HPSP part of the PROBLEM ! ? ! ? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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USAFdoc

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:idea: the below letter is from the JAMA issue 10/11/06.

skip to the last paragraph if you need to. Basically, this physician questions whether the "extra effort" he makes really is part of the problem--- enabling the problems in certain areas of care to persist.

I challenge you all to think about if the pipeline of HPSP and military "culture" play similar roles -- enabling the problems/poor patient and staff care/ manning issues and many other issues which only persist because "they can" persist as long as HPSP and military culture allow them to.




The Imaginary Safety Net
David B. Kilgore, MD
Tacoma,Washington
[email protected]



JAMA. 2006;296:1701-1702.

The nursing note for my next patient stated simply, "Follow-up of nose injury." Randy (not his real name) was a young man, new to the clinic, so there was no background information available from the chart. I knocked on the door, stepped into the small examination room, and introduced myself to a short, unshaven young man with a bandage covering the end of his nose. I learned he was involved in a fight three nights ago and that his assailant had "bitten him on the end of his nose." He had been treated at the local emergency department and had been referred to a plastic surgeon for follow-up. Upon calling the surgeon's office for an appointment the next day, however, he was told that because he had no medical insurance, he would need to bring $500 cash up front just to be seen for the first appointment. When he called the ED back to complain, they gave him the number of our community clinic. Randy looked at me angrily. "I make minimum wage, Dude—no way I have that kind of money lying around. What am I supposed to do?"

I’ve cared for underserved populations my entire professional life, and his is an all too familiar story. The safety net for uninsured patients, such as it exists in the United States, stretches paper thin between emergency departments and community clinics. The buck stops with us, if it stops at all. When poor people have nowhere else to turn, they come to us. After almost 20 years of seeing the results of poverty and lack of access to care, I still never know what to expect behind the next exam room door.

I reached forward and gently began to peel back the bandage. Many times patients are referred to plastic surgeons for fine-tuning of cosmetically important wounds, like facial lacerations. Surgeons have the extra training to do subtle wound improvements or scar revisions to help obtain the best cosmetic results. This young man seemed like a rough-and-tumble sort of guy—when I reviewed his basic medical history, he proudly regaled me with his various physical exploits that resulted in several broken bones, three amputated fingers, and various bodily scars. I was a little surprised he would be concerned about having a plastic surgeon attend to a scar on his nose, but then again, it was his face and he had a right to the same level of care as his insured brethren.

His problem, however, wasn't with a scar across his nose. His problem was that he no longer had a nose. Pulling back the last layer of bandage, I stifled a gasp. In the middle of his face, between his eyes and mouth, was a jagged wound. There was a small remaining upper bridge of nose jutting down, but the fleshy end was traumatically missing—bitten off.

As horrific as it was, the wound at least showed no signs of infection. I rebandaged it, instructed him about further wound care, then promised him that the clinic's outreach worker would get to work on trying to find a plastic surgeon who would see him—for what? For free? Not likely. He had the classic dilemma of the working poor—an injury or condition that wasn't a life-threatening emergency but still clearly needed treatment. His low-income job offered no health insurance but paid him just enough to disqualify him for Medicaid coverage.

Our outreach worker sighed when I gave her the referral request. She added his chart to the towering pile on her desk, muttering her suspicions out loud. "What was he doing that night anyway? Did he provoke the fight?" In other words, what was his responsibility for his current predicament? Is he simply paying for his poor choices? I often struggle with these kinds of questions. I struggle first with myself, to acknowledge how easy it is to pass judgment on those whose lives and backgrounds I can scarcely imagine. I struggle with how judgments of the health care community can sometimes make it more difficult to render compassionate care, whether subtly with sarcastic comments and nonverbal behavior, or overtly with substandard or denied care. And this is a slippery slope to start down. Who among us has not done something stupid that resulted in an injury, however small? Are injuries that happen to insured people somehow immune to judgment and more worthy of society's dollars? The choices of many to overeat and not exercise are resulting in an epidemic of diabetes, hyperlipidemia, and vascular disease with very expensive consequences: Are these patients therefore to blame and not deserving of coverage for their medical treatments?

During a follow-up visit, Randy asked me to check his shoulder, also injured in the fight, and I noticed persistently elevated blood pressure readings as well. I diagnosed a torn muscle in his shoulder and new-onset hypertension—problems that at least I could treat, although in limited ways due to his lack of insurance. An MRI scan would have been helpful to confirm his torn shoulder muscle, but he simply laughed at the $800 he would have to come up with. Physical therapy would have been helpful in his recovery, but instead I printed out self-guided exercise instructions in lieu of the $600 bill he again couldn't afford. I had samples of blood pressure medication I could give him, but he insisted on postponing important baseline laboratory tests of his kidney function and electrolytes until he covered his rent that month.

On his third visit, I learned we had succeeded in getting Randy an appointment at the county surgical clinic 60 miles away, at some distant time in the future. He still wore a gauze bandage over his wound, even though it was healing well, to shield himself from stares from passersby. His blood pressure was down, and his shoulder was feeling better. As I prepared to leave the room, he reached out and vigorously shook my hand. "Thanks, Doc. You’ve done more for me than any of them fancy hospitals." I was initially embarrassed by his effusive gratitude, but later, as I sat finishing his chart, I found myself feeling sad and angry. I reflected on all the care he would have received had he been insured. As community clinic physicians, we do what we can but know it's often not enough. We know that some care is better than no care, but we carry the burden of knowing what care and treatment someone with insurance would have received. At times, and especially early in my career, I have been proud of carrying that burden, of being part of a safety net for the neediest. At other times, and more so lately, I wonder if my very participation in this system plays a darker role—a complicit role—of enabling the disparity of care to persist, of helping to provide false reassurance that we actually have a safety net that provides adequate care to all in need.


A Piece of My Mind Section Editor: Roxanne K. Young, Associate Editor.
 
I guess HPSP is part of the problem--it continues to provide a large pool of lower paid physicians to do the "grunt" work of the system. Military medicine would be forced to change if there was a true shortage of physicians for the deployment/readiness mission.
 
This article just pisses me off. I can't stand it when some idiot who has no health insurance decides to go around frequently getting into fights. And now when his own utter stupidity catches up to him, it's society's fault for not bailing him out for acting like a complete jack a$$. I have no problem with treating emergency conditions. But if he needs plastic surgery, that's not something people are entitled to.

As far as the complicity thing goes, it's hard to say. If hpsp wasn't able to attract more physicians, they would probably just have to increase the scholarship (like they've been doing). However, a socialized medical system will never be that great. Which is why we should just switch over to outsourcing most of the military's medical care to the civilian world. The only question then becomes, where do we get doctors to deply from???
 
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Physicians have no rank therefore no power to change the system. To make rank and gain power you have to stay in. The system is broke beyond repair so we get out at the earliest convenience therefore leaving only junior officers with no power to fight the fight.

We are in the military so as a Capt or Maj you can not say "no I will not do my own coding even though I have not been trained and if I make a mistake it is fraud" I know many who have tried this, but we still do our own crap anyway.

We are still responsible both ethically and legally so you can not simply say "in the real world my tech would get vitals on this patient but since he/she did not I will just not do them myself." You can go out and make the tech do them, but that takes 15 min longer than it would if you would just do them and although it may eventually correct the problem, you just added 10min to your already packed day and if you do this for each of your 20 patients.......


The reason why making the tech above do the vitals doesn’t work, they get passive aggressive and start screwing up everything else, and since you as the Doc do not write their EPR’s they do not have to answer to you, Heck even if you did write their EPR’s everyone knows you can not write a bad performance report in the military you get a letter back saying either change it and make it good, or write an additional letter stating why the report said “Amn Snuffy is lazy because he shows up late and leaves early and takes long lunches pawning off his work on everyone else.” As if the bullet didn’t already explain why you think AMN is lazy.
 
I think as doctors we have an obligation to provide medical care to the poor. Is the author suggesting that by providing medical care for the poor he enables them to abuse the system? If so I think it is scary and unethical.

I think anti-recruiting by discouraging young medical students from signing up for HPSP is also problematic especially when that decision is celebrated. What I'm most concerned about is the soldiers, sailors, marines and their families who need the medical care. Can we really sit by at a time of war and abandon them?

There must be a better way to get the needed reforms than calling a strike and shutting down the system.
 
...You can go out and make the tech do them, but that takes 15 min longer than it would if you would just do them and although it may eventually correct the problem, you just added 10min to your already packed day and if you do this for each of your 20 patients.......

...

Not disagreeeing with you but...

A leadership tip: Always fight some battles. Even in the Marines we had guys who would drag their feet and do everything short of disobeying an order to get out of doing their job. You have got to concentrate on these guys and bring the full weight of your leadership skills on them even though it is easier let them win by picking on your more self-disciplined Marines who will say "Aye aye, Sergeant," and get the job done. When you ignore the malingerer you shift the burden of his work onto his fellow Marines which is not fair to them.

It's difficult and sometimes it means that you need to expend time and energy (like supervising disciplinary activities which I'm not sure they have in the Air Force) but if you give up you may as well turn in your stripes or your bars.

If you are fearless in the execution of your authority and remain calm and completely correct you will always win. I can't imagine even an Airman First Class is going to be able to explain, at his NJP hearing, how he felt he didn't have to do his job.

You just have to not give a crap whether your subordinates like you. It took me a while to get the hang of it, of course, but in the end everybody is happier when they know their boundaries, even your **** birds.

I believe my Marines liked and respected me. I was by no means a hard-ass and almost never yelled or even raised my voice except to be heard over other noises.

If they're incorrigible then you document, document, document like a civilian manager would and do everything by the book.
 
I think as doctors we have an obligation to provide medical care to the poor. Is the author suggesting that by providing medical care for the poor he enables them to abuse the system? If so I think it is scary and unethical.

I think anti-recruiting by discouraging young medical students from signing up for HPSP is also problematic especially when that decision is celebrated. What I'm most concerned about is the soldiers, sailors, marines and their families who need the medical care. Can we really sit by at a time of war and abandon them?

There must be a better way to get the needed reforms than calling a strike and shutting down the system.

1) no, he is not saying the patient is abusing the system; rather he is saying the current system, where some physicians bend over backwards to try and get care for patients with no health insurance enables the "no health insurance" system to continue. If there were no physicians willing to go that extra mile, then the system would crash (the ER system) and then leadership would have to do something about it.

2)of course there is a better way to do it, but how many DECADES are you willing to wait till it happens? Like I said, the system will not change because it doesn't have to. It will take a break in the HPSP pipeline or for the public to become fully aware of what is going on in nmilitary medicine (the public would be outraged) for the system to change for the better.

3) the troops would not be abandoned..they would still get care, just from somebody else.
 
There must be a better way to get the needed reforms than calling a strike and shutting down the system.

Read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged (http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Shrugged-Ayn-Rand/dp/0451191145), then get back to me.

When a system is run by tin-eared, tin pot dictators who refuse to listen to the earnest pleas by their subordinates to improve the medical care of patients to meet national and international standards of care; when physicians get LORs for advocating that pediatric patients be transferred to pediatric facilities; and when physicians are asked by the Line to advise wargamers on how to poison "enemy combatants", in shocking disregard of both LOAC and the Hippocratic Oath; then "a strike and shutting down the system" to reboot it into a better system, which will provide both excellent medical care for our troops, and livable working conditions for our military physicians, seems like a CAPITAL idea to many of us.

"All the men who have vanished, the men you hated, yet dreaded to lose, it is I who have taken them away from you. Do not attempt to find us. We do not choose to be found. Do not cry that it is our duty to serve you. We do not recognize such duty. Do not cry that you need us. We do not consider need a claim. Do not cry that you own us. You don't. Do not beg us to return. We are on strike, we, the men of the mind.

We are on strike against self-immolation. We are on strike against the creed of unearned rewards and unrewarded duties. We are on strike against the dogma that the pursuit of one's happiness is evil. We are on strike against the doctrine that life is guilt.

There is a difference between our strike and all those you've practiced for centuries: our strike consists not in making demands, but granting them. We are evil, according to your morality. We have chosen not to harm you any longer...We are dangerous and to be shackled, according to your politics. We have chosen not to endanger you, nor to wear the shackles any longer."
--Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged, 35th Anniversary Edition, Signet Books, pp. 924-925

Strike! Strike! Strike!

--
R
 
If you are fearless in the execution of your authority and remain calm and completely correct you will always win. I can't imagine even an Airman First Class is going to be able to explain, at his NJP hearing, how he felt he didn't have to do his job.

Panda Bear, good buddy, again you go extrapolating your prior service experience with the line of the Marine Corps to the Medical Corpse of the Air Force. Apples, Oranges.

The Airman First Class tech is commanded by a nurse. Always! The nurse does not have to listen to what the physician (7by11) says, because she (the doc) is not in his/her chain of command. If the nurse happens to be the sort that make up 87.6% of the Air Force Nurse Corps (those who are looking forward to making rank so they can command physicians), she will defend her troop as follows:

1) He was busy doing other things the nurse told him to do
2) The doctor's judgment as to what is important (vital signs) is not as important as his/her nursing judgment as to what is important (working on CBT, EPR, or optimizing his/her metrics)
3) The doctor is overstepping her authority by jacking up the nurse's minion; it is up to the nurse to oversee his/her techs; leave them alone, or face the wrath of the R.N. Squadron Commander over both the nurse and the physician.

It will never get to an NJP hearing, because you are not processing the dual chains of command that military physicians face. In my defense during my own NJP rebuttal process, I created the following graphic to educate my dense superiors regarding how frustrating and demoralizing it is to have one's clinical judgments eviscerated by the UCMJ-wielding Admin chain of command, while the medical chain of command (which agrees that one is "completely correct" in one's judgment and actions) stands by to allow the physician to be clubbed to death like a defenseless baby seal on the slick ice of administrative unreason:

http://www.medicalcorpse.com/competing_chains.doc

Standing up for one's patients by pulling rank in the USAF Medical Corpse is a sure recipe for career disaster, premature alopecia, and depression. As I have said in my post re: coprophagy as a positive goal for physicians wishing to make rank in today's military: trust me on this one.

--
R
 
I find this argument very interesting, "I am a doctor, so I have an obligation to help everyone that walks through my door." I don't necessarily disagree with the statement, I just find it very complicated, so let me see if I can break it down.

"Because I'm a doctor." Does the fact that you have training alone demand that your time is no longer your own? Is it that profession that requires the higher standard. Is it really that different than a master mechanic? My car transmission just fell out, therefore, even if I can't afford it, you must fix it because you have been trained to do so. Or a painter, or a cop, or whomever. I will not even try to argue this in an emergency. I think every person alive has an obligation to help out another to the best of their ability when an emergency exists.

Nose-chewed-off-guy (NCOG) has a right to the work of the plastic surgeon? It's not an emergency, it's not life-threatening. Let's just say that I help NCOG with his nose. Is that going to bankrupt me? Probably not, will it effect my bottom line? Absolutely. Will it increase the proportion of my overhead? Definitely. If I end up seeing more and more NCOG's who can't pay for their care, what do I do to pay the salary of my employees, put my kids through college, keep my home?

Here's a pretty blunt example. The President of the University of ______ Health Sciences Center gave our department a presentation one day because of our complaints that we weren't able to care for indigent patients in our ED as much as we would have liked to do. He gave a real world example to tell us we couldn't possibly support it.

One child was admitted to the University in Sickle Cell Crisis. Obviously, an emergency. He had no insurance whatsoever and parents had no extra money. By the time his admission was complete 3 weeks later, he had accounted for using up 70% of the Red Cross stores of various fluids for his type. This is fine by all of us--he needed it, that's why it's there. However, he had also established a $1.2M hospital bill. He had a lot of problems and complications related to stabilizing him and getting him ok for discharge.

The President said, "If we began to admit every person without insurance that we see in our ED each day who warrants further inpatient evaluation and treatment, but who is NOT an emergency, guess how long we'd be a solvent business before closing our doors?" By the way, he's talking about a school that has ranked as high as 11th in NIH funding--not a podunk institution by any means. "We'd have to shut our doors in 65 days--that's not even assuming the cost of each admission is a 10th of what this young man cost us. We're just using the average cost of admission for patients who do get admitted through the ED."

If a major university would have to shut it's doors in under 3 months, am I truly "obligated" because of my training to POTENTIALLY risk the livlihood of myself, my employees, and most importantly my family?

The second part of that statement, "I have an obligation to everyone who walks through that door." Eliminating the doctor part of it makes it sound like a business slogan. Add the phrase, "whether they can pay or not" makes it sound like a charity, not a business.

Personally, I don't think medicine is a charity. I think like in every walk of life, parts of it should be charitable. I believe every person should have a right to get emergency care. I put the politics and economics of that decision aside for later argument. I do not, however, think that people have a right to routine medical care. I've never heard anyone argue that people have a right to dental care. I think one reason is that most people would agree that preventative care eliminates the need for most dental procedures. The problem is that society does not feel that way about medicine. NCOG or fat-guy or McDonald's-every-day-guy or Smoker-Guy are not seen by society as being at fault for their own situation. But if they were, if we were to blame the obese guy for his own blood surgars, HTN, pancreatitis, DVT's, hyperlipidemia, dyspnea, etc would there be such a demand for this guy to get the care he now needs when he can't affort it?

Honestly I don't know.

As far as my own moral system works, as a physician I believe no one has the right to demand medical treatment from me but I do not have the right to deny them. How do I sleep at night with that paradox running through my head?
 
This article just pisses me off. I can't stand it when some idiot who has no health insurance decides to go around frequently getting into fights. And now when his own utter stupidity catches up to him, it's society's fault for not bailing him out for acting like a complete jack a$$. I have no problem with treating emergency conditions. But if he needs plastic surgery, that's not something people are entitled to.

As far as the complicity thing goes, it's hard to say. If hpsp wasn't able to attract more physicians, they would probably just have to increase the scholarship (like they've been doing). However, a socialized medical system will never be that great. Which is why we should just switch over to outsourcing most of the military's medical care to the civilian world. The only question then becomes, where do we get doctors to deply from???

I agree with you on one level. This person should not be putting himself in these situations without medical coverage, but I read between the lines here and see someone who might end up with similiar needs who is not complicit in his own injuries, as I'm sure happens often.

Why does national medical coverage have to equal socialized medicine? if that is what you are refering to.

Finally, if all military doctors are outsourced, it would simply be a matter of paying doctors enough to deploy. I'm sure there is a wage high enough to make doctors willing to visit far away places.
 
If a major university would have to shut it's doors in under 3 months, am I truly "obligated" because of my training to POTENTIALLY risk the livlihood of myself, my employees, and most importantly my family?

I do not, however, think that people have a right to routine medical care. I've never heard anyone argue that people have a right to dental care. I think one reason is that most people would agree that preventative care eliminates the need for most dental procedures.

First quote: why can't there be a middle ground in your personal practice? Why can't you do some pro bono work, but still stay solvent financially? It sounds like that is what the University does.

Second quote:Why shouldn't people have a right to routine medical care? What would be wrong with that? Again, why shouldn't people have a right to dental care? I have strong teeth, I have taken miserable care of my teeth and never had a cavity. My father however, has very weak teeth, and as flawlessly has he has cared for his teeth he has had work done on every one of them as far as I know. Routine preventative care does not solve everyone's problems, and as odd as "educated" citizens may find it that smokers, drinkers, and fast food gobblers profess shock when they get sick, we are not all created equal, some of us are far more susceptible to advertising than others. Do we simply abandon these people?
 
I'm trying to picture Howard Roark starting a website like yours and discouraging people from going into architecture at a certain university!

I'm trying to imagine John Galt posting to a forum as you do to encourage others to sacrifice their personal happiness (and that of their families) on the altar of "military service".

Do not EVEN try to out-Objectivize me.

http://www.medicalcorpse.com/objectivism.doc

--
R
 
Why does national medical coverage have to equal socialized medicine? if that is what you are refering to.

depends what you mean by national medical coverage. If you mean a single payer system, that that's even more socialized than socialized medicine.
 
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Not disagreeeing with you but...

A leadership tip: Always fight some battles. Even in the Marines we had guys who would drag their feet and do everything short of disobeying an order to get out of doing their job. You have got to concentrate on these guys and bring the full weight of your leadership skills on them even though it is easier let them win by picking on your more self-disciplined Marines who will say "Aye aye, Sergeant," and get the job done. When you ignore the malingerer you shift the burden of his work onto his fellow Marines which is not fair to them.


MY POINT IS THAT I FIGHT AS MANY BATTLES AS POSSIBLE - IF YOU FIGHT EVERY BATTLE YOU GET NOTHING DONE- NO PATIENT CARE AT ALL AND NO ONE LISTENS TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE THE COMPLAINER

I HAVE ACTUALLY TOLD THE TECHNICIANS AT ONE CLINIC WHEN THEY WEREN'T DOING VITALS THAT THEY COULD NOT LEAVE THE HOSPITAL THAT NIGHT UNTIL I DID SINCE I WAS DOING THEIR JOB>>> THEY HATED ME _ I DIDNT CARE AND I WAS ONLY A RESIDENT AT THE TIME>>>> NOW AS A STAFF I HAVE THE SAME COMPLAINTS WITH THE SAME CLINIC AT A DIFFERENT HOSPITAL<< AND THIS BATTLE IS EASIER FOR ME TO DO THEN TO ADD TWO HOURS TO MY DAY.

It's difficult and sometimes it means that you need to expend time and energy (like supervising disciplinary activities which I'm not sure they have in the Air Force) but if you give up you may as well turn in your stripes or your bars.

If you are fearless in the execution of your authority and remain calm and completely correct you will always win. I can't imagine even an Airman First Class is going to be able to explain, at his NJP hearing, how he felt he didn't have to do his job.


NOT TRUE - I WAS TOLD AT MY CURRENT HOSPITAL BY E3 WHEN I ASKED HIM/HER TO GET RECORDS FOR ME WHILE I SAW 3 PATIENTS GETTING IV'S STARTED ETC "ITS NOT MY JOB" I PULLED THAT PERSON TO THE SIDE AND READ THAT PERON THE RIOT ACT GOT THAT PERSONS NCOIC INVOLVED AND NOTHING WAS DONE AND I WAS TOLD "MAAM THE PATIENTS CAN HEAR YOU" AND " HE/SHE IS THE BEST TECH WE HAVE" I WAS DOWN THE HALL FROM THE PATIENTS AND I DIDN'T CARE BECAUSE ALL 5 PATIENTS HEARD THAT TECH TELL ME "ITS NOT MY JOB"

You just have to not give a crap whether your subordinates like you. It took me a while to get the hang of it, of course, but in the end everybody is happier when they know their boundaries, even your **** birds.


IF YOU KNEW ME YOU WULD KNOW THAT I COULD CARE LESS WHETHER PEOPLE LIKE ME. REMEMBER EVEN THOUGH WE ARE NOT THE LINE WE STILL HAVE SOME "SHUT UP AND COLOR" ORDERS GIVEN AND IF NO PATIENTS ARE HARMED SOMETIMES YOU JUST COLOR. EXAMPLE - EVEN THOUGH IT MAKES NO SINCE TO HAVE YOUR HIGHEST PAID PERSON DOING THE JOB OF THE SECRETARY OR JANITOR (WHOSE JOBS ARE IMPORTANT BY ALL MEANS, BUT IF THE INTERNIST IS EMPTYING TRASH HE IS NOT SEEING PATIENTS - GET THE POINT)

I believe my Marines liked and respected me. I was by no means a hard-ass and almost never yelled or even raised my voice except to be heard over other noises.

If they're incorrigible then you document, document, document like a civilian manager would and do everything by the book.

I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE TRY TO DOCUMENT BADNESS AND IT ONLY COMES BACK TO THEM WITH 10 X MORE WORK AGAIN WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO WRITE A 3 PAGE LETTER TO SAY WHY I THINK PERSON X IS LAZY WHEN I ALREADY SAID IT IN THE OPR BULLET.
 
depends what you mean by national medical coverage. If you mean a single payer system, that that's even more socialized than socialized medicine.

I had not thought about the implications of a single payer system... Now, how is that more socialized than socialized medicine. Single payer system is what I thought that was, big gov. pays for it all. What exactly is social medicine if not this?
 
MY POINT IS THAT I FIGHT AS MANY BATTLES AS POSSIBLE - IF YOU FIGHT EVERY BATTLE YOU GET NOTHING DONE- NO PATIENT CARE AT ALL AND NO ONE LISTENS TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE THE COMPLAINER

I HAVE ACTUALLY TOLD THE TECHNICIANS AT ONE CLINIC WHEN THEY WEREN'T DOING VITALS THAT THEY COULD NOT LEAVE THE HOSPITAL THAT NIGHT UNTIL I DID SINCE I WAS DOING THEIR JOB>>> THEY HATED ME _ I DIDNT CARE AND I WAS ONLY A RESIDENT AT THE TIME>>>> NOW AS A STAFF I HAVE THE SAME COMPLAINTS WITH THE SAME CLINIC AT A DIFFERENT HOSPITAL<< AND THIS BATTLE IS EASIER FOR ME TO DO THEN TO ADD TWO HOURS TO MY DAY.




NOT TRUE - I WAS TOLD AT MY CURRENT HOSPITAL BY E3 WHEN I ASKED HIM/HER TO GET RECORDS FOR ME WHILE I SAW 3 PATIENTS GETTING IV'S STARTED ETC "ITS NOT MY JOB" I PULLED THAT PERSON TO THE SIDE AND READ THAT PERON THE RIOT ACT GOT THAT PERSONS NCOIC INVOLVED AND NOTHING WAS DONE AND I WAS TOLD "MAAM THE PATIENTS CAN HEAR YOU" AND " HE/SHE IS THE BEST TECH WE HAVE" I WAS DOWN THE HALL FROM THE PATIENTS AND I DIDN'T CARE BECAUSE ALL 5 PATIENTS HEARD THAT TECH TELL ME "ITS NOT MY JOB"




IF YOU KNEW ME YOU WULD KNOW THAT I COULD CARE LESS WHETHER PEOPLE LIKE ME. REMEMBER EVEN THOUGH WE ARE NOT THE LINE WE STILL HAVE SOME "SHUT UP AND COLOR" ORDERS GIVEN AND IF NO PATIENTS ARE HARMED SOMETIMES YOU JUST COLOR. EXAMPLE - EVEN THOUGH IT MAKES NO SINCE TO HAVE YOUR HIGHEST PAID PERSON DOING THE JOB OF THE SECRETARY OR JANITOR (WHOSE JOBS ARE IMPORTANT BY ALL MEANS, BUT IF THE INTERNIST IS EMPTYING TRASH HE IS NOT SEEING PATIENTS - GET THE POINT)



I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE TRY TO DOCUMENT BADNESS AND IT ONLY COMES BACK TO THEM WITH 10 X MORE WORK AGAIN WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO WRITE A 3 PAGE LETTER TO SAY WHY I THINK PERSON X IS LAZY WHEN I ALREADY SAID IT IN THE OPR BULLET.


ouch, my eyes.

--your friendly neighborhood CAPLOCK avoidant caveman
 
ouch, my eyes.

--your friendly neighborhood CAPLOCK avoidant caveman

You must understand that 7by11 is very passionate about correct, safe, and humane patient care. I know her personally. I worked with her for quite a while. When people like Panda-meister propose simplistic, line-oriented solutions for difficult, insoluble, Medical Corps(e) problems, she gets filled with righteous anger. The studio audience must understand that everyone here is critically invested in helping military patients survive and prosper; some of us have different tactics than others...that's all.

--
R
 
I'm trying to imagine John Galt posting to a forum as you do to encourage others to sacrifice their personal happiness (and that of their families) on the altar of "military service".

Do not EVEN try to out-Objectivize me.

http://www.medicalcorpse.com/objectivism.doc

--
R

Here is an excerpt from your doc:

"The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit..."

I'm really surprised by your claim to be an objectivist. This is the exact opposite of your behavior. By your own admission, you have assumed the role of executioner of military medicine. You are also playing the role of the victim and complain about how military medicine wronged you. Maybe that is what happened but the same things happened to Howard Roark in The Fountainhead. He just kept on doing what he always did... He never felt emotion or got involved in petty interpersonal conflicts like Peter Keating, Ellsworth Toohey or Gail Wynand.
 
"The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit..."

I'm not even going to pretend I know what you all are talking about, but I had to respond to this quote. Are there really educated men, who are not promoting some self-serving agenda that believe laissez-faire capitalism works for someone besides the wealthy? Is this implying that people actually believe there is such a thing as true laissez-faire in the first place, given that the government will be involved, it will simply use it's power to help the interests of the rich. Surely I am misunderstanding that application of this quote.
 
I will defer to MedicalCorpse since that was on his site. I don't claim to be an objectivist.
 
First quote: why can't there be a middle ground in your personal practice? Why can't you do some pro bono work, but still stay solvent financially?

Second quote:Why shouldn't people have a right to routine medical care? What would be wrong with that?

Regarding question 1, I wrote, "Personally, I don't think medicine is a charity. I think, like in every walk of life, parts of it should be charitable." Parts of it should be charitable. I plan on providing pro bono work. However, where do you draw the line between helping one person and not another? Where do I say to the guy that walks through my door, "I can't help you," whereas I said to another, "I'll help you." I find that distinction morally ambiguous. In fact, I find it wrong in some ways.

Second, what's wrong with a "right" to routine medical care? Simply, it's that I don't think I have the right to demand a routine medical service from another individual. I do not see a fundamental human right where one can demand someone else's services in routine care. I also think that in non-emergent situations, it is wrong for society to have to pay for someone else who demands these services. The question then is is there a right and wrong answer to that? I doubt it given that the country seems to be split pretty evenly down the middle on that issue.
 
MY POINT IS THAT I FIGHT AS MANY BATTLES AS POSSIBLE - IF YOU FIGHT EVERY BATTLE YOU GET NOTHING DONE- NO PATIENT CARE AT ALL AND NO ONE LISTENS TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE THE COMPLAINER

I HAVE ACTUALLY TOLD THE TECHNICIANS AT ONE CLINIC WHEN THEY WEREN'T DOING VITALS THAT THEY COULD NOT LEAVE THE HOSPITAL THAT NIGHT UNTIL I DID SINCE I WAS DOING THEIR JOB>>> THEY HATED ME _ I DIDNT CARE AND I WAS ONLY A RESIDENT AT THE TIME>>>> NOW AS A STAFF I HAVE THE SAME COMPLAINTS WITH THE SAME CLINIC AT A DIFFERENT HOSPITAL<< AND THIS BATTLE IS EASIER FOR ME TO DO THEN TO ADD TWO HOURS TO MY DAY.




NOT TRUE - I WAS TOLD AT MY CURRENT HOSPITAL BY E3 WHEN I ASKED HIM/HER TO GET RECORDS FOR ME WHILE I SAW 3 PATIENTS GETTING IV'S STARTED ETC "ITS NOT MY JOB" I PULLED THAT PERSON TO THE SIDE AND READ THAT PERON THE RIOT ACT GOT THAT PERSONS NCOIC INVOLVED AND NOTHING WAS DONE AND I WAS TOLD "MAAM THE PATIENTS CAN HEAR YOU" AND " HE/SHE IS THE BEST TECH WE HAVE" I WAS DOWN THE HALL FROM THE PATIENTS AND I DIDN'T CARE BECAUSE ALL 5 PATIENTS HEARD THAT TECH TELL ME "ITS NOT MY JOB"




IF YOU KNEW ME YOU WULD KNOW THAT I COULD CARE LESS WHETHER PEOPLE LIKE ME. REMEMBER EVEN THOUGH WE ARE NOT THE LINE WE STILL HAVE SOME "SHUT UP AND COLOR" ORDERS GIVEN AND IF NO PATIENTS ARE HARMED SOMETIMES YOU JUST COLOR. EXAMPLE - EVEN THOUGH IT MAKES NO SINCE TO HAVE YOUR HIGHEST PAID PERSON DOING THE JOB OF THE SECRETARY OR JANITOR (WHOSE JOBS ARE IMPORTANT BY ALL MEANS, BUT IF THE INTERNIST IS EMPTYING TRASH HE IS NOT SEEING PATIENTS - GET THE POINT)



I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE TRY TO DOCUMENT BADNESS AND IT ONLY COMES BACK TO THEM WITH 10 X MORE WORK AGAIN WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO WRITE A 3 PAGE LETTER TO SAY WHY I THINK PERSON X IS LAZY WHEN I ALREADY SAID IT IN THE OPR BULLET.



Whatever. You're not exactly trying to lead your subordinates up a hill into the teeth of enemy fire. You're just trying to get AFC Schmuckatelli to take soembody's vitals and do other light clerical work. I understand that the standards of leadership are lower, much lower in Air Force than any other military service but the expectations are also more modest.

Don't yell at me because you can't figure out how to light a fire under your recalcitrant airman's ass.
 
If you tolerate insubordination you will get as much of it as you can stomach. If you have a zero-tolerance policy than eventually even your most pig-headed subordinates are going to learn. That is, unless "It's not my job," is official Air Force policy.

I didn't say it was easy. If you'd rather empty the trash cans yourself than by all means shrug your shoulders and say that you can't fight every battle.
 
You must understand that 7by11 is very passionate about correct, safe, and humane patient care. I know her personally. I worked with her for quite a while. When people like Panda-meister propose simplistic, line-oriented solutions for difficult, insoluble, Medical Corps(e) problems, she gets filled with righteous anger. The studio audience must understand that everyone here is critically invested in helping military patients survive and prosper; some of us have different tactics than others...that's all.

--
R

Getting your subordinates to do their job is not an insoluble problem.
 
It's not that the problem can't be fixed. It's that the fix takes so much effort, it becomes an issue of diminishing returns.

My staff routinely lets patients who arrive on time and are checked in sit in my lobby for 15 minutes or more even though I was ready to see them. One patient waited 30 minutes, I thought they were a no-show and was on the way to lunch when I happened to see him sitting there. This happened 4 times in one week last month. I said on each occassion that this was not tolerable. Nothing changed. I talked to the NCOIC who is not in my clinic but is their direct supervisor. He said he'd fix it. Nothing changed. I then said that every time this happens, the staff responsible needs to report to me in my office and explain why they didn't get the patient in the room in an appropriate amount of time.

Despite the fact that they have reported to me 3 times in the last 2 weeks, they see no threat in me. I have warned them about the fact that I'm documenting the issue. They don't honestly care. I've spoken to my flight commander who has also come down on the issue. The result: now I don't get charts as quickly, I'm not informed about t-cons as quickly. Staff don't restock rooms as frequently. I always have to ask and then demand that it gets done.

There comes a point where the return on my investment of trying to achieve some level of not efficiency but of simple diligence in work becomes too great of a burden and it becomes easier for me to do myself.

I can write a bullet, but do you know what happens then? I get strongly admonished to give a 5 instead of a 4. I have to justify my decision in writing to some Chief trying to protect his enlisted. I have to succumb to the reputation of being the jerk attending who then is treated poorly by every striped employee. No thanks.

252 days and counting.
 
Getting your subordinates to do their job is not an insoluble problem.

It is when you have no authority over them:

1) you can't fire them
2) you can't put them in jail
3) you can't take their pay away
4) you can't negatively impact on their promotion process

PB...you just don't get it...

The military hierachy imposed into the medical system just doesn't work like the military unit.

When you've finished medical school and internship, you can come back and tell us how it worked for you, but until then......
 
Regarding question 1, I wrote, "Personally, I don't think medicine is a charity. I think, like in every walk of life, parts of it should be charitable." Parts of it should be charitable. I plan on providing pro bono work. However, where do you draw the line between helping one person and not another? Where do I say to the guy that walks through my door, "I can't help you," whereas I said to another, "I'll help you." I find that distinction morally ambiguous. In fact, I find it wrong in some ways.

Second, what's wrong with a "right" to routine medical care? Simply, it's that I don't think I have the right to demand a routine medical service from another individual. I do not see a fundamental human right where one can demand someone else's services in routine care. I also think that in non-emergent situations, it is wrong for society to have to pay for someone else who demands these services. The question then is is there a right and wrong answer to that? I doubt it given that the country seems to be split pretty evenly down the middle on that issue.

This is all purely philisophical for me by the way. I am not even in med. school yet. I use this site for info. that is hard to find elsewhere, and every once in a while try to digest some of these larger issues. I don't want anyone thinking I know what I am talking about. With that said, wouldn't a national health care system that at least took care of the lowest rungs on the ladder (not full blown socialized medicine) take care of this. If you did get paid to provide service to someone who would otherwise not be willing to pay you, doesn't that alleviate the situation?
 
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It is when you have no authority over them:

1) you can't fire them
2) you can't put them in jail
3) you can't take their pay away
4) you can't negatively impact on their promotion process

PB...you just don't get it...

The military hierachy imposed into the medical system just doesn't work like the military unit.

When you've finished medical school and internship, you can come back and tell us how it worked for you, but until then......

Whoa. As a former enlisted Marine who once got NJP (as a result of a bar fight) and lost two months pay and almost a stripe, you can most certainly do all of the aforemetioned things. You outrank every enlisted person in the military and they have to follow your orders. That doesn't mean that you can grab some random airman passing by on the street and have him fetch you a chart but, and maybe I'm missing something here, part of your tech's job is to take vitals and handle admin things. If he's too busy because you are short-staffed that one thing and you may have to take your own vitals. But if he's just sitting around surfing the internet that's another.

And I had two Marines who spent considerable brig time after their courts-martial for a more severe variation of the "it's not my job" gambit.

P. Bear, MD
Emergency Medicine Resident
 
Whoa. As a former enlisted Marine who once got NJP (as a result of a bar fight) and lost two months pay and almost a stripe, you can most certainly do all of the aforemetioned things. You outrank every enlisted person in the military and they have to follow your orders. That doesn't mean that you can grab some random airman passing by on the street and have him fetch you a chart but, and maybe I'm missing something here, part of your tech's job is to take vitals and handle admin things. If he's too busy because you are short-staffed that one thing and you may have to take your own vitals. But if he's just sitting around surfing the internet that's another.

And I had two Marines who spent considerable brig time after their courts-martial for a more severe variation of the "it's not my job" gambit.

P. Bear, MD
Emergency Medicine Resident

I don't think that is accurate.

In the hospital setting, the enlisted staff (in the Navy) fall under a separate chain of command.....Always under someone in the Nurse Corp.

Although the enlisted person "works" for you, that individual falls under someone else's chain of command.

It was that way in 3 different major commands that I was stationed.

While deployed (in the Navy) as an augmentation team, the enlisted, once again "works" for you, but they do not fall under "your" chain of command..usually routed to someone just beneath the OIC (frequently not a MD, but a nurse, or MSC type)

Now...out with the marines, as a GMO, as department head of a small medical detachment, then what you say may be true......

But out in GMO land...the problems being raised here just does not exist.
 
Things may have changed, but at the old NH Keflavik, my enlisted technologists' chain of command ran through my LPO, then me, then to the command master chief, thence to the XO/CO. There were no nurses interposed. My gripe was that, although I had input (and wrote) their evals, the command suite got the final word and my people were ranked in with all the other enlisted at that facility, including those who did little work, but who did have admin nurses to grease the skids for them.

My going to bat for my techs vs. the (female) command master chief did not win me any points with the front office...

ExNavyRad
 
Things may have changed, but at the old NH Keflavik, my enlisted technologists' chain of command ran through my LPO, then me, then to the command master chief, thence to the XO/CO. There were no nurses interposed. My gripe was that, although I had input (and wrote) their evals, the command suite got the final word and my people were ranked in with all the other enlisted at that facility, including those who did little work, but who did have admin nurses to grease the skids for them.

My going to bat for my techs vs. the (female) command master chief did not win me any points with the front office...

ExNavyRad

When I was in Gitmo..."My" LPO reports directly to the Nursing hierachy....I never saw his eval.

Ned was a GREAT guy....I wanted him to have a great eval....but I had NO say....The only thing that I could do for him was to give him my car when I left Cuba.
 
Let me give you an extreme example: My buddy and fellow Sergeant and I were once out on the town minding our own business. (Really. Don't laugh.) A group of sailors and Marines in our particular drinking establishment got into a small riot and when order was finally restored the Shore Patrol (who we knew, a different Company) asked if we could help them out. We took charge of about thirty sailors and Marines, only three of whom were actually in our "chain of command" but you'd better believe they did what we told them.

You can be in charge of an airman or a Marine and not be in his formal chain of command. The entire military is, theoretically, a chain of command. The Company Commander of India 3/8 was not in my chain of command but you'd better believe that as a Kilo 3/8 Marine I asked how high when he said jump.

So, if the guy is working with you and his duties require that you give him lawful orders ("From time to time"as it says on your promotion warrant or commission) then he can't fall back on that "chain of command BS unless you let him.

It's not like you're grabbing a random airman from the street who may be executing another set of military duties (and being on leave of liberty is a legal military activity) and forcing him to work for you.

However, let's suppose that there was a bus wreck in front of your clinic and you needed some help getting the wounded into your clinic, in that case, he is out of luck.

I understand that leadership is a difficult skill to master and I'm not belittleing your concerns about military medicine. Rob paints an entirely believable picture which jibes with much of what I have heard from other people. Maintaining order and discipline of your Airmen or Marines if something you can have an effect on, however, as unpopular as its going to make you.
 
If you tolerate insubordination you will get as much of it as you can stomach. If you have a zero-tolerance policy than eventually even your most pig-headed subordinates are going to learn. That is, unless "It's not my job," is official Air Force policy.

I didn't say it was easy. If you'd rather empty the trash cans yourself than by all means shrug your shoulders and say that you can't fight every battle.

I honestly wasnt trying to yell - I initially tried to insert my text with yours and did the caps lock thing to distinguish between ours - since I then figured out how to do individual quotes I just forgot to retype my stuff in lower case so sorry if I seemed to be yelling.

I wasnt mad at your inital post - honestly, and I understand how a Line Marine can't understand the difference we face in the medical corps. I have suffered some of the most degrading conduct I have ever seen from enlisted to officers at the Army hospitals at WRAMC and BAMC and once on site at QUANTICO - yes your little marines didn't want to salute a group of Navy and Air Force 0-1's probably because the E5 Marines were too busy tearing down our tents and harrassing us to lead their E2's and E3's- so insubordination occurs even in your Marine Corp .

When a system is broke you can only fix so much at a time -especially if the people above you do not want to get it fixed and dont support you - Again I do not tolerate things like "its not my job" but since I do not write EPR's and I am not in anyone's direct chain of military command the techs and nurses often refuse to take orders - and then ethically I have a choice either pitch a fit that gets nothing accomplished or take care of the patient which is what my medical authority and responsibility requires me to do. There is more to being a professional than just being a hard a-- - you have to ultimately do what is right for the troops/patients
 
Panda, it's not about leadership skills. I clearly have developed leadership skills and have been tasked both in the civilian world as well as in the military with positions not typically offered at my rank and level of experience. Yes, I am bragging because I'm proud, but to also say that I am and have always been told I've been an effective leader.

With that being said, being a good leader does not mean you can fix this system. I take my staff to lunch regularly on my own tab, I buy them gifts for special occasions, let them leave early when the work is done, and I generally always praise them before reproving them. I've been praised within my flight, within my squadron, and by the group commander for the morale in my staff. BUT it doesn't change their work ethic.

How can it, when the military system breeds mediocrity. Whether you're the hardest worker in your flight or the guy barely scraping by, you're going to make the same pay and you're going to receive the same medals, and come Hell or high water, you're going to both get 5's on your EPR. If capitalism worked in that matter, our country would have resembled the Soviet Union long ago.

I honestly have to agree with exmilitaryMD here, you can't possibly understand the difficulty of dealing with this mindset until you've been there.
 
wouldn't a national health care system that at least took care of the lowest rungs on the ladder (not full blown socialized medicine) take care of this. If you did get paid to provide service to someone who would otherwise not be willing to pay you, doesn't that alleviate the situation?

Ahh yes, the fine, fine system called Medicaid. A not full-blown socialized medicine system aimed to provide care to those unable to pay for it on their own.

That's been a raging success.

Take a look at Medical Economics @ memag.com and read how many stories there are out there about practices who have shut their doors to Medicaid and even Medicare.

And so it goes. . .

I can't wait until Hillary 2008. Then we'll all be a life boat short on the sinking ship.
 
Here is an excerpt from your doc:

"The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit..."

This was Ayn Rand's opinion. If you notice, although I am a great fan of Atlas Shrugged, I never claimed to be a pure Objectivist. I just think that reading Atlas Shrugged in Aug 04 changed my life: John Galt loved his creation and his job, but he destroyed his creation and left his job in order to preserve something more important: his honor and freedom. He refused to allow his gifts to be exploited by those corrupt individuals who would demand that he owed them the sacrifice of his happiness because he was gifted and capable. He pronounced the one word which liberated him from their demands for "Service before Self": No.

I'm really surprised by your claim to be an objectivist. This is the exact opposite of your behavior.

Show me that claim. I just said don't try to out-Objectivize me. I am a great fan of Atlas Shrugged. Haven't read The Fountainhead yet. How much of an objectivist can I be in that case, hmm? In any event, show of hands: how many people here care about my degree of devout objectivist orthodoxy or lack thereof? Anyone? Thought so. I consider myself to be a Pagan and Zen Buddhist (yang/yin, respectively), with some admiration for some (not all) of Ayn Rand's philosophy. If she had had kids, she wouldn't have been so completely, 100% self-centered. Also, she sickeningly glamorized smoking in Atlas Shrugged...which is probably why she died of lung CA.

By your own admission, you have assumed the role of executioner of military medicine.

Show me that admission. Basic reading comprehension, IgD. I am a mourner at the funeral of military medicine. The murderers (not executioners) were the Surgeons General of all the services going back at least 10 years...because not one of them had the cojones to resign in protest of the mayhem done to the body of what was once a proud profession: military MEDICINE (not "Health Care"; not "Wellness": Medicine). Their co-conspirators in this assassination were the members of Congress who voted to create the TRICARE abomination while simultaneously shuttering and gutting MTFs, and all the physician sheep who stayed in for twenty years in order to get their 30 pieces of silver, rather than resigning in protest, AS I DID.

You are also playing the role of the victim and complain about how military medicine wronged you. Maybe that is what happened but the same things happened to Howard Roark in The Fountainhead. He just kept on doing what he always did...

Which is what I am keeping on doing. QED.

--
R
 
As an ex Corpsman these posts that complain about enlisted medical staff within the services make me, to use an unsophisticated word, sad. It would be a lie to say that I never had any negative interactions with Doctors while a Corpsman, but at the end of the day I did what I was told. The doctors were not leaders, they were teachers. If I did not help my Doctors with what they needed I would have spent my 5 years taking vital signs. Doctors taught us, and we took great pride in the trust they put in us to see minor illness and injury cases. I always felt that because the Doctors had so much information they were willing to give me, I would never have disrespected them.
Having said that if a Doctor was not willing to teach or if they treated us with disregard, that Doctor received only what was required. I had my share of "incidents" with new Doctors that felt they were better than the military and much too valuable to waste their time teaching the enlisted people anything. There were Doctors whom I refused to call "Doctor", and reminded them that I was well within my rights to call them Lieutenant. I found this passive aggressive tactic very useful when I was talking to more than one Doctor present and called one of them by their rank and the others Doctor.
I am sure that I am being far too idealistic in my memories but I do know that blaming others for your own difficulties is both cowardly and immature. As I’m sure that statement is going to provoke some response questioning my perspective and possibly my pedigree, I ask you to consider this question. If you take away the uniform and the rank and the degree, are you and the enlisted person you are having trouble with complaining about the same thing, a system that you cannot change and trying to do just enough to finish your time and get out? Respect your enlisted people, give them a reason to respect you and don’t take out your own frustrations with a system you don’t like on them.

OK, I am done with my rant. All of you who are much more intelligent than I am, please, tell me why I am wrong.

(Respectfully submitted for your consideration)
 
As an ex Corpsman these posts that complain about enlisted medical staff within the services make me, to use an unsophisticated word, sad. It would be a lie to say that I never had any negative interactions with Doctors while a Corpsman, but at the end of the day I did what I was told. The doctors were not leaders, they were teachers. If I did not help my Doctors with what they needed I would have spent my 5 years taking vital signs. Doctors taught us, and we took great pride in the trust they put in us to see minor illness and injury cases. I always felt that because the Doctors had so much information they were willing to give me, I would never have disrespected them.
Having said that if a Doctor was not willing to teach or if they treated us with disregard, that Doctor received only what was required. I had my share of "incidents" with new Doctors that felt they were better than the military and much too valuable to waste their time teaching the enlisted people anything. There were Doctors whom I refused to call "Doctor", and reminded them that I was well within my rights to call them Lieutenant. I found this passive aggressive tactic very useful when I was talking to more than one Doctor present and called one of them by their rank and the others Doctor.
I am sure that I am being far too idealistic in my memories but I do know that blaming others for your own difficulties is both cowardly and immature. As I’m sure that statement is going to provoke some response questioning my perspective and possibly my pedigree, I ask you to consider this question. If you take away the uniform and the rank and the degree, are you and the enlisted person you are having trouble with complaining about the same thing, a system that you cannot change and trying to do just enough to finish your time and get out? Respect your enlisted people, give them a reason to respect you and don’t take out your own frustrations with a system you don’t like on them.

OK, I am done with my rant. All of you who are much more intelligent than I am, please, tell me why I am wrong.

(Respectfully submitted for your consideration)

in my experience, most of the physicians were liked, admired, whatever adjective you want to give. As far as "teaching", well, that became quite a challenge because:
1) severe lack of staffing
2) frequent changes to staffing (I had 25 changes to my "PCM team" in 3 yrs
3) severe overload on the clinic (doc "real" panel; sizes going from 700 up to 3000 plus) left little room to see all the patients let alone teach
4) Docs, techs, nurses, all getting "burn out" from numbers 1-3 above.
 
in my experience, most of the physicians were liked, admired, whatever adjective you want to give. As far as "teaching", well, that became quite a challenge because:
1) severe lack of staffing
2) frequent changes to staffing (I had 25 changes to my "PCM team" in 3 yrs
3) severe overload on the clinic (doc "real" panel; sizes going from 700 up to 3000 plus) left little room to see all the patients let alone teach
4) Docs, techs, nurses, all getting "burn out" from numbers 1-3 above.

I guess no one said the right way was the easy way. Aside from that, I fail to understand what point you are trying to make.
Your comments sounds like the reasoning that an enlisted person would use to justify his restrictive refinement of what his job entails. They are too busy to get you a chart; you are too busy to teach them.
 
I guess no one said the right way was the easy way. Aside from that, I fail to understand what point you are trying to make.
Your comments sounds like the reasoning that an enlisted person would use to justify his restrictive refinement of what his job entails. They are too busy to get you a chart; you are too busy to teach them.

I do not expect you to gain a full grasp of the situation without being there.

if you think the environment in USAF Primary care allows for teaching, great. I was there, and in my opinion in was next to impossible. You may choose to think, as many others on this site have in the past, that this is all some deficiency in the doc again.

Look, I love to teach. I was a teacher in the USNavy. I was awarded the "resident teacher of the year" in my residency. I currently volunteer to have med students and student PAs work with my at my civilian practice.

I was there. When you have 30+ patients to see, have a staff of 7 in your clinic instead of the 30+ you are supposed to have etc, things just don't go the way they should, or the way you want them to. Teaching was one of the things that gets shortchanged. You can take from that what you want.

ex: if you get hired to build a house and when you arrive to build it you find no nails, only 1/10th the wood needed, very little cement etc......you may be a great housebuilder, but that house you build is not going to be what you had hoped.
 
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It's not that the problem can't be fixed. It's that the fix takes so much effort, it becomes an issue of diminishing returns.

My staff routinely lets patients who arrive on time and are checked in sit in my lobby for 15 minutes or more even though I was ready to see them. One patient waited 30 minutes, I thought they were a no-show and was on the way to lunch when I happened to see him sitting there. This happened 4 times in one week last month. I said on each occassion that this was not tolerable. Nothing changed. I talked to the NCOIC who is not in my clinic but is their direct supervisor. He said he'd fix it. Nothing changed. I then said that every time this happens, the staff responsible needs to report to me in my office and explain why they didn't get the patient in the room in an appropriate amount of time.

Despite the fact that they have reported to me 3 times in the last 2 weeks, they see no threat in me. I have warned them about the fact that I'm documenting the issue. They don't honestly care. I've spoken to my flight commander who has also come down on the issue. The result: now I don't get charts as quickly, I'm not informed about t-cons as quickly. Staff don't restock rooms as frequently. I always have to ask and then demand that it gets done.

There comes a point where the return on my investment of trying to achieve some level of not efficiency but of simple diligence in work becomes too great of a burden and it becomes easier for me to do myself.

I can write a bullet, but do you know what happens then? I get strongly admonished to give a 5 instead of a 4. I have to justify my decision in writing to some Chief trying to protect his enlisted. I have to succumb to the reputation of being the jerk attending who then is treated poorly by every striped employee. No thanks.

252 days and counting.

resxn-

As an active duty AF surgical sub-specialist, I recommend you see about having yourself appointed as your tech's supervisor. The NCOIC of my clinic here and at my last base work(ed) for me, not someone else.

That way you do have some input into their behavior.

My $0.02......
 
I do not expect you to gain a full grasp of the situation without being there.

if you think the environment in USAF Primary care allows for teaching, great. I was there, and in my opinion in was next to impossible. You may choose to think, as many others on this site have in the past, that this is all some deficiency in the doc again.

Look, I love to teach. I was a teacher in the USNavy. I was awarded the "resident teacher of the year" in my residency. I currently volunteer to have med students and student PAs work with my at my civilian practice.

I was there. When you have 30+ patients to see, have a staff of 7 in your clinic instead of the 30+ you are supposed to have etc, things just don't go the way they should, or the way you want them to. Teaching was one of the things that gets shortchanged. You can take from that what you want.

ex: if you get hired to build a house and when you arrive to build it you find no nails, only 1/10th the wood needed, very little cement etc......you may be a great housebuilder, but that house you build is not going to be what you had hoped.

I think you are missing my point. I am not insinuating that anyone is lazy. I am simply saying that one must maximize the resources they are given. I doubt that a few of those 30+ patients you saw every day could not have been seen by your enlisted staff. But I agree with you that I was not in the Air Force and don’t know the specific details of what you were given to work with. The Navy runs different than the AF.
My point is this that it is not the enlisted member’s fault that your time in the military has been so traumatic. Many people take that stance. If you are not one of them, just make your point and stop simply complaining.
My point is not about the military medicine system it is about interaction with enlisted service members.
 
My experience with military health care is limited (2 months on Navy surgical services, 1 month on Army surgical service), but let me just say that I was very impressed with the help the corpsmen and medics gave me (I'm a med student).

I have one question: I've heard other enlisted folks explain this same strategy to me. What precisely did you feel this accomplished? Was it just a cathartic exercise? Or the chance to pick a fight you know you can win?

One other question, how did you feel about your nurses, to whom it seems the corpsmen spend much more time answering to? My impression of my time on the wards was that the residents and Staff physicians were much nicer and respectful of the enlisted crew than the nursing staff was. Is this true, or were my own biases towards the docs clouding my view?

It was a way to make someone angry that had just made you angry, that simple. It was used as a defensive stance; you did not track down doctors to start a fight. You usually took that stance after a doctor had gone to great lengths to show that they knew more than you did and was therefore better than you are. It was a way to remind them that they too were simply a cog in the wheel. No corpsman I ever met thought they knew more than the doctors. This all relates to my teamwork point, whether you are a doctor or a janitor you have to realize that you are part of a team and could not function without those around you. It is best to understand this and become comfortable in your role on the team. A doctor running around trying to show up the Corpsman was usually the doctor that was not respected by his peers and found it necessary to seek approval from those beneath them. Less than one doctor in ten I met was like this.

I did not want to bring up Nurses but since you asked…..
I never worked in a hospital; I spent my time in clinics and the field when I was a Corpsman. Corpsmen get along much better with Doctors than Nurses. Nurses and Corpsmen don’t respect each other. There are literally hundreds of reasons and examples of this which I won’t get into. Doctors see Corpsmen as useful and often proficient technicians, who can make their everyday job much easier. This promotes mutual respect. Nurse, Corpsman interaction is generally based on resentment. Corpsman resent the pitiful leadership training given to Nurses. Corpsmen often like to think their own clinical skills eclipse those of the Nurses around them, this also fosters mutual resentment. I won’t pretend to understand the Nurses perspective. It was something that after 5 years I was just glad to be done dealing with.
 
I think you are missing my point. I am not insinuating that anyone is lazy. I am simply saying that one must maximize the resources they are given. I doubt that a few of those 30+ patients you saw every day could not have been seen by your enlisted staff. But I agree with you that I was not in the Air Force and don't know the specific details of what you were given to work with. The Navy runs different than the AF.
My point is this that it is not the enlisted member's fault that your time in the military has been so traumatic. Many people take that stance. If you are not one of them, just make your point and stop simply complaining.
My point is not about the military medicine system it is about interaction with enlisted service members.

1) correct, I am missing your point.
2) the problem wasn't maximizing resources. the major problem was that there were not enough resourses to maximize.
3) where (ie..on what planet) are you coming from in that me (or any doc for that matter) said that the enlisted support staff was the source/cause of this "traumatic time"???????? The 18 yo enlisted techs serving as "nurses" on our PCM teams were not the cause of the problem. They got to share the same frustration the docs did, the major difference being that it was not under their medical license.

nuff said on this topic.👎
 
1) correct, I am missing your point.
2) the problem wasn't maximizing resources. the major problem was that there were not enough resourses to maximize.
3) where (ie..on what planet) are you coming from in that me (or any doc for that matter) said that the enlisted support staff was the source/cause of this "traumatic time"???????? The 18 yo enlisted techs serving as "nurses" on our PCM teams were not the cause of the problem. They got to share the same frustration the docs did, the major difference being that it was not under their medical license.

nuff said on this topic.👎

I really want to hear how your medical license is being threatened.

If not, take your ball and go home, no one was using it anyway. When you get home tell your mom you’re crying because the other kids didn’t want to play the same game as you did.