How would you run a clinic?

[Golden10]

Increasing job satisfaction involves far more than just $$$. Empowerment, investment, training, discounts, ability to grow/learn/develop, etc. There are really great studies out on this, have you read veterinary economics? There's another magazine written for techs with great suggestions on how they can take an active role in increasing their income. I agree that techs need to be paid reasonably for the work they are doing, I even, as I have now stated 3 times, believe in incentive programs when the contributions of the techs are beyond the jobs they are being paid to do and/or generate higher profit for the practice.

Agreed

I really don't know many folks that aren't living paycheck to paycheck, particularly when you look at vets paying over $100,000 back in debt, and in this economy.

I think as long as you are wise with your finances you should not have to live paycheck to paycheck. Less then half of working people (42%) of working folk are living that way, and I am sure a large chunk of that is young people just out of college or part time workers who are still in school.

Since 58% of workers are making minimum wage... http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2010.htm
and half of that 58% are folks who are under 25.

So you not knowing many people who are not living this way may be because you are young and most of the people you know are young? Just a thought, it may not be true at all.

All of the vets I have known seem to be doing just fine financially, except the ones right out of school of course

Additionally, there is a point where a clinic has more than enough business to be very very busy (particularly on an insane day where a HBC and heat stroke animal are brought itn and your best client's favorite stud breaks a bone being foolish) but do not make enough to support a second vet or even an additional tech. That is a tough spot for a clinic to be in because no one wants to turn away clients, but you can destroy the business inside and out by adding staff if you do not actually have enough business to bridge that gap. Growing pains. Additionally, adding additional staff won't deal with space shortages, and if the owner needs to fold money into expanding space to support additional staff..... well, where is that money likely to come from? They have to decide between growth and incentives for current staff.

But you said "Because, as folks are pointing out, money motivates. At least the practices I have worked at have been very, very busy. " in your last post.

It makes it seem like you are ALWAYS very very busy. You didn't say some days are just like that. So that's what I assumed...

I don't know about other schools, but here we are required to take at least 2 intensive weeks of (8 hours/day) class in business. We also have a very active VBMA, many of us attend the Wolfpack Leadership Conference that is only about vet med. AAHA is working on offering a weekend seminar on finding mentors in the field, growing business for the practice you are in, and a resume evaluation workshop. There are also other selectives that are very popular about client communication. We do have a joint MBA program as well.

Sounds great! BTW I love your user name. Rain storms are seriously my favorite thing ever! Ok back to business lol

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[breenie]

$1 AUS =/= $1 US, so you can't really make the comparison you just made. 10 years ago when I was in Australia, I think I could buy something in an Australian dollar, and it would equal to about 0.66 US dollars (cut me some slack on exact numbers, I was like 12 or 13). That has changed, but back then things were of similar prices (I wasn't buying houses at that age), so often it was cheaper to get some things there. Not everything. But it's not a simple comparison. They have regional variations just like we do. A $200,000 house is not a mansion in DC, but it might be in rural Arkansas.

Also sumstorm is old. Like dirt.

(eta: I like sumstorm. I don't actually think she's like dirt.)

 

[Golden10]

$1 AUS =/= $1 US, so you can't really make the comparison you just made. 10 years ago when I was in Australia, I think I could buy something in an Australian dollar, and it would equal to about 0.66 US dollars (cut me some slack on exact numbers, I was like 12 or 13). That has changed, but back then things were of similar prices (I wasn't buying houses at that age), so often it was cheaper to get some things there. Not everything. But it's not a simple comparison. They have regional variations just like we do. A $200,000 house is not a mansion in DC, but it might be in rural Arkansas.

Also sumstorm is old. Like dirt.

I was in Australia about a year ago and I thought things were extremely pricey. My Australian friends would laugh at me for ordering off the kids menu because I could just not bring myself to buy a 20$ meal (which is average there!!)

But I think you can't compare dollar amounts when the cost of living is so different... And if you don't like the house example what about the minimum wage example?

Look at these numbers... http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Australia

How much do you pay for a little bottle of soda? 1$-1.50$ maybe? In Australia its around 3$.

I don't know where you live but a one bedroom apartment in Australia is 1,500 a month! And this is just the average of everywhere, cheap apartments + expensive ones.

In DC (since you mentioned it) according to this website its half of that (700-850$)
http://www.discoverabroad.com/us/livingabroad/housing/apartmentmore.htm

And from what you are implying DC is one of the more pricey places to live.

Basically, its true. One dollar in Australia equals around one dollar in US. BUTTTTT the WORTH of that dollar is not nearly the same.

BTW.... Australia sushi is like 1-2 dollars a roll and OMG ITS SOOOOO GOODDD. I ate it like everyday. Here its like 5$ a roll! Best part of Australia. But then again we have to fly in our fish. It seems like all the major cities are right on the ocean there!

 

[August West]

I was in Australia about a year ago and I thought things were extremely pricey. My Australian friends would laugh at me for ordering off the kids menu because I could just not bring myself to buy a 20$ meal (which is average there!!)

But I think you can't compare dollar amounts when the cost of living is so different... And if you don't like the house example what about the minimum wage example?

Look at these numbers... http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Australia

How much do you pay for a little bottle of soda? 1$-1.50$ maybe? In Australia its around 3$.

I don't know where you live but a one bedroom apartment in Australia is 1,500 a month! And this is just the average of everywhere, cheap apartments + expensive ones.

In DC (since you mentioned it) according to this website its half of that (700-850$)
http://www.discoverabroad.com/us/livingabroad/housing/apartmentmore.htm

And from what you are implying DC is one of the more pricey places to live.

Basically, its true. One dollar in Australia equals around one dollar in US. BUTTTTT the WORTH of that dollar is not nearly the same.

BTW.... Australia sushi is like 1-2 dollars a roll and OMG ITS SOOOOO GOODDD. I ate it like everyday. Here its like 5$ a roll! Best part of Australia. But then again we have to fly in our fish. It seems like all the major cities are right on the ocean there!

Be careful when speaking of the US as economically homogenous. What you experience and witness in your neck of woods will most likely be vastly different from out here in Los Angeles – or Oklahoma, or New York or wherever. This board represents many different regions. And it's nearly impossible to find sushi rolls for 5 bucks in Los Angeles. Maybe California rolls... and mansions cost millions.

 

[Golden10]

Be careful when speaking of the US as economically homogenous. What you experience and witness in your neck of woods will most likely be vastly different from out here in Los Angeles – or Oklahoma, or New York or wherever. This board represents many different regions. And it's nearly impossible to find sushi rolls for 5 bucks in Los Angeles. Maybe California rolls... and mansions cost millions.

That's why I was looking at websites for AVERAGES over the whole country to compare the two.

I am sure that Australia has regions that are more expensive then others just like America which is why I wanted a overall comparison.

And sushi is an exception. Thank god.

Also, notice on that one website the price for the AVERAGE apartment in California (which by far is our most expensive state in terms of cost of living)... It is under average cost of a apartment for the entire country of Australia. So one of our most expensive cities= average rent in Australia.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Australia

Another website.

 

[breenie]

I was in Australia about a year ago and I thought things were extremely pricey. My Australian friends would laugh at me for ordering off the kids menu because I could just not bring myself to buy a 20$ meal (which is average there!!)

But I think you can't compare dollar amounts when the cost of living is so different... And if you don't like the house example what about the minimum wage example?

Look at these numbers... http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Australia

How much do you pay for a little bottle of soda? 1$-1.50$ maybe? In Australia its around 3$.

I don't know where you live but a one bedroom apartment in Australia is 1,500 a month! And this is just the average of everywhere, cheap apartments + expensive ones.

In DC (since you mentioned it) according to this website its half of that (700-850$)
http://www.discoverabroad.com/us/livingabroad/housing/apartmentmore.htm

And from what you are implying DC is one of the more pricey places to live.

Basically, its true. One dollar in Australia equals around one dollar in US. BUTTTTT the WORTH of that dollar is not nearly the same.

BTW.... Australia sushi is like 1-2 dollars a roll and OMG ITS SOOOOO GOODDD. I ate it like everyday. Here its like 5$ a roll! Best part of Australia. But then again we have to fly in our fish. It seems like all the major cities are right on the ocean there!

My point with the DC vs. Arkansas example was city vs. rural, not "DC is representative of everywhere and an insanely expensive price to live." Would have you preferred I pick San Francisco? Fine. San Francisco.

My overall point is that yes the dollar values are different, but the exchange rate also varies. Back in the day, your US dollar got you farther. Not so much right now, but this is a fairly recent thing. The value of your dollar changes based on cost of living, region, AND currency. I don't think you can make a straight comparison between Golden's $250 dental and Sunshine's $500 dental.

And since we're throwing completely irrelevant facts in here, I don't drink soda.

 

[Golden10]

My point with the DC vs. Arkansas example was city vs. rural, not "DC is representative of everywhere and an insanely expensive price to live." Would have you preferred I pick San Francisco? Fine. San Francisco.

My overall point is that yes the dollar values are different, but the exchange rate also varies. Back in the day, your US dollar got you farther. Not so much right now, but this is a fairly recent thing. The value of your dollar changes based on cost of living, region, AND currency. I don't think you can make a straight comparison between Golden's $250 dental and Sunshine's $500 dental.

And since we're throwing completely irrelevant facts in here, I don't drink soda.

But why are we comparing prices from 10 years ago? Little confused. I get what your saying that a while ago they were about the same but what does that have to do with now? If everything in Australia is 50% more, right now, for the same product/service could you not apply it to veterinary prices as well?

Not trying to argue I just really don't understand!

 

[breenie]

But why are we comparing prices from 10 years ago? Little confused. I get what your saying that a while ago they were about the same but what does that have to do with now? If everything in Australia is 50% more, right now, for the same product/service could you not apply it to veterinary prices as well?

Not trying to argue I just really don't understand!

That was my experience with the exchange rate. I'm not saying prices for dentals 10 years ago are relevant, but the fluctuations in the exchange rate ARE. And the "dramatic" change in the exchange rate is relatively recent (last few years, hey thanks US economy), and potentially not permanent (please, US economy?). There is a lot more going on here than just $1 US dollar = $1 Australian dollar, and that's my point.

It's difficult to say that sunshine's perspective is invalid because there are SO MANY THINGS that affect the value of a service, all of which have been touched on. The exchange rate (variable) and the regional economy (very variable) both contribute to any comparison between services. I think others have noted that your valuation is only accurate for your area, really.

I don't think it's useful to pretty much ignore all of the fabulous points that sunshine brought up just because she's form Australia and you had to pay $3 for some soda when you were there.

That was my ultimate point. She made a good argument for a dental being worth $500 in any area, in any dollar.

 

[lostbunny]

Hang on one second before you start freaking out about these prices. You are from Australia correct? The cost of living in Australia is twice as much as America.

For example:

The average house price in Australia is around 500,000 dollars. http://www.aussiemove.com/costofliving/

You can get a mansion for that price here. The average American house price is 200,000 dollars. http://www.realestateabc.com/outlook/overall.htm

Additionally, the minimum wadge in Australia is 15$ an hour and in America its around 8... and in some places less.

So by just the cost of living, Australia is twice as expensive as America meaning that a 500$ dental here would be around 1000$ there.

And a 500$ dental in Australia would be around 250$ here. So basically we are talking about the same price.

Knowing this do you still have the same opinion?

Yeah the cost of living is higher, like housing and food, but other stuff is basically the same price (clothes, services, cars, etc).

Higher cost of living doesn't mean everything in Australia is double the price. The USD basically the same, so a $500 USD invoice is a $500 AUD invoice.

I think Sunshinevet brings up some really good points about where the $500 is going- are those things you would include in your dentals?

 

[lostbunny]

But why are we comparing prices from 10 years ago? Little confused. I get what your saying that a while ago they were about the same but what does that have to do with now? If everything in Australia is 50% more, right now, for the same product/service could you not apply it to veterinary prices as well?

Not trying to argue I just really don't understand!

Where are you getting this from?! This is some made up preconceived notion!?!!

And in your previous post... $18-$20 for a meal I'd say is pretty standard (comparing to Canadian prices) and I had a steak last week for $17, thats pretty decent.

 

[Golden10]

That was my experience with the exchange rate. I'm not saying prices for dentals 10 years ago are relevant, but the fluctuations in the exchange rate ARE. And the "dramatic" change in the exchange rate is relatively recent (last few years, hey thanks US economy), and potentially not permanent (please, US economy?). There is a lot more going on here than just $1 US dollar = $1 Australian dollar, and that's my point.

It's difficult to say that sunshine's perspective is invalid because there are SO MANY THINGS that affect the value of a service, all of which have been touched on. The exchange rate (variable) and the regional economy (very variable) both contribute to any comparison between services. I think others have noted that your valuation is only accurate for your area, really.

I don't think it's useful to pretty much ignore all of the fabulous points that sunshine brought up just because she's form Australia and you had to pay $3 for some soda when you were there.

That was my ultimate point. She made a good argument for a dental being worth $500 in any area, in any dollar.

I am not basing this opinion on prices that I was charged while I was there, I am basing it off the fact that Australia's consumer price right now is 50% higher then Americas. I'm not saying that her argument is invalid I just wanted to bring up that point and see if she feels the same way. She is saying that 500$ for a dental is reasonable and I am saying you can't go off price because the worth of a dollar is different in the two countries. So are we trying to make the same point?? I never said that the Australian dollar equaled the American dollar! I was trying to make that point the whole time.

My whole original point wayyyy back at the beginning was that you should price your products on what is average is for your area. I think I even said that in my OP? If most vet clinics in your area did charge 250$ for a dental and one decided to charge 500$ do you think that its good business for them? What about if the average for a PE was 40$ and one clinic was charging 60$... I know that for all those people sumstorm mentioned who are living paycheck to paycheck would not pay this price. Maybe in your area or California they can, but I would like to bring pet care to the masses... not just people will loads of money. People charge 250$ dollars not because its some number they made up but because you need to go off by what your clients can afford. I cannot spend 1000 dollars to have my dogs teeth cleaned A YEAR. If that were the price everywhere then my dog would have to be put to sleep. I can't afford that making 8$ an hour. Even if I was working full time , that would be a month of my salary before taxes. And thats just for teeth! what about all the other meds she need and all of the doctor visits? I would be in debt if I had to pay that much. Should I not have a dog because I can't provide the best of the best for her and she may not get special monitoring when I clean her teeth?

I think sunshine vet was not happy with the whole thing because of numbers but that is not really what we are looking at here. Because the average dental where I live IS 250$ and by what she is saying that just simply is ridiculous. I just wanted to let her know that its not as crazy as is seems. And many vet clinics do pay on commission and don't charge crazy prices. And many also charge 250$ for dentals.

 

[Golden10]

Where are you getting this from?! This is some made up preconceived notion!?!!

And in your previous post... $18-$20 for a meal I'd say is pretty standard (comparing to Canadian prices) and I had a steak last week for $17, thats pretty decent.

I got it from the national consumer prices http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Australia

If you don't believe it then thats fine... but I would never pay 17 dollars for a steak even though you don't think its that bad.

 

[Minnerbelle]

If you don't believe it then thats fine... but I would never pay 17 dollars for a steak.

That pretty much sums up someone else's point that it's not just an australia vs. us problem. There are many places in the US that would not get you a steak for only $17. Heck, the last time my bf took me out to a casual non-foo foo restaurant in a high cost of living area in the US, it was $17 for a veggie ravioli. Steak was at least $25. Unless we go get "cheap eats" $15-20 is standard for the mid-range items on the menu. Something like a plain hamburger or cheese pizza might be like $12, but you get my drift.

 

[lostbunny]

I got it from the national consumer prices http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Australia

If you don't believe it then thats fine... but I would never pay 17 dollars for a steak.

Okay fair enough you wouldn't pay $17 for a steak. But I'm speaking from experience- I was born and bred in Canada, and when I came to Austraila in 2007, and it was around the time one of the Harry Potters was just released. We (my American friends and I) were in the airport and they commented that the $35 price tag on the HP was so over priced, but thats how much I paid for mine in Canada.

On another occasion, I bought Etnies skate shoes for about $90 which is what I would have paid in Canada. So I'm just trying to point out to you that yes you are right in saying the cost of living is generally higher, but not everything equates to 50% more! So a $500 vet bill in Oz doesn't equal a $250 vet bill in the usa!

Finally, I think the point that people are trying to get across, at least what I'm trying to understand from your point of view: is how you are you going to break down your dentals to $250? Sunshine vet's breakdown in what the dental entails is pretty detailed. So granted each of these things, once you tac on your surcharge, say comes to $400. How are you going to get such a cheap $250 price? Are you just going to sell everything at cost? Are you going to give the bare minimum (i.e. no blood work, no rads, minimal pain meds, etc)? If you do either of these things (as examples) you either won't be making a profit, or you'll be giving less then stellar services to clients.

So ignoring the meaningless numbers we're throwing around here, how are YOU personally going to be able to make your prices cheaper by half? What are your plans on how this is going to be achieved?:

- cheaper stock?
- less time given in the dental?
- no blood work or rads?
- magic??

 

[Golden10]

The USD basically the same, so a $500 USD invoice is a $500 AUD invoice.

Its not the same. This is the point me and breenie were trying to make. You can't compare dollar for dollar.

 

[lostbunny]

Its not the same. This is the point me and breenie were trying to make. You can't compare dollar for dollar.

I'm NOT- read the rest of my last post!

 

[Golden10]

So ignoring the meaningless numbers we're throwing around here, how are YOU personally going to be able to make your prices cheaper by half? What are your plans on how this is going to be achieved?:

- cheaper stock?
- less time given in the dental?
- no blood work or rads?
- magic??

NO NO NO NO!!!! I never said I was cutting my prices in half!!! Sorry for the frustration I think this whole thing is brought on by miscommunication.

I do NOT want to cut the price for a dental in half. I want to charge what is reasonable for that area. Take 10 vet clinics in your area, find out the price of dentals for each one, figure out the average that consumers are paying for the product, and set your price accordingly!! What I am saying is many vet clinics are not being competitive because they are simply over charging for basic services when you can go down the street and buy the same thing for less.


This is what I said in my OP "I am not saying lower the quality of medicine, just have prices set lower then the competition around you"

Set the price for routine things slightly lower, and I am not saying 50% lower, then the average in your area. So if the average for a PE was 40, charge 35. Not much of a difference but you will get more clients just by getting them to choose you over the 10 vet clinics around you. More clients = more revenue overall and it will make up for the 5$ difference.

BTW as I said before, these are just on routine things! Dentals can be done by a tech, not really a big deal to charge cheaper for that. But something like a complicated knee surgery, charge what any other vet would. Maybe higher if you are a specialist at it. But you will never get those clients in the first place if they choose the vet clinic down the street for there puppy visit instead of you, because they had a better deal on there puppy prices in comparison to yours.

I dont know about Australia but when I mean right down the street or neighbor, that is literally what I mean. Vet clinics are everywhere!!

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&r...code_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CGsQ8gEwAA

Type in vet clinic into the search bar to see what I mean. Zoom out just one and it gets crazy.

 

[lostbunny]

Okay well I feel like the circle has been sufficiently completed.

But I still feel like $5 cheaper isn't going to necessarily draw in clients like moths to flames. If a vet clinic was $5 cheaper then one closer to me, I'd probably just go to the more expensive closer one (granted all other variables are equal).


best of luck to you and your hypothetical clinic!

 

[Golden10]

Okay well I feel like the circle has been sufficiently completed.

But I still feel like $5 cheaper isn't going to necessarily draw in clients like moths to flames. If a vet clinic was $5 cheaper then one closer to me, I'd probably just go to the more expensive closer one (granted all other variables are equal).


best of luck to you and your hypothetical clinic!

Eh... it might especially if there are 10 vet clinics right next to you (did you see the map?)

And it definitively will be a good hook just to get people to walk into your clinic if they feel like they are getting "the best deal".

And I feel like the circle has been completed. I was hoping this thread would die about the time we started talking about Guy. I think I got all the information I was looking for from the OP! But it was a good discussion and I thank you for contributing.

 

[david594]

Knowing this do you still have the same opinion?

That given the cost of veterinary care in the US, a Dental done at a US practice with a reasonably high standard of care could easily cost $500?

Yup. Dont really see anything that has changed.

 

[Golden10]

That given the cost of veterinary care in the US, a Dental done at a US practice with a reasonably high standard of care could easily cost $500?

Yup. Dont really see anything that has changed.

I didn't say that it couldn't cost 500$. Just not average in my area. It is extremely overpriced for the area I live. But like we just discussed we should not be talking about actual numbers. We should be talking about whats reasonable. Can we let this thread die now? I think we have officially beat the horse enough

 

[August West]

I didn't say that it couldn't cost 500$. Just not average in my area. It is extremely overpriced for the area I live. But like we just discussed we should not be talking about actual numbers. We should be talking about whats reasonable. Can we let this thread die now? I think we have officially beat the horse enough

Wow! You guys are still arguing the price of tea in China??

Meanwhile, thousands and thousands of underpaid RVTs go without.

 

[bunnity]

The thing is, you also have to consider what you are paying for things like your dental machine, staff, mortgage, anesthesia... what if your $250 dental will lose the clinic money? What if your total cost to be open each hour is $400 (including paying all your employees, mortgage, insurance, equipment, utilities, etc), and you are doing 4 appointments per hour (standard) and making $90 per appointment (including exam fee and services) - your clinic will lose money. You either have to bump up your fees (more expensive) or fit in more clients per hour (less quality experience for each client) or cut costs (pay your tech less?). You can't just decide "this will be my price" if it will run your clinic into the ground.

There is the old saying that you can have two of the three: fast, good, and cheap. I've worked at "fast and cheap," and "good and fast" and I take my pets to "good and cheap (and slow)." I would add that you can - to a degree - be smart and get around this, but the point is that something has to give, somewhere, when you're running a business.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Wow! You guys are still arguing the price of tea in China??

Meanwhile, thousands and thousands of underpaid RVTs go without.

 

[david594]

Lets go back to the first page because I thought this statement was interesting:

How much should we be paying our vet techs because I don't feel like 14$ an hour is enough!! Should your head vet tech make more? How much more? Half of what your vets make?

$14 an hour is around half of what a starting vet makes per hour. And after you factor in the differences in educational debt of vets versus techs and their subtract their respective loan payments, their discretionary income is surprisingly similar.

 

[August West]

I just missed you...

 

[Golden10]

Lets go back to the first page because I thought this statement was interesting:



$14 an hour is around half of what a starting vet makes per hour. And after you factor in the differences in educational debt of vets versus techs and their subtract their respective loan payments, their discretionary income is surprisingly similar.

But I never said increase there salary. Just give them ways accumulate incentives to work like commission or like someone mentioned an extra bonus would be good as well.

 

[sunshinevet]

This is what I said in my OP "I am not saying lower the quality of medicine, just have prices set lower then the competition around you"

You make it sound so easy.

There are so many other factors that come into setting prices other than what other clinics in your area are charging.

But before I get into that, there was actually a thread on here where tonnes of people working in clinics and visiting clinics posted what their clinics charged for routine things. So even though I do not live or work in America, i DO have an educated opinion on what a large range of practices in different areas charge. $500 was certainly not unusual - and it certainly isn't unreasonable for the dental i described.

Which brings me to my other point.

Why isnt that dental worth $500?

As vets, one of the hardest things you will deal with is getting people to part with their money. You have already mentioned this yourself. And the easiest way to get people to do this is ACTUALLY by PROVING to them that you are WORTH that amount - NOT just charging less. By having a business model that relies on undercutting other clinics, you are essentially devaluing the work we do. Because people then think that our services are only worth what you are charging, when in fact they are worth so much more.

Your pricing should always be based around a few things.

• the area you live in
• what people are prepared to pay (on average)
• what your services are actually worth

The last one is often left out!!! Even though it is EXTREMELY important. You say you think techs should be paid more?! Then charge people for what they are worth. As a vet, I would like to charge people for what my 6 years of advanced schooling is worth - in the US its usually 8 years of advanced schooling. Pet owners SHOULD have to pay for this - we didnt make them get a pet! We need to make the majority of pet owners realise that veterinary care isnt their right - its their responsibility. It needs to be part of their budget like car insurance and maintanence and health insurance and everything else they consider important. A balance needs to be struck between these three factors - none of them can be left out. And pricing on one factor alone (what other clinics in your area are charging) is completely ridiculous.

Also its a dangerous economical plan. Its great to do low cost/high volume when your super busy and you ARE actually doing an increased amount of work. But what about when its slow and your numbers arent making up for your reduced income? Thats why low cost clinics DO cut corners. Because at the end of the day, you still have overheads (which somehow you seem to be leaving out of your costing?!) and those need to be met regardless.

Not only that but basing your pricing on the idea that people are going to shop around, as I said in my last post, has many problems (which you have failed to address). Commonly the people who shop around are the last people you actually want as clients - they are stingy even when its low cost and they tend to have low client compliance and follow up. There will be problems with finances if you go from doing something routine for their pet to something more complex and there is a massive discrepency in price/service - people are not happy with that kind of thing.

Lastly, the busiest vet I know charges $20 MORE per exam than any other vet in the area (and its a highly vet-populated area). Why is he so busy if he's so expensive? Even in a relatively low socio-economic area? Because he's damn good. And that is what will actually get you clients, at the end of the day.

But please, if you are going to address anything from this post, please address the following

• why should i undercharge for my services? How is that not doing a disservice to our profession? (which is currently moving forward at a great rate of knots in regard to practice standards)
• how are you paying for your overheads? You don't seem to be incorportating any other business factors in your pricing\
• how am i paying my nurses more while reducing my income?! I have to eat too...
• How is that dental not worth $500? Can you HONESTLY look at that and say it is not reasonable to ask for $500 for such a service? Irregardless of the area you live in? (Exactly what I wrote - not what a "routine" dental is at your clinic".

 

[Golden10]

• why should i undercharge for my services? How is that not doing a disservice to our profession? (which is currently moving forward at a great rate of knots in regard to practice standards)
• how are you paying for your overheads? You don't seem to be incorportating any other business factors in your pricing\
• how am i paying my nurses more while reducing my income?! I have to eat too...
• How is that dental not worth $500? Can you HONESTLY look at that and say it is not reasonable to ask for $500 for such a service? Irregardless of the area you live in? (Exactly what I wrote - not what a "routine" dental is at your clinic".

* Not all services should be undercharged for which I said previously. If you are going to charge for something like a general PE then why charge more then the clinics in your area if any vet can do the exact same thing? Why can't we just charge a reasonable price?
*I never said we should pay the vet techs more. I said they should get commission or like a previous poster said a bonus based on how well they did that year. Base salary = the same. If the techs are more motivated to do better it will help your bottom line.
*I can HONESTLY look at that and say I would NEVER pay that much for a dental. If I didn't have a choice, and the only way my dog was getting a dental is if I had 500$ I would seriously have to put my dog to sleep. So are you saying I should put my dog to sleep because I can't afford a 500$ dental twice a year?
*I do believe in affordable veterinary care. If you have to use different drugs/ ways of doing things then I am for it. If you have to supplement your income by selling other services like boarding or grooming services, go for it.
*I just don't think we should be talking about actual numbers here because its very confusing to a lot of people in different countries and for people who live in different economic areas.
* Things are not that simple as many people have said. A lot of factors go into a successful business not just prices ect.
* There are only a few ways you can pay your employees.

1) base pay only
2) Base pay + commission (you can pay this in a bonus at the end of the year)
3) Flat percent production
4) A hybrid or mix of the above

* I think the incentive commission program is good, but it may not be good for your clinic/ situation. That doesn't mean its a bad idea overall.

 

[August West]

* Not all services should be undercharged for which I said previously. If you are going to charge for something like a general PE then why charge more then the clinics in your area if any vet can do the exact same thing? Why can't we just charge a reasonable price?
*I never said we should pay the vet techs more. I said they should get commission or like a previous poster said a bonus based on how well they did that year. Base salary = the same. If the techs are more motivated to do better it will help your bottom line.
*I can HONESTLY look at that and say I would NEVER pay that much for a dental. If I didn't have a choice, and the only way my dog was getting a dental is if I had 500$ I would seriously have to put my dog to sleep. So are you saying I should put my dog to sleep because I can't afford a 500$ dental twice a year?
*I do believe in affordable veterinary care. If you have to use different drugs/ ways of doing things then I am for it. If you have to supplement your income by selling other services like boarding or grooming services, go for it.
*I just don't think we should be talking about actual numbers here because its very confusing to a lot of people in different countries and for people who live in different economic areas.
* Things are not that simple as many people have said. A lot of factors go into a successful business not just prices ect.
* There are only a few ways you can pay your employees.

1) base pay only
2) Base pay + commission (you can pay this in a bonus at the end of the year)
3) Flat percent production
4) A hybrid or mix of the above

* I think the incentive commission program is good, but it may not be good for your clinic/ situation. That doesn't mean its a bad idea overall.

Any thoughts on pet insurance and preventative health and wellness plans? I have been doing quite a bit of research and brainstorming on how to incorporate such funding mechanisms into my clinic ever since deciding to pursue vet met. Would you be open to such revenue-generating programs for your practice?

 

[sunshinevet]

* Not all services should be undercharged for which I said previously. If you are going to charge for something like a general PE then why charge more then the clinics in your area if any vet can do the exact same thing? Why can't we just charge a reasonable price?

Not all vets ARE doing the exact same thing in a PE. like all things in life, some people are offering something better than others - even if they call it the same thing. If I do a good PE and as part of that PE make a good bond with the client (because I do know I am exceptional at bonding with clients) to the point where they are more than happy to pay more to see me, why shouldnt I charge that? And when people phone around and discover you're cheaper, but they hear from their friend that although I charge more I'm caring and listen well and am awesome, despite the fact that your cheaper they are actually still going to come to me. Word of mouth will actually earn you more customers than being cheap. So why not cash in on being good?
ALSO this brings up one of my other points you havent addressed - how do you explain the discrepancies in your pricing to owners who require one of your services which isnt underpriced? Tell them that you're only cheap on certain things to get them in the door?

*I can HONESTLY look at that and say I would NEVER pay that much for a dental. If I didn't have a choice, and the only way my dog was getting a dental is if I had 500$ I would seriously have to put my dog to sleep. So are you saying I should put my dog to sleep because I can't afford a 500$ dental twice a year?

Wow. I can't believe that you think professional veterinary services are worth so little. That is all im going to say on that, except for if you don't value the services vet hospitals offer, how on earth are you meant to convice a client to spend money on their pets?!

*I do believe in affordable veterinary care. If you have to use different drugs/ ways of doing things then I am for it. If you have to supplement your income by selling other services like boarding or grooming services, go for it.

Your utmost goal as a veterinarian should always be to practice the highest quality medicine to the best of your abilites. Period. You will have to tailor the medicine you practice to the finances of your client - but you should always start off offering them the best, gold standard option. You basically just said you believe in cutting corners to offer lower prices. You don't use xylazine because you can't afford propofol. You raise your price to cover the costs of propofol because that is the right thing to do by the animals in your care.

I also believe in affordable health care. I worked at clinics that I do genuinely feel are ripping their clients off. I have also worked at clinics that I feel undercharge for some services. I also believe in practicing the highest standard of medicine that my clients finances will allow. I also believe that as a hard working, highly trained professional, I am entitled to charge clients adequately to pay a decent wage to myself and the people who work for me.

The sooner more veterinarians charge adequately, the sooner we can educate ALL clients of the ACTUAL cost of healthcare for their pets. THe sooner we can practice GOLD STANDARD medicine as STANDARD. The sooner vets can earn a wage commesurate to their qualifications and role in society. The longer people regard cost cutting as a business technique, the longer it holds the veterinary world back.

Also fyi, they are actively teaching us this mindset at school - to charge what we're worth. So if you do get into vet school, bear this in mind when discussing it with faculty.

 

[Golden10]

Not all vets ARE doing the exact same thing in a PE. like all things in life, some people are offering something better than others - even if they call it the same thing. If I do a good PE and as part of that PE make a good bond with the client (because I do know I am exceptional at bonding with clients) to the point where they are more than happy to pay more to see me, why shouldnt I charge that? And when people phone around and discover you're cheaper, but they hear from their friend that although I charge more I'm caring and listen well and am awesome, despite the fact that your cheaper they are actually still going to come to me. Word of mouth will actually earn you more customers than being cheap. So why not cash in on being good?
ALSO this brings up one of my other points you havent addressed - how do you explain the discrepancies in your pricing to owners who require one of your services which isnt underpriced? Tell them that you're only cheap on certain things to get them in the door?

Fair enough. Not everyone is the same I get it. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Why can't you be less priceyer and still be a good vet? There are plenty of good vets that are charging the prices that you seem to believe are absolutely awful. We all ready talked about this. Lower prices =/= bad vet. You explain the discrepancies in prices just by how anyone would explain it. Give them a list of services that we can do for there pet, then if they still can't pay, I would probably try to work something out with them.

Wow. I can't believe that you think professional veterinary services are worth so little. That is all im going to say on that, except for if you don't value the services vet hospitals offer, how on earth are you meant to convice a client to spend money on their pets?!

You should start believing it. Plenty of people charge this price. But what you failed to address is the point that we should not be talking number when it comes to talking over the internet. You do not know what the market is like in my area and I don't know yours. So we should leave it at that. You also failed to address what people, like me, should do with there animal if they can't afford a 500$ dental. Because here, minimum wage is only 8$ dollars. And that's what I make. If I were making 15$ an hour minimum wage like I would be in Australia it would be a different story. So because I am making 8$ does that mean I should not own pets?

Your utmost goal as a veterinarian should always be to practice the highest quality medicine to the best of your abilites. Period. You will have to tailor the medicine you practice to the finances of your client - but you should always start off offering them the best, gold standard option. You basically just said you believe in cutting corners to offer lower prices. You don't use xylazine because you can't afford propofol. You raise your price to cover the costs of propofol because that is the right thing to do by the animals in your care.


The sooner more veterinarians charge adequately, the sooner we can educate ALL clients of the ACTUAL cost of healthcare for their pets. THe sooner we can practice GOLD STANDARD medicine as STANDARD. The sooner vets can earn a wage commesurate to their qualifications and role in society. The longer people regard cost cutting as a business technique, the longer it holds the veterinary world back.

I am glad that you want to practice the GOLD STANDARD... but we ARE just talking about animals here... not people. Believe it or not I would not spend 1000s of dollars on my dog, even if I could afford it... Because ITS A DOG. If a client comes in with a 7 yo dog with treatable cancer then I would refer them to a oncologist. But if it were my dog I would put it to sleep. If a client wants this, that, and the other done on there pet and I don't have the equipment then I would refer. You say that you should practice the best of the best medicine, but what is the point where you draw the line? Should you have every piece of equipment in your office that a human doctor would have? An endoscope? A CAT scan? A ultrasound? I have never stepped foot inside of a small animal vet clinic that had these things that was not a secondary or tertiary clinic. Why would you need to buy all these expensive things if you can just refer? Keep your prices lower for the general care and if they want more they can easily have it. If I don't believe that I could care for an animal safely is when I would talk to the owner about other clinics. Every vet has a limit to what there clinic can do.

Just an example: I did have to put one of my dogs to sleep recently. The vet I take her too never once offered euthanasia as an option. He offered all the options which were all referrals and the only place that could could take her to fix her problem was the vet school. I simply cannot afford the treatments at the vet school so I told him I would like her euthanize instead. He is a very reasonable priced vet AND he is a good vet. He even refunded all of the charges for the medicine I bought the previous day even though I chopped all the pills up in half and he waved the PE fee. I did not ask him to do this he just did. We don't talk about how much money I have he just puts all the options on the table and lets me pick the one that is suitable for my budget. Do you not think this is a reasonable thing to do? He was offering me the best of the best but I just didn't take it.

I am not sure what you mean by the "veterinary world being held back"... being held back compared to what? Human medicine? I do not believe that veterinary medicine has ever or will ever reach a point to equating with human medicine. That will not happen until all the pets have pet insurance or are covered by the government which won't happen... because they are animals.

Just to add this in since I was just at the vet.
Price for a PE-35 dollars
Price for a PE at my last vet- 25 dollars
Price for a Euthanasia- 40 dollars
Price for a spay- 99$
Price for a neuter- 65 dollars
Price for a dental: 245 $ (with blood work)
Price for a nail trim- 5$
Price for a rabies vac- 30$

This vet has been practicing since 1999 and he has been very successful in our area and I enjoy bringing my dog in there. He really knows his stuff and he gave me 3 hours of his time, putting off surgeries, to be with me in my time of need. I even had his vet tech crying over my pup lol. Very compassionate staff.

That being said the VCA down the road charges 500$ a dental. Maybe its because there corporate but I would rather stick with this vet. Because he is GOOD and REASONABLY PRICED. Wow what a crazy mix!

 

[Golden10]

Any thoughts on pet insurance and preventative health and wellness plans? I have been doing quite a bit of research and brainstorming on how to incorporate such funding mechanisms into my clinic ever since deciding to pursue vet met. Would you be open to such revenue-generating programs for your practice?

I really really like these programs but I don't know how I would really incorporate them into my practice. Honestly, I would just have to do more research on it. But in a dream world yes I would love these programs!

 

[August West]

I really really like these programs but I don't know how I would really incorporate them into my practice. Honestly, I would just have to do more research on it. But in a dream world yes I would love these programs!

How about a clinic that offers rescue pet adoption and then a plan that ensures the lucky little guy gets everything he or she needs? All you pay is a modest, one-time starting fee and then a reasonable monthly maintenance fee and you get:

• All Veterinary Care at a state-of-the-art Pet hospital
• Emergency Medical Care said hospital or any referral clinic they recommend
• Prescriptions & Flea Control as needed
• Dental Care, including cleanings and even anesthesia
• Microchips, Spays and Neuters
• Licensing
• Canine Good Citizen Training for adult dogs
• Puppy Socialization & Obedience Classes for young dogs
• Individualized Nutrition Plan based on laboratory work and a physical exam
• Pet Food delivered to your door each month in an airtight container(very environmentally-conscious)
• Unlimited Nail Trims
• Grooming and boarding (included with some higher-tier plans, optional add-ons for others)

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Golden10]

How about a clinic that offers rescue pet adoption and then a plan that ensures the lucky little guy gets everything he or she needs? All you pay is a modest, one-time starting fee and then a reasonable monthly maintenance fee and you get:

• All Veterinary Care at a state-of-the-art Pet hospital
• Emergency Medical Care said hospital or any referral clinic they recommend
• Prescriptions & Flea Control as needed
• Dental Care, including cleanings and even anesthesia
• Microchips, Spays and Neuters
• Licensing
• Canine Good Citizen Training for adult dogs
• Puppy Socialization & Obedience Classes for young dogs
• Individualized Nutrition Plan based on laboratory work and a physical exam
• Pet Food delivered to your door each month in an airtight container(very environmentally-conscious)
• Unlimited Nail Trims
• Grooming and boarding (included with some higher-tier plans, optional add-ons for others)

Thoughts anyone?

Sounds like what banfeild does. They seem to be making tons of money so I would say go for it!

 

[August West]

Sounds like what banfeild does. They seem to be making tons of money so I would say go for it!

From my understanding, Banfield offers nothing like this type of comprehensive product. And it is not just about making money. Such plans would benefit all parts of the equation, the animals, the owners and the doctors who will be able to focus more on the actual care and medical treatment they provide instead of figuring out how they can slang a few more 27 dollar nail trims.

 

[Emiloo4]

Should you have every piece of equipment in your office that a human doctor would have? An endoscope? A CAT scan? A ultrasound? I have never stepped foot inside of a small animal vet clinic that had these things that was not a secondary or tertiary clinic.

I worked at a clinic for several years that has all three of these. It made it much easier for the client to just do it there, and after time, was a huge money maker. Obviously animals were referred to us since we had this equipment, but we were only a small animal vet clinic. We also had underwater treadmills.

 

[ursulamajor]

I am glad that you want to practice the GOLD STANDARD... but we ARE just talking about animals here... not people. Believe it or not I would not spend 1000s of dollars on my dog, even if I could afford it... Because ITS A DOG.

I think going into veterinary medicine with this attitude severely limits the practices you will be a good match for. There are certainly veterinary clients who have the "It's just a dog" attitude, but they are not the clients that supply most of your practice income, unless you have a shots-steroids-and-out-the-door practice, and that's a style of medicine that is both exhausting and not terribly fulfilling to do on a daily basis year after year, to say the least.

Skimming this thread, I swore I wouldn't engage, but ya got me.

 

[bayarea15]

Just a dog?? Wow. Comments like that make me glad I want to be a vet and not a md and have beurocrats for coworkers

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[August West]

I think going into veterinary medicine with this attitude severely limits the practices you will be a good match for. There are certainly veterinary clients who have the "It's just a dog" attitude, but they are not the clients that supply most of your practice income, unless you have a shots-steroids-and-out-the-door practice, and that's a style of medicine that is both exhausting and not terribly fulfilling to do on a daily basis year after year, to say the least.

Skimming this thread, I swore I wouldn't engage, but ya got me.

Agree 100%. But must show restraint. Must be strong. Biting my tongue. Can't give in...

 

[PetPony]

So if they are just animals, what's the reasoning for going into vet med?

 

[bayarea15]

Because you don't like people? Lol. Kidding of course.

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[PetPony]

Because you don't like people? Lol. Kidding of course.

Sent from my PC36100 using SDN Mobile

Exactly. It can't really be that either, right? People are part of the reason I'm going into it..

 

[Megascops Asio]

So because I am making 8$ does that mean I should not own pets?

I am glad that you want to practice the GOLD STANDARD... but we ARE just talking about animals here... not people. Believe it or not I would not spend 1000s of dollars on my dog, even if I could afford it... Because ITS A DOG.

If you know the prices related to responsible pet ownership, and yet you can't afford it because you're only being paid $8...then NO - YOU SHOULDN'T OWN PETS! That's irresponsible and ignorant. Don't be a fool and talk about pets as if you, or anyone else, simply deserves one.

And we're "just talking about animals"...? Wow. How insanely elitist. You sound like someone who is going to make a terrible vet. An animal is a living being that any pet owner, including yourself, it taking responsibility for. And yet you talk about them as if they are just things/objects. Sickening.

I understand the irony of what I'm about to say (considering I, by posting this, am doing just this - I also could no longer bite my tongue), but: :troll:

 

[NStarz]

says the girl who just spend >$1000 on a 10 year old rabbit (that I'd only had for a month) that later needed to be euthanized. I should have let him suffer, because, after all, he is just a rabbit.

 

[Dsmoody23]

If you know the prices related to responsible pet ownership, and yet you can't afford it because you're only being paid $8...then NO - YOU SHOULDN'T OWN PETS! That's irresponsible and ignorant. Don't be a fool and talk about pets as if you, or anyone else, simply deserves one.

And we're "just talking about animals"...? Wow. How insanely elitist. You sound like someone who is going to make a terrible vet. An animal is a living being that any pet owner, including yourself, it taking responsibility for. And yet you talk about them as if they are just things/objects. Sickening.

I understand the irony of what I'm about to say (considering I, by posting this, am doing just this - I also could no longer bite my tongue), but: :troll:

Meh.

Absolutes are absolutely ******ed.

I think there's a case to be made for good owners who are not willing or able to afford every treatment available. You can still responsibly own a pet and not bankrupt yourself in the process. I make 25K, these days, which is a decent sum of money, but I still balk at some of the optional costs associated with owning dogs. So yeah, no frontline in the dead of winter. I hand scale and brush instead of scheduling dentals... etc. Does that make me, or the millions of other pet owners who do the same, irresponsible and ignorant? Not so much.

Also, the case could be made that the 'terrible vet' would be the one who makes moral judgments about clients / owners financial choices. ~75% of appointments I participate in every day are with clients who have financial constraints. If you can't rationalize that a client may not be able to afford everything you consider 'responsible,' you're going to be pretty miserable working out in the world.

 

[August West]

Meh.

Absolutes are absolutely ******ed.

I think there's a case to be made for good owners who are not willing or able to afford every treatment available. You can still responsibly own a pet and not bankrupt yourself in the process. I make 25K, these days, which is a decent sum of money, but I still balk at some of the optional costs associated with owning dogs. So yeah, no frontline in the dead of winter. I hand scale and brush instead of scheduling dentals... etc. Does that make me, or the millions of other pet owners who do the same, irresponsible and ignorant? Not so much.

Also, the case could be made that the 'terrible vet' would be the one who makes moral judgments about clients / owners financial choices. ~75% of appointments I participate in every day are with clients who have financial constraints. If you can't rationalize that a client may not be able to afford everything you consider 'responsible,' you're going to be pretty miserable working out in the world.

I don't think that the "irresponsible owners" they were referring to were the ones that don't apply Frontline in the winter and hand brushed their pet's teeth instead of getting dentals.

 

[lostbunny]

ETA....

ummm on second thought... I think ima just leave it.

 

[Dsmoody23]

I don't think that the "irresponsible owners" they were referring to were the ones that don't apply Frontline in the winter and hand brushed their pet's teeth instead of getting dentals.

Cool. Now go back and read the post for my actual point.

 

[August West]

Cool. Now go back and read the post for my actual point.

Not giving Frontline in the winter and brushing your pet's teeth instead of getting dentals does not make you an irresponsible owner nor does it make you ignorant. Solid point!!