Army Hypothetical about security clearance

[DD214_DOC]

Total hypothetical: what is the likely outcome for a MC officer not in training who loses a security clearance upon renewal?

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[155HE]

Total hypothetical: what is the likely outcome for a MC officer not in training who loses a security clearance upon renewal?

You'll probably still get paid: http://www.military.com/daily-news/...loss-of-his-security-clearance-insulting.html

 

[narcusprince]

I imagine if someone was under a ADSO the security clearance guys would just push the person to settle their debts and continue to re evaluate at 6 months. If not under a ADSO then separation could happen.

 

[DrMetal]

Total hypothetical: what is the likely outcome for a MC officer not in training who loses a security clearance upon renewal?

Said physician would likely never deploy, never go operational, might be able to continue in patient care (patient information is confidential or 'sensitive', but no SECRET). The better question is: why was the clearance denied and could the same infraction also result in loss of clinical privileges? These things sometimes go hand-in-hand.

 

[USArmyHPSP]

This has happened several times in the past in the other Corps (Dental, AN and MS). Without a clearance, you cannot be an Army officer. They have been honorably discharged, and if they are still working off the ADSO, there is a day for day dollar amount that will be recouped.

 

[155HE]

At

This has happened several times in the past in the other Corps (Dental, AN and MS). Without a clearance, you cannot be an Army officer. They have been honorably discharged, and if they are still working off the ADSO, there is a day for day dollar amount that will be recouped.

At every institution I've been you need to have a security clearance to complete your SAAR. Without a SAAR, no network access. As such, no CHCS, AHLTA, Essentris, Outlook, PACS, etc.

 

[Incis0r]

This has happened several times in the past in the other Corps (Dental, AN and MS). Without a clearance, you cannot be an Army officer. They have been honorably discharged, and if they are still working off the ADSO, there is a day for day dollar amount that will be recouped.

What kinds of reasons do people lose security clearances over?

 

[HighPriest]

Yeah, I wish I had known about a low-profile, non-career-damaging, easy-to-do way to lose security clearance and then get honorably discharged about 4 years ago. Maybe storing classified e-mails in my basement? No. No, that wouldn't work.

 

[Incis0r]

Yeah, I wish I had known about a low-profile, non-career-damaging, easy-to-do way to lose security clearance and then get honorably discharged about 4 years ago. Maybe storing classified e-mails in my basement? No. No, that wouldn't work.

My concern is: what happens if someone is granted an interim security clearance before accepting the HPSP, and then they lose the security clearance for whatever reason when the full background check is run while they are in school on HPSP and are forced to pay recoupment. That'd be so stressful.

 

[USArmyHPSP]

My concern is: what happens if someone is granted an interim security clearance before accepting the HPSP, and then they lose the security clearance for whatever reason when the full background check is run while they are in school on HPSP and are forced to pay recoupment. That'd be so stressful.

Happens about 2 or 3 times a year in the Army.

 

[deleted480308]

Happens about 2 or 3 times a year in the Army.

what types of things tend to be the cause of the security clearance issue?

 

[Helpful Troll]

My concern is: what happens if someone is granted an interim security clearance before accepting the HPSP, and then they lose the security clearance for whatever reason when the full background check is run while they are in school on HPSP and are forced to pay recoupment. That'd be so stressful.

The $ paid will be collected.
AR380-67
b. The applying health professional, chaplain, or attorney agrees in writing that, if the results of the investigation are unfavorable, he or she will be subject to discharge if found to be ineligible to hold a commission

For sb247 - here are some of the causes for not being granted, or losing a clearance from AR380-67 on the APD website.
e. Unauthorized disclosure to any person of classified information, or of other information, disclosure of which is prohibited by statute, Executive order, or regulation.
f. Performing or attempting to perform one’s duties, acceptance and active maintenance of dual citizenship, or other acts conducted in a manner which serves or which could be expected to serve the interests of another government in preference to the interests of the United States.
g. Disregard of public law, statutes, EOs, or regulations, including violation of security regulations or practices.
h. Criminal or dishonest conduct. i. Acts of omission or commission that indicate poor judgment, unreliability, or untrustworthiness.
j. Any behavior or illness, including any mental condition, which, in the opinion of competent medical authority, may cause a defect in judgment or reliability with due regard to the transient or continuing effect of the illness and the medical findings in such case.
k. Vulnerability to coercion, influence, or pressure that may cause conduct contrary to the national interest. This may be (1) the presence of immediate family members or other persons to whom the applicant is bonded by affection or obligation in a nation (or areas under its domination) whose interests may be inimical to those of the United States, or (2) any other circumstances that could cause the applicant to be vulnerable.
l. Excessive indebtedness, recurring financial difficulties, or unexplained affluence. m. Habitual or episodic use of intoxicants to excess.
...
q. Sexual behavior that involves a criminal offense, indicates a personality or emotional disorder, reflects lack of judgment or discretion, or which may subject the individual to undue influence or coercion, exploitation, or duress can raise questions about an individual’s reliability, trustworthiness and ability to protect classified information. No adverse inference may be made solely on the basis of the sexual orientation of the individual.

 

[HighPriest]

Totally worth it. I did look into the dual citizenship thing. Unfortunately not an option.

 

[Incis0r]

The $ paid will be collected.
AR380-67
b. The applying health professional, chaplain, or attorney agrees in writing that, if the results of the investigation are unfavorable, he or she will be subject to discharge if found to be ineligible to hold a commission

For sb247 - here are some of the causes for not being granted, or losing a clearance from AR380-67 on the APD website.
e. Unauthorized disclosure to any person of classified information, or of other information, disclosure of which is prohibited by statute, Executive order, or regulation.
f. Performing or attempting to perform one’s duties, acceptance and active maintenance of dual citizenship, or other acts conducted in a manner which serves or which could be expected to serve the interests of another government in preference to the interests of the United States.
g. Disregard of public law, statutes, EOs, or regulations, including violation of security regulations or practices.
h. Criminal or dishonest conduct. i. Acts of omission or commission that indicate poor judgment, unreliability, or untrustworthiness.
j. Any behavior or illness, including any mental condition, which, in the opinion of competent medical authority, may cause a defect in judgment or reliability with due regard to the transient or continuing effect of the illness and the medical findings in such case.
k. Vulnerability to coercion, influence, or pressure that may cause conduct contrary to the national interest. This may be (1) the presence of immediate family members or other persons to whom the applicant is bonded by affection or obligation in a nation (or areas under its domination) whose interests may be inimical to those of the United States, or (2) any other circumstances that could cause the applicant to be vulnerable.
l. Excessive indebtedness, recurring financial difficulties, or unexplained affluence. m. Habitual or episodic use of intoxicants to excess.
...
q. Sexual behavior that involves a criminal offense, indicates a personality or emotional disorder, reflects lack of judgment or discretion, or which may subject the individual to undue influence or coercion, exploitation, or duress can raise questions about an individual’s reliability, trustworthiness and ability to protect classified information. No adverse inference may be made solely on the basis of the sexual orientation of the individual.

Thank you.

 

[USArmyHPSP]

what types of things tend to be the cause of the security clearance issue?

For those in HPSP, it's usually bad debt. There have had instances of flat-out lying on the SF 88. Things like do you know any foreign nationals, have you traveled outside of the US in the past five years and such, but far away is bad debt on the credit check. Even then, the Clearing House in Maryland will give them a year to show progression toward paying down the debt. But the students ignore information requests and they ultimately get handed a bill for between $1200.00 and $1700.00/month for the next ten years. This is on top of their undergrad loans and whatever caused the indebtedness.

 

[narcusprince]

For those in HPSP, it's usually bad debt. There have had instances of flat-out lying on the SF 88. Things like do you know any foreign nationals, have you traveled outside of the US in the past five years and such, but far away is bad debt on the credit check. Even then, the Clearing House in Maryland will give them a year to show progression toward paying down the debt. But the students ignore information requests and they ultimately get handed a bill for between $1200.00 and $1700.00/month for the next ten years. This is on top of their undergrad loans and whatever caused the indebtedness.

I will take it!

 

[DD214_DOC]

Said physician would likely never deploy, never go operational, might be able to continue in patient care (patient information is confidential or 'sensitive', but no SECRET). The better question is: why was the clearance denied and could the same infraction also result in loss of clinical privileges? These things sometimes go hand-in-hand.

No denial. No idea what the result will be (probably fine). Potential reason has absolutely no bearing on licensure or clinical privileges.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Since it's obviously not a hypothetical, I'll add details since this is actually a fairly interesting conversation.

My renewal came up recently. I honestly had no idea what my clearance level even was, as it was all done 10 years ago and has absolutely no bearing on my day-to-day duties. I had to keep starting over from the beginning with the SF89, with each iteration consuming 2-3 hours of my time. I kept getting really short periods of time to complete it, and with the tons of additional work I already had, it kept getting closed out because I didn't completely finish it in time. Since I had already wasted something like 10 hours on this thing, I tried to wrap it up as quickly but accurately as I could. As most know, it asks for details of things going back several years, a lot of which I don't really remember at this point. I may have left some things off, or maybe not, I really have no idea.

Anyway, I ended up having to do an interview to explain a few things related to past financial issues. The issues were a few credit card accounts and one installment account that were charged off as bad debt a few years ago, all during the time I went through a divorce and all the fun that goes along with it. Before any of this even came up, for the past year or two I had already started correcting and settling all of that stuff, so all but one account was already taken care of. The last account wasn't addressed because it was really old, lots of inaccurate information was being reported to the credit places, so it was the last thing on my list to take care of. I *think* I listed it on the SF89 as well, but I really can't remember.

That's literally all there is. My credit score last I checked was around 700, and I was recently able to purchase my first home, so clearly I have really improved things. The interview was fine, I answered the questions as best I could, and now I'm just waiting to see what happens. My guess is that it'll be fine. But, I don't really like surprises, so I also want to know the other possible outcome.

 

[Helpful Troll]

Since it's obviously not a hypothetical, I'll add details since this is actually a fairly interesting conversation.

My renewal came up recently. I honestly had no idea what my clearance level even was, as it was all done 10 years ago and has absolutely no bearing on my day-to-day duties. I had to keep starting over from the beginning with the SF89, with each iteration consuming 2-3 hours of my time. I kept getting really short periods of time to complete it, and with the tons of additional work I already had, it kept getting closed out because I didn't completely finish it in time. Since I had already wasted something like 10 hours on this thing, I tried to wrap it up as quickly but accurately as I could. As most know, it asks for details of things going back several years, a lot of which I don't really remember at this point. I may have left some things off, or maybe not, I really have no idea.

Anyway, I ended up having to do an interview to explain a few things related to past financial issues. The issues were a few credit card accounts and one installment account that were charged off as bad debt a few years ago, all during the time I went through a divorce and all the fun that goes along with it. Before any of this even came up, for the past year or two I had already started correcting and settling all of that stuff, so all but one account was already taken care of. The last account wasn't addressed because it was really old, lots of inaccurate information was being reported to the credit places, so it was the last thing on my list to take care of. I *think* I listed it on the SF89 as well, but I really can't remember.

That's literally all there is. My credit score last I checked was around 700, and I was recently able to purchase my first home, so clearly I have really improved things. The interview was fine, I answered the questions as best I could, and now I'm just waiting to see what happens. My guess is that it'll be fine. But, I don't really like surprises, so I also want to know the other possible outcome.

You'll be fine. From the AR - Bold is mine.
c. Conditions that could mitigate security concerns include:
(1) The behavior happened so long ago, was so infrequent, or occurred under such circumstances that it is unlikely to recur and does not cast doubt on the individual’s current reliability, trustworthiness, or good judgment.
(2) The conditions that resulted in the financial problem were largely beyond the person’s control (for example, loss of employment, a business downturn, unexpected medical emergency, or a death, divorce or separation), and the individual acted responsibly under the circumstances.
(3) The person has received or is receiving counseling for the problem and/or there are clear indications that the problem is being resolved or is under control.
(4) The individual initiated a good-faith effort to repay overdue creditors or otherwise resolve debts.
(5) The individual has a reasonable basis to dispute the legitimacy of the past-due debt which is the cause of the problem and provides documented proof to substantiate the basis of the dispute or provides evidence of actions to resolve the issue.
(6) The affluence resulted from a legal source of income.

A description of the adjudication process in I-2 of AR380-67 - a. The adjudicative process is an examination of a sufficient period of a person’s life to make an affirmative determination that the person is an acceptable security risk. Eligibility for access to classified information is predicated upon the individual meeting these personnel security guidelines. The adjudication process is the careful weighing of a number of variables known as the whole-person concept. Available, reliable information about the person, past and present, favorable and unfavorable, should be considered in reaching a determination.

Per the AR and DOD Instructions - Even if the clearance is suspended or revoked the next steps allow for administrative rebuttal or appeal. I know this does not answer your question of 'what if' - but many, many, service members retain their clearance with more serious issue.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Nonissue.

 

[DrMetal]

No denial. No idea what the result will be (probably fine). Potential reason has absolutely no bearing on licensure or clinical privileges.

If you were honest about your situation, you'll likely get the clearance. They're interrogating your honesty more than anything else.