How to "read" a school's match list?

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TLDR Version?
-students from prestigious schools tend to apply to more prestigious programs so they will invariably fill more seats at such programs.
-a program with a fancy name may be lacking in clinical training, but incoming residents may not be aware of this flaw due to inadequate advising.
-many of the top residency programs are not affiliated with highly ranked med schools.
-some programs offer prestige and quality clinical training.
-the quality of a program can change from one year to the next due to a variety of factors.

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Hahah that's amazing, how do you miss that deadline ??? I'd set at least three google calendar alerts
 
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Hahah that's amazing, how do you miss that deadline ??? I'd set at least three google calendar alerts
I think there will be some very happy CT surgery SOAPers this year.
 
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What about the step 1 data I just put up, showing being even 1 quartile up puts you around the median for the traditionally competitive specialties? Is Hopkins not an example path program you'd expect to be top quartile peeps?
This statement is a glaring example of why pre-meds "analyzing" match lists is not useful. Hopkins, as an institution, is well-regarded. Does that mean that their training programs are the best, or even in the top tier, across the board? No.
Surely it is still a minority among ~26-27 year old medical students
Not a safe assumption.
I'll readily agree with the second point, I wouldn't ever use a match list to pick my med school.
Good call.
I mean "best" as in reputation. You can apply the same logic to something like colleges or med schools - what is best for me might be cheap, local and with optional lecture while best for someone else might be lots of research, small class size, PBL etc. The fact that people will each have unique preferences doesn't stop me from being able to rattle off a handful of "best" names that would be agreed upon/also listed for that prompt by most.
I had the impression before this thread that similar is true of some residencies for a given specialty, like if you asked a bunch of IM peeps who was "best" handful you'd get some variation of Hopkins/MGH/B&W/UCSF etc not "well you see, what makes something best is different for each person depending especially on location..."
There are "tiers" of residencies based on reputation in each specialty, no one will argue that point. As has been previously stated, these tiers are not consistent across specialties (i.e. you're not going to find too many ivy league's in the upper echelons of emergency medicine). The disagreement is using the prevalence of "top tier" programs on a match list to gauge a school's ability to put you into the program you want when you graduate.
 
Hahah that's amazing, how do you miss that deadline ??? I'd set at least three google calendar alerts

I think there will be some very happy CT surgery SOAPers this year.

Talk about a gold mine for a few SOAPers. I can't even imagine how much sputtering and hand wringing went on when they realized what had happened.
 
While different specialties may have different "top residencies" that may not be associated with top med schools, why can't we compare match lists based on something more simple like Internal Medicine matches? Most students choose these specialties so you have a large sample size, and is it really that difficult to find out which Internal Medicine residencies provide the best training? Many of the same residencies are represented frequently in the Top 20. All you would have to do is identify the 20 or so that are highly represented, organize them based on the qualities listed previously, and then compare schools based on how many get their grads in the best training programs.
 
While different specialties may have different "top residencies" that may not be associated with top med schools, why can't we compare match lists based on something more simple like Internal Medicine matches? Most students choose these specialties so you have a large sample size, and is it really that difficult to find out which Internal Medicine residencies provide the best training? Many of the same residencies are represented frequently in the Top 20. All you would have to do is identify the 20 or so that are highly represented, organize them based on the qualities listed previously, and then compare schools based on how many get their grads in the best training programs.
I'll save you the time: top 20 med schools tend to send more of their grads to the older, highly respected IM programs (MGH, UCSF, etc.)
 
Okay, here we go...

A school's match list on face value should be the single most important thing when figuring out which medical school to go to. While we can quibble about medical education and where/when you 'learn' medicine, the end result of medical school is the ability to enter the NRMP and match at a program. For the vast majority of students, ie. those that are pursuing a career in clinical medicine of some flavor, this becomes the single most important aspect of medical school: attaining a residency position. Where a student ultimately matches is the sum of many components which I will try to explain as objectively and broadly as I can. A school's match list therefore is the sum of that sum. In my personal opinion because of the sheer number of variables that goes into each match, their non-linearity and the many personal factors that go into it, trying to analyze the sum of the sum is foolhardy.

#1 How successful an individual match is determined by how far down on your rank list you had to go. At the end of the day, it is the ONLY measure of success, it is the sum of all the hard to figure out variables. This is not publicly available information. It is also far from a perfect variable since it is of course confounded by the fact that you can only rank a program that you interview at. It isn't fair to talk about pre-interview rank lists because people learn a ton about programs as they interview and their rankings will obviously shift as the interview trail goes on.

#2 You can only match somewhere if, a) You apply to their program, b) The program invites you for an interview, c) You decide to rank the program and d) The program decides to rank you. Unlike medical school admissions, where there are 141 MD-granting medical schools currently accredited by the LCME, there are 4,200+ residency programs administered by the ACGME. The largest specialty (Family Medicine) has 514 programs. While in smaller specialties, there are some applicants that apply to all the programs in the discipline, the reality is that the majority will not even come close. The 'top' students or the best students, regardless of what school they go to do not apply to programs based on a well publicized list provided by US News. The application process is far more personal and focused. It is easy to appreciate parts b, c and d as a pre-med, but understanding part (a) is non-trivial.

#3 How people decide on their rank list is personal. Everyone has their own priorities and what you need to understand is that those priorities are incredibly varied. It is something that is incredibly difficult to appreciate as a traditional applicant to medical school. I certainly did not understand it until I was well into residency. A big factor is AGE. You aren't talking about people in their early/mid 20s. You are talking about people in their mid-late 20s. The number who are married is significantly higher. The number with kids is significantly higher. The number who were, "academics all the way!" is much lower. The jadedness is much higher. You get my point. Simply put, it is a fundamentally different population that values things on average differently. There are plenty that haven't changed, but my point is that the population is much more heterogeneous. There are many more "real world" factors that come into play. For example, there is a thread by @cbrons in allo that highlights the importance of healthcare benefits to him when looking for a residency. Never in a million years would I have ever guessed that that was a variable. But, it is for him. One can debate how important it should be (you can see the thread), but at the end of the day, it matters to some applicants. You can find dozens, if not hundreds of these reasons. One of the biggest of which...

#4 Geography. Do not underestimate the power of geography. Whatever you imagine it's influence on medical school admissions, multiply this by 100. Whether it be from family issues (see #3), ease of away rotations, school connections, faculty mentor cross appointments, geography influences how people apply to and rank residencies. Which brings me back to #1. Just because someone from the Midwest didn't apply to or rank programs at big name medical schools, doesn't mean that their match didn't go perfectly. This affects a very large number of graduating medical students. A couple years back, I knew a student at a non-ranked school in the Midwest applying to pediatrics, she was the only one that applied to CHOP of the 20+ that went into pediatrics, she ended up matching there. Very strong academically, likely the strongest of those going into pediatrics, but certainly didn't have something special that made her an obvious, gotta have. She was the ONLY one who applied.

#5 Program quality. As a pre-med, you can not possibly assess a program's quality from the outside. Applicants as MS4s can barely do it. Name of an associated medical school means very little. Do you know which Harvard/Yale associated programs were on ACGME probation in the last 5 years? I know of 2. I guarantee that there are more. I haven't seen a correlation with probation and name of medical school and doubt there is one. Matching into one of those programs, never mind the programs not on probation that should be (because the residents are coached on how to answer the ACGME survey, see thread in surgery sub-forum) or not on probation but because they aren't bad enough yet, is bad news. Having several world class faculty doesn't fix a dysfunctional training program. Typically, people only get wind of this on the trail and it simply drops the program to the bottom of their rank list, which brings me back to #1, the only thing that really matters.

#6 Program desirability. There is a correlation between strong residencies and big name medical schools. Some of this is funding, some of it is faculty recruitment. But, it is far from perfect. I interviewed at all 3 Harvard programs, JHU and Yale. Only one of those 5 were in my top 8. Above them were many programs which unless you are in vascular surgery would fly completely under your "competitive" radar, yet for me and for many of my colleagues is perfectly rational. Further, many people rank community, non-big name programs higher or don't even apply to the big academic programs, regardless of specialty (unless that specialty doesn't really have non-academic programs).

In summary, match lists reflect the school. Yes, schools that traditionally have stronger pre-meds are going to have MS4s with more options. People stay local. There is tremendous home institution bias, but also geographic clustering. Can school name matter? Of course it can. But, for the vast majority (95%+) of applicants, it means little to nothing. If you are a strong student with good credentials and a desire to end up at a powerhouse program in whatever specialty, you can get there and no, you don't have to stick out in some amazing way. At the tip-tip top of academic programs and in the super competitive specialties, you may get crowded out, but again, we are talking about a very small number of total students affected.

This is very informative, well written and I enjoyed reading. Much appreciated!
 
I'll save you the time: top 20 med schools tend to send more of their grads to the older, highly respected IM programs (MGH, UCSF, etc.)
So the t20 med students who also happen to have the higher step class averages on average end up matching at the older IM programs? Considering they can match in the best places why would they choose those programs if they weren't any good?
 
This statement is a glaring example of why pre-meds "analyzing" match lists is not useful. Hopkins, as an institution, is well-regarded. Does that mean that their training programs are the best, or even in the top tier, across the board? No.
I chose it because it topped the doximity survey of pathologists for best path residencies, not because of the medical school. See my mention of Miami ophtho a few posts later

Not a safe assumption.
There's actually data about it, gonnif posted it somewhere recently, it is ~25% married at the end of med school (and ~9% were married going in iirc)

There are "tiers" of residencies based on reputation in each specialty, no one will argue that point. As has been previously stated, these tiers are not consistent across specialties (i.e. you're not going to find too many ivy league's in the upper echelons of emergency medicine). The disagreement is using the prevalence of "top tier" programs on a match list to gauge a school's ability to put you into the program you want when you graduate.
Eh, there were def disagreements about whether there are even discernible residency tiers, see discussion about UCSF derm type matches vs small community peds matches and how you can't learn anything from such a comparison because maybe the latter wanted that most. I've never argued anything about going to a med school because it will ensure you match well.

So the t20 med students who also happen to have the higher step class averages on average end up matching at the older IM programs? Considering they can match in the best places why would they choose those programs if they weren't any good?
It's too bad we can't get some juicy data about how people with average step scores match out of various med schools. Closest I've ever seen to some kind of confirmed bias is the NRMP data about "grad of a highly regarded school" that mimelim waived away as inconsistent with his experience
 
So the t20 med students who also happen to have the higher step class averages on average end up matching at the older IM programs? Considering they can match in the best places why would they choose those programs if they weren't any good?
No one said they weren't quality programs. The trend of the more experienced folks in this thread has been that using the proportion of applicants who match at these programs as a heavily weighted data point when evaluating medical schools is overly simplistic. No one ever said MGH doesn't train great docs (at least no one in this thread...)
 
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I chose it because it topped the doximity survey of pathologists for best path residencies, not because of the medical school. See my mention of Miami ophtho a few posts later


There's actually data about it, gonnif posted it somewhere recently, it is ~25% married at the end of med school


Eh, there were def disagreements about whether there are even discernible residency tiers, see discussion about UCSF derm type matches vs small community peds matches and how you can't learn anything from such a comparison because maybe the latter wanted that most. I've never argued anything about going to a med school because it will ensure you match well.


It's too bad we can't get some juicy data about how people with average step scores match out of various med schools. Closest I've ever seen to some kind of confirmed bias is the NRMP data about "grad of a highly regarded school" that mimelim waived away as inconsistent with his experience
Is there granular data for school and matching program?
 
Look into how the doximity "rankings" are formulated. Not super useful.
Isn't it a survey of tens of thousands of physicians where each is asked to name like a best handful of res for their specialty, and the ones named most often go to the top?

What would be a better way? Is your advising at a MD school likely to be more accurate (gyngyn seems to have seen the opposite)
 
What do you mean?
Are there matchlists available for schools outlining which program they matched in ? I have been having a hard time finding it for some schools , whereas others are easily accessible.
 
Eh, there were def disagreements about whether there are even discernible residency tiers, see discussion about UCSF derm type matches vs small community peds matches and how you can't learn anything from such a comparison because maybe the latter wanted that most. I've never argued anything about going to a med school because it will ensure you match well.
My reading, and I agree, was that you can't discern much from a match list replete with small community program matches because you can't discern the motives of the applicants that matched to these programs. Institutions are undeniably tiered by reputation. That reputation is only valuable to certain subsets of applicants.
Isn't it a survey of tens of thousands of physicians where each is asked to name like a best handful of res for their specialty, and the ones named most often go to the top?
What would be a better way? Is your advising at a MD school likely to be more accurate (gyngyn seems to have seen the opposite)
The doximity survey tells me a couple things: 1) which programs have the most alumni and 2) which programs have alumni that are interested in filling out a survey declaring their training program as the best. Neither of these are necessarily useful to me as an applicant.
What would be a better way to rank programs? The better question is what is the utility in ranking programs at all, beyond your own personal rank list. I had a certain set of criteria I wanted a program to meet. I researched programs, identified which ones met those criteria, applied, interviewed, then made my list.
 
Are there matchlists available for schools outlining which program they matched in ? I have been having a hard time finding it for some schools , whereas others are easily accessible.
You mean like WashU's database? Yeah it totally depends on school, some places guard theirs as a close secret, even some great schools that I'm sure have impressive matches.

Why, you thinking of trying to compile something like % matching to a top tier res (if we could define such a thing) out of various med schools or something?
 
you can't discern much from a match list replete with small community program matches because you can't discern the motives of the applicants that matched to these programs
I think the underlying assumption I've had that I haven't said outright yet is that if everyone at that school had +30 to their step score, their match list would become very different. Maybe not of course, maybe everyone there really would apply, interview and rank the same if given the ability to do anything.

The doximity survey tells me a couple things: 1) which programs have the most alumni and 2) which programs have alumni that are interested in filling out a survey declaring their training program as the best. Neither of these are super useful to me as an applicant.
What would be a better way to rank programs? The better question is what is the utility in ranking programs at all, beyond your own personal rank list. I had a certain set of criteria I wanted a program to meet. I researched programs, identified which ones met those criteria, applied, interviewed, then made my list.
They actually control for that. I read their methods pdf and came away thinking it had no glaring obvious flaws.

You just now mentioned tiers yourself, I'm simply asking how you became aware of them / how you'd know what the top tier was for your specialty of interest.
 
You mean like WashU's database? Yeah it totally depends on school, some places guard theirs as a close secret, even some great schools that I'm sure have impressive matches.

Why, you thinking of trying to compile something like % matching to a top tier res (if we could define such a thing) out of various med schools or something?
I was just thinking of frequency of matching into programs from t20 schools. It would illuminate where the t-20 crowd like to go atleast.
 
I was just thinking of frequency of matching into programs from t20 schools. It would illuminate where the t-20 crowd like to go atleast.
You could probably find the lists for at least half of the T20 and for some of them a bunch of years' worth.

Time consuming stuff tho. Maybe we should get that crazy dude that logged every II on the 2015-2016 threads in here.
 
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I think the underlying assumption I've had that I haven't said outright yet is that if everyone at that school had +30 to their step score, their match list would become very different. Maybe not of course, maybe everyone there really would apply, interview and rank the same if given the ability to do anything.


They actually control for that. I read their methods pdf and came away thinking it had no glaring obvious flaws.
The major academic collectives of emergency medicine disagree with your assessment: http://www.cordem.org/files/DOCUMENTLIBRARY/Board/Doximity letter.pdf

You just now mentioned tiers yourself, I'm simply asking how you became aware of them / how you'd know what the top tier was for your specialty of interest.
When I say tiers, I mean categorizing programs based on how difficult it is to obtain an interview, which is largely based on clinical performance and step scores. Advising, perusing SDN, and talking to current residents at my home program helped me gain a cursory understanding of which programs were more selective in their interview screens.
 
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The major academic collectives of emergency medicine disagree with your assessment: http://www.cordem.org/files/DOCUMENTLIBRARY/Board/Doximity letter.pdf


When I say tiers, I mean categorizing programs based on how difficult it is to obtain an interview, which is largely based on clinical performance and step scores. Advising, perusing SDN, and talking to current residents at my home program helped me gain a cursory understanding of which programs were more selective in their interview screens.
Eww. I couldnt read past social media and survey.
 
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The major academic collectives of emergency medicine disagree with your assessment: http://www.cordem.org/files/DOCUMENTLIBRARY/Board/Doximity letter.pdf
Eww. I couldnt read past social media and survey.
Hah good point, I guess it's really about what the young web savvy docs think. Their part about people skipping emergency rooms in a health crisis because of res program reputation survey was pretty funny

When I say tiers, I mean categorizing programs based on how difficult it is to obtain an interview, which is largely based on clinical performance and step scores. Advising, perusing SDN, and talking to current residents at my home program helped me gain a cursory understanding of which programs were more selective in their interview screens.
Where does one find the step scores and clerkship marks that get you an interview at a certain place? Like how do people avoid flying blind? It would be crazy to try and apply to med schools if there was no MSAR
 
Huh found this bit

"
Statistical biases may produce a distorted reflection of the opinions of all medical practitioners. For example, Doximity members might consider certain programs stronger than nonmembers do. We think this is possible but unlikely to have a large effect; Doximity's membership includes approximately one in three U.S. physicians and broadly mirrors the makeup of the U.S. physician corps on attributes such as specialty and location of practice, mitigating the risk of such sample bias.

Another uncertainty is whether respondents' nominations differed from those that might have been submitted by nonrespondents. Respondents tended to be subspecialists (68% of respondents vs. 57% of all U.S. internists), younger than 50 (54% vs. 44%) and practicing in the Midwest (31% vs 22%) or Northeast (29% vs 24%). Internists in the South (24% of respondents vs. 31% of all internists) and West (17% vs. 23%) were underrepresented.

All residency programs listed in Table 1 received the vast majority of their nominations from physicians who completed their own residency elsewhere.
"

I'm actually shocked an online member survey didn't have a much bigger skew in age
 
elfe doesn't like my opinions on things. To answer the original question, how do you tell is a place have a good match list or not/how to compare them.

1. Look at the % of students who match into competitive specialties vs not competitive.
2. Look overall at does the person match at the home school or a better school. There are some schools that just say F their own students and take the best applicant and not give preference. Other ones take their own students first. That is where you want to be so you don't slip down (Also why I have said you should take a top 5 school over a top 25 on a full ride)
3. When comparing two schools, look at the internal medicine matches. Remove the matches at the home school at compare the 10-15 matches left. Which one is better???


Thats how I would evaluate it. Thoughts @walloobi????
 
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elfe doesn't like my opinions on things. To answer the original question, how do you tell is a place have a good match list or not/how to compare them.

1. Look at the % of students who match into competitive specialties vs not competitive.
2. Look overall at does the person match at the home school or a better school. There are some schools that just say F their own students and take the best applicant and not give preference. Other ones take their own students first. That is where you want to be so you don't slip down (Also why I have said you should take a top 5 school over a top 25 on a full ride)
3. When comparing two schools, look at the internal medicine matches. Remove the matches at the home school at compare the 10-15 matches left. Which one is better???


Thats how I would evaluate it. Thoughts @walloobi????
Meh, this doesn't take into account mission. Some schools have a ton of primary care matches and very few matches in competitive specialties because they specifically recruit/accept students interested in primary care. Doesn't mean that students who want to specialize in competitive fields can't do so from that school.
 
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elfe doesn't like my opinions on things. To answer the original question, how do you tell is a place have a good match list or not/how to compare them.

1. Look at the % of students who match into competitive specialties vs not competitive.
2. Look overall at does the person match at the home school or a better school. There are some schools that just say F their own students and take the best applicant and not give preference. Other ones take their own students first. That is where you want to be so you don't slip down (Also why I have said you should take a top 5 school over a top 25 on a full ride)
3. When comparing two schools, look at the internal medicine matches. Remove the matches at the home school at compare the 10-15 matches left. Which one is better???


Thats how I would evaluate it. Thoughts @walloobi????

I would argue against comparing the % of people going into competitive specialties, and here is why: Even for the most competitive residencies, the match rate is about 80%. Which means for a decently competitive school, if 50 people apply for a competitive residency, about 40 people are going to get in, making their match list "appear" very competitive. Of course, we'd have to control for the varying competitiveness of the applicants to each field and all that, but the point remains. The % of people going into competitive fields is highly dependent on the amount of people applying.

There are a few examples of objectively less "renown" institutions matching more people into certain fields. Of course Georgetown is a good school, but it is arguably less renown than say UVA, and yet the proportion of people matching in Ortho there is clearly higher. Better would be to count the number of Preliminary-surgery matches, which approximates the amount of people who had to SOAP for a residency.
 
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I only share this kind of info with those I'm directly responsible for (on a need to know basis)!
I can tell you that "top 10" medical schools can have really weak surgical programs (including Gyn).
Likewise, a program in the "deep" south might have the best reputation among insiders.

for gyn: UAB? (http://www.brimr.org/NIH_Awards/2016/NIH_Awards_2016.htm)

It's too bad we can't get some juicy data about how people with average step scores match out of various med schools. Closest I've ever seen to some kind of confirmed bias is the NRMP data about "grad of a highly regarded school" that mimelim waived away as inconsistent with his experience

Avg step score vs. match (in a non-super-competitive specialty, ex. peds) changes depending on the quality of advice a MS4 receives. An avg score applicant at a lower tier school may be advised to apply "broadly, ~40 programs, aiming mostly at middle to low tier residencies". An avg score applicant at a high rank school will be advised to "apply wherever you want, around 20ish programs, you should be ok." At the end of the day, the avg score applicant from the lower tier school would match a low/mid tier school. However, had that same applicant followed the advice from the high rank school, the applicant will still be able to match, just at a better residency than had the applicant followed the advice from the lower tier school. It seems to be a vicious cycle where applicants from certain schools don't end up aiming high because they think they won't match, and the underclassmen follow suit because they think the upperclassmen were unable to match any better. Therefore, when someone does match very well, it ends up being a "surprise".
 
for gyn: UAB? (http://www.brimr.org/NIH_Awards/2016/NIH_Awards_2016.htm)



Avg step score vs. match (in a non-super-competitive specialty, ex. peds) changes depending on the quality of advice a MS4 receives. An avg score applicant at a lower tier school may be advised to apply "broadly, ~40 programs, aiming mostly at middle to low tier residencies". An avg score applicant at a high rank school will be advised to "apply wherever you want, around 20ish programs, you should be ok." At the end of the day, the avg score applicant from the lower tier school would match a low/mid tier school. However, had that same applicant followed the advice from the high rank school, the applicant will still be able to match, just at a better residency than had the applicant followed the advice from the lower tier school. It seems to be a vicious cycle where applicants from certain schools don't end up aiming high because they think they won't match, and the underclassmen follow suit because they think the upperclassmen were unable to match any better. Therefore, when someone does match very well, it ends up being a "surprise".
Arent people free to apply where ever in addition to the advice provided by the school? Worse case senario you dont get an interview at a "top tier" and end up ranking and matching into the "lower tier" program.
 
Arent people free to apply where ever in addition to the advice provided by the school? Worse case senario you dont get an interview at a "top tier" and end up ranking and matching into the "lower tier" program.
Sure. So then this applicant would end up applying to 60 programs? I'm not sure how many times I've heard the following:
1. I can't afford to apply to so many places.
2. I can't afford travel to all these places, if I do get the interview.
3. I don't have enough time/energy to travel to all these places.
4. If I cancel an interview in location X, will they tell other programs in location X?
5. Will the other programs (if programs talk to one another) in location X then rank me lower/not at all?

TL;DR: It's not simply "why don't I just apply everywhere and then figure it out"
 
Sure. So then this applicant would end up applying to 60 programs? I'm not sure how many times I've heard the following:
1. I can't afford to apply to so many places.
2. I can't afford travel to all these places, if I do get the interview.
3. I don't have enough time/energy to travel to all these places.
4. If I cancel an interview in location X, will they tell other programs in location X?
5. Will the other programs (if programs talk to one another) in location X then rank me lower/not at all?

TL;DR: It's not simply "why don't I just apply everywhere and then figure it out"
None of those excuses would hold if the applicant really wanted to match at a "top tier"
 
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