he will just drive to the interviews. MD deposits are more manageable than DO ones. Especially since it costs $1K+.

 

[Affiche]

If he doesn't have the money to apply DO, how did he expect to afford interviews? Travel, lodging, food, etc, and the background checks and deposits schools require? I mean, I'm honestly asking, this is not a rhetorical question. I like Spinach, and if I were working right now I'd front him the money myself, sucks I'm in a spot where I'm unable to help.

DO deposits are crazy compared to MD! Literally about tenfold what I'm required to put down for my school. There's not a snowball's chance in hell I could have afforded a DO deposit.

 

[bumblebee611]

Should do your best to throw your hat into the DO arena STAT. You may be late on the MD cycle, but with your scores you could definitely score a seat at a DO school without an MCAT retake, and wouldn't need to file nearly as many applications to be accepted. Just a thought.

That seems short sighted--to avoid an MCAT retake he should study OMM for two years, take COMLEX, and be ruled out of many residency slots no matter how well he performs in medical school? He'd be better off to wait a year or two, save some money, retake MCAT and reapply. He's obviously capable of excelling on the MCAT and can do so again.

 

[Mad Jack]

That seems short sighted--to avoid an MCAT retake he should study OMM for two years, take COMLEX, and be ruled out of many residency slots no matter how well he performs in medical school? He'd be better off to wait a year or two, save some money, retake MCAT and reapply. He's obviously capable of excelling on the MCAT and can do so again.

How old are you? I'm much closer to OP's age. Trust me, two or three years matter when you've got compounding debt, tuition is rising, etc. Two years in practice is enough cash to pay off your entire medical school debt in many fields. As to "studying OMM for two years," it's not really that much of a time commitment lol. You've got 4-5 hours a week for 2 years, it's practically nothing.

Come to me when you're pushing 30 and tell me that a couple years, plus a year for a cycle, don't matter. They do. A lot. Both financially and in regard to what it does to your personal life.

 

[bumblebee611]

How old are you? I'm much closer to OP's age. Trust me, two or three years matter when you've got compounding debt, tuition is rising, etc. Two years in practice is enough cash to pay off your entire medical school debt in many fields. As to "studying OMM for two years," it's not really that much of a time commitment lol. You've got 4-5 hours a week for 2 years, it's practically nothing.

Come to me when you're pushing 30 and tell me that a couple years, plus a year for a cycle, don't matter. They do. A lot. Both financially and in regard to what it does to your personal life.

LOL I am 43 years old and will be 44 when I matriculate--I got in on October 15. And ten years ago, family obligations derailed me in this process and I had to retake a 43S MCAT. No, I'm not trolling, I am absolutely serious. I assumed that Spinach was quite young because he seems pretty reliant on his mother, his dad leaving disrupted their financial situation, etc. but you are of course right that the calculus is different when you are older. I went into this cycle knowing I would have no opportunity to try again and so I did apply MD and DO.

 

[Mad Jack]

LOL I am 43 years old and will be 44 when I matriculate--I got in on October 15. And ten years ago, family obligations derailed me in this process and I had to retake a 43S MCAT. No, I'm not trolling, I am absolutely serious. I assumed that Spinach was quite young because he seems pretty reliant on his mother, his dad leaving disrupted their financial situation, etc. but you are of course right that the calculus is different when you are older. I went into this cycle knowing I would have no opportunity to try again and so I did apply MD and DO.

Fair enough. It really depends on your goals. If you know that you don't want to do surgery and many of the highly competitive fields, DO is a perfectly viable option. I looked at losing a year of my life to possibly get an MD versus going to DO school immediately, with the possibilities at the end being IM, psych, anesthesia, or FM, and figured I had a good shot at any of them as a DO so why lose a year. It's a very individual decision that you have to take a lot of things into account for.

 

[bumblebee611]

Fair enough. It really depends on your goals. If you know that you don't want to do surgery and many of the highly competitive fields, DO is a perfectly viable option. I looked at losing a year of my life to possibly get an MD versus going to DO school immediately, with the possibilities at the end being IM, psych, anesthesia, or FM, and figured I had a good shot at any of them as a DO so why lose a year. It's a very individual decision that you have to take a lot of things into account for.

I agree completely--but I would still say that if Spinach is 30 or younger he should take extra time rather than applying DO. First, I hear all the time as a premed that I can't know what I want to do until I'm truly exposed to it. So I would say someone in Spinach's position doesn't want to rule stuff out even he thinks he's okay with FM (or some other DO-friendly field) today. Second, I think the amount of OMM is a big deal. Even conservatively estimating at 4 hours a week for two years, if you are, like me, a parent, that is an afternoon a week you could have spent with your children...or three more dinners per week you could have eaten with them...or however you want to add it up. Third, I have seen your posts before on how DO can be a good backup plan and how it was easier for you to get in DO than MD--but for me it didn't play out quite that way. So again, it probably depends on a host of individual factors (that we may or may not be aware of) whether Spinach would be better served to spend an extra $300 on adding a few MD schools or DO schools.

 

[SCooFS]

I get tired of hearing how few schools people applied to because they didn't have money. I don't really feel sorry for 99% of them. If you truly can't afford it you would have qualified for fee waivers. My parents paid 0, nothing for undergrad. Zero for medical school apps. I started undergrad with no scholarships and had to earn them (did qualify for some Pell grants) . I worked full time and went to school full time for almost four years. I even bought a house for my wife and kid. I kept my credit on check and took out a big loan at the beginning of this year. I have already taken on a lot of debt by who cares! I'm gonna be a doctor and that's what had to be done! Quit blaming the fact that you can't get in to medschool on the fact that you don't have money. Most of us don't. Figure out out

 

[SCooFS]

And another thing. I'm equally pissed about having to compete with dumb kids who can take months off of regular life to take the MCAT. I could have scored a hell of a lot better if I didn't have to work but that is my life and what I chose. I'm sure there are applicants who have had to work even longer than me and died better on the MCAT. Stop blaming circumstance, the system, minorities, your dad, etc. Because you can't get in. We are all playing the same stupid game and are well aware of the difficulties.

 

[efle]

And another thing. I'm equally pissed about having to compete with dumb kids who can take months off of regular life to take the MCAT. I could have scored a hell of a lot better if I didn't have to work but that is my life and what I chose. I'm sure there are applicants who have had to work even longer than me and died better on the MCAT. Stop blaming circumstance, the system, minorities, your dad, etc. Because you can't get in. We are all playing the same stupid game and are well aware of the difficulties.

Since when is it typical to take months off for the MCAT? I thought most people either prep for it during a full time spring semester or else prep in a summer while also working / taking classes

 

[GrapesofRath]

Since when is it typical to take months off for the MCAT? I thought most people either prep for it during a full time spring semester or else prep in a summer while also working / taking classes

Ehhh there many many people I know who did something similar to this. It's a pretty common thing around where I'm from to dedicate a summer to the MCAT with just some minor things on the side like part time volunteering or 15 hours of research or something like that. The thing about the MCAT is those who completely ace it can do so without much prep so I can see why it would come as a surprise to some that people actually dedicate months to the test. The ones who study the hardest for it are often the ones who need to and need to exert all that effort just to get a MD matriculant median 30-33 score from my experience.

 

[Mad Jack]

And another thing. I'm equally pissed about having to compete with dumb kids who can take months off of regular life to take the MCAT. I could have scored a hell of a lot better if I didn't have to work but that is my life and what I chose. I'm sure there are applicants who have had to work even longer than me and died better on the MCAT. Stop blaming circumstance, the system, minorities, your dad, etc. Because you can't get in. We are all playing the same stupid game and are well aware of the difficulties.

I get annoyed with people that had to do the same things I had to do and blame their poor performance on them when I did just fine 😉 It's possible to do full-time school, full-time work, and study for the MCAT if you devote your life to the process. Work with what you've got. Nothing is impossible if you put in the hard work. Life isn't fair, so make things work as best you can, and don't get all annoyed with those that happen to have had it easier or better than you, because it can always be worse, and you can always succeed if you have the aptitude and put in enough work.

 

[Silence in ER]

And another thing. I'm equally pissed about having to compete with dumb kids who can take months off of regular life to take the MCAT. I could have scored a hell of a lot better if I didn't have to work but that is my life and what I chose. I'm sure there are applicants who have had to work even longer than me and died better on the MCAT. Stop blaming circumstance, the system, minorities, your dad, etc. Because you can't get in. We are all playing the same stupid game and are well aware of the difficulties.

I mean it was your choice to have kids, a wife and a house, right? You didn't have to. No doubt your stress would be less without them.

I think everyone has their own disadvantages and advantages in life. However, I don't think it precludes us from having sympathy for those who struggle. No doubt, your success is not just a function of who you are, but the people you've met and who raised you. You say you have no sympathy for Spinach b/c you worked for scholarships all through school. I could find you people I know who'd have no sympathy for you b/c you might have grown up in a house free from abuse, in a neighborhood that was safe and with parents who even expected you to go to college.

 

[SCooFS]

I get annoyed with people that had to do the same things I had to do and blame their poor performance on them when I did just fine 😉 It's possible to do full-time school, full-time work, and study for the MCAT if you devote your life to the process. Work with what you've got. Nothing is impossible if you put in the hard work. Life isn't fair, so make things work as best you can, and don't get all annoyed with those that happen to have had it easier or better than you, because it can always be worse, and you can always succeed if you have the aptitude and put in enough work.

I agree with everything you just said. I think we are thinking the same here

 

[Affiche]

I think everyone has their own disadvantages and advantages in life. However, I don't think it precludes us from having sympathy for those who struggle.

What precludes me from having sympathy for others is that they have a setup that I only dreamed of having but they complain non-stop about how much harder everything is for them.

I'll just leave this here:
"Always remember that there is someone out there that is more than happy with less than what you have."

 

[SCooFS]

I mean it was your choice to have kids, a wife and a house, right? You didn't have to. No doubt your stress would be less without them.

I think everyone has their own disadvantages and advantages in life. However, I don't think it precludes us from having sympathy for those who struggle. No doubt, your success is not just a function of who you are, but the people you've met and who raised you. You say you have no sympathy for Spinach b/c you worked for scholarships all through school. I could find you people I know who'd have no sympathy for you b/c you might have grown up in a house free from abuse, in a neighborhood that was safe and with parents who even expected you to go to college.

I have no sympathy for whining. My only point is that everyone has challenges and to act like the reason you can't get into medschool is somehow systematic is silly. People need to look within and say "why can't I get into medschool" not "why is this unfair and x thing is holding me back"

 

[Silence in ER]

What precludes me from having sympathy for others is when they have a setup that I only dreamed of having but they complain non-stop about how much harder everything is for them.

I'll just leave this here:
"Always remember that there is someone out there that is more than happy with less than what you have."

But you too probably have a setup others have only ever dreamed about too, right?

then , according to your quote, Does that mean no one should ever complain?
I have family in another country who would kill to get to America, so should no Americans ever complain about anything?

Should you complain and not try to improve your situation? : No

but within reason yeah, I have some sympathy for Spinach, I guess.

 

[Affiche]

Edit: Don't quote this because it will be deleted later.

But you too probably have a setup others have only ever dreamed about too, right?

Right now? Yes. I've worked my ass off to get into medical school and I recognize that I'm in an awesome position right now.
When I was in high school and a pre-med? Doubtful.

 

[Silence in ER]

I have no sympathy for whining. My only point is that everyone has challenges and to act like the reason you can't get into medschool is somehow systematic is silly. People need to look within and say "why can't I get into medschool" not "why is this unfair and x thing is holding me back"

I want to address this point:

Once again, I don't think complaining and doing nothing makes any sense, but I want to point out that medical school admissions processes are too some extent systematically created to push out people who are poorer or don't come from the requisite backgrounds.

I was much poorer as a kid, but my family is pretty well off now and I can speak for the fact that most kids are not exceptional. Just average.
most kids are shaped by the environment they live in and their aspirations are also shaped by that environment. When I was a kid, growing up in a poor neighborhood, it never occurred to me that I needed to do well on, for example, "the gifted and talented test" to have access to better classrooms that were not interrupted by our resident angry student throwing chairs ( metal heavy chairs) off tables. I didn't even know what was going on when they tested me and just kind of went with it. And if I hadn't been able to go to Catholic school and have my talents nurtured or my parent's home situation ( I had depressed parents back then) had not improved there is no way I would have ever ever gone to an Ivy League school. I just would never have had my talents nurtured, I would not have had any idea what to do either. To the extent, our failure as an American system is that it is hard for preternaturally average kids to succeed. We make them have to swim against the tide when everyone else just gets to float by. and I would wager a bet that 90% of people don't swim against the tide. So yeah. I do think the applications system is systematically biased against kids from poorer backgrounds.

How would we fix that? Well, we could give a bigger boost to kids from lower SES backgrounds ( we already do give them a boost though). We could guarantee free first 5 applications for everyone and levy fees on those who applied to more schools. I'd need to think of more, but those might be a start.

 

[Silence in ER]

Not quoting out of respect b/c you want to delete it.

Don't you think that most others would have given up in that situation?

 

[Affiche]

I want to address this point:

Once again, I don't think complaining and doing nothing makes any sense, but I want to point out that medical school admissions processes are too some extent systematically created to push out people who are poorer or don't come from the requisite backgrounds.

I was much poorer as a kid, but my family is pretty well off now and I can speak for the fact that most kids are not exceptional. Just average.
most kids are shaped by the environment they live in and their aspirations are also shaped by that environment. When I was a kid, growing up in a poor neighborhood, it never occurred to me that I needed to do well on, for example, "the gifted and talented test" to have access to better classrooms that were not interrupted by our resident angry student throwing chairs ( metal heavy chairs) off tables. I didn't even know what was going on when they tested me and just kind of went with it. And if I hadn't been able to go to Catholic school and have my talents nurtured or my parent's home situation ( I had depressed parents back then) had not improved there is no way I would have ever ever gone to an Ivy League school. I just would never have had my talents nurtured, I would not have had any idea what to do either. To the extent, our failure as an American system is that it is hard for preternaturally average kids to succeed. We make them have to swim against the tide when everyone else just gets to float by. and I would wager a bet that 90% of people don't swim against the tide. So yeah. I do think the applications system is systematically biased against kids from poorer backgrounds.

How would we fix that? Well, we could give a bigger boost to kids from lower SES backgrounds ( we already do give them a boost though). We could guarantee free first 5 applications for everyone and levy fees on those who applied to more schools. I'd need to think of more, but those might be a start.

You're conflating two issues here. First, you're arguing that average kids have a tough time getting into medical school because they swim against the tide, but that 90% of people don't swim against the tide. How is that average then? Second, you're arguing that low SES kids are selected against. I don't think that's entirely true. The true bottom of the SES have assistance, and I know because I was on it. There are obviously issues within our education system that make it exceedingly difficult for low SES kids to succeed, but that starts in early childhood and is by no means the responsibility of medical schools to rectify. As a medical school, their responsibility to poor applicants is to recognize disadvantaged status, honor fee waivers, accommodate ITA requests to save money, and offer need-based financial aid, all of which they do.

 

[mehc012]

You're conflating two issues here. First, you're arguing that average kids have a tough time getting into medical school because they swim against the tide, but that 90% of people don't swim against the tide. How is that average then? Second, you're arguing that low SES kids are selected against. I don't think that's entirely true. The true bottom of the SES have assistance, and I know because I was on it. There are obviously issues within our education system that make it exceedingly difficult for low SES kids to succeed, but that starts in early childhood and is by no means the responsibility of medical schools to rectify. As a medical school, their responsibility to poor applicants is to recognize disadvantaged status, honor fee waivers, accommodate ITA requests to save money, and offer need-based financial aid, all of which they do.

I thought he was talking about attitude/expectations and how much of a difference those can have on the shape/course of someone's life.

l honestly agree: what is expected of you, what your family values, and eventually what you see yourself as capable of is probably the biggest difference between low-income groups and the middle class. It's easy to stop working once you reach the state you expect to live in. For my dad, that was "surviving with enough to buy cigarettes." For my mom, it was a terminal degree. They both got exactly what they aimed for. SES differences go beyond paychecks; there is a HUGE cultural component that too often gets overlooked. It's why I didn't mark myself as SES disadvantaged, even though we were quite destitute for much of my childhood. Despite that, I grew up in a household where education was highly valued, with all the benefits that come with that (homework help, plenty of reading, school districts factored into apartment searches) and I was expected not only to go to college, but to go to a great one and then any graduate program I needed for whatever career I decided upon. I would be the same person if I had gone with my father in the divorce, but I probably wouldn't be applying to med school, and not due to funds.

Edit: ah, saw the ending...I don't agree that it is med schools' fault, of course, but if they want more SES diversity, as they claim to, there are loads of things they could do to actually move closer to that goal than they are now. Like making the disadvantaged checkbox less of a possible landmine, adjusting the fee structure for apps, travel assistance for FAP applicants, etc.

 

[7O4]

Why are are DO deposits so high?

 

[LizzyM]

Why are are DO deposits so high?

"Are you serious about coming here? Prove it by putting down a non-refundable deposit. Don't use me as a safety in case you don't get into an MD school. The $1K non-refundable deposit will make saying bye-bye to you a bit less painful when you dump me for an MD school." signed the DO school

 

[Affiche]

I thought he was talking about attitude/expectations and how much of a difference those can have on the shape/course of someone's life.

l honestly agree: what is expected of you, what your family values, and eventually what you see yourself as capable of is probably the biggest difference between low-income groups and the middle class. It's easy to stop working once you reach the state you expect to live in. For my dad, that was "surviving with enough to buy cigarettes." For my mom, it was a terminal degree. They both got exactly what they aimed for. SES differences go beyond paychecks; there is a HUGE cultural component that too often gets overlooked. It's why I didn't mark myself as SES disadvantaged, even though we were quite destitute for much of my childhood. Despite that, I grew up in a household where education was highly valued, with all the benefits that come with that (homework help, plenty of reading, school districts factored into apartment searches) and I was expected not only to go to college, but to go to a great one and then any graduate program I needed for whatever career I decided upon. I would be the same person if I had gone with my father in the divorce, but I probably wouldn't be applying to med school, and not due to funds.

Edit: ah, saw the ending...I don't agree that it is med schools' fault, of course, but if they want more SES diversity, as they claim to, there are loads of things they could do to actually move closer to that goal than they are now. Like making the disadvantaged checkbox less of a possible landmine, adjusting the fee structure for apps, travel assistance for FAP applicants, etc.

I'm not disagreeing that our society's education system fails the lower end of the spectrum, I just disagree that medical schools should carry that blame. Medical schools offer a terminal degree (last stop on the road to getting educated) and the issue is that many poor applicants were selected against way earlier in the process, starting from childhood.

The disadvantaged box is a possible landmine because kids who have no concept of what being "disadvantaged" means try to claim it for a leg up. That isn't going to change and medical schools shouldn't change their outlook on non-disadvantaged applicants checking that box. I checked the box and it was discussed in every single one of my interviews in a positive light, but I've actually been pretty disadvantaged. Because of that, I think medical schools have been very receptive to me as a disadvantaged applicant and my ability to add diversity to the class.

 

[Silence in ER]

First, you're arguing that average kids have a tough time getting into medical school because they swim against the tide, but that 90% of people don't swim against the tide.

No, that's not what I said. I hope I didn't make a mistake writing it, I didn't really re-read it.


I said average kids have a tough time get into medical school because they "don't" swim against the tide, just like 90% of people. There is a reason why most of the students in medical school are children of doctors and come from higher SES status, and that's why they don't swim against the tide.

>

There are obviously issues within our education system that make it exceedingly difficult for low SES kids to succeed, but that starts in early childhood and is by no means the responsibility of medical schools to rectify.

And those are the systematic issues I was talking about.

Edit: ah, saw the ending...I don't agree that it is med schools' fault, of course, but if they want more SES diversity, as they claim to, there are loads of things they could do to actually move closer to that goal than they are now. Like making the disadvantaged checkbox less of a possible landmine, adjusting the fee structure for apps, travel assistance for FAP applicants, etc.

I am wary of assigning blame to anyone. After all, medical schools did not, in themselves create the lowered social mobility in the USA. What I can say is that if medical schools were really serious about, I don't know , really improving not only the medical workforce but medicine as a whole, they'd probably do a lot more to help poorer people b/c I don't think rich entitled doctors are good for well, anyone.

 

[Affiche]

I am wary of assigning blame to anyone. After all, medical schools did not, in themselves create the lowered social mobility in the USA. What I can say is that if medical schools were really serious about, I don't know , really improving not only the medical workforce but medicine as a whole, they'd probably do a lot more to help poorer people b/c I don't think rich entitled doctors are good for well, anyone.

What do you think they should do then?

Tbh I was confused as to what your last post was actually trying to say, so I may have misunderstood your point.

 

[mehc012]

I'm not disagreeing that our society's education system fails the lower end of the spectrum, I just disagree that medical schools should carry that blame. Medical schools offer a terminal degree (last stop on the road to getting educated) and the issue is that many poor applicants were selected against way earlier in the process, starting from childhood.

The disadvantaged box is a possible landmine because kids who have no concept of what being "disadvantaged" means try to claim it for a leg up. That isn't going to change and medical schools shouldn't change their outlook on non-disadvantaged applicants checking that box. I checked the box and it was discussed in every single one of my interviews in a positive light, but I've actually been pretty disadvantaged. Because of that, I think medical schools have been very receptive to me as a disadvantaged applicant and my ability to add diversity to the class.

I never said they should carry the blame. I said that those are the things they need to overcome if they truly desire to expand SES diversity as many claim to.

The disadvantaged box is a landmine beyond simply being misused. LizzyM had a sad, too-real story about it being used properly, yet the contents still being used against the applicant. I'm glad it worked out well for you, but I would never use it myself, nor recommend others to use it at this point. I simply don't trust that adcoms are open-minded enough not to be judgemental. Maybe someday.

 

[Silence in ER]

What do you think they should do then?

Tbh I was confused as to what your last post was actually trying to say, so I may have misunderstood your point.

Well, I kind of have a few sketchy ideas. To be honest, i've spent more time thinking about it in terms of college, b/c that's what I am more concerned about.


However, a few things are:

1) applying for financial aid is so hard and difficult. My parents never qualified so I never had to care, but I saw the reams of paper. I don't think I would have done it/ Mayhaps we could simplify the code

2) Counting parents who are not in their kids life for financial aid. I mean, my parents have been pretty awesome and involved. But Spinach's dad per example has run off. it doesn't make sense he should still have to put his dad on his medical school apps. Some parents are abusive, and are not living with the kid. There most be some way to ascertain if a parent is actually supporting his kid


3) More pipeline programs that don't end after one summer, but actually continue throughout four years with mentorship, support and advice.

4) Having free apps for 5 or so schools, more student host programs. I mean apps are so expensive!

5) having a quota etc-20% of our spots must be filled by people from lower SES classes.

I'm sure there are more and better formulated ways medical schools can help, but these are just a few.

__________________

 

[mehc012]

Well, I kind of have a few sketchy ideas. To be honest, i've spent more time thinking about it in terms of college, b/c that's what I am more concerned about.


However, a few things are:

1) applying for financial aid is so hard and difficult. My parents never qualified so I never had to care, but I saw the reams of paper. I don't think I would have done it/ Mayhaps we could simplify the code

2) Counting parents who are not in their kids life for financial aid. I mean, my parents have been pretty awesome and involved. But Spinach's dad per example has run off. it doesn't make sense he should still have to put his dad on his medical school apps. Some parents are abusive, and are not living with the kid. There most be some way to ascertain if a parent is actually supporting his kid


3) More pipeline programs that don't end after one summer, but actually continue throughout four years with mentorship, support and advice.

4) Having free apps for 5 or so schools, more student host programs. I mean apps are so expensive!

5) having a quota etc-20% of our spots must be filled by people from lower SES classes.

I'm sure there are more and better formulated ways medical schools can help, but these are just a few.

__________________

Quotas aren't cool, man.
Aka they're generally not legal.

I dig your overall idea, though. Again, these things aren't the med schools' fault, but since they profess to support SES diversity...they're things that should be looked into, that's all.

 

[Fastrada]

What do you think they should do then?

Tbh I was confused as to what your last post was actually trying to say, so I may have misunderstood your point.

Be transparent about why tuition is rising at such a fast rate since debt is a huge deterrent for students wanting to go to med school. Be fiscally responsible, so students arent paying to pad the pockets of school administrators. Ease up on expecting so much from ECs (most of which are bs and take away from valuable work time, so lower-income students can't do as much). Provide financial aid to middle class students (my dad got a raise, so I'm looking at $516K after a 6 year residency and I don't know what to do). Have outreach programs to help lower SES students get medical exposure

 

[Silence in ER]

Quotas aren't cool, man.
Aka they're generally not legal.

Eh, I think colleges have a quote on quote "quota" for minorities- No AA debate needed, I am a URM.

I mean it's kind of weird that many of the top colleges have "12%" URM's all the time or whatever.

I don't see it as exclusionary quotes, more like shaping a distinct class. Obviously the hard number doesn't have to be 20, but the general idea is "let's accept more than 10% of our class from lower income backgrounds".I.e enough lower SES people to not be the "token poor kid who made good"


Edit: Also, I would point out that we also need to help those lower SES people once they get into medical school and support them so they can get through.

 

[ZedsDed]

Ya'll are just hatin. I'd be at HMS right now if it weren't for my parents' divorce and those damn URMs taking every seat.

@Affiche seriously though, you and I have had remarkably similar experiences. How did you control the overwhelming urge to slap all of your myopic, self-entitled peers? Snarky remarks helped me:

"Bruh, my parents are selling the Porsche. This is ****ing bull****"

"... that sounds rough man... I don't know how you even get up in the morning."

 

[Silence in ER]

Be transparent about why tuition is rising at such a fast rate since debt is a huge deterrent for students wanting to go to med school. Be fiscally responsible, so students arent paying to pad the pockets of school administrators. Ease up on expecting so much from ECs (most of which are bs and take away from valuable work time, so lower-income students can't do as much)

All the claps for this.👍


I suspect Texas medical schools are doing much better than the rest of the East Coast when it comes to recruit poorer applicants to medical schools simply because the cost doesn't scare people so much. It seems funny to me, but I feel like I'm in a really unique position b/c I can see both sides of the coin. When I was a little kid, growing up, 1 dollar was a good amount of money, 25,000? was an amount of money i could nor comprehend. To someone who didn't want to ask her parents for pokemon card cause it was considered too expensive, just the thought of that tuition would be overwhelming.

 

[Silence in ER]

Ya'll are just hatin. I'd be at HMS right now if it weren't for my parents' divorce and those damn URMs taking every seat.

I think there's a difference between complaing about real difficulties you face and entitlement.

Complaint A: Wow, these medical schools are so expensive, I worry my parents won't be able to pay for my siblings college and my medical school


Entitlement: I deserve a spot in HYS but all those URM's, low SES applicants stole my spot.

 

[ZedsDed]

I think there's a difference between complaing about real difficulties you face and entitlement.

Complaint A: Wow, these medical schools are so expensive, I worry my parents won't be able to pay for my siblings college and my medical school


Entitlement: I deserve a spot in HYS but all those URM's, low SES applicants stole my spot.

In my experience, those who complain the loudest often have the least to complain about. In other words, "real difficulties" are a relatively rare occurrence for your average tween.

People who lack "real" drama often create their own, hence your typical histrionic millennial.

 

[Silence in ER]

In my experience, those who complain the loudest often have the least to complain about. In other words, "real difficulties" are a relatively rare occurrence for your average tween. People who lack "real" drama often create their own, hence your typical entitled millennial

Entirely possible. Some people are just annoying. That's not the situation I was talking about here though, but I sympathize.

 

[Fastrada]

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/746086_4
Unfortunately, one group that did not benefit from this expansion was students of lower socioeconomic status (SES). In 1971, 27% of students came from families in the lowest two quintiles (lowest 40%) of household incomes nationally.[6] By 1987, this important segment of medical school enrollees had dropped to 15%, and, by 2004, it was only 10%.[34] Similarly, in 1974, 66% of students came from the top two quintiles (top 40%) of household incomes, but these percentages increased to 70% in 1987 and to 75% by 2004.[7,34]

 

[GrapesofRath]

Eh, I think colleges have a quote on quote "quota" for minorities- No AA debate needed, I am a URM.

I mean it's kind of weird that many of the top colleges have "12%" URM's all the time or whatever.

I don't see it as exclusionary quotes, more like shaping a distinct class. Obviously the hard number doesn't have to be 20, but the general idea is "let's accept more than 10% of our class from lower income backgrounds".I.e enough lower SES people to not be the "token poor kid who made good"

With quotas(or whatever the more politically correct term is or whatever an ADCOM would prefer to call them) one way to look at it from is from the perspective of what's in it for the med school to admit more of a certain kind of person? What gain is there for them to do so? For URMs its a rather easy sell; its rather easy to sell black doctors can provide a different type of care to black patients that non blacks can't. It's easy to sell the same for other URMs that we need their presence in medicine because they are lacking and their perspective can provide something we don't have. Everybody loves the idea of diversity. Race is a very sensitive issue and the episodes of racism are still rather prevalent in this country. It's easy to promote the idea that adding more URMs in medicine "promotes diversity" and that this diversity is clearly to the better of medicine because those URMs can help certain patients that don't get enough help in ways nobody else can. Considering how much racism has happened in this country over the past century, it is easy to sell the idea that "we need to provide more, different and effective care for those who are from populations that have been subject to so much racism for so long". Opposing that kind of stance can be difficult and unlikely.

Now lets shift the discussion to lower SES status. What gain do medical schools have to admit X% of lower SES status individuals who aren't URMs? To promote the idea that those in lower SES status can provide a different perspective in medicine that others can't? Sure, I would buy that. But what population of patients are you specifically targeting when you say that lower SES status doctors could provide a different level of care we don't already have? All lower SES status individuals regardless of race? All lower SES status individuals? All patients in general? To me, I can see how it is a little bit less clear than simply with URMs selling the idea that "a black doctor can help medicine in treating black patients in ways we can't have from other types of physicians". Also what do you think is an easier method for med schools to sell the idea of promoting diversity for; by taking more racial URMs or by taking more lower SES med school applicants of non URM races? Ideally the answer is both. But if you have to pick one, which would it be? I think a number of people if forced to answer would answer URMs in this situation. A main idea with lower SES applicants you can sell is they provide a different perspective in medicine that others can't to certain types of patients. I personally completely buy that and think there is a lot of value to it.

But do we necessarily think a doctor from a lower SES background can connect with a lower SES patient of different race as well as maybe a black patient and a black doctor? I don't know the answer to that. But I can certainly see an argument as to why somebody would argue that the black doctor and black patient have a apparent and clear cut connection and can on a consistent basis provide a perspective to that patient that they can't get otherwise. There is a certain trigger that causes us to actively increase the number of URMs in medicine which is racism of the past century. Many know about it, it's one of the first things educated people think about when considering URMs and their life and background etc. Diversity through race is a rather common selling point and something so many can buy into easily. I'm not sure we necessarily have that trigger to promote the population of more lower SES income applicants into medicine. Hence, I think that can play a role into answering your question about why one may have an unofficial quota and one may not.

Again, I'm not saying this is how med schools think or why affirmative action exists. I actually happen to be in the minority and don't really support how AA is used in med school admission and all it entails and leads to. I do think SES status and your background should be accounted for more than it currently is amongst other things. But I posted this kind of a way to get people thinking as to why certain quotas exist and what you would want to think about if you want med schools to have a lower SES quota and why they already don't have one. These are the types of questions that I at least have thought about when wondering why there is so much movement to promote more URMs in medicine but that such doesn't hold the same case for promoting diversity in income/SES/background. I don't really agree with a fair amount of it, but these are at least some of the thoughts I've come up with.

 

[efle]

I don't get the meta complaints about people who complain about first world problems. Some people with objectively nice lives struggle to find reasons each day not to kill themselves. If someone is complaining about not having enough extra money to go out with friends for third designer handbag vs not enough money to take a friend to a movie as a birthday celebration, you can call the former out of touch or ridiculous or w/e but its a moot point to me, because I have no grounds to judge someone for how upset they are over anything unless they're harming others in the process (eg saying it in front of the poor kid and making them feel worse).

 

[ZedsDed]

I don't get the meta complaints about people who complain about first world problems. Some people with objectively nice lives struggle to find reasons each day not to kill themselves. If someone is complaining about not having enough extra money to go out with friends for third designer handbag vs not enough money to take a friend to a movie as a birthday celebration, you can call the former out of touch or ridiculous or w/e but its a moot point to me, because I have no grounds to judge someone for how upset they are over anything unless they're harming others in the process (eg saying it in front of the poor kid and making them feel worse).

I can't justify it intellectually, it's just annoying. I had to worry about CPS taking my younger siblings away from my family (parents were gone and grand-parents were sick and unable to work) all through freshman year, and I never asked for anyone's sympathy. Yet somehow Tool McDouchebag over there thinks the whole world needs to stop and listen to his woes?! The **** outta here man...

 

[Silence in ER]

Really interesting notes. However, I think lower SES people will connect better with lower SES patients. Moreover, letting people know that "anyone" can make it to medicine is an intangible that I think is really great here. More than that, accepting more lower SES applicants will mean accepting more diverse applicants- ( the average medical student has parents from the suburbs and comes from a great applicant. The underclass is predominantly not white, and the white people who are lower income tend to be more from Appalachia and so on. Quotas for lower SES applicants also might make AA more palatable and save us a lot of stupid arguing.

I am actually one of the only (hehe) URM's that hates AA. But I also hate ( at the college level): legacy applications, seats reserved for people that play idiotic sports ( see polo and squash ( two sports I never knew existed pre- my ivy league school), development applicants, seats that go to famous people, seats that go to the sons and daughters of university professors. At the medical school level: Legacy applications- CAN you believe that is still a thing? Insane.. Postbac programs: overwhelmingly help those who can afford a postbacc program. which is not a lot of people.

I think most people dislike AA, but are not willing to do anything to end AA: you know- work to end racism in our country/socioeconomic segregation in the USA?


So despite the fact that I despise AA; I feel my hands are tied.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Really interesting notes. However, I think lower SES people will connect better with lower SES patients. Moreover, letting people know that "anyone" can make it to medicine is an intangible that I think is really great here. More than that, accepting more lower SES applicants will mean accepting more diverse applicants- ( the average medical student has parents from the suburbs and comes from a great applicant. The underclass is predominantly not white, and the white people who are lower income tend to be more from Appalachia and so on. Quotas for lower SES applicants also might make AA more palatable and save us a lot of stupid arguing.

I am actually one of the only (hehe) URM's that hates AA. But I also hate ( at the college level): legacy applications, seats reserved for people that play idiotic sports ( see polo and squash ( two sports I never knew existed pre- my ivy league school), development applicants, seats that go to famous people, seats that go to the sons and daughters of university professors. At the medical school level: Legacy applications- CAN you believe that is still a thing? Insane.. Postbac programs: overwhelmingly help those who can afford a postbacc program. which is not a lot of people.

I think most people dislike AA, but are not willing to do anything to end AA: you know- work to end racism in our country/socioeconomic segregation in the USA?


So despite the fact that I despise AA; I feel my hands are tied.

1) I think in theory the first thing I bolded is great and I agree with it. But the question you have to ask is with a black doctor and black patient how they can connect is apparent right away. The big thing there is a trust on the patients side toward the doctor. For a lower SES doctor and lower SES patient, how is the patient to know the doctor is lower SES? And more importantly does the doctor being lower SES matter to that patient? It's something so simple but it can easily get lost in that how does the patient know the doctor is lower SES and how can we predict how that will impact the patient? The other thing also is that URMs are far more likely than average to serve in primary care and serve many URMs. Now, part of that can be misleading, alot of URMs who get in with lower stats probably going to exactly have board scores and grades to pursue some fields even if they wanted to. But nonetheless, there is still a trend with URM doctors pursuing primary care and pursuing avenues of treating URM patients. Does the same hold true for lower SES doctors targeting field and lifestyles that will serve lower SES patients? I honestly have no idea but the answer could easily be no.

2) I think amongst people like us, people involved in admission the opposite is actually true; most people are in favor of AA and few aren't. I'm one who doesn't really like what AA has become in med school admission. I've been lucky enough over the years due to where I live and being extremely lucky to knowing the right people to have gotten to know a number of ADCOMs involved in the med school admission near my area and have talked to them extensively over the years. There are a couple I have talked to who don't support AA and what it has become in med school admission. But these are more in the minority from all I've understood and been told from them.

 

[7O4]

"Are you serious about coming here? Prove it by putting down a non-refundable deposit. Don't use me as a safety in case you don't get into an MD school. The $1K non-refundable deposit will make saying bye-bye to you a bit less painful when you dump me for an MD school." signed the DO school

Doesn't that severely drain (financially) those who are applying DO only?

 

[mehc012]

Eh, I think colleges have a quote on quote "quota" for minorities- No AA debate needed, I am a URM.

I mean it's kind of weird that many of the top colleges have "12%" URM's all the time or whatever.

I don't see it as exclusionary quotes, more like shaping a distinct class. Obviously the hard number doesn't have to be 20, but the general idea is "let's accept more than 10% of our class from lower income backgrounds".I.e enough lower SES people to not be the "token poor kid who made good"


Edit: Also, I would point out that we also need to help those lower SES people once they get into medical school and support them so they can get through.

I was just pointing out that technically, quotas aren't allowed. Also, not relevant but it'll bug me...it's "quote unquote", the verbal equivalent of making quote signs with your fingers for a word that you mean ironically/sarcastically (or just using quotation marks in written formats.)
The issue with quotas is that in a zero-sum game, any quota is exclusionary to some group. Theoretically, the idea is that each individual is considered separately, with low SES status or whatever providing a 'boost' for the individual, but that they wouldn't be trying to hit a certain percentage of the overall population. Now, I agree with you that it almost certainly works more like a quota system than anyone would like to admit. You just can't say it, which is all I was trying to get at before.

 

[Silence in ER]

1) I think in theory the first thing I bolded is great and I agree with it. But the question you have to ask is with a black doctor and black patient how they can connect is apparent right away. The big thing there is a trust on the patients side toward the doctor. For a lower SES doctor and lower SES patient, how is the patient to know the doctor is lower SES? And more importantly does the doctor being lower SES matter to that patient? It's something so simple but it can easily get lost in that how does the patient know the doctor is lower SES and how can we predict how that will impact the patient? The other thing also is that URMs are far more likely than average to serve in primary care and serve many URMs. Now, part of that can be misleading, alot of URMs who get in with lower stats probably going to exactly have board scores and grades to pursue some fields even if they wanted to. But nonetheless, there is still a trend with URM doctors pursuing primary care and pursuing avenues of treating URM patients. Does the same hold true for lower SES doctors targeting field and lifestyles that will serve lower SES patients? I honestly have no idea but the answer could easily be no.

2) I think amongst people like us, people involved in admission the opposite is actually true; most people are in favor of AA and few aren't. I'm one who doesn't really like what AA has become in med school admission. I've been lucky enough over the years due to where I live and being extremely lucky to knowing the right people to have gotten to know a number of ADCOMs involved in the med school admission near my area and have talked to them extensively over the years. There are a couple I have talked to who don't support AA and what it has become in med school admission. But these are more in the minority from all I've understood and been told from them.

1. I guess I can see what you're saying, but also I think lower SES students can be part of the pipeline to bring more lower SES students to medicine, more than that, I wouldn't be surprised that lower SES students would be more likely to serve in lower SES communities. I think it's significant.

2. Yeah, it's a shame. My views are unpopular even amongst my fellow black buddoes. But I think AA is just a bandaid, and a way not to make any real change. The average black applicant is not getting into medicine b/c they've been badly prepared and they can't handle medical school. The answer to that is not to make medical school easier but prepare black applicants better.

 

[Affiche]

1) I think in theory the first thing I bolded is great and I agree with it. But the question you have to ask is with a black doctor and black patient how they can connect is apparent right away. The big thing there is a trust on the patients side toward the doctor. For a lower SES doctor and lower SES patient, how is the patient to know the doctor is lower SES? And more importantly does the doctor being lower SES matter to that patient? It's something so simple but it can easily get lost in that how does the patient know the doctor is lower SES and how can we predict how that will impact the patient?

Having physicians from low SES backgrounds is incredibly important but not because they connect better with patients. I think it's important because these physicians are more likely to work in disadvantaged communities which are largely underserved.