How To Pick a Program Based on the Grad School

[Future MD/PhD]

Forgive me if this post is very noob-ish, but I feel like I need some clarity on this subject before it is too late.

There are a lot of threads on how to pick a mentor/lab for your PhD once you've already enrolled in a program, and also a decent amount of posts that address how heavily one should consider research opportunities when choosing a school, but I would like more clarity on the latter. From what I have gathered, you shouldn't choose a school because of one mentor, but instead choose a school that is ubiquitously strong in your department of interest. You should also gauge whether or not you could get along with potential mentors, what type of labs they run (big/small, do the students like it, frequent publications, etc), and if they are a big name in the field (which will serve you well post-graduation). Most importantly, you should choose a school that has at least 5 people with whom you could work with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from these criteria, I assume that all applicants should personally speak with and do research on at least 3-5 people who they are interested in at each school that they could potentially attend in order to identify schools that are weak in this regard.

Although many students say that your interests are bound to change by the time you start your PhD, I'm not sure how that is supposed to help an applicant like me at this stage. The field of research that I am currently interested in is somewhat small and specific (neural prosthetics for communication or memory rehabilitation), and I understand that if I chose a school solely for that, then changed my mind, I'd be screwed. On the other hand, if I chose a school that was strong in one of my lesser/broader interests (e.g. epilepsy, cognition, memory, etc) but had no one specifically doing prosthetics, I wonder if I would regret it. The last option would be to choose a school that's doing a lot of movement prosthetics, which is a related field and more common to find, but less interesting (to me).

TLDR: I'm interested in a niche field and I'm wondering how to gauge which school is best for me research wise, considering that I probably won't have a ton of professors to choose from in this area at any given institution anyway.

Feel free to redirect me to other informative threads on this subject. Any advice on how to move forward is really appreciated.

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[mk536]

It comes down to your experience in the field and how sure you are about what you want to do. If you choose a niche school, then you don't have the luxury of another couple of years to decide on your research focus. But maybe you don't need that. I also can't predict either if medical school itself will change how you feel about your research. I myself am going to be attending a school next year that has world class research in my field but not so much so in other disciplines. My perspective is that at some point in your life you have to start specializing, and in a niche field you oftentimes have to do that at the point where you are choosing where to apply to schools. If you have a lot of doubts at this point, though, that would be a sign that you should apply more broadly or that you should get more research experience before applying.

 

[Future MD/PhD]

Thanks @mk536 . Personally, I don't think I have any doubts about what I want to do. I'm simply trying to listen to the advice of others who have warned that research interests tend to change after applying to programs. In terms of the research applicants should do on professors before choosing a school, do you think that it's unnecessary to speak with 3-5 PIs at each school that you're considering, just to gauge the number of potential mentors you could realistically work with?

 

[HamiltonPineapples]

Thanks @mk536 In terms of the research applicants should do on professors before choosing a school, do you think that it's unnecessary to speak with 3-5 PIs at each school that you're considering, just to gauge the number of potential mentors you could realistically work with?

Generally I would say its best to apply broadly, but only to schools you think you would be willing to go to (even if it means deferring to a broader research field than the niche one you have identified). If you get interview invites from all schools that may be a time to consider cutting some of them that are less interesting to you. For my school list, which was 8 schools and probably narrower than most people on this forum (certainly should have applied to more, but oh well I got an acceptance), I chose schools for my primary app based on programs that had some sort of research in my field of interest. I went to their MDPHD website, looked at what departments they supported research in and did a cursory overview of what research the faculty members were doing.

Once you get acceptances, I believe most, if not all, schools provide a chance for you to speak with faculty members of your choice at second looks. Certainly the PD should be willing to facilitate interactions with faculty members you're interested in speaking to and doing research with before you are forced to choose a school (whether that is at the second look or by email/phone). This is how you will be able to gauge how many potential mentors you will have at each school. Be careful of narrowing your list too much too early in the process (its a long road and a lot of uncertainty)

 

[mk536]

Thanks @mk536 . Personally, I don't think I have any doubts about what I want to do. I'm simply trying to listen to the advice of others who have warned that research interests tend to change after applying to programs. In terms of the research applicants should do on professors before choosing a school, do you think that it's unnecessary to speak with 3-5 PIs at each school that you're considering, just to gauge the number of potential mentors you could realistically work with?

I had in mind about 5+ faculty at each school I applied to, but I didn't contact any until post-interview/acceptance. I had pretty strong knowledge of the top researchers in my field from publications and conferences (it's a small field!), so I frankly didn't do that much research on programs/faculty. It seems excessive to contact that many folks before even designating schools.

I think the good news about the niche field/niche program thing is that if you're a good fit, it may ease your application a bit. I'm not particularly competitive stats-wise, and the PD of the program I'll be going to basically told me that my acceptance came down to the fact that I was an unusually strong candidate for their particular research strengths.

 

[Future MD/PhD]

Thanks for your replies! I think I should clarify my situation a bit. I've already applied to schools and have gone through the interviewing phase. I'm currently holding an acceptance at Northwestern, but I'm also waitlisted at Columbia and NYU. Furthermore, I haven't heard from UChicago yet (I think they're silently waitlisting me). I've heard that UChicago responds positively to repeated letters of interest/intent, so I want to go ahead and engage with potential mentors there to see if it's worth aggressively begging them to offer me an acceptance (all jokes aside though, I don't want to miss out on a great institution). On the other hand, in the blessed event that I get off Columbia's waitlist in late April or May, I think it would be better if I had already done my homework in this regard so that I could make my decision quickly and confidently...

From what I know thus far, Northwestern has a strong BME program and the interview that I had with the lab I would want to join was amazing (they work on neural prosthetics, and they used to have a post-doc working on speech prosthetics, but she left to work for Facebook ). The other labs that I saw there were cool too, and I probably have a lot more options there than I realize now that I think about it, but not necessarily in the niche field that I'm going for.
Columbia, on the other hand, has a strong Comp Neuro program, and at least two big names that I know of in my field of work who would be great to do research with. I didn't get to interview with them though, so I just want to check and make sure that they're great mentors as well as great researchers.
UChicago was fun, I liked the school, and although there's practically no one there working on neural prosthetics for speech or memory, I really liked the professors I talked to during my interview. There's one guy in particular who's research may be applicable to neural prosthetics, but he is by no means a specialist on the subject.

It seems like the obvious choice is to hope for Columbia, but if Columbia doesn't pan out, I wonder if UChicago would be a better choice than Northwestern (grass is greener syndrome?). On the other hand, I wonder if I should give NYU more attention, since they actually have someone working on speech prosthetics, and another legend working in a related field that aligns with my long-term goals.

 

[HamiltonPineapples]

Ahh I see now.

In this case I see no problem reaching out to places you've been waitlisted to try and chat with a faculty member. I am not sure if you should go through the PD or directly to the department. In either case you probably want to express continued interest and excitement about the program if/when you reach out.

 

[Future MD/PhD]

Ahh I see now.

In this case I see no problem reaching out to places you've been waitlisted to try and chat with a faculty member. I am not sure if you should go through the PD or directly to the department. In either case you probably want to express continued interest and excitement about the program if/when you reach out.

Thanks @HamiltonPineapples . I felt like I may have been jumping the gun, but waiting to hear back from schools has been torturous, so checking my bases could be helpful to do in the meantime.

 

[mk536]

Thanks for your replies! I think I should clarify my situation a bit. I've already applied to schools and have gone through the interviewing phase. I'm currently holding an acceptance at Northwestern, but I'm also waitlisted at Columbia and NYU. Furthermore, I haven't heard from UChicago yet (I think they're silently waitlisting me). I've heard that UChicago responds positively to repeated letters of interest/intent, so I want to go ahead and engage with potential mentors there to see if it's worth aggressively begging them to offer me an acceptance (all jokes aside though, I don't want to miss out on a great institution). On the other hand, in the blessed event that I get off Columbia's waitlist in late April or May, I think it would be better if I had already done my homework in this regard so that I could make my decision quickly and confidently...

From what I know thus far, Northwestern has a strong BME program and the interview that I had with the lab I would want to join was amazing (they work on neural prosthetics, and they used to have a post-doc working on speech prosthetics, but she left to work for Facebook ). The other labs that I saw there were cool too, and I probably have a lot more options there than I realize now that I think about it, but not necessarily in the niche field that I'm going for.
Columbia, on the other hand, has a strong Comp Neuro program, and at least two big names that I know of in my field of work who would be great to do research with. I didn't get to interview with them though, so I just want to check and make sure that they're great mentors as well as great researchers.
UChicago was fun, I liked the school, and although there's practically no one there working on neural prosthetics for speech or memory, I really liked the professors I talked to during my interview. There's one guy in particular who's research may be applicable to neural prosthetics, but he is by no means a specialist on the subject.

It seems like the obvious choice is to hope for Columbia, but if Columbia doesn't pan out, I wonder if UChicago would be a better choice than Northwestern (grass is greener syndrome?). On the other hand, I wonder if I should give NYU more attention, since they actually have someone working on speech prosthetics, and another legend working in a related field that aligns with my long-term goals.

Given that you've said you want to work in this field, I would frankly strongly pursue Columbia and further investigate NYU faculty to see if it's worth strongly pursuing them as well. From what you've said, I personally would hesitate to go to UChicago over Northwestern. Remember, UChicago doesn't have engineering at all (I guess they have their new molecular engineering institute...), which does have an effect on the quality of students, post docs and faculty in a field like prosthetics, and isolates you a bit as regards your research.

 

[Reckoner]

Choose the school with the strongest overall neuroscience research, or if you are really certain you couldn't live with anything else the strongest computational neuro. Choosing based on a particular mentor is a dangerous game. What if they don't have space in their lab? What if they're a jerk and four years in their lab would be miserable? What if they take 7 years to graduate students? These things happen all the time, and you usually don't find out about them until you're already in the program.

Postdoc/fellowship is the time to specialize, learn techniques that you can use in your own lab, etc. For grad school the goal is to find a supportive mentor who will help you be productive, even if they don't work on the thing you love most.

 

[s_med]

I feel compelled to reply since I'm going to be working in a very similar field (sensorimotor neural prosthetics/BCIs for spinal cord injuries/stroke). Caveat of practicality: I was a competitive applicant and was offered positions at multiple programs that are strong in this area; YMMV. Ultimately, my flow diagram looked like this:

Rule out MD-only programs (no $$ + unclear career path = nope) [n = 1]
-> Rule out programs with <3 neuroscience PIs with whom I interviewed and would have felt comfortable working with [n = 1]
-> Rule out programs without strong interests/funding into prosthetics research [n = 1]
-> Left with top-tier fully-funded programs with good institutional support, >3 neuro PIs, active prosthetics work [n = 2]
-> Select the program with two neural prosthetics PIs with whom I interviewed & felt comfortable (reasonable time to dissertation, track record of successful MSTP students, low risk of going insane, etc) [n = 1]

I recognize that you may not have the opportunity to select from so many programs, so I apologize in advance for any lack of applicability. But I outlined this to highlight that if the decision-making process had instead been "pick the program with the guy I absolutely-positively must work with because he is awesome" then I would have gone with the MD-only program I ruled out in the first step. If I'd wanted to "pick the program that's closest to home/in a city where I know people/where the lifestyle is closest to what I am used to" then I would have gone with one of the programs I ruled out in the latter steps. I'm very happy where I am now, in a city that I never thought I'd live in, but with excellent research prospects on the horizon and safety nets in case something falls through.

I'd guess that your process would look similar for the first 2-3 steps (i.e., stick to MSTPs with >3 PIs). If you have more than one option at that point, then it's up to you to determine which factor carries the most weight in your decision. All the best.

 

[Future MD/PhD]

Thanks so much @s_med . Two questions: when you ruled out programs with <3 neuroscience PIs that you would work with, did you consider PIs who weren't necessarily working on sensorimotor neural prosthetics/spinal cord BCIs, but were working in a somewhat related field? Also, how can you gauge a program's interest in or funding for a given research topic? Is it listed explicitly somewhere, or can you tell by the amount of press/attention it gets on the institution's website? I certainly don't have too many options at this stage, but I want to be clear about my intentions in the event that I do benefit from waitlist movement, and the advice that everyone has been offering has been very helpful in clarifying where I should go vs where I would like to go.

 

[s_med]

did you consider PIs who weren't necessarily working on sensorimotor neural prosthetics/spinal cord BCIs, but were working in a somewhat related field?

Yes, absolutely. I considered folks using various techniques (two-photon Ca imaging, microelectrode arrays/old-school electrophys, functional imaging, etc) on various organisms (birds, mice, monkeys, humans) with varying degrees of engineering/computational involvement (all the way from startup-esque programming dungeons to pipette emporiums). My level of comfort obviously varied with these factors, but I still interviewed with all of these different kinds of labs to gauge the viability of working with them.

how can you gauge a program's interest in or funding for a given research topic?

There is no cut and dry answer, but the best metric is probably looking for funded projects/PIs with good track records. In my case, if I could not find a single well-established lab operating primarily in the intersection between neuroscience and BME, I ruled out that program. The 2 programs that remained each had a posse of PIs loosely working together on neuroengineering projects. I chose the one with two prosthetics PIs, although each had at least a dozen people working in computational neuroscience.

in the event that I do benefit from waitlist movement

This seems to me like a non-issue right now. Focus on ruling out programs where you have fewer prospective routes to success, however you define that. By May 1st you should have selected a program that you would be happy attending regardless of what happens on the WL. WL movement can only help you but it is not pertinent to whatever decisions need to be made in the next month.

 

[Future MD/PhD]

This seems to me like a non-issue right now. Focus on ruling out programs where you have fewer prospective routes to success, however you define that. By May 1st you should have selected a program that you would be happy attending regardless of what happens on the WL. WL movement can only help you but it is not pertinent to whatever decisions need to be made in the next month.

I have no decisions to make .... I'm only holding an acceptance from Northwestern right now. Still, the replies from this thread have helped me reconsider which schools I should wait out for. For example, if I got off NYU's waitlist a week ago and had to choose between Northwestern and NYU, I'm not sure that I would have made the right choice. Now, I think it's a no brainer. I know what to look for in a research department and how to compare schools with each other to make a logically better choice. When I was completing my secondaries a couple of months ago, I had a more narrow view of labs and was focused on who was doing exactly what I wanted to do. Now, I'm looking at entire departments differently and considering whose research can serve my long-term career goals. I know that I might be jumping the gun by researching schools that I'm only waitlisted at, but it helps me know how to act if I do get an acceptance (or if I should simply pull my application from an institution in the meantime).

 

[s_med]

I'm only holding an acceptance from Northwestern right now.

Sorry, I missed this bit. Obviously it's a good idea to do your homework on programs where you're waitlisted -- no discouragement there. Just be mentally ready to accept the Northwestern offer. (It's a great program by the way.)

Now, I'm looking at entire departments differently and considering whose research can serve my long-term career goals.

You're on the right track.