MD & DO How to report academic integrity violations

[MaynardSandwich11203]

Longtime lurker, first time poster.

I'm an M2 at a midwestern school (we take step in M3 thank god). My school is doing exams "by honor code" these days, so obviously cheating is rampant. My roommate has been pretty actively cheating on these exams (group calls, google, etc), which he has admitted to me (and only me, supposedly) via text. Obviously, the next step here is to report it to administration.

However, I'm worried about a number of things:

1. That he'll now start defaulting on rent (which means I am now out a few thousand bucks to keep my credit good)
2. That he'll go around our apartment smashing and defacing stuff (I have ~$11k worth of valuables, plus any damages to the apartment itself)
3. That he'll take physical action against me, particularly given that we live in the same home (we had a girl kill herself after she failed a remediation exam a couple years back, and suicide and homicide aren't that far apart)
4. That even if I ask administration to keep me anonymous, they will partially or completely fail to do so

For reference, I have asked (anonymously) our dean to provide an anonymous way to report these kinds of things--she has basically shot that idea down bc its our ethical responsibility to report these issues. Which I understand...I'd just like to survive this as well.

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[throwaway1000000]

I know it's hard but just tell that guy to stop doing it. If he continues to do it after you telling him that you will have to report him, then you can then report him.
He is obviously not the only guy doing it based on your post.
I am sure he can pass these tests with a little bit of studying. When the alternative to stopping cheating is getting kicked out of school, most people start studying on their own.

 

[MaynardSandwich11203]

I know it's hard but just tell that guy to stop doing it. If he continues to do it after you telling him that you will have to report him, then you can then report him.
He is obviously not the only guy doing it based on your post.
I am sure he can pass these tests with a little bit of studying. When the alternative to stopping cheating is getting kicked out of school, most people start studying on their own.

Would that really end it tho? Feel like he'd just keep doing it and not tell me...

 

[throwaway1000000]

Would that really end it tho? Feel like he'd just keep doing it and not tell me...

I mean you have to give him a chance. Just have a honest conversation with him. He will understand.
Lot of med schools have gone to p/f during preclinical years. If you are a p/f med school, the benefit for him to cheating is non-existent. Even studying a few hours a day is enough to pass these tests. If he is not able to study even a few hours a day, he doesn't belong in medical school.
If your school is graded and he is cheating to get a high grade, then you should explain to him that cheating will cause him to be kicked out. Forget about getting a high grade, he will never become a doctor. For most rational people, that is enough to understand not to cheat.
If he does it behind your back, then I don't think that should be your problem.

 

[Flexatron]

just leave him be dude....why are you being such a snitch?

 

[Gilakend]

I think this is a troll.

"Obviously, the next step here is to report it to administration."
"I'd just like to survive this"

No one talks like that. Most was believable though.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

just leave him be dude....why are you being such a snitch?

Lol at the idea that someone having integrity is the bad guy and not the people rampantly cheating.

 

[Espressso]

Lol at the idea that someone having integrity is the bad guy and not the people rampantly cheating.

It's not so much who's the bad guy... It's more so just focusing on yourself and not worrying too much about others. In this case, I think it's worth talking to him one on one and confronting him. But if he continues after that, you can then try to report it.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It's not so much who's the bad guy... It's more so just focusing on yourself and not worrying too much about others. In this case, I think it's worth talking to him one on one and confronting him. But if he continues after that, you can then try to report it.

I agree, but calling someone a snitch for following the honor code is ridiculous. Handle things at the lowest level possible. Talk to him first, but if he doesn’t listen you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[Modstopizdy]

I'm going to give the OP the benefit of the doubt and say he's a troll, but it's not completely out of the question he's actually a bona-fide snitch taking to the internet to virtue signal. What a world we live in .

 

[twospadz]

Don't do anything. If he gets in trouble, he will suspect you immediately. Cheating will hurt him the long run through step exams which he will struggle with if he's not learning the material. Just focus on yourself

 

[shulk]

It's unfortunate, but I wouldn't recommend doing anything here. At most you could have a discussion with your roommate about whether or not they are planning on learning the material, which is important, but that would only be feasible if you and them are on good terms. Other than that, there seems to be no direct benefit to you, and only potential harms by pursuing this. The admin is wrong, it is not your responsibility to proctor your classmates, it is the school's responsibility to train good students and limit the harms of fraud and cheating. That's ostensibly part of why we are helping pay for their exorbitant salaries.

 

[star.buck]

Is your class ranked or are you one of the pass/fail schools? If you guys aren't ranked I see no reason to potentially put yourself on the line over someone else's actions. The Steps will crush him if he isn't willing to put in the time to learn the material now and is counting on cheating through it all.

If you are ranked, then I could see how these actions might potentially impact those of you who are not cheating.

I commend your integrity, but is this a "hill to die on"?

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

Don't do anything. Worry about yourself. Karma has a way of catching up with people like this who cheat so it won't matter much in the long run. The worse you thing you could do is snitch on this individual which is arguably just as bad as cheating in the first place. You are not a cop nor is it your business what someone else tries to do on their own accord.

I've seen many incidences of my own classmates cheating over the years (attendance, assignments, exams, etc). They may get away once or even 100 times but in the end they will get caught on their own.

 

[altblue]

I mean you have to give him a chance. Just have a honest conversation with him. He will understand.
Lot of med schools have gone to p/f during preclinical years. If you are a p/f med school, the benefit for him to cheating is non-existent. Even studying a few hours a day is enough to pass these tests. If he is not able to study even a few hours a day, he doesn't belong in medical school.
If your school is graded and he is cheating to get a high grade, then you should explain to him that cheating will cause him to be kicked out. Forget about getting a high grade, he will never become a doctor. For most rational people, that is enough to understand not to cheat.
If he does it behind your back, then I don't think that should be your problem.

I mean, unless you have an exceptional memory, passing a med school exam still takes a reasonable amount of effort. Maybe his roommate is lazy, or paranoid

 

[MaynardSandwich11203]

Is your class ranked or are you one of the pass/fail schools? If you guys aren't ranked I see no reason to potentially put yourself on the line over someone else's actions. The Steps will crush him if he isn't willing to put in the time to learn the material now and is counting on cheating through it all.

If you are ranked, then I could see how these actions might potentially impact those of you who are not cheating.

I commend your integrity, but is this a "hill to die on"?

We get letter grades, and they're generally based on a curve. Lets put it this way: before quarantine I was sitting squarely at a 3.5, last block I got a 2.7. Obviously grades are of significantly less importance, but I'd hate to fail a class I should have passed because I chose not to google. And we do eventually get ranked once pre-clinical is over, and that's going to be a pain in the rectum.

You're probably right tho...

 

[MaynardSandwich11203]

I mean you have to give him a chance. Just have a honest conversation with him. He will understand.
Lot of med schools have gone to p/f during preclinical years. If you are a p/f med school, the benefit for him to cheating is non-existent. Even studying a few hours a day is enough to pass these tests. If he is not able to study even a few hours a day, he doesn't belong in medical school.
If your school is graded and he is cheating to get a high grade, then you should explain to him that cheating will cause him to be kicked out. Forget about getting a high grade, he will never become a doctor. For most rational people, that is enough to understand not to cheat.
If he does it behind your back, then I don't think that should be your problem.

We haven't had a cut-and-dry conversation about it, but a few passing comments during normal conversation. His justification is that he "needs" to be a surgeon and the only way to do that is with a super high GPA. And since everyone else is doing it, it isn't really that bad.

Cheating will cause him to be kicked out but like...if not one reports it then maybe not? Like as much as the student handbook talks about cheating, it also talks about how not reporting it is just as bad. Its the reason Joe Paterno's legacy is tarnished (not comparing the two crimes, more the lack of action).

Not trying to be argumentative, i've just been debating this for 2 weeks and I can see 9000 different angles.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

We haven't had a cut-and-dry conversation about it, but a few passing comments during normal conversation. His justification is that he "needs" to be a surgeon and the only way to do that is with a super high GPA. And since everyone else is doing it, it isn't really that bad.

Cheating will cause him to be kicked out but like...if not one reports it then maybe not? Like as much as the student handbook talks about cheating, it also talks about how not reporting it is just as bad. Its the reason Joe Paterno's legacy is tarnished (not comparing the two crimes, more the lack of action).

Not trying to be argumentative, i've just been debating this for 2 weeks and I can see 9000 different angles.

And what happens when he cuts corners as a surgeon and kills someone?

 

[Chibucks15]

And what happens when he cuts corners as a surgeon and kills someone?

Cheating in an online preclinical course is in no way remotely even close to medical malpractice cmon now that's such a reach. People who cheat repeatedly will get caught. It's impossible to get through med school and boards without learning the material even a little bit. Obviously nobody codones cheating but there are much more negative outcomes than positive ones in this situation

 

[deleted936470]

just confront him


but record it on tik tok and post here


EDIT: wait, who is asking? is this your homie or a MMI prompt?

 

[deleted915325]

You should make this into a poll with options: 1) Report him immediately; 2) Call him out person-to-person and only report him if you see him/hear about him doing it again; 3) Not do anything at all and just let him be.

 

[star.buck]

just confront him


but record it on tik tok and post here


EDIT: wait, who is asking? is this your homie or a MMI prompt?

Oh my gawwwd. This is an MMI prompt.

 

[deleted936470]

Oh my gawwwd. This is an MMI prompt.

Oh, ok. In regards to the prompt I would say something on the lines of:

• Understand why they are cheating in the first place; perhaps they are in a dark spot and need halp
• If they have a good reason - advocate for them to talk to the prof to write the exam on another day; be a leader!!
• No good reason = convince them to confess to the prof of their own actions; give them a chance
  • If it affects the grade of everyone in the course if the overall grades were to be bell curved, then not fair!!!
  • Some people in the course may be depending on a good grade for academic scholarships for tuition; be holistic and consider multiple angles
  • It's unfair for those who studied hard, and unfair for those who didn't study and are willing to accept the consequences of their actions; no fair wah wah
  • After all attempts, I would tell the prof in private (thru text message) as you are advocating for yourself and the rest of class but acknowledge this would negatively affect your living situation, lends you no benefit, and you are willing to accept that.

You could also decide not to rat them out. I would say something on the lines of:

• Understand why they are cheating in the first place as above
• Talk to them about other options besides cheating; maybe recommend not cheating?
• Try and help them see the repercussions and how it could be unfair to others; do they actually care about people?
• Suggest you could form a study group for subsequent exams so everyone can keep each other focused and improve
• If they still decide the cheat
  • Suggest that you've done the best you could convincing them, and that you won't ever understand the circumstances they are under (i.e. sympathize)
  • Ratting out your friend doesn't mean that there couldn't be others in the exam who are also cheating and ruining it for everyone; does it solve anything?
  • Also suggest that they may be a friend, who's a good person and helped you in the past & their one mistake/action shouldn't be a reason to ruin a good friendship over. If it's a crappy roommate then maybe this point changes.

 

[plshelpvanxious]

At my school someone messaged our class president to report an anonymous violation (back when exams were in person). No one knew who reported except maybe the class president and no one knew who the complaint was against. It resulted in stricter policy to avoid cheating. Idk if this applies to online exams, but it should be possible to make the deans aware students are violating the honor code so they can make an attempt to make that less possible.

 

[star.buck]

Oh, ok. In regards to the prompt I would say something on the lines of:

• Understand why they are cheating in the first place; perhaps they are in a dark spot and need halp
• If they have a good reason - advocate for them to talk to the prof to write the exam on another day; be a leader!!
• No good reason = convince them to confess to the prof of their own actions; give them a chance
  • If it affects the grade of everyone in the course if the overall grades were to be bell curved, then not fair!!!
  • Some people in the course may be depending on a good grade for academic scholarships for tuition; be holistic and consider multiple angles
  • It's unfair for those who studied hard, and unfair for those who didn't study and are willing to accept the consequences of their actions; no fair wah wah
  • After all attempts, I would tell the prof in private (thru text message) as you are advocating for yourself and the rest of class but acknowledge this would negatively affect your living situation, lends you no benefit, and you are willing to accept that.

You could also decide not to rat them out. I would say something on the lines of:

• Understand why they are cheating in the first place as above
• Talk to them about other options besides cheating; maybe recommend not cheating?
• Try and help them see the repercussions and how it could be unfair to others; do they actually care about people?
• Suggest you could form a study group for subsequent exams so everyone can keep each other focused and improve
• If they still decide the cheat
  • Suggest that you've done the best you could convincing them, and that you won't ever understand the circumstances they are under (i.e. sympathize)
  • Ratting out your friend doesn't mean that there couldn't be others in the exam who are also cheating and ruining it for everyone; does it solve anything?
  • Also suggest that they may be a friend, who's a good person and helped you in the past & their one mistake/action shouldn't be a reason to ruin a good friendship over. If it's a crappy roommate then maybe this point changes.

ACCEPTED!!!!!! WELCOME TO MED SCHOOL!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Cheating in an online preclinical course is in no way remotely even close to medical malpractice cmon now that's such a reach. People who cheat repeatedly will get caught. It's impossible to get through med school and boards without learning the material even a little bit. Obviously nobody codones cheating but there are much more negative outcomes than positive ones in this situation

Christopher Duntsch and the various other physicians who have killed and maimed people with incompetence would disagree with that.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

At my school someone messaged our class president to report an anonymous violation (back when exams were in person). No one knew who reported except maybe the class president and no one knew who the complaint was against. It resulted in stricter policy to avoid cheating. Idk if this applies to online exams, but it should be possible to make the deans aware students are violating the honor code so they can make an attempt to make that less possible.

Our school has honor reps you can email, and they will take it to the student affairs office/module directors. The people who report it are left completely out of it.

 

[JibsGuy52]

Group calls? Skype? Seems like the whole class is cheating.

 

[MaynardSandwich11203]

Oh my gawwwd. This is an MMI prompt.

Dear god I wish...

At my school someone messaged our class president to report an anonymous violation (back when exams were in person). No one knew who reported except maybe the class president and no one knew who the complaint was against. It resulted in stricter policy to avoid cheating. Idk if this applies to online exams, but it should be possible to make the deans aware students are violating the honor code so they can make an attempt to make that less possible.

How did they report it exactly? Because I've debated doing this under a new email account...but apparently people can trace your mac address

Christopher Duntsch and the various other physicians who have killed and maimed people with incompetence would disagree with that.

Also large scale insurance fraud comes to mind.

Our school has honor reps you can email, and they will take it to the student affairs office/module directors. The people who report it are left completely out of it.

Yea. They have a forum where we can anonymously submit a question (text only) to the dean. I've twice asked them for an anonymous reporting system. Their answer is basically a monologue on how cheating is wrong and helping cheaters is wrong. Very helpful...

 

[MaynardSandwich11203]

ACCEPTED!!!!!! WELCOME TO MED SCHOOL!

Pathoma University Dr. Sattar College of Medicine, c/o 24

 

[curbsideconsult]

I don't think it's hyperbole to think that this rampant amount of cheating may eventually lead to more egregious issues. Especially for someone who wants to be a surgeon. I've been told time and time again from surgical residents of all levels that they'd rather have their underlings come to them with every stupid question than hide/lie about even the minorest of problems. It's not difficult to extrapolate the current cheating scheme to intern year where he does something like fudge lab results rather than simply say that he forgot to check them (this has happened).

 

[MaynardSandwich11203]

Oh, ok. In regards to the prompt I would say something on the lines of:

• Understand why they are cheating in the first place; perhaps they are in a dark spot and need halp
• If they have a good reason - advocate for them to talk to the prof to write the exam on another day; be a leader!!
• No good reason = convince them to confess to the prof of their own actions; give them a chance
  • If it affects the grade of everyone in the course if the overall grades were to be bell curved, then not fair!!!
  • Some people in the course may be depending on a good grade for academic scholarships for tuition; be holistic and consider multiple angles
  • It's unfair for those who studied hard, and unfair for those who didn't study and are willing to accept the consequences of their actions; no fair wah wah
  • After all attempts, I would tell the prof in private (thru text message) as you are advocating for yourself and the rest of class but acknowledge this would negatively affect your living situation, lends you no benefit, and you are willing to accept that.

You could also decide not to rat them out. I would say something on the lines of:

• Understand why they are cheating in the first place as above
• Talk to them about other options besides cheating; maybe recommend not cheating?
• Try and help them see the repercussions and how it could be unfair to others; do they actually care about people?
• Suggest you could form a study group for subsequent exams so everyone can keep each other focused and improve
• If they still decide the cheat
  • Suggest that you've done the best you could convincing them, and that you won't ever understand the circumstances they are under (i.e. sympathize)
  • Ratting out your friend doesn't mean that there couldn't be others in the exam who are also cheating and ruining it for everyone; does it solve anything?
  • Also suggest that they may be a friend, who's a good person and helped you in the past & their one mistake/action shouldn't be a reason to ruin a good friendship over. If it's a crappy roommate then maybe this point changes.

Lol so like...I have to actually pick one and roll with it...

Idk you keep referring to "having a good reason"--is there actually a good reason tho? Like I can't think of one.

 

[curbsideconsult]

How did they report it exactly? Because I've debated doing this under a new email account...but apparently people can trace your mac address

You could go old school and snail mail a complaint.

 

[Goro]

Cheating in an online preclinical course is in no way remotely even close to medical malpractice cmon now that's such a reach. People who cheat repeatedly will get caught. It's impossible to get through med school and boards without learning the material even a little bit. Obviously nobody codones cheating but there are much more negative outcomes than positive ones in this situation

There is evidence that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students. There's a reason why your clinical faculty take professionalism so seriously.

OP, do the right thing (which is hard to do sometimes, isn't it?) and report him to the Professionalism committee.

 

[MaynardSandwich11203]

You could go old school and snail mail a complaint.

And here I thought I was a boomer...

 

[MaynardSandwich11203]

There is evidence that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students. There's a reason why your clinical faculty take professionalism so seriously.

OP, do the right thing (which is hard to do sometimes, isn't it?) and report him to the Professionalism committee.

Yea...Its annoying that I live with this person, but I admit youre 100% on the money.

Follow up: Do I try to maintain anonymity, or just give it up entirely?

 

[Goro]

Yea...Its annoying that I live with this person, but I admit youre 100% on the money.

Follow up: Do I try to maintain anonymity, or just give it up entirely?

You have a right to be anonymous in this process.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yea...Its annoying that I live with this person, but I admit youre 100% on the money.

Follow up: Do I try to maintain anonymity, or just give it up entirely?

You should try to remain anonymous if you really want to. You should not have to give up anonymity, and honestly your school is missing the boat if they force people to report things without the protection of anonymity. A lot fewer people will report if they know their name will be attached to it somehow.

But it sounds like you want to do the right thing. Just because other people have no problem with dishonesty doesn't mean you have to let it go.

 

[Allosteopath]

I'd argue that you could potentially make a more generic argument. Saying you have concerns about cheating given the honor code system, and say you've heard some rumblings about widespread violations. Suggest that they start some sort of digitally proctored system to combat this.

 

[MaynardSandwich11203]

I'd argue that you could potentially make a more generic argument. Saying you have concerns about cheating given the honor code system, and say you've heard some rumblings about widespread violations. Suggest that they start some sort of digitally proctored system to combat this.

There have been a few calls for this. The dean actually went through his reasoning and I thought it was pretty sound--most programs can't be used because of lack of uniformity between pc/mac/desktop/laptop (based on a survey they sent), and the programs they've tried have had technical glitches. So in the choice between honor code and postponing all exams (not trying to take pre-clin exams while i'm on rotations), they chose this. I will definitely make a comment about the fact that this is widespread and not focal.

 

[Allosteopath]

There have been a few calls for this. The dean actually went through his reasoning and I thought it was pretty sound--most programs can't be used because of lack of uniformity between pc/mac/desktop/laptop (based on a survey they sent), and the programs they've tried have had technical glitches. So in the choice between honor code and postponing all exams (not trying to take pre-clin exams while i'm on rotations), they chose this. I will definitely make a comment about the fact that this is widespread and not focal.

I don't think the solution necessarily has to be through a specific testing application or anything like that. Maybe just have students join a proctored call with their cell phones/ipads, which are set up see workspace/monitor. (or some variation on that) Maybe even say that they may be video called and expected to show workspace/desktop/applications if/when it occurs on an individual basis. I think to say that there's a lack of uniformity, while true, is not necessarily something insurmountable for schools to accomplish with simple ideas. Now this isn't to say technical glitches won't happen, but I think a simple measure like this, while not foolproof, would keep people in line with the "honor system".

 

[ciestar]

I don't think the solution necessarily has to be through a specific testing application or anything like that. Maybe just have students join a proctored call with their cell phones/ipads, which are set up see workspace/monitor. (or some variation on that) Maybe even say that they may be video called and expected to show workspace/desktop/applications if/when it occurs on an individual basis. I think to say that there's a lack of uniformity, while true, is not necessarily something insurmountable for schools to accomplish with simple ideas. Now this isn't to say technical glitches won't happen, but I think a simple measure like this, while not foolproof, would keep people in line with the "honor system".

Hell the NBME is doing this apparently.

 

[Allosteopath]

Hell the NBME is doing this apparently.

I mean when is the last time you met a medical student without a cell phone or tablet....

 

[7331poas]

There is evidence that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students. There's a reason why your clinical faculty take professionalism so seriously.

OP, do the right thing (which is hard to do sometimes, isn't it?) and report him to the Professionalism committee.

The evidence is also that honest doctors start out as "dishonest students" if this is the bar you create. I imagine every student in the country has "cheated" on an assignment at some point in their education.

 

[ciestar]

I mean when is the last time you met a medical student without a cell phone or tablet....

Ive read something about there being two cameras. One on your computer and one so they can see your hands.

 

[deleted859689]

There have been a few calls for this. The dean actually went through his reasoning and I thought it was pretty sound--most programs can't be used because of lack of uniformity between pc/mac/desktop/laptop (based on a survey they sent), and the programs they've tried have had technical glitches. So in the choice between honor code and postponing all exams (not trying to take pre-clin exams while i'm on rotations), they chose this. I will definitely make a comment about the fact that this is widespread and not focal.

That's why they should issue a school PC to take tests on. I remember on an interview I chose not to report unless he/she does it again after I confront them, ask to join study group, if they are having an problems, etc.

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

And what happens when he cuts corners as a surgeon and kills someone?

Or worse, imagine if he starts researching stuff online in the clinic instead of blindly treating patients from memory.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Or worse, imagine if he starts researching stuff online in the clinic instead of blindly treating patients from memory.

I guess it’s my turn to roll my eyes. It’s interesting to see how many people turn their nose up at someone having some integrity. Kind of sad how many people think this kind of thing is harmless or should just be let go.

 

[Mass Effect]

You could go old school and snail mail a complaint.

And if you want to be really sneaky about it, you can drive to a neighboring town so the postmark won't out you.

The evidence is also that honest doctors start out as "dishonest students" if this is the bar you create. I imagine every student in the country has "cheated" on an assignment at some point in their education.

And I imagine you couldn't be more wrong.

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

I guess it’s my turn to roll my eyes. It’s interesting to see how many people turn their nose up at someone having some integrity. Kind of sad how many people think this kind of thing is harmless or should just be let go.

There’s integrity, then there’s stabbing someone in the back because they didn’t follow your sense of ethics. Only one of those choices deliberately hurts someone btw.

EDIT: Let me remind you these are multiple choices questions on a knowingly unproctored exam. Comparing this to lying on a surgery or whatever example is just ridiculous