MD & DO How to report academic integrity violations

[Mass Effect]

Yes but did you make it clear you would report him. This is effectively ruining someone's life. So you have to be clear, not vague.

It is not -- in any way -- the poster's responsibility to protect the cheater's life. He/she is not obligated to warn the cheater. Clearly the cheater doesn't give a damn about other people in the class, given his response when the OP told him another classmate failed. It's no one's responsibility to look out for his best interest.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[MaynardSandwich11203]

Except that most med schools have a codes of conduct that includes it being your duty to report cheating. And yes, some med schools would hold the OP responsible as well if he/she knew and didn't act.



The suicide link doesn't fit. But those of us who study this sort of thing for a living know that revenge violence is not that far-fetched, though it is unlikely.

Have received multiple emails during quarantine about code of conduct and conduct violations. And the test entry portal now makes you agree to specific cheating-related portions of the student handbook. So its a pretty blatant violation.

Indeed, student handbook makes it very clear that non-reporting is as punishable as the original offence (although they don't say where to report, so that's helpful...)

 

[7331poas]

in my experience, it's only dishonest students who have this kind of mindset

Then every student is dishonest. I don't know of any medical student in my school who has not cut corners on some BS homework assignment or otherwise at some point in the curriculum. There are more types of cheating than straight up zoom conferencing test questions.

 

[catnip12]

One thing that you could explore is your Medical Students Ethics Committee!! Do you all have one? If so bring the report up with them and I imagine they’d need to respond to it somehow.

Edit to add: I am operating under the assumption that the Ethics committees at other schools also de-identify a person and simply address the issue / pass it along the appropriate channels with no face linked to the issue. Like @Chibucks15 and others have implied... you just cannot have this under your name!! You gotta have a sort of social padding in medical school or you will go crazy / crash / burn / or worse.

 

[altblue]

Then every student is dishonest. I don't know of any medical student in my school who has not cut corners on some BS homework assignment or otherwise at some point in the curriculum. There are more types of cheating than straight up zoom conferencing test questions.

But there's a difference between skimming through HIPAA training modules and repeatedly cheating on high-stakes exams...

 

[Steve_Zissou]

And there's a difference between skimming through HIPAA training modules and repeatedly cheating on high-stakes exams...

Thats exactly what I was going to say. I’ve definitely half-assed things before, but I recognized that and accepted my poor scores for half-assing things.

 

[throwaway1000000]

if this is reported, what's the repercussion? Retaking the test or being kicked out of school?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It is very disheartening to see how many people who are going to be physicians are defending cheating or calling someone who has integrity a snitch. Very disappointing.

 

[smh343]

This person cheating directly harms any honest student who cares about class rank/AOA for their career goals in OP's class. I personally don't care about class rank, but many do. Why do they all suddenly not matter? Why does this person have any right to not have this activity known when it is harming others?

And yeah, we all cut corners with random mandatory BS training modules and stuff, but we all admit to it. I wouldn't care if my future patients knew that. I'd be very ashamed if my patients knew I cheated on actual exams.

 

[TAVR4life]

Ah yes, it was not the person cheating who ruined their own life but obviously the person who did the right thing and reported it to the right people. This is a ridiculous line of ethical reasoning. “They ruined Johnny’s life by telling the cops he was the one who stole all the jewels.” No, Johnny ruined his own life by making bad decisions, and yes I understand the magnitudes are different but the same concept still applies.

Let me guess you’ve never had moments of bad judgement or have ever done anything wrong...

No one is defending the cheater’s behavior. It’s clearly wrong. But there is more than one way to deal with dishonesty or unethical behavior, and escalating straight to the “nuclear option” that could potentially destroy someone’s entire professional life isn’t the first go-to-option for me personally.

 

[MaynardSandwich11203]

Let me guess you’ve never had moments of bad judgement or have ever done anything wrong...

No one is defending the cheater’s behavior. It’s clearly wrong. But there is more than one way to deal with dishonesty or unethical behavior, and escalating straight to the “nuclear option” that could potentially destroy someone’s entire professional life isn’t the first go-to-option for me personally.

Yea see...I've tried that, and the response has been some combo of "Everyone's doing it so its not wrong" and "I need to be a surgeon, so therefore I need to get a 4.0 even if that requires cheating".

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Let me guess you’ve never had moments of bad judgement or have ever done anything wrong...

No one is defending the cheater’s behavior. It’s clearly wrong. But there is more than one way to deal with dishonesty or unethical behavior, and escalating straight to the “nuclear option” that could potentially destroy someone’s entire professional life isn’t the first go-to-option for me personally.

Tu quoque arguments are illogical and not a legitimate argument for not reporting someone who is cheating. And repeatedly cheating is not a moment of bad judgement. It’s a pattern of behavior.

Whether you talk to him first or not, he made the decision to cheat. It sounds from the story that it is likely he has been and will continue to cheat. The only one ruining his life is him.

Any argument otherwise is just justifying crappy behavior.

 

[Lawpy]

I think in any thread at any time talking about cheating vs integrity, SDNers will split into two groups arguing about minding your own business vs reporting the cheaters. And threads usually end up being several pages long with little resolution in sight.

 

[TAVR4life]

Tu quoque arguments are illogical and not a legitimate argument for not reporting someone who is cheating. And repeatedly cheating is not a moment of bad judgement. It’s a pattern of behavior.

Whether you talk to him first or not, he made the decision to cheat. It sounds from the story that it is likely he has been and will continue to cheat. The only one ruining his life is him.

Any argument otherwise is just justifying crappy behavior.

Like I said earlier no one is justifying the cheaters behavior. The debate is how to best address it, the debate isn’t whether it’s unethical or wrong.

Everyone has their own set of moral codes and for me personally this act of unethical behavior does not warrant potentially ruining someone’s career over unless he keeps doing it despite warnings. It does warrant action and it needs to stop, just don’t think it warrants going straight to the school administration to report him as the FIRST option.

We do live in a “cancel culture” these days so am not surprised for those calling for immediate repercussions of every misjudgment.

 

[Cath Up]

Tu quoque arguments are illogical and not a legitimate argument for not reporting someone who is cheating. And repeatedly cheating is not a moment of bad judgement. It’s a pattern of behavior.

Whether you talk to him first or not, he made the decision to cheat. It sounds from the story that it is likely he has been and will continue to cheat. The only one ruining his life is him.

Any argument otherwise is just justifying crappy behavior.

Is there any point at which a student or individual can stop blindly following authority because they have decided authority's judgement is poor?

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Let me guess you’ve never had moments of bad judgement or have ever done anything wrong...

No one is defending the cheater’s behavior. It’s clearly wrong. But there is more than one way to deal with dishonesty or unethical behavior, and escalating straight to the “nuclear option” that could potentially destroy someone’s entire professional life isn’t the first go-to-option for me personally.

Of course I have. But I’m an adult now in a professional school for a career in a very high position of power. I figured my **** out before Med school so I don’t cheat/do shady ****.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Like I said earlier no one is justifying the cheaters behavior. The debate is how to best address it, the debate isn’t whether it’s unethical or wrong.

Everyone has their own set of moral codes and for me personally this act of unethical behavior does not warrant potentially ruining someone’s career over unless he keeps doing it despite warnings. It does warrant action and it needs to stop, just don’t think it warrants going straight to the school administration to report him as the FIRST option.

We do live in a “cancel culture” these days so am not surprised for those calling for immediate repercussions of every misjudgment.

The immediate repercussions come from the school, not the student reporting. The only obligation the student has in this situation is to report the possible offense to the school and provide whatever evidence/testimony they have. It’s up to the school to do the rest.

 

[altblue]

Thats exactly what I was going to say. I’ve definitely half-assed things before, but I recognized that and accepted my poor scores for half-assing things.

Yeah I honestly don't care that much if you cut slight corners on a meaningless assignment, even if I don't do it myself. But I honestly wouldn't want people who repeatedly cheat, in the instances where it matters, to be my own physician

 

[throwaway1000000]

I think OP is making us all fools here and making us argue unnecessarily.
Lot of people are not supporting cheating but are of the opinion that you warn him and tell him that you will report him to the school if doesn't stop cheating.
If you talked to him and he is not listening, go report him.
Based on your posts, you already made up your mind. I don't know how much more opinion you want from an online forum.
If you feel unsafe, call the law enforcement and tell your admin.

 

[7331poas]

But there's a difference between skimming through HIPAA training modules and repeatedly cheating on high-stakes exams...

Its all on a spectrum, i would argue.

 

[MaynardSandwich11203]

I think OP is making us all fools here and making us argue unnecessarily.
Lot of people are not supporting cheating but are of the opinion that you warn him and tell him that you will report him to the school if doesn't stop cheating.
If you talked to him and he is not listening, go report him.
Based on your posts, you already made up your mind. I don't know how much more opinion you want from an online forum.
If you feel unsafe, call the law enforcement and tell your admin.

Wasn't intentional, but here we are...

Basically going to find an alternative storage space for valuables and then report. Its about 200k out of my paygrade to decide what the punishment should be, but seems my responsibility to report (per student handbook I signed).

Thx and gg lol

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

Wasn't intentional, but here we are...

Basically going to find an alternative storage space for valuables and then report. Its about 200k out of my paygrade to decide what the punishment should be, but seems my responsibility to report (per student handbook I signed).

Thx and gg lol

If you have to hide all your valuables, fear for your safety, and go through all of this just to decide whether to report it, then maybe you know that you should just mind your own business. Get off your high horse, stop being a vigilante, and stop trying to derail someone else's career. One day something like this will come back to haunt you in one way or another. You want to talk about being immoral- how about breaking the trust of someone who told you something in confidence? What you are planning to do is just as bad as whatever "cheating" this person did.

I think there is also a very high chance this person is trolling us (joined two days ago, first post). In which case 7/10.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

If you have to hide all your valuables, fear for your safety, and go through all of this just to decide whether to report it, then maybe you know that you should just mind your own business. Get off your high horse, stop being a vigilante, and stop trying to derail someone else's career. One day something like this will come back to haunt you in one way or another. You want to talk about being immoral- how about breaking the trust of someone who told you something in confidence? What you are planning to do is just as bad as whatever "cheating" this person did.

I think there is also a very high chance this person is trolling us (joined two days ago, first post). In which case 7/10.

Doing the right thing is being on “your high horse” and a “vigilante”? What they’re doing, once again the right thing, is just as immoral as cheating? I think you have something mixed up friend.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

Doing the right thing is being on “your high horse” and a “vigilante”? What they’re doing, once again the right thing, is just as immoral as cheating? I think you have something mixed up friend.

Breaking confidentiality, betraying trust, and being a snitch are immoral. It is one thing if this individual was a clinical student and was doing something reckless that could harm others. But consulting others for a take home exam online? I am pretty sure their school expects this kind of behavior at this point and frankly probably doesn't care under the circumstances we are in right now. I would also be willing to bet this person has something against his roommate personally as well so we probably aren't getting the full picture.

 

[ciestar]

If lots of classmates are cheating.. why is OP’s roommate being singled out?

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Breaking confidentiality, betraying trust, and being a snitch are immoral. It is one thing if this individual was a clinical student and was doing something reckless that could harm others. But consulting others for a take home exam online? I am pretty sure their school expects this kind of behavior at this point and frankly probably doesn't care under the circumstances we are in right now. I would also be willing to bet this person has something against his roommate personally as well so we probably aren't getting the full picture.

But let the OP do whatever he wants. He sounds like the kind of person who deserves to have his apartment trashed and to end up in the witness protection program.

Ok, let’s pretend the first three things you said are in and of themselves immoral. Humor me in this. If a friend told you in confidence they had murdered someone, is “snitching“ immoral? Once again, I recognize that the scale and actions are different, but the underlying principle remains the same.

I’m beginning to think you don’t understand the basic concept of morality.

There is no evidence that the OP has anything against their roommates so trying to argue that is pointless.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

If lots of classmates are cheating.. why is OP’s roommate being singled out?

Does OP have physical evidence/have they told the OP? If so then they should be reported too. If OP is just assuming they’re cheating, then they have no evidence for it and it would be pointless to mention “I think others may be cheating” without something to back it up.

 

[Newyawk]

I guess it’s my turn to roll my eyes. It’s interesting to see how many people turn their nose up at someone having some integrity. Kind of sad how many people think this kind of thing is harmless or should just be let go.

It has nothing to do with integrity and everything to do with the OP.
“Obviously, the next step here is to report it to administration.”
1. Really? Putting aside the sophomoric tone (if it isnt trolling), that isnt “obvious”. That isnt the next step. The next step is to speak with his roommate and raise an issue on a class-wide level.
2. This student clearly cares more about reporting one individual than trying to mitigate cheating. He admits to being aware of rampant cheating but would rather report his roommate than reduce cheating. This isnt noble or brave, its destructive.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

Ok, let’s pretend the first three things you said are in and of themselves immoral. Humor me in this. If a friend told you in confidence they had murdered someone, is “snitching“ immoral? Once again, I recognize that the scale and actions are different, but the underlying principle remains the same.

I’m beginning to think you don’t understand the basic concept of morality.

There is no evidence that the OP has anything against their roommates so trying to argue that is pointless.

Yes of course there is huge difference with this example. Murder and looking up answers on google for some pointless makeshift preclinical exam during the coronavirus pandemic are not remotely comparable.

I only suggested that OP has something against their roommate because normal people would not go to such great efforts to try and hurt one of their classmates. Maybe OP is jealous of their roommate for some reason or isn't doing as well as they would like in school? Whatever, the case may be, this seems like a pretty weak reason to file a report. So when this person is a resident, is he also going to file a report because he overheard a colleague talking about a patient in the elevator or for leaving a chart on a table? I think I would rather work with the roommate.

 

[deleted915325]

Yes of course there is huge difference with this example. Murder and looking up answers on google for some pointless makeshift preclinical exam during the coronavirus pandemic are not remotely comparable.

I only suggested that OP has something against their roommate because normal people would not go to such great efforts to try and hurt one of their classmates. Maybe OP is jealous of their roommate for some reason or isn't doing as well as they would like in school? Whatever, the case may be, this seems like a pretty weak reason to file a report. So when this person is a resident, is he also going to file a report because he overheard a colleague talking about a patient in the elevator or for leaving a chart on a table? I think I would rather work with the roommate.

If I had to guess, OP's roommate ate OP's leftovers out of the fridge or didn't do the dishes after cooking and is now looking for revenge

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

I'm thinking OP's roommate ate OP's leftovers out of the fridge or didn't do the dishes after cooking and is now looking for revenge

Quite possible. But I've seen behavior like this before at my own school. Students who failed a class or had to remediate an exam all of a sudden take a huge interest in becoming self-proclaimed heroes in curtailing any sort of "academic dishonesty" at their institution.

Moral of the story, be careful what you text your classmates. Every school has a guy like this and it can be really hard to tell who they are.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Yes of course there is huge difference with this example. Murder and looking up answers on google for some pointless makeshift preclinical exam during the coronavirus pandemic are not remotely comparable.

I only suggested that OP has something against their roommate because normal people would not go to such great efforts to try and hurt one of their classmates. Maybe OP is jealous of their roommate for some reason or isn't doing as well as they would like in school? Whatever, the case may be, this seems like a pretty weak reason to file a report. So when this person is a resident, is he also going to file a report because he overheard a colleague talking about a patient in the elevator or for leaving a chart on a table? I think I would rather work with the roommate.

Your argument is basically “I think they probably don’t like their roommate based on zero evidence so I’m going to go with that.”

So let me take it back to step 1. Is cheating wrong?

 

[Cath Up]

Ok, let’s pretend the first three things you said are in and of themselves immoral. Humor me in this. If a friend told you in confidence they had murdered someone, is “snitching“ immoral? Once again, I recognize that the scale and actions are different, but the underlying principle remains the same.

I’m beginning to think you don’t understand the basic concept of morality.

There is no evidence that the OP has anything against their roommates so trying to argue that is pointless.

Is there any point at which a student or individual can stop blindly following authority because they have decided authority's judgement is poor?

I am curious what you would say to this as well.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

I am curious what you would say to this as well.

In the Army, I would follow orders and only question them if I felt something immoral was possibly happening. Fortunately I only had to deal with it once, but that’s the same principle here.

Cheating is wrong, full stop. There hasn’t been a good argument yet against reporting. Most of them are either “cheating isn’t that bad” “mind your own business” or “think about yourself, not what’s right.” None of those arguments sway me towards not reporting.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

Your argument is basically “I think they probably don’t like their roommate based on zero evidence so I’m going to go with that.”

So let me take it back to step 1. Is cheating wrong?

Cheating on a board exam is wrong. But it is also impossible.
Preclincial exams are just internal markers for the school to determine if you are ready to take the boards. Cheating on them doesn't do much for you if you can't pass your boards.

Look we all know that following protocol down to bone says to report it. But at some point a line has to be drawn as to what is cheating and what isn't. I am positive that 99% of people here and who are practicing medicine have gotten help on an assignment or done something comparable in their decade of training. The only difference is you weren't unlucky enough to cross paths with someone like the OP.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Cheating on a board exam is wrong. But it is also impossible.
Preclincial exams are just internal markers for the school to determine if you are ready to take the boards. Cheating on them doesn't do much for you if you can't pass your boards.

Look we all know that following protocol down to bone says to report it. But at some point a line has to be drawn as to what is cheating and what isn't. I am positive that 99% of people here and who are practicing medicine have gotten help on an assignment or done something comparable in their decade of training. The only difference is you weren't unlucky enough to cross paths with someone like the OP.

You dodged my question. Is cheating wrong? Is it ok in preclinical you cheat?

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

You dodged my question. Is cheating wrong? Is it ok in preclinical you cheat?

Yeah its wrong to cheat on a normal closed book preclinical exam.

But I would say it's a grey area to do so on an open book take home exam. If the school really cared about maintaining academic integrity, they should have done something to prevent students from being able to look up answers/consult others (delayed the exam, put security measures in place, etc). But it appears they didn't - hence this kind of behavior should be expected. Why should the OPs roommate be penalized for doing something that a majority of their class also did?

 

[Mass Effect]

Like I said earlier no one is justifying the cheaters behavior. The debate is how to best address it, the debate isn’t whether it’s unethical or wrong.

Everyone has their own set of moral codes and for me personally this act of unethical behavior does not warrant potentially ruining someone’s career over unless he keeps doing it despite warnings. It does warrant action and it needs to stop, just don’t think it warrants going straight to the school administration to report him as the FIRST option.

We do live in a “cancel culture” these days so am not surprised for those calling for immediate repercussions of every misjudgment.

Might want to read the thread. The OP already confronted the roommate.

If you have to hide all your valuables, fear for your safety, and go through all of this just to decide whether to report it, then maybe you know that you should just mind your own business

Oh good lord, can the faulty logic be any more pronounced? Yes, if you fear someone's response, you should just let them get away with what they're doing no matter how wrong because their volatile response should serve as your moral compass. Must be a culture of the bigger, stronger, more angry a person is, the more right they are.

Get off your high horse, stop being a vigilante, and stop trying to derail someone else's career

Sounds like the cheater derailed his own career. Not to worry though, the cheater will be here in no time talking about getting kicked out of med school "for no reason." And then there'll be a lawsuit that will start another epic thread in a couple of years and this whole thing will be resurrected.

One day something like this will come back to haunt you in one way or another. You want to talk about being immoral- how about breaking the trust of someone who told you something in confidence? What you are planning to do is just as bad as whatever "cheating" this person did

I just can't. Yes, turning someone in just as bad as the dishonest thing they did. Of course.

But let the OP do whatever he wants. He sounds like the kind of person who deserves to have his apartment trashed and to end up in the witness protection program.

This is probably the most inappropriate comment of the entire thread. Can't believe you actually said that.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Yeah its wrong to cheat on a normal closed book preclinical exam.

But I would say it's a grey area to do so on an open book take home exam. If the school really cared about maintaining academic integrity, they should have done something to prevent students from being able to look up answers/consult others (delayed the exam, put security measures in place, etc). But it appears they didn't - hence this kind of behavior should be expected. Why should the OPs roommate be penalized for doing something that a majority of their class also did?

The exam isn’t open book. Is it ok to cheat on a take home exam if it’s not open book?

 

[Cath Up]

In the Army, I would follow orders and only question them if I felt something immoral was possibly happening. Fortunately I only had to deal with it once, but that’s the same principle here.

Cheating is wrong, full stop. There hasn’t been a good argument yet against reporting. Most of them are either “cheating isn’t that bad” “mind your own business” or “think about yourself, not what’s right.” None of those arguments sway me towards not reporting.

Authority isn't just right because they're authority. I'm glad you spoke up when you felt something wrong happened.

Cheating is wrong and so are a lot of other behaviors that get students/residents/physicians into trouble. My possibly incorrect perception, though is that there is more often some program or pathway through which those with substance abuse issues, for example (which places patients at substantially greater risk) to stop the behavior and be re-educated. Cheating doesn't seem to have that. Every malignant behavior shows a pattern of poor judgement over time. That's what makes it so bad. But people like that are often not beyond repair. Schools seem to have decided that cheaters are beyond repair.

Cheating is placed on a pedestal of being the ultimate sin. Practices that are clearly profoundly more harmful to both the individual and those they interact with are more often given a second shot and a formal opportunity at re-learning.

 

[Allosteopath]

Meanwhile in the faculty's mind after learning of the reported student.

"Well we knew that people were probably going to cheat and didn't do anything to deter it, but didn't think anyone was going to report it, guess we gotta do something about it now"

RIP to that student.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

The exam isn’t open book. Is it ok to cheat on a take home exam if it’s not open book?

If it was a board question- I would probably answer no.

But in practice-I don't think looking up answers on a take home exam constitutes as cheating. No matter what any sort of honor code says, professors know that students will resort to that and usually compensate by making the exam more difficult. But if you or anyone else would rather get a lower grade to make a statement, then I am sure no one will stop you.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Authority isn't just right because they're authority. I'm glad you spoke up when you felt something wrong happened.

Cheating is wrong and so are a lot of other behaviors that get students/residents/physicians into trouble. My possibly incorrect perception, though is that there is more often some program or pathway through which those with substance abuse issues, for example (which places patients at substantially greater risk) to stop the behavior and be re-educated. Cheating doesn't seem to have that. Every malignant behavior shows a pattern of poor judgement over time. That's what makes it so bad. But people like that are often not beyond repair. Schools seem to have decided that cheaters are beyond repair.

Cheating is placed on a pedestal of being the ultimate sin. Practices that are clearly profoundly more harmful to both the individual and those they interact with are more often given a second shot and a formal opportunity at re-learning.

I think the reason it’s considered so seriously is because it’s something that is very unambiguously wrong, under individual control, and because professional students should be held to a much higher standard.

I remember in undergrad a friend who cheated and got caught. Got put on probation and went on to finish undergrad. I assume they were more lenient because we were freshmen and it was a Lowe level of education with lower expectations.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

If it was a board question- I would probably answer no.

But in practice-I don't think looking up answers on a take home exam constitutes as cheating. No matter what any sort of honor code says, professors know that students will resort to that and usually compensate by making the exam more difficult. But if you or anyone else would rather get a lower grade to make a statement, then I am sure no one will stop you.

I’m not going to argue the definition of cheating with you, it’s pretty clearly defined and the OPs roommate is clearly cheating. Doesn’t matter whether you consider it to be so or not.

I’ve had the chance to cheat on an anatomy practical exam that I was likely to fail during first year. I failed the exam instead and worked my ass off to recover on the next one. Why?Because it’s the right thing to do.

 

[gyngyn]

It appears that OP got their answer.