How's everyone hanging in there with the Match coming up?

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Matched FM! So grateful to have ended up at a place I genuinely liked. I kept in contact with the program post-inteview and I think that helped (but who really knows).

I'm still anxiously waiting for the ACGME match since my SO goes to an MD school. Fingers crossed that goes well too!

Congrats everyone, and good luck to those matching next month!
 
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RogerDOC said:
Just heard in MI there was two ortho spots one at Botsford and one at McLaren Macomb that weren't filled. Pretty crazy. Hope it goes to someone in the scramble.
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According to this, that is not the case at Botsford: http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Education/students/match-program/Pages/match-results.aspx

The two unfilled ortho spots are at McLaren Macomb and McLaren Oakland.

I am most surprised by the one unfilled neurosurgery spot at St. Barnabas considering the number of NS spots is much smaller.
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
Compared to last year, we now have 594 more 4th year DO students participating in the match (AOA & ACGME). That's an 11% increase. It will be interesting to see how things will turn out by the end of the match season.

https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2017sklstats.html
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What's also interesting is seeing the attrition from the new schools. ACOM and MUCOM both lost a lot of their first class along the way, 19% and 15% respectively. I'm sure some of those will finish in the next year or two, but that will be interesting to see final attrition (won't know until 2019). Also, CUSOM only lost 5% of their class, which is really impressive to be honest. That's better than most MD schools.
 
hallowmann said:
What's also interesting is seeing the attrition from the new schools. ACOM and MUCOM both lost a lot of their first class along the way, 19% and 15% respectively. I'm sure some of those will finish in the next year or two, but that will be interesting to see final attrition (won't know until 2019). Also, CUSOM only lost 5% of their class, which is really impressive to be honest. That's better than most MD schools.
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Wow those attrition rates are brutal....
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Wow those attrition rates are brutal....
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They are high but remember that those were the first classes. At schools that have been around for longer, the rate of people not graduating in four years might still be high but also be masked by people from previous classes having dropped down to the current graduating class.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Wow those attrition rates are brutal....
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Yeah, keep in mind, we won't get a comparable full attrition rate until 2019 when all those that started in the 2017 class would have to finish by. As GUH said, there are still people that will be finishing the degree in 5-6 years.

To be honest though, it makes CUSOM's attrition all the more impressive.
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
Compared to last year, we now have 594 more 4th year DO students participating in the match (AOA & ACGME). That's an 11% increase. It will be interesting to see how things will turn out by the end of the match season.

https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2017sklstats.html
Click to expand...

Do you know how many more students will graduate in 2021 compared to today? I'm an incoming student (to an old established DO school) and that number worries me.

Also is there any data on the number of residency spots vs the number of graduates?
 
sabsaf123 said:
Do you know how many more students will graduate in 2021 compared to today? I'm an incoming student (to an old established DO school) and that number worries me.

Also is there any data on the number of residency spots vs the number of graduates?
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I'll deflect these two questions to @jkdoctor since he seems to be infinitely more knowledgeable on the actual number of new DO schools, woot woot.

However, what I can tell you that the future doesn't look too pretty. DO and MD schools are increasing their matriculation at a rate higher than the historical annual growth of GME spots.
 
hallowmann said:
What's also interesting is seeing the attrition from the new schools. ACOM and MUCOM both lost a lot of their first class along the way, 19% and 15% respectively. I'm sure some of those will finish in the next year or two, but that will be interesting to see final attrition (won't know until 2019). Also, CUSOM only lost 5% of their class, which is really impressive to be honest. That's better than most MD schools.
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Hallowman, where are you finding those DO school specific attrition rates at? The only thing I could find was this report, and for the latest year tabulated (2011-2012), some unknown DO school had a 7.92% attrition rate. Is the AACOM fudging numbers some how?

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2013-com-attrition.pdf
 
MADD!!! said:
Were you the student who came on interview day?!?!!! Did you match into Crozer-Chester?! 😛
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:whistle:

They had plenty of interview days this season! But yes... tis me. Oh noes I've been outed.
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
I'll deflect these two questions to @jkdoctor since he seems to be infinitely more knowledgeable on the actual number of new DO schools, woot woot.

However, what I can tell you that the future doesn't look too pretty. DO and MD schools are increasing their matriculation at a rate higher than the historical annual growth of GME spots.
Click to expand...
By not pretty do you mean that more ppl will end up in less desirable areas or do you mean a significantly larger number of students at the bottom will not be placed? If it's the later then should ppl at the bottom leave med school after their first year?
 
sabsaf123 said:
Do you know how many more students will graduate in 2021 compared to today? I'm an incoming student (to an old established DO school) and that number worries me.

Also is there any data on the number of residency spots vs the number of graduates?
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Based on @jkdoctor 's recent posts--
There are 28,025 2016 matriculants.
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...pots-to-applicants-is-now-about-2500.1241131/
Also, there are 5 new DO schools for 2017.
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...chools-planned-in-2017.1231665/#post-18365602

Assuming 150 per class, (as most of the new school websites indicate), that is around 700 more matriculants in the year of 2017 from DO schools alone. There are also some new MD schools so add maybe another 200-300 matriculants. Gosh I hope I am getting the numbers wrong somehow as this is a TON of new students for just a year later.
 
sabsaf123 said:
Do you know how many more students will graduate in 2021 compared to today? I'm an incoming student (to an old established DO school) and that number worries me.

Also is there any data on the number of residency spots vs the number of graduates?
Click to expand...

The number will be around a couple thousand more. It's honestly not something you need to worry about. The surplus of residencies might reduce by 1000-2000 when you graduate, but we won't be close to parity for a while.

Obviously you should do the best you can regardless though.

TheaterOfTheme said:
Based on @jkdoctor 's recent posts--
There are 28,025 2016 matriculants.
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...pots-to-applicants-is-now-about-2500.1241131/
Also, there are 5 new DO schools for 2017.
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...chools-planned-in-2017.1231665/#post-18365602

Assuming 150 per class, (as most of the new school websites indicate), that is around 700 more matriculants in the year of 2017 from DO schools alone. There are also some new MD schools so add maybe another 200-300 matriculants. Gosh I hope I am getting the numbers wrong somehow as this is a TON of new students for just a year later.
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Do those schools have provisional accreditation? I can tell you that LECOM-Elmira doesn't. UIW I thought was already recruiting people now. That list is more of a potential list, so we'll see what actually happens. No school that isn't accepting apps now will open this year.

Wjldenver said:
Hallowman, where are you finding those DO school specific attrition rates at? The only thing I could find was this report, and for the latest year tabulated (2011-2012), some unknown DO school had a 7.92% attrition rate. Is the AACOM fudging numbers some how?

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2013-com-attrition.pdf
Click to expand...

Those schools accepted ~162 in their inaugural class (the max amount they're allowed to accept according to COCA), and the NMS match data indicates number of eligible seniors from each school. I used that to see their attrition. But like I said, some number of those lost will finish in 5 or 6 years (i.e. 2018 or 2019 respectively).

As far as attrition for other COMs go, yeah, that was the last report, but you can estimate attrition by looking at the first year enrollees and comparing them to the graduates 4 years later. It's about 8% pretty consistently. You can get this info from the last table in this AACOM report:

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2016-trends-COM-AEG.pdf?sfvrsn=52
 
hallowmann said:
Do those schools have provisional accreditation? I can tell you that LECOM-Elmira doesn't. UIW I thought was already recruiting people now. That list is more of a potential list, so we'll see what actually happens. No school that isn't accepting apps now will open this year.
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Just checked AACOMAS and only UIW, ARCOM, and RVU Ivins accepted apps. Good call.

Edit: Just realized the Joplin campus functions under the same app as KCU. So all of the above except LECOM-Elmira took in students.
 
TheaterOfTheme said:
Just checked AACOMAS and only UIW, ARCOM, and RVU Ivins accepted apps. Good call.

Edit: Just realized the Joplin campus functions under the same app as KCU. So all of the above except LECOM-Elmira took in students.
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Yeah, it should also be noted that satellites usually take less than the typical new school (162), so chances are those will each take around 100 or so. It's still a good amount, but it seems to be the (new since 2013) trend that every year there's another 400-600 new DO matriculants.
 
As an incoming OMS1, I am not sure how I feel about the fact that by 2021 the AOA Match will supposedly be non-existent...it seems that having this match is a clear plus for DO students.
 
Doctor_Strange said:
As an incoming OMS1, I am not sure how I feel about the fact that by 2021 the AOA Match will supposedly be non-existent...it seems that having this match is a clear plus for DO students.
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Not "supposedly," rather definitely. Actually 2020 there will certainly be no AOA match because the AOA will cease to exist as an accrediting body in 2020.
 
n3xa said:
:whistle:

They had plenty of interview days this season! But yes... tis me. Oh noes I've been outed.
Click to expand...

Hope to run into yall at Crozer next year, I'm trying to set up an audition there!
 
Doctor_Strange said:
As an incoming OMS1, I am not sure how I feel about the fact that by 2021 the AOA Match will supposedly be non-existent...it seems that having this match is a clear plus for DO students.
Click to expand...

I have said to DO students to be careful what they wish for. The AOA match was kind of back up plan for students in the lowest quartile in their class and these students now will have to compete with MD students for spots in the ACGME match and I think they might be at a disadvantage.

For instance, a lowest quartile student from my low tier MD school is someone with 210-220 on step1, with 2 research papers and no red flags...
 
Ravizzle said:
https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2017sklstats.html

The match data by school. Interesting info. Am i missing something or does that match rate look terrible? I know a good amount might be ranking programs in both matches, just still looks a lot lower than I would have thought.
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Not really all that surprising. Its usually ~40% as reported by NMS. They quantify it as match rate out of total eligible candidates as opposed to out of those that participated in the NMS match. If you divide the matched by the total that did participate in the NMS match (i.e. those that didn't withdraw altogether) its more like 74.9%, but again keep in mind people may have only ranked their top choice with other choices in the NRMP match (a common strategy), so this is still a bit misleading.

Actual DO match rate across the board is somewhere between 86-89% (that's where it was last year).

It should also be noted that this year saw a higher percentage than usual of non-participants (mostly people going NRMP) as compared to last year. Usually its 45-47% this year it was 51%
 
I matched into Pre-accredited IM program which I hope would get fully accredited by the time I start.

But I was wondering, can ACGME Pre-accredited programs sit for MD boards like ABIM or they would have to go for ABOIM. Also, would students from Pre-accredited program be eligible for MD fellowships?

Thanks


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W19 said:
I have said to DO students to be careful what they wish for. The AOA match was kind of back up plan for students in the lowest quartile in their class and these students now will have to compete with MD students for spots in the ACGME match and I think they might be at a disadvantage.

For instance, a lowest quartile student from my low tier MD school is someone with 210-220 on step1, with 2 research papers and no red flags...
Click to expand...

Yeah, I figured as much. I have been told that the AOA was a back up of sorts despite the fact a few competitive spots are available (i.e. Ortho). I can't really do anything but hope that come 2020, and 2021 (for me at least) that DOs will have more opportunities and less bias against them. Time will tell I suppose...
 
Pisiform said:
I matched into Pre-accredited IM program which I hope would get fully accredited by the time I start.

But I was wondering, can ACGME Pre-accredited programs sit for MD boards like ABIM or they would have to go for ABOIM. Also, would students from Pre-accredited program be eligible for MD fellowships?

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

It seems board certification is separate from all this. But I don't see how training from a program with Initial ACGME Accreditation can preclude you from taking the ABIM boards.

If you graduate from a pre-accredited residency program:

Effective July 1, 2016, eligibility requirements for all fellowship positions require completion of prerequisite training in a program accredited by the ACGME, the RCPSC, or the College of Family Physicians of Canada (CFPC). Between July 1, 2015 and June 30, 2020, a resident who completes prerequisite training in an AOA-approved program with pre-accreditation status will be subject to the ACGME fellowship eligibility standards (per subspecialty) that were in effect June 30, 2013 or July 1, 2016, whichever is less restrictive.

If your program achieves initial accreditation before you graduate:

Residents who graduate from an AOA-approved program that achieves ACGME Initial Accreditation prior to their graduation are eligible for ACGME-accredited fellowship programs, even if not all of the prerequisite clinical education required for entry into the fellowship was completed under ACGME accreditation. Eligibility for and completion of ACGME-accredited programs does not guarantee eligibility for board certification. Board certification eligibility is determined by the individual certifying boards. Questions regarding eligibility for ABMS member board certification should be directed to the appropriate ABMS member board; questions about AOA certification should be directed to the appropriate AOA specialty certifying board.

About the boards specifically:

Board certification will continue to be offered by the ABMS and the AOA specialty certifying boards. Certification and eligibility determinations will remain the domain of the respective certifying boards. The agreement among the ACGME, the AOA, and AACOM is limited to issues regarding accreditation and eligibility of ACGME-accredited programs and institutions. Questions regarding eligibility for ABMS member board certification should be directed to the appropriate ABMS member board; questions about AOA certification should be directed to the appropriate AOA specialty certifying board.

http://www.acgme.org/Portals/0/PDFs/Nasca-Community/FAQs.pdf
 
Pisiform said:
I matched into Pre-accredited IM program which I hope would get fully accredited by the time I start.

But I was wondering, can ACGME Pre-accredited programs sit for MD boards like ABIM or they would have to go for ABOIM. Also, would students from Pre-accredited program be eligible for MD fellowships?

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

Pre-accredited programs can't sit for ABIM. That said, according to the specialty boards table for IM, as long as the program gets initial accreditation by the time you finish, you should be able to sit for either board (AOBIM and ABIM).

Students applying from pre-accredited programs are eligible for fellowships through the transition, so yes, as long as the program is pre-accredited, you are able to apply for ACGME fellowships through 2020. After that (i.e. if you work as an attending before fellowship) its not really clear unless your program received initial accreditation before you finish.

Here's the specialty board table for reference:

https://www.osteopathic.org/inside-...ystem/Documents/board-certification-chart.pdf
 
This is probably a silly question, but does it mean that after 2021, when all residencies are ACGME-accredited, those in residencies that were AOA-accredited are eligible to apply for ACGME fellowships?
 
ChiTownBHawks said:
When you apply for residency 100% of residencies will be acgme, so yes. If you mean those ahead of you who were once in AOA residencies that have become acgme, also yes. If you, by some other chance, mean those who are currently in AOA residencies but are closing, for whatever reason, the answer is still yes.
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That's awesome! Thanks for the quick reply!
 
poloboy said:
This is probably a silly question, but does it mean that after 2021, when all residencies are ACGME-accredited, those in residencies that were AOA-accredited are eligible to apply for ACGME fellowships?
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Yes, AOA residency graduates could always apply for ACGME fellowships. It the threat of taking this away that got the AOA to seriously consider the merger in the first place.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Yes, AOA residency graduates could always apply for ACGME fellowships. It the threat of taking this away that got the AOA to seriously consider the merger in the first place.
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So it technically happened. The "pre-accreditation" designation is actually a way to get around it created by the merger. So as long as programs are pre-accredited (i.e. they applied), then applicants can apply for advanced or fellowship positions based on the requirements prior to the change. If you are in an AOA program that is not pre-accredited and doesn't gain either accreditation or pre-accreditation, then you actually can't apply to most ACGME fellowships as based on the 2016 common program requirements (or whatever its called).

Like I mention above though, its not really clear what's going to happen post-2020. After June 30th 2020 "pre-accreditation" will no longer exist, so its not really clear whether graduates of programs that failed to complete accreditation would be able to apply for fellowships in say the 2021 fellowship app cycle. Its not clear. They imply that to be the case, but don't directly answer it in any of the documents I saw.

So this will really only affect people that finish residency during the transition while their programs are pre-accredited, but then their programs fail to get initial accreditation and close, and those same people are applying after June 30th 2020 (e.g. for say the 2021 or on cycles). People in that, what I expect to be rare situation, would not be able to apply for ACGME fellowships based on the common requirements released for 2016.

Now keep in mind though, that these are all the technical requirements. The ACGME actually leaves a lot up to the discretion of the programs whether they would define an applicant from a non-accredited as having "special qualifications" that make them desirable for the fellowship. So basically its up to programs individually. Specialty boards though may have different requirements.

The safest thing to do is to go to a program that is ACGME accredited (full or initial), or to go to a pre-accredited program with the intention of applying for fellowship/advanced positions prior to June 30th 2020. Now obviously if the programs gain pre-accreditation by the time you apply for fellowship or the program gains initial accreditation you'll also be fine.
 
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1lezvd.jpg
 
This wait is crazy. I had such a range of programs on my ROL concentrated in two areas on opposite sides of the country from each other. These couple of days are going to drive me crazy.

Congrats to everyone who matched and good luck to those in the SOAP/scramble, this process really is insane.
 
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