How to survive 3rd year without becoming depressed

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waterbuffalo1

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3rd year rotations are starting very soon. The MS4's had a Q&A for us, and emphasized that 3rd year is a very very difficult and stressful year, and social support is crucial. My social support is almost nonexistent. About 90% of my class are like strangers to me, and although I have made a few friends, I consider them more as close acquaintances. I have one friend whom I feel the closest to, but I have doubts about our friendship; sometimes I feel like she mostly asks me about school-related stuff that she is confused about...deadlines, requirements, etc whenever she talks to me. It doesn't feel like a real friendship. To make matters worse, I live alone. I tried living with someone, but it didn't work out. I always look forward to vacation so I can leave town and go home to family. When break is over and I return to school, I get this dreadful panicked feeling. Sometimes I just want to cry (and I do). When rotations begin and I am sad, I will have to hide my feelings and put on a happy, eager-to-learn face...this will be very challenging to do. I am worried I will become depressed and it will affect my performance on wards. I don't know how I can survive 1 year of stress, lack of support, loneliness, feelings of incompetency, etc. Can anyone relate to me? Have words of advice? I really appreciate your help.
 
Try to talk with and get support from the other students on your assigned teams. I've actually gotten to know other classmates that I previously had little contact with/wasn't friends with, and it turns out most are cooler than I thought. I find it hard to believe that you can't get along with 90% of your class. Give people a chance. You might be surprised.

Also, you won't feel 100% stupid all the time. I'm just a few months into rotations and I already feel a great deal better about my skills. Not because I improved that much, but I'm just used to the climate and understand more of what's expected of a student. Just give it your best shot and enjoy seeing and doing things that you might not ever do again in your career.

If these things don't work, maybe you should seek counseling from your school's mental health center. We have counseling that's anonymous and open to students.
 
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Disclaimer: I'm just a MS-1, but here are my thoughts:
I am looking forward to third year, because, hey, you actually get to start getting clinical experience and playing doctor instead of spending all your time in the library. This is my perspective anyway.

#1 - I get a lot of support from attending a church in my place of living that is small, and getting to know the people here really helps out. I don't know your spiritual beliefs, but maybe you could check some spiritual things out.

#2 - Exercise helps me feel happy. You might also invite a classmate to work out with you and therefore make a new buddy over time.

#3 - Some of the work of building relationships just happen when you choose to attend the extracurricular events consistently with your classmates. They get to know you as a person, and you get to know them. It takes work to make new friends, but you can do it!
 
3rd year rotations are starting very soon. The MS4's had a Q&A for us, and emphasized that 3rd year is a very very difficult and stressful year, and social support is crucial. My social support is almost nonexistent. About 90% of my class are like strangers to me, and although I have made a few friends, I consider them more as close acquaintances. I have one friend whom I feel the closest to, but I have doubts about our friendship; sometimes I feel like she mostly asks me about school-related stuff that she is confused about...deadlines, requirements, etc whenever she talks to me. It doesn't feel like a real friendship. To make matters worse, I live alone. I tried living with someone, but it didn't work out. I always look forward to vacation so I can leave town and go home to family. When break is over and I return to school, I get this dreadful panicked feeling. Sometimes I just want to cry (and I do). When rotations begin and I am sad, I will have to hide my feelings and put on a happy, eager-to-learn face...this will be very challenging to do. I am worried I will become depressed and it will affect my performance on wards. I don't know how I can survive 1 year of stress, lack of support, loneliness, feelings of incompetency, etc. Can anyone relate to me? Have words of advice? I really appreciate your help.

If you don't mind me saying, I was reading your post and I already get the feeling that you might already be on the verge of being depressed. You sound lonely and it seems that you don't have anyone to really share your experience with. You say that when you return to school, you are noting anxiety and that you sometimes have crying spells. I think it's a good idea to nip this in the bud before it becomes more of an issue, or becomes exacerbated by the stresses of 3rd year. Before you start rotations, where your time becomes more scarce and not your own, now would be a good time to start some counseling, or get some emotional support. Your school is likely to have some free and anonymous resources that you can tap into, or you can do it on your own, as well. Find out how you are creating to be alone and how you are preventing yourself from building critical support relationships. Resolve this isolation thing that you are creating now before you start rotations.

The thing to realize is that you are not alone. Everyone at your level goes through similar things. 3rd year is tough, especially at first, because there is a lot to adjust to and a very steep learning curve. Most everyone has a hard time adjusting and has feelings of loneliness, incompetency, etc. It really is critical that you don't isolate yourself, or you will put yourself at greater risk for depression. Start, right now, developing a support system and building relationships with some classmates who will be rotating where you will be. Get yourself in league with some classmates. I found that it's good to have some people to talk to regularly who are going through, or have gone through, the same thing as you are going through every day. It's hard for people who haven't gone through the rigors of clerkships (or are going through) to appreciate the rather unique frustrations that we are prone to on the wards. You shouldn't do it alone, or set it up to do it alone. Make an effort to hang out and get stuff off of your chest regularly during the week with a group of people at your level, whether it is from your school, or from other schools.

While it is important to be professional, etc., do not stuff your emotions. That's a sure way to get depressed and for your feelings to thwart you. Find someone you can trust, whether it is with a friend, with family, or with a professional, and make a point to share what's going on with you. Dealing with your feelings appropriately (instead of stuffing them) as they come up and not letting them build up, helps you stay strong and do well during rotations. Don't do this alone please. If you can't create a group of peers to talk to regularly, then please talk to a professional...someone who will listen without judgment.

Develop good habits and stick to them when you start rotations. Do stuff that makes you happy and make an effort to keep up with that sort of thing. Do something non-medical and fun when you can. It'll keep your head straight.
 
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3rd year rotations are starting very soon. The MS4's had a Q&A for us, and emphasized that 3rd year is a very very difficult and stressful year, and social support is crucial. My social support is almost nonexistent. About 90% of my class are like strangers to me, and although I have made a few friends, I consider them more as close acquaintances. I have one friend whom I feel the closest to, but I have doubts about our friendship; sometimes I feel like she mostly asks me about school-related stuff that she is confused about...deadlines, requirements, etc whenever she talks to me. It doesn't feel like a real friendship. To make matters worse, I live alone. I tried living with someone, but it didn't work out. I always look forward to vacation so I can leave town and go home to family. When break is over and I return to school, I get this dreadful panicked feeling. Sometimes I just want to cry (and I do). When rotations begin and I am sad, I will have to hide my feelings and put on a happy, eager-to-learn face...this will be very challenging to do. I am worried I will become depressed and it will affect my performance on wards. I don't know how I can survive 1 year of stress, lack of support, loneliness, feelings of incompetency, etc. Can anyone relate to me? Have words of advice? I really appreciate your help.
MS3 is a tough time. The onus is always on you to learn, and you're essentially always superfluous to needs (that doesn't mean you can't help out the teams; you can and you will). I found that changing rotations so often was anxiety-provoking, and there was always a sense of relief when attendings and residents were nice and took the time to teach.

Just realize that your emotions will fluctuate on a daily basis. So much depends on the person you are working with that day and the morale of the team (which is often a factor of an unpredictable work day). Knowing this and also keeping in mind that that they 'can't stop time' will keep you sane. Eventually, you will have to rotate onto another service, and eventually you will graduate.

Take one day at a time. Try to develop a thick skin early and don't take anything too seriously (that includes yourself). As a resident now I always appreciate it when medical students are 1) enthusiastic and 2) are present when they are supposed to be - whether they know much or are helpful is a secondary goal. There's nothing worse than a miserable medical student on the team because it's just tough to know if they hate the rotation, the profession, or if they are just having a tough time. Try to stay positive on each rotation (no need to suck up; we can see it a mile away--pass that on to your classmates), and be genuinely nice to the patients, nurses, and residents. If you do that, you'll be fine. Good luck!
 
3rd year rotations are starting very soon. The MS4's had a Q&A for us, and emphasized that 3rd year is a very very difficult and stressful year, and social support is crucial. My social support is almost nonexistent. About 90% of my class are like strangers to me, and although I have made a few friends, I consider them more as close acquaintances. I have one friend whom I feel the closest to, but I have doubts about our friendship; sometimes I feel like she mostly asks me about school-related stuff that she is confused about...deadlines, requirements, etc whenever she talks to me. It doesn't feel like a real friendship. To make matters worse, I live alone. I tried living with someone, but it didn't work out. I always look forward to vacation so I can leave town and go home to family. When break is over and I return to school, I get this dreadful panicked feeling. Sometimes I just want to cry (and I do). When rotations begin and I am sad, I will have to hide my feelings and put on a happy, eager-to-learn face...this will be very challenging to do. I am worried I will become depressed and it will affect my performance on wards. I don't know how I can survive 1 year of stress, lack of support, loneliness, feelings of incompetency, etc. Can anyone relate to me? Have words of advice? I really appreciate your help.


I honestly feel like you should seek help right away. Does your medical school have counseling services? If you're crying to yourself because you feel lonely and feel that this is affecting your studies, you need to seek help. Lots of people live by themselves and feel anxious or upset from time to time, but what you're describing sounds like this has been a prolonged problem. I don't have any more suggestions since everyone else here has already made some nice suggestions, but I don't think it's normal to feel that way and I would definitely advise you go to your medical school's counseling service and find someone to talk to about this before starting your rotations.
 
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I honestly feel like you should seek help right away. Does your medical school have counseling services? If you're crying to yourself because you feel lonely and feel that this is affecting your studies, you need to seek help. Lots of people live by themselves and feel anxious or upset from time to time, but what you're describing sounds like this has been a prolonged problem. I don't have any more suggestions since everyone else here has already made some nice suggestions, but I don't think it's normal to feel that way and I would definitely advise you go to your medical school's counseling service and find someone to talk to about this before starting your rotations.

Relax, Jay Leno.

OP, I believe that many med students feel similarly, given the fact that most of their classmates are focused, disinterested in close friendships, and are there to learn and, usually, to leave the area after graduation and begin their lives elsewhere.

I will say this: You'll become very close with the people on your rotations, even if you don't act particularly interested in them nor put forth much effort to get to know them. You spend 12 months of 12-hour days with them, and it's highly unlikely that you'll continue to feel so alone.
 
Relax, Jay Leno.

OP, I believe that many med students feel similarly, given the fact that most of their classmates are focused, disinterested in close friendships, and are there to learn and, usually, to leave the area after graduation and begin their lives elsewhere.

I will say this: You'll become very close with the people on your rotations, even if you don't act particularly interested in them nor put forth much effort to get to know them. You spend 12 months of 12-hour days with them, and it's highly unlikely that you'll continue to feel so alone.

Good call. While you may not have as much support as you like right now, when you're on a rotation with 1 or 2 other students you'll no doubt be spending at least some time talking about non-medical stuff. I've become friends with kids in my class that I never even talked to during the first two years of medical school. And as other people pointed out everyone is going to be stressed out, so you can probably talk to some of these new friends you'll have about how they cope. One thing I've learned during medical school is that everyone that is your superior (whether that is MS4's when you're and MS3, or whatever) will say things that scares you. I think a lot of it is so that you take things seriously rather than just trying to skim by and then realize you just failed a shelf or something like that. I've found that 3rd year is much more enjoyable than either of the first two years and 4th year will probably be a cakewalk if its anything like I've heard. So don't let people scare you into getting depressed before 3rd year starts, just think of what they say as something to motivate you
 
Relax, Jay Leno.

OP, I believe that many med students feel similarly, given the fact that most of their classmates are focused, disinterested in close friendships, and are there to learn and, usually, to leave the area after graduation and begin their lives elsewhere.

I will say this: You'll become very close with the people on your rotations, even if you don't act particularly interested in them nor put forth much effort to get to know them. You spend 12 months of 12-hour days with them, and it's highly unlikely that you'll continue to feel so alone.

I already seek counseling. It kind of helps, but not really. I talk with the counselor for an hour to get things off my chest, but then I go home and everything is more or less the same. But I continue to see the counselor because it's a relief to just talk. He makes suggestions, but I think my problem is too complicated to resolve in a few sessions (I think I have avoidant personality disorder). Actually, today I began rotations. I am skeptical that I will get closer to the classmates I rotate with because I think everyone wants to try their best and potentially get honors (i.e. everyone is more competitive); therefore, they will be less friendly or willing to help (right?). I am hoping rotations will keep me so busy, I will not have time to become full-blown depressed.
 
Relax, Jay Leno.

OP, I believe that many med students feel similarly, given the fact that most of their classmates are focused, disinterested in close friendships, and are there to learn and, usually, to leave the area after graduation and begin their lives elsewhere.

I will say this: You'll become very close with the people on your rotations, even if you don't act particularly interested in them nor put forth much effort to get to know them. You spend 12 months of 12-hour days with them, and it's highly unlikely that you'll continue to feel so alone.


This is true to an extent because unlike 1st and 2nd year, you are spending a very limited time alone. It will actually feel good when you get home and get a couple of hours to your self. You will have an average of 5 hours a night to relax, study and do whatever you enjoy before going to sleep. That time disappears a lot faster than you'd like it to. Also, if you are a little sociable, you'll make small talk with residents, nurses and other students throughout the day, enough to keep you from feeling lonely.

With all that said, if you identify with 5/9 of the SIG E CAPS symptoms, seek help immediately. Third year is a wonderful experience, and it would be a shame for you to miss out because of depression.

Best of luck!
 
I think it's hard to have great social support in medical school especially if you're away from home. But you get to know people very well when you are on your third year rotations. Also, rotations can be amazing. You just have to train yourself to look at things positively, although it can be really hard. For example, if you just got yelled at for doing something wrong. It's okay - you did it wrong because you're a medical student and others might be so busy that the first thing they will do is yell. But you just have to get yourself to see past that. At some point during your year someone will tell you you are doing something wrong. But that is part of training - to know what to do better. Think about it like this - if no one tells you what you're doing wrong or you're not doing enough when you really coudl be doing better, the money you're spending will be a waste of your time.

Then again, there are idiots you meet who put you down when you know you know there isn't any reason for it. People in medicine are human like in any other field. At the end of the day, I think it's important to realize that you're not there for others to really like you, or to be friends with the attendings / residents you rotate with. You are there to learn. So if you're learning, that's what matters. If someone treats you badly and makes you feel uncomfortable, talk to your course coordinator.

Third year is ENTIRELY about perspective on a situation. I've been through rotations that I've loved and met people who did the same rotation and hated it. And I couldn't understand why, except perhaps it was a difference in attitude? If you go in with the most positive perceptions / attitude possible, you'll end up getting more out of the rotation. If there is something you don't like about a rotation, don't give yourself time to complain becuase it solves nothing and just makes you more frustrated. Either DO something yourself or talk to a resident / attending about how you can get more out of the rotation.

Finally, don't forget about your friends and family. You get so wrapped up in third year in some shape or form, that you forget about the people around you. Make it a point to call people regularly, hang out with friends, go to church / temple. Go to the gym and do things outside of medical school. You have more time third year than you might think.
 
I can relate because I am taking step 1 here in a few weeks and am starting rotations in June. The stress can be unbearable at times, it's difficult to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I've heard scary things from MS-III & MS-IV's, but I think you really have to look at it as advice and "worse case scenarios" rather than end all be all statements. From what I've heard, most students enjoy rotations more than the first two years, so naturally you will want to embrace the challenges. Speaking from personal experience, I am much better clinically than on tests, so I cannot WAIT to prove myself on rotations. I think it can be an exciting part of med school too because you are finally putting your clinical skills to use, instead of just practicing them on a SP. So I guess what I'm saying is, just go in with a positive attitude and willingness to learn, and you should be just fine.

I also live alone and don't have many friends in med school... mostly of my own volition, since many are gunners and I find that in itself depresses me! Even though many students are looking to get honors (I myself am trying for honors), I don't think that means they won't necessarily help you. At least, I would not hesitate to help someone!

I think another thing to realize is that everyone is different and everyone deals with stress differently. I find it better to associate myself with students who are less "gunnerish" and more in tune with taking time out to relax and enjoy life... while still doing well on rotations 🙂 Try to focus on getting through one day at a time and make sure you take time out of your day to talk to someone about what's going on. Realize that you are not perfect, you will make mistakes and your best just has to be good enough.
 
I already seek counseling. It kind of helps, but not really. I talk with the counselor for an hour to get things off my chest, but then I go home and everything is more or less the same. But I continue to see the counselor because it's a relief to just talk.

Yes, do keep seeing a counselor. At least things are status quo. I imagine things are more or less the same after counseling because your habits and commitments remain the same. Willingness and a change in commitment count for a lot in the counseling process, so until that happens, you may not see a dramatic improvement. However, that said, I imagine that your counselor is moving you in the right direction. If that is not the case, then perhaps a different therapist may be what is needed.

He makes suggestions, but I think my problem is too complicated to resolve in a few sessions (I think I have avoidant personality disorder).

Ah, I see. Personality disorders are tough (if indeed you have one). Keep working on it. It may take some time, but if your willingness is there, I'm confident that you'll find a solution. Find out what your crux is, that is, what is keeping you from getting what you want, which, I imagine, to some extent is getting close to others. Again, if your therapist isn't helping, find one that you can work with better.

Actually, today I began rotations. I am skeptical that I will get closer to the classmates I rotate with because I think everyone wants to try their best and potentially get honors (i.e. everyone is more competitive); therefore, they will be less friendly or willing to help (right?). I am hoping rotations will keep me so busy, I will not have time to become full-blown depressed.

Keeping busy does help, but don't count on it from keeping you from descending into the depths of depression. This is something that can't be swept underneath the rug for any extended period of time without consequences. If things start to get out of control, please take the time to address it. It does nobody any good to pretend a problem doesn't exist. First take care of yourself.

And while many people are competitive during rotations, many, in my experience, are still very friendly and willing to help. Of course there will be gunners, but I just ignore and stay clear of them. There are friendly people; associate with them. Don't isolate yourself. I think almost everyone is in a similar boat initially: scared, unsure, insecure, and feeling incompetent some of the time (maybe not outwardly). I know I was when I started third year and still am when I try to do something I haven't done before or go into a new environment (actually a different level of fear and excitement is coming into focus for me as I am beginning to realize that in about a year, I will be an intern somewhere). It's part of the adjustment process. Medicine is a life-long learning process, and no matter what level you are at, there is always more to learn.

Because it's a difficult time, there is a natural bond that forms between people at the same level. Dial into that. If you show interest, do your best, and have a good attitude, you will find that interns, residents, and even attending physicians are willing to help and teach you. Some may even go out of their way to mentor you. Keep at it and try to focus in on the positive. Align yourself with those who like to teach. Everyone has a lot to learn and reasonable mistakes are expected. Learn from them and don't be so critical toward yourself. Some people may be gruff, won't sugar coat things, or just plain mean, but that's the nature of the game. Learn to take things in stride. It's a tremendously steep learning curve. As you progress through third year, you'll find that your confidence will grow.
 
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I can relate because I am taking step 1 here in a few weeks and am starting rotations in June. The stress can be unbearable at times, it's difficult to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I've heard scary things from MS-III & MS-IV's, but I think you really have to look at it as advice and "worse case scenarios" rather than end all be all statements. From what I've heard, most students enjoy rotations more than the first two years, so naturally you will want to embrace the challenges. Speaking from personal experience, I am much better clinically than on tests, so I cannot WAIT to prove myself on rotations. I think it can be an exciting part of med school too because you are finally putting your clinical skills to use, instead of just practicing them on a SP. So I guess what I'm saying is, just go in with a positive attitude and willingness to learn, and you should be just fine.

I also live alone and don't have many friends in med school... mostly of my own volition, since many are gunners and I find that in itself depresses me! Even though many students are looking to get honors (I myself am trying for honors), I don't think that means they won't necessarily help you. At least, I would not hesitate to help someone!

I think another thing to realize is that everyone is different and everyone deals with stress differently. I find it better to associate myself with students who are less "gunnerish" and more in tune with taking time out to relax and enjoy life... while still doing well on rotations 🙂 Try to focus on getting through one day at a time and make sure you take time out of your day to talk to someone about what's going on. Realize that you are not perfect, you will make mistakes and your best just has to be good enough.

Thanks, I like your advice 🙂
 
Thanks, I like your advice too 🙂
Since you have completed 3rd year, what is your opinion about this: When you don't understand something, how do you know whether the question you would like to ask is appropriate? For example, "why are CHF patients sensitive to cold temperature?" I don't know if the question I want to ask is a "good" question which the preceptor would be glad to answer, or if it's question I should not ask because I can go home and research the answer. I have a lot of questions I want to ask, but I refrain and I end up appearing very quiet.
 
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Yes, do keep seeing a counselor. At least things are status quo. I imagine things are more or less the same after counseling because your habits and commitments remain the same. Willingness and a change in commitment count for a lot in the counseling process, so until that happens, you may not see a dramatic improvement. However, that said, I imagine that your counselor is moving you in the right direction. If that is not the case, then perhaps a different therapist may be what is needed.



Ah, I see. Personality disorders are tough (if indeed you have one). Keep working on it. It may take some time, but if your willingness is there, I'm confident that you'll find a solution. Find out what your crux is, that is, what is keeping you from getting what you want, which, I imagine, to some extent is getting close to others. Again, if your therapist isn't helping, find one that you can work with better.



Keeping busy does help, but don't count on it from keeping you from descending into the depths of depression. This is something that can't be swept underneath the rug for any extended period of time without consequences. If things start to get out of control, please take the time to address it. It does nobody any good to pretend a problem doesn't exist. First take care of yourself.

And while many people are competitive during rotations, many, in my experience, are still very friendly and willing to help. Of course there will be gunners, but I just ignore and stay clear of them. There are friendly people; associate with them. Don't isolate yourself. I think almost everyone is in a similar boat initially: scared, unsure, insecure, and feeling incompetent some of the time (maybe not outwardly). I know I was when I started third year and still am when I try to do something I haven't done before or go into a new environment (actually a different level of fear and excitement is coming into focus for me as I am beginning to realize that in about a year, I will be an intern somewhere). It's part of the adjustment process. Medicine is a life-long learning process, and no matter what level you are at, there is always more to learn.

Because it's a difficult time, there is a natural bond that forms between people at the same level. Dial into that. If you show interest, do your best, and have a good attitude, you will find that interns, residents, and even attending physicians are willing to help and teach you. Some may even go out of their way to mentor you. Keep at it and try to focus in on the positive. Align yourself with those who like to teach. Everyone has a lot to learn and reasonable mistakes are expected. Learn from them and don't be so critical toward yourself. Some people may be gruff, won't sugar coat things, or just plain mean, but that's the nature of the game. Learn to take things in stride. It's a tremendously steep learning curve. As you progress through third year, you'll find that your confidence will grow.

whoops, pressed the wrong button. Post #15 is for you.
 
OP - Relax.....let's not borrow trouble.....

Remember that Q&A sessions from upperclassmen have a certain amount of 'stud-up' factor that there is no way to assess.....You know, the classic,"In my day we had to walk uphill, barefoot,in the snow, both ways to school in July' type of deal.....

Yes, third year is a challenge, but the key is, once again, time management.
Most interns/residents know you have shelf exams coming, most are cool about giving you light duty a few days before the shelf to study.

The transition is especially difficult during the first few weeks, so be prepared for it. Realize you're looking at anywhere from 10-12 hours in the hospital with LOTS of standing around time and then you're expected to study about 2 hours a night (at least what we were told - the ever helpful,"Study something, anything related to the clerkship for two hours a night and you'll be fine'). Wash, rinse, repeat. Weekends and holidays are not your own, clerkship intensity varies both with clerkship and with attending/hospital.
I found medicine,surgery,ob to be some of the worst with family, psych and peds to be some of the least time intensives.

In terms of what to study - Case Files and Pre-Test are good sources. I could do a vignette in Case Files in twenty minutes which turns out to be 3 an hour. Get six done a night on average and you're through the book a few times before the shelf. Pre-Test is a coat pocket type of deal for when you're standing around and need short study topics quickly.

I whined like a small child my first month, which was medicine by the way. I was in a similar situation in terms of living away from family and having to study so much that I didn't get to know my classmates real well....wound up making some good friends along the way 3rd year. Shared pain and misery have a way to making people of diverse backgrounds bond together....ask the guys on the SEAL teams....

Seriously, it's not that bad....just DON'T give up on yourself or quit.....

As others have stated, you may want to touch base with your school's EAP program (free counseling type of deal to talk through situations).....

Hang in there...
 
Thanks, I like your advice too 🙂
Since you have completed 3rd year, what is your opinion about this: When you don't understand something, how do you know whether the question you would like to ask is appropriate? For example, "why are CHF patients sensitive to cold temperature?" I don't know if the question I want to ask is a "good" question which the preceptor would be glad to answer, or if it's question I should not ask because I can go home and research the answer. I have a lot of questions I want to ask, but I refrain and I end up appearing very quiet.

That's an excellent question, but a hard one to answer. I think this is something you have to feel out with your preceptor, because each one has a different personality. It comes down to trusting your common sense, trusting your judgment. Some are very open to questions and you will feel free to ask anything, while others will get very annoyed and think your questions are petty, especially if it's an awkward time. Try to use common sense and assess if it's a good time. You can usually tell if an attending physician is open to your questions. Often, you can figure this out when you are discussing a particular patient, or they might ask you if you have any questions. That's your cue to ask what's on your mind.

In general, there are no "bad" questions, as long as you ask an informed one, but be judicious, especially when asking an attending. When you ask something, make sure you learn the topic as much as possible and know your patient. How you frame the question may be give you different answers. Expect to get pimped on the subject or the patient (if I asked something related to CHF, I better know a lot about CHF and that patient with CHF). The answer may be, "go look it up," or "What do you think, Doctor?" If you make an effort, it will be rewarded usually, although not necessarily right away. You should be fine as long as you avoid bombarding your attending. Don't ask questions you can look up (this is common sense), or you will most certainly get pimped. Instead, try looking it up first and if you can't find the answer, then ask. Ideally, you should be reading about your patients when you can. When you are well-informed, your questions will likely be good questions.

As a general rule of thumb, I try not to ask up the chain, especially without first attempting to look it up and figuring out the answer myself (there is time to do this during the day, believe it or not). After you tried and can't come up with the answer, learn as much as you can about the subject (or if you have already read up on the subject) and ask a resident on your team before asking an attending. Remember who you are asking your question to. If it's an attending, it's probably best not to ask basic things. It may be more beneficial to ask questions that would benefit from his years of experience. If your common sense says that it is something you can look up, try looking it up first before asking.

Remaining absolutely silent, especially when you don't understand something, won't serve you too well, I think. Most people will just take your silence as understanding. If you do have a burning question or you simply don't understand, then just ask. Ask in the most informed way possible, based on what you know. The worst that will happen is that you will get an unfavorable response and then you can adjust accordingly. The responsive will tell you a lot, particularly revealing any real deficiencies or lack of understanding you still have. It's a learning experience after all.

I'm sorry, that's the best I can do. Honestly, I never thought much of it. I just tried to know as much about the patient and the subject, before asking something, so I could ask an informed question. Everything had a natural flow, because we were usually discussing the patient as a team. My questions to attending physicians these days are related to his approach, workup, or management of a given patient, especially if it's non-standard, not basic knowledge type stuff (unless it differed from what I read in standard texts and I want to understand his reasoning). I tend to ask attending physicians why or how he chose a particular diagnosis out of a differential, especially if it is not obvious to me or my initial assessment was different, so I can learn from his experience and adjust my own internal algorithm. When I get pimped, I may ask follow up questions, especially if I get the answer wrong.

I don't know if my answer helps you at all. I'm having a hard time breaking this down, I guess. I feel like I'm just rambling. What do the senior residents and attendings think?
 
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I've personally greatly enjoyed third year. Main parts of success are 1) time management 2) learning to accept that you will feel lost and or stupid 75% of the time, just get comfy with that 3) remaining upbeat even when it doesn't jive with your inner monologue, no one wants to know that their service is slowly draining your will to live (and some just will) 4) remember that in a few short weeks you'll be with new attendings/residents/classmates 5) never take a mean upper level personally, their misery has nothing to do with you if you're showing up and trying your best.
 
MS3 was pretty fun, you might hate a few months here and there. But hey, at most your going to be in the same rotation 4 to 6 weeks. Its infinitely better than sitting in a class room all day.
 
3rd year rotations are starting very soon. The MS4's had a Q&A for us, and emphasized that 3rd year is a very very difficult and stressful year, and social support is crucial. My social support is almost nonexistent. About 90% of my class are like strangers to me, and although I have made a few friends, I consider them more as close acquaintances. I have one friend whom I feel the closest to, but I have doubts about our friendship; sometimes I feel like she mostly asks me about school-related stuff that she is confused about...deadlines, requirements, etc whenever she talks to me. It doesn't feel like a real friendship. To make matters worse, I live alone. I tried living with someone, but it didn't work out. I always look forward to vacation so I can leave town and go home to family. When break is over and I return to school, I get this dreadful panicked feeling. Sometimes I just want to cry (and I do). When rotations begin and I am sad, I will have to hide my feelings and put on a happy, eager-to-learn face...this will be very challenging to do. I am worried I will become depressed and it will affect my performance on wards. I don't know how I can survive 1 year of stress, lack of support, loneliness, feelings of incompetency, etc. Can anyone relate to me? Have words of advice? I really appreciate your help.




I think you're on the socially phobic side, which often has associated depression. The good news is that from the sounds of it, you're not anti-social or a-social, which is good because those kinds of personalities cannot be corrected. 3rd year can be challenging, you will definitely be forced to interact more. What I will say is this: the easiest people to interact with will be your patients....Because you're in the authority role in that relationship. So learn to enjoy and take pride in the interactions you have with patients. If you can accomplish that, you'll gain a lot of self confidence, which will help you out in terms of the other interactions you will have to have on the wards. 3rd year could actually be a great time for someone like you, as a life altering kind of experience. If you can learn to take pride in it, those long hours could be really enjoyable. And if nothing else the wards force you to be more active, which is kind of curative as far as depression.
 
That's an excellent question, but a hard one to answer. I think this is something you have to feel out with your preceptor, because each one has a different personality. It comes down to trusting your common sense, trusting your judgment. Some are very open to questions and you will feel free to ask anything, while others will get very annoyed and think your questions are petty, especially if it's an awkward time. Try to use common sense and assess if it's a good time. You can usually tell if an attending physician is open to your questions. Often, you can figure this out when you are discussing a particular patient, or they might ask you if you have any questions. That's your cue to ask what's on your mind.

In general, there are no "bad" questions, as long as you ask an informed one, but be judicious, especially when asking an attending. When you ask something, make sure you learn the topic as much as possible and know your patient. How you frame the question may be give you different answers. Expect to get pimped on the subject or the patient (if I asked something related to CHF, I better know a lot about CHF and that patient with CHF). The answer may be, "go look it up," or "What do you think, Doctor?" If you make an effort, it will be rewarded usually, although not necessarily right away. You should be fine as long as you avoid bombarding your attending. Don't ask questions you can look up (this is common sense), or you will most certainly get pimped. Instead, try looking it up first and if you can't find the answer, then ask. Ideally, you should be reading about your patients when you can. When you are well-informed, your questions will likely be good questions.

As a general rule of thumb, I try not to ask up the chain, especially without first attempting to look it up and figuring out the answer myself (there is time to do this during the day, believe it or not). After you tried and can't come up with the answer, learn as much as you can about the subject (or if you have already read up on the subject) and ask a resident on your team before asking an attending. Remember who you are asking your question to. If it's an attending, it's probably best not to ask basic things. It may be more beneficial to ask questions that would benefit from his years of experience. If your common sense says that it is something you can look up, try looking it up first before asking.

Remaining absolutely silent, especially when you don't understand something, won't serve you too well, I think. Most people will just take your silence as understanding. If you do have a burning question or you simply don't understand, then just ask. Ask in the most informed way possible, based on what you know. The worst that will happen is that you will get an unfavorable response and then you can adjust accordingly. The responsive will tell you a lot, particularly revealing any real deficiencies or lack of understanding you still have. It's a learning experience after all.

I'm sorry, that's the best I can do. Honestly, I never thought much of it. I just tried to know as much about the patient and the subject, before asking something, so I could ask an informed question. Everything had a natural flow, because we were usually discussing the patient as a team. My questions to attending physicians these days are related to his approach, workup, or management of a given patient, especially if it's non-standard, not basic knowledge type stuff (unless it differed from what I read in standard texts and I want to understand his reasoning). I tend to ask attending physicians why or how he chose a particular diagnosis out of a differential, especially if it is not obvious to me or my initial assessment was different, so I can learn from his experience and adjust my own internal algorithm. When I get pimped, I may ask follow up questions, especially if I get the answer wrong.

I don't know if my answer helps you at all. I'm having a hard time breaking this down, I guess. I feel like I'm just rambling. What do the senior residents and attendings think?

Yes, you were rambling 😀

First, I believe that you MUST ask some questions to seem interested and engaged.

Second, your questions should be more focused on the art of medicine and not so much the science. If you ask an attending why the BUN is elevated in a patient with a GI bleed, you're gonna look like an idiot. But if you ask why an attending why he decided to double one oral diabetic medicine rather than another, you'll look interested.

I know the difference is subtle. But the bottom line is as follows:

If you can find the information in a text book, you should never ask it.

If you can find the answer by reading a meta-analysis on Pubmed, you probably shouldn't have asked it.

If your resident was smart enough to answer it, you should never have asked the attending.

If you're asking a very specific question within a certain field -- e.g. asking an OB-GYN why one forceps is preferred over another, you shouldn't have asked it.
 
I've personally greatly enjoyed third year. Main parts of success are 1) time management 2) learning to accept that you will feel lost and or stupid 75% of the time, just get comfy with that 3) remaining upbeat even when it doesn't jive with your inner monologue, no one wants to know that their service is slowly draining your will to live (and some just will) 4) remember that in a few short weeks you'll be with new attendings/residents/classmates 5) never take a mean upper level personally, their misery has nothing to do with you if you're showing up and trying your best.

So from bottom to top

(5) Your residents and attendings took their personal problems out on you even though you did nothing wrong
(4) Each group of attendings/residents/classmates left you counting down the days until the next group
(3) Your mind and body were constantly telling you that you hated 3rd year and you needed to fake being upbeat anyway.
(2) You felt constantly lost and stupid
(1) You needed to carefully prioritize to even be able to eat and sleep
(Intro) And you had a great time! :laugh:
 
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I don't understand the advice your seniors gave you. I have 4 weeks of MS3 left and I enjoyed it 10000000000X more than the first two years of medical school. The hours blow at times, working weekends blows, but overall, it's fun. The only piece of advice I would give any rising MS3 is: DON'T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONAL. If you an attending makes you feel stupid, it's okay...he made the MS3 on the previous rotation feel stupid, and the one coming after you is soon to feel stupid. Peoples' personalities are what they are and you have nothing to do with it. If someone is out to make every MS3 feel ******ed, there is nothing you can do to change that. Just laugh it off. No matter what, your rotation ends soon enough and it's on to the next one. You really have to convince yourself that no one really cares what you think nor what you write in your notes. Acknowledge, accept, and get over the fact that you will wake up at stupid hours in the AM to write 5 notes that no one will ever even glance at except for yourself. That really is all you need to know. Not much is expected from medical students. And if you disagree, you are only kidding yourself.
 
Yes, you were rambling 😀

First, I believe that you MUST ask some questions to seem interested and engaged.

Second, your questions should be more focused on the art of medicine and not so much the science. If you ask an attending why the BUN is elevated in a patient with a GI bleed, you're gonna look like an idiot. But if you ask why an attending why he decided to double one oral diabetic medicine rather than another, you'll look interested.

I know the difference is subtle. But the bottom line is as follows:

If you can find the information in a text book, you should never ask it.

If you can find the answer by reading a meta-analysis on Pubmed, you probably shouldn't have asked it.

If your resident was smart enough to answer it, you should never have asked the attending.

If you're asking a very specific question within a certain field -- e.g. asking an OB-GYN why one forceps is preferred over another, you shouldn't have asked it.

In theory you are right. In practice this is a crock of nonsense. If I have a question that I feel is not too dumb to ask, I will ask it. Even if I know it's in Case Files. I don't walk around the wards with three books in my pockets and sometimes on rounds or when I'm just shootin it with the residents and I have a question, I will ask. No one has ever told me that I am asking stupid questions or that I shouldn't have asked something. You will get the occasional "well, why don't you look it up and let me know", but that is generally a function of the attending's personality and is independent of the question asked.

Medical students irritate the crap out of me. Why do we feel like everything has to be so anal? Why are there threads on why kind of bookbags should an MS2 use or what kind of shoes are best for MS3. I mean seriously? If you have a damn question, ask it.
 
So from bottom to top

(5) Your residents and attendings took their personal problems out on you even though you did nothing wrong
(4) Each group of attendings/residents/classmates left you counting down the days until the next group
(3) Your mind and body were constantly telling you that you hated 3rd year and you needed to fake being upbeat anyway.
(2) You felt constantly lost and stupid
(1) You needed to carefully prioritize to even be able to eat and sleep
(Intro) And you had a great time! :laugh:

In general my residents and attendings were really great with a few bad eggs along the way. For those rotations that sucked I realized it was only a few weeks until I switched again and chances are I'd get a good team next so that helped me not become depressed about it. When I was on those rotations that sucked I did have an awful inner monologue and the way I still got good evals was by not vocalizing that inner monologue. Again most of my rotations I really enjoyed. I did constantly feel out of my element because we were constantly switching hospitals or specialties, but once I accepted that it was normal to feel that way I stopped stressing about it. So yes in general I had an awesome time. The bad times were completely manageable without becoming depressed by the actions above.
 
So from bottom to top

(5) Your residents and attendings took their personal problems out on you even though you did nothing wrong
(4) Each group of attendings/residents/classmates left you counting down the days until the next group
(3) Your mind and body were constantly telling you that you hated 3rd year and you needed to fake being upbeat anyway.
(2) You felt constantly lost and stupid
(1) You needed to carefully prioritize to even be able to eat and sleep
(Intro) And you had a great time! :laugh:

You're right.
After a couple of months of trying to figure myself out, I realize I never had a strong interest in medicine. I decided to go to med school because I was naive enough to think that yes, I will have to work hard but it will be cool to diagnose and treat. Now I know I made the wrong decision and it's too late. I hate reading papers, I hate learning medicine. Nothing interests me any longer, yet I have to pretend to be interested to deceive my evaluators in hopes of an average evaluation. I am looking forward to graduating so I can finally earn some $. If I had a backup plan, I might strongly consider quitting. I dug myself a deep hole. If only I had done poorly in college or on the MCAT. FML
 
Third year is a very funny year - certain rotations make you think nothing other than medicine will make you happy, but other rotations make you wonder why the hell you went to medical school. Unfortunately a lot of third year can be extremely random. You really have to open yourself up to each experience. You'll probably end up doing something in a few weeks, realize you love it and wonder why you felt this way now.

My advice to you is to really sit and think about this. I kinda felt this way last year, but mostly because I had a lot of other things going on, which probably jaded me to the point of wondering WTF i was doing in medical school. Do you feel like you're handling things okay or is med school becoming overwhelming? Taking time to talk to an advisor or therapist might not be a bad idea if you feel like this stress is taking away from your interest in medical school.
 
Not that it will make you feel any better, but I feel 100% the same way as you. Misery loves company right?

I wish I didn't go to medical school now. I really liked the first two years, but truth is I have no interest in learning practical medicine. I really despise clinical work and dealing with patients. For the life of me I can't interact with them in the supportive, comforting and friendly manner I'm supposed to. I couldn't have imagined in the begining how terrible third year would be.

I think medicine is just not for us isolated/miserable types. Now my only goal is to be a pathologist or radiologist and make some cash w/o having to touch/see patients. Only 2-3 more years of misery then off into residency.

As for seeing a therapist or psychiatrist, from my personal experience: Therapists utilize stupid mind tricks that only work on the weak minded. Antidepressants do (temporarily) make you happier, but they really aren't any different from cocaine or any other drugs. They alter your perception of reality but don't change actual reality and when you come back down you'll come down hard.

Just grind through this crap man, cash money is the only thing to look forward to. Hope it all works out for you though.
 
To the poster of the above post, With all due respect, I'm not advocating seeing a shrink or taking antidepressants because I have no personal experience to offer on that stuff. But I can say that seeing the RIGHT therapist can help. Maybe it was my own magical wonderful experience, but spending a year with my therapist helped me realize why the hell I was in medical school, and it was not for kissing ass or getting good rec letters. It was for the sense of accomplishment of helping people in a way that VERY FEW other occupations can really do. No point in taking personal gripes on SDN, but if you think I"m weak-minded for going to a therapist, you've got another thing coming. Buddy, you don't know what the hell I've been through in my life and going to a therapist helped me put things together after 10 years of suffering.

As to the author of this thread, the fact that nothing interests you anymore is clearly anhedonia, unelss you woke up one morning and thought that going to med school was a good idea for whatever reason and for whatever reason it's not now . The fact that you spent time to apply, worked your ass off on MCATs and the like probably means there's some basis to why you want to be a doctor. It seems like it's at the point where it's difficult for you to see past your frustrations, which can happen when you're depressed. Taking time to dig out why you feel this way is important. Don't just keep on digging yourself into a deeper hole because you're just going to be more resentful and unhappy. It's important to have a good reason to why you want to go into medicine. There can be some very difficult moments in medicine, whether that's medical school, residency or your career as an attending. Unless you understand WHY you're feeling this way, you're gonna be more and more jaded. There's NOTHING wrong with swallowing your pride and accepting that there's something wrong and getting help might not be a bad idea. Unless you deal with these things, it's NOT going to get better. Problems just don't go away.
 
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As with one of the above posters, if you need to talk, please please please shoot me an email at [email protected]. Don't listen to idiots on this thread who tell you that feeling miserable is okay because it's not. You deserve to be happy 🙂
 
You're right.
After a couple of months of trying to figure myself out, I realize I never had a strong interest in medicine. I decided to go to med school because I was naive enough to think that yes, I will have to work hard but it will be cool to diagnose and treat. Now I know I made the wrong decision and it's too late. I hate reading papers, I hate learning medicine. Nothing interests me any longer, yet I have to pretend to be interested to deceive my evaluators in hopes of an average evaluation. I am looking forward to graduating so I can finally earn some $. If I had a backup plan, I might strongly consider quitting. I dug myself a deep hole. If only I had done poorly in college or on the MCAT. FML

I am not generally one to push optimism, but I think you might confusing your hatred of a stupid and abusive system of education with a hatred of your career. At the very least I don't think you can know how you really feel until you get into some relatively sane 4th year rotations and have time to sort out how you feel about medicine while you're dealing with a more reasonable enviornment. Medicine is a good job and I strongly suspect you will ultimately enjoy both the primary and secondary gain associated with being a board certified residency complete physician, at least as much as anyone enjoys their job. You just need to keep in mind that 3rd year (and residency, further down the road) is something that you get through, not something that you enjoy. A few years of unpleasantness is not that much in the long run. Also if you're really despressed I do recommend seeing a shrink and considering meds. Trying to live your life in 3rd year is like trying to walk with a broken ankle. The intelligent decision is to find someone to lean on.

Medical student stages of 3rd year:

1) Denial: 'I'm loving every minute of 3rd year, my random fits of anger/crying don't mean anything'

2) Bargaining: 'I will now do the following (hundreds of) thing(s) to become a better medical student, and THEN I will love every minute of 3rd year'

3)Anger: That F-ing (student/intern/attending/scrub nurse/janitor played by Neil Flynn) is ruining what would otherwise be a great 3rd year! I wish something horrible would happen to him so that I could love every moment of 3rd year

4) Depression: I don't love 3rd year, I don't love anything. I don't even like anything. I am made equally miserable by scut and puppies, call and rainbows.

5) Acceptance: 3rd year sucks because it sucks. I will get through it, and then I will get through intern year, and then I will cruise through the rest of residency and, work as a hospitalist, and live a good life with great job security.
 
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It sounds like you are lonely, you want friends, and you are close to your family. Sometimes group therapy is very helpful as it helps you with forming relationships. Some people do not know how to initiate conversations. There are some good books and websites on that. Initiating conversations can help. Agree with the person who suggested exercise. I rode my bike to all my rotations unless there was ice on the street. It definitely helped with my sanity. Do you belong to a church, synagogue, bowling league, volunteer organization? Do they have any activities done in small groups? Are there any recreational softball or volleyball leagues run by the city recreation department in your city? Being on a rec team is lots of fun and a good way to meet people and form friendships. And believe me, you do not need to be coordinated. Especially if the city runs more than one level of the league. Local YMCA's, etc. are also good sources of activities where you can socialize. Good luck
 
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