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I can't get a job!
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258 CAP fellows in practice. Not a good representative what so ever...completely biased. Why not current fellows and fourth year residents also? These individuals also now the job market.
Good to see the CAP at least addressing the issue though.
I would like them to address/answer/acknowledge that only 3% of residents get jobs and that is documented that jobs are getting 40-50+ applicants.
The mass retirement has been talked about for years and years, it is funny how someone says it ever year and has yet to happen...it will never happen. (Would love to eat crow on this statement) Pathologists don't retire at 65.
Good to see the CAP at least addressing the issue though.
I would like them to address/answer/acknowledge that only 3% of residents get jobs and that is documented that jobs are getting 40-50+ applicants.
The mass retirement has been talked about for years and years, it is funny how someone says it ever year and has yet to happen...it will never happen. (Would love to eat crow on this statement) Pathologists don't retire at 65.
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There is never going to be a "mass retirement" because people do not all think with the same brain. There may be increasing retirements though. At some point people do have to give it up.
And yes, many pathologists do retire at 65, or before. My group has someone who is retiring in two years (at 65). And no one else is over 60.
And yes, many pathologists do retire at 65, or before. My group has someone who is retiring in two years (at 65). And no one else is over 60.
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You mean there's no pathologist hivemind that will trigger all of the older pathologists to retire at exactly the same instant?
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3%? Wow, I've never felt so... special.
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Where are you getting only 3% get jobs.. it actually said only 3% didn't get jobs.. which I continue to maintain is WAY too low. Not way too low as in there are more people who don't have jobs but way too low in that far too many *****s have jobs.
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BrainPathology, I saw in an earlier post where you said that you are in the job search for 2011. Does that mean you don't have a job yet or do you already have one lined up? I only ask because, with all due respect, you are talking a lot of smack for someone who does not have a job yet. I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything, but maybe you should hold off on the "far too many *****s have jobs" type of comments. If you already have one lined up, then by all means. However, I doubt that anyone here is going to take job market comments seriously from someone who hasn't even applied for a job yet. Seriously, I'm not attacking here, just sayin'....
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I think the suggestion was that only 3% of people get a job after the 4 years of residency. I don't think that's true either, because there are probably at least 5% of residents who do AP only or CP only and then start their research careers. And that doesn't include the few who do no fellowships and get a job. Those individuals are rare because most people want some extra training. Second fellowships may have more to do with the job market or fellowship market, but first fellowships not as much.
Hush. Let's not poo-poo numbers pulled out of someone's ass or interpreted incorrectly. This is working wonders in politics currently - the actual truth doesn't matter so long as you are convinced of the correctness of a response!
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I'm putting this first part about my job prospects because you asked.. not because I think it's relevant to the complaints I make on here. I can definitely see WHY you asked though, I come off intentionally as far more abrasive here (SDN in general) than I do in person:
I haven't signed a contract yet - because frankly it's early and I have 14 1/2 months left of fellowship. I'm not lacking for leads and have already been told that more than one of the jobs I'm interested in is mine for the asking (which I don't 100% believe because the people responsible for hiring me aren't among the people telling me this). My first two interviews are coming up this month with people who have already worked with me and know how I work, like how I work, and like working with me. (on various projects that were a result of networking, being involved with the national organizations during residency - etc. I've advocated for this kind of strategy time and again here) I've also had several jobs that I'm not pursuing, mentioned to me that are available or about to become available, in places or situations I will look at if the one or two jobs I'd love to have don't work out.
I'm also in contact with the military about what options are there. However, even as a last resort those situations are far from poverty; the people I've spoken to who have chosen this option are either very happy or paid handsomly to lie. Both applications, CV, etc are done for those and if I needed to or decided I wanted to I could go forward with that. Haven't explored the VA system or private labs yet if it came down to it, I wouldn't mind looking that way. Canada has been mentioned, locums has been mentioned, another fellowship is always an option - I'm frankly not opposed to boarding in a 4th specialty if I don't like the options I get.
I know there is no 0% in anything but my chances of being without any job at all in 2011 is as close to 0% as I can possibly make it.
<O😛
However, if I was guaranteed to be unemployed in 2011 it wouldn't change my opinion that there are *****s in pathology that have jobs. I only say pathology because that's where I've trained and observed *****s (either through crippling arrogance or actual lack of talent or complete lack of interest/effort). I'm sure there are examples in every specialty though. I realize "*****s" is a strong word but not by much.
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I move we change the name of this thread to "I can't get errrr job!"
Only 3% of individuals get a job after residency (don't do further training) according to a recent article in archives. I think pathology should be shooting for this number to be around 50%. Half go to the workforce, and half go for more training. My concern is the quality of residency training declining because path is all about fellowships.
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I haven't decided yet. One of the interviews is in academics, one is private practice. (Money isn't really a consideration for me anymore... in my scond year of residency I made more money than my mother ever did when I was growing up - I don't ever have to face a week of ramen noodles, rice and beans, and fish sticks, in a trailer park, as the only food rotation I'll have. An academic attending job would be more money than 12-year-old "brainpathology" could ever have imagined) All things being equal I'll take the job with more money (but what are ALL things?). The academic job is exactly where I want to live, doesn't exist yet so basically would be created with my skills and goals in mind and so that gives me a certain amount of control (not complete.. but some) that is attractive to me.
The PP job is in a city with an airport, more money likely, but some of that would go toward maintaining a second home in the city where the acedemic job is. The other jobs I've been told about are also a combination, each with it's own set of +/- that don't quite measure up to the first two; but like I said, no trailer park, no ramen noodles for my main nutritional intake = happy Brainpathology.
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Why should we shoot for that? If you want to be one of those 3% work your ass off and be one. The whole specialty shouldn't have to change just so your life is easier.
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Someone above mentioned the "military option"....I have seen for myself the pay, benefits and expect work hours for these chaps and quite honestly feel it is one of the better deals out there.
If you are in a situation where they can also pay for medical school, this would be probably my no.1 go to for students eventually interested in pathology as a career.
Im actually shocked writing this to be honest but when I see evidence of mil docs signing out less than an hour of cases/day, hitting the gym mid day, relaxing and sipping on lattes for the remainder of the day and still yanking down 120K+ a year with no chance of being booted, cherry pension, housing, typically ending up at 1 duty station for their whole career (compared to grunts and field officers...) and solid vacation. Why would you not do that?
I would NOT say the mil option is good for all physicians, it most certainly is not. But Path somehow is scoring big time when compared to the rest of the crap job market.
I would *almost* take a massive pay cut if they gave me full command of a hospital lab and perhaps a 1-star gen designation🙂
muhahah, how's this: "Rear Admiral LADOC"..that is pimp like no other.
If you are in a situation where they can also pay for medical school, this would be probably my no.1 go to for students eventually interested in pathology as a career.
Im actually shocked writing this to be honest but when I see evidence of mil docs signing out less than an hour of cases/day, hitting the gym mid day, relaxing and sipping on lattes for the remainder of the day and still yanking down 120K+ a year with no chance of being booted, cherry pension, housing, typically ending up at 1 duty station for their whole career (compared to grunts and field officers...) and solid vacation. Why would you not do that?
I would NOT say the mil option is good for all physicians, it most certainly is not. But Path somehow is scoring big time when compared to the rest of the crap job market.
I would *almost* take a massive pay cut if they gave me full command of a hospital lab and perhaps a 1-star gen designation🙂
muhahah, how's this: "Rear Admiral LADOC"..that is pimp like no other.
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I just would like to see pathology residency not be a joke. 3% employment from a residency is a joke and frankly pathetic. 50-50 shows strong residency and fellowship training. 3-90+ shows "who cares about residency" its all about fellowship training. In the current state pathology is fellowships...residency...whats that?
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Most other specialties have an internship before residency, we have a fellowship after residency. What would you rather have? Internship is WAY more of a joke than pathology residency and if any training period is forced indentured servitude for hospitals its that, not any part of pathology training.
If you expect to blow off your residency as if no one cares, looking forward to the fellowship to train you how to be a good pathologist then "you" are the joke in that situation. Nobody in pathology is dumb enough to imagine your residency doens't matter (or if the people on this board are real - almost nobody).
I don't know how many people went into the job market when the residency was 5 years, but I imagine it wasn't that much higher than now. Every attending I've ever worked with did a fellowship after FIVE years of residency. Both residents in my program who were finishing 5 year residencies also went into fellowships. You and I have effectively been given an extra year of earning power to do what we want with by the current pathology residency.
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In a way I think that the increasing amount of training is linked to hospital billing pollicies. let me explain my theory:
With the assumption that most/all hospitals cannot bill for cases signed out by residents, they refuse to allow cases to go unseen by faculty an thus not profit from the procedure. This means residents never have to truely commit to a Dx, and can half-ass every case (maybe on a subconscious level), knowing 1:they will see the case again with the attending and 2: It doesn't matter if they are wrong. This means that at the end of residency, most residents feel uneasy at the thought of putting down a final Dx on their own, regardless of the quality of institution they come from; regardless if they know the answer. This is compounded by the sheer volume of ever-expanding information that currently comprises our field.
I have spoken to my co-residents at my (well-regarded) program, and other than myself, all feel that it is appropriate to do a surgical path fellowship in preparation for the real world. I find this ridiculous since our volume is probably 3-4x what the average resident would see (in fact, my entire class had seen enough cases to qualify for the AP boards by the end of the first year). I do not think this comes from inadequacy of training as much as discomfort at the thought of responsibility.
Speaking with senior attendings, many of whom failed to do any fellowships and yet are "world experts" in all areas of pathology, I am told of the "good 'ol days" where even junior residents had to make final Dx on some services and frozens. It also sounds like they had a lot more fun then as well.
I think that employers have now become used to this situation, where rare is the applicant who wants to practice without a fellowship, so it is expected. This is a vicious cycle, IMHO, as now residents see the trend where all jobs are taken by people with fellowships, so that they assume that fellowships are required.
I think the best bet to remedy this problem would once again allow residents to make final Dx as senior residents, or at least within the current framework minimize interactions with attendings. I have tried to do this as much as possible during my second year and feel that I would never want to do a surgpath fellowship, and know my limits as a pathologist.
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This isn't the type of population I've run into. Not saying it's wrong but the program I'm in now is also well regarded and I'm not sure I could name any attendings who didn't do a fellowship somewhere (usually here, and then stayed on).
Several of the attendings who lament the good ole days include being able to smoke around the microscope during sign out. Doesn't sound all that good to me.
Are there really that many residents who don't care about their work so much that it doesn't make them a little pissed when attendings change their reports and diagnoses? If you're surrounded by residents who really don't care what they are calling cases, even subconsciously, because their babysitters will fix it, how strong is your program really? What you are planning on doing sounds exactly like what more people should be doing to become good at being independent though.
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I'm not saying that at all. The residents here are excellent. I am saying it is a crutch. After a while, everyone gets used to it. Someone takes it away abruptly when you finish training and you're not sure if it's safe to put down your foot, so you think it may help to put on a brace instead of going for a jog. Yes, that's the metaphor I'm going with. 🙂
My concern isn't a lack of good training here- as I said I think everything about this place is great. So why is everyone committed to at least one fellowship? How many of you even know someone who's even attempted to get a job sans a fellowship? I've met only one since starting on this trek- and she was successful in finding a job right away. What I want to know is why she was the only one (of course I am excluding research-minded folks).
Don't you have to do a 1 year internship in medicine or surgery if you become a military pathologist though? Or am I wrong? I doubt they would end up deploying you because there are other physicians they can send but they probably want to leave that option open.
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Only the Navy. Very minimal deployments. Iraq was strictly volunteer, 1 slot for 6 months. But that stopped last August. Nobody is deploying to Afghanistan.
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I know of only one also - and they tried to get a fellowship and failed to get one that was good enough, so went and got a job instead. True story. Wasn't a great job but it was ok.
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I was told that everyone does a fellowship because practices think that you need 5 years of training to become a pathologist. The pathologists doing the hiring did 5 years, at least if not 6, and they want you to have a minimum of 5 years as well. The 4 year switch was entirely a ploy to attract more AMG's into pathology and was made as the volume of information you have to master to be a pathologist increased.
I was told that after 4 years most practicing pathologists see you as just being in the middle of your training rather than completing it.
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I got a job straight out of residency. I considered doing a surg path fellowship and applied and interviewed for one, but in the end decided that a one year geographic upheaval was too much for my family.
I personally know of two other residents from my program who got jobs right out of residency.
I have to say I was fortunate in having a good friend start her job in private practice pathology while I was a 2nd year resident. She essentially scared the crap out of me and lit a fire under my butt to practice autonomously.
I also had several attendings who would let me preview, dictate, and edit a case and bring it to them when I felt I would be ready to sign it out in the real world. Then we would sit down and they would tell me what changes they made and why. Not every attending is willing to do this and sometimes there are just too many cases to do it, but it really helped me hit the ground running in private practice.
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sorry to hear baout pathology. it is an interesting field but sucks how you have no ability to "generate" income and are reliant on being hired.
i compare this to being a clinical pharmacist. most hospitals hire just 1 to do it. you can never work independent and pharmacy has a massive surplus these days.
i dont see pathology opening up soon when speaking to my pathologist the other day. he said well people will retire but considering the number of people looking for work, i dont see it as a solution
i compare this to being a clinical pharmacist. most hospitals hire just 1 to do it. you can never work independent and pharmacy has a massive surplus these days.
i dont see pathology opening up soon when speaking to my pathologist the other day. he said well people will retire but considering the number of people looking for work, i dont see it as a solution
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Complete FAIL.
How would you know if it is interesting, if we have no ability to generate income and that we must be reliant on being hired? That is presuming a lot.
Wrong. I know many pharmacists. All are making bank.
Speaking to "your pathologist", were you? This post is truly a gem.
How would you know if it is interesting, if we have no ability to generate income and that we must be reliant on being hired? That is presuming a lot.
Wrong. I know many pharmacists. All are making bank.
Speaking to "your pathologist", were you? This post is truly a gem.
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wow you have quite the personality on these forums. i see why a patient contact practice wouldn't suit you.
many pharmacists making bank? i dont know what you are talking about and what you consider making bank. check the attitude and ego elsewhere. judging by your posts in this thread you have a major attitude problem.
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This thread should die. It was started by a private practice troll who was doing all he could to make pathology look bad.
Lock it.
Lock it.
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I believe this is the pathology version of Godwin's Law.
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I think I agree with pathstudent, actually. Will close this thread. It will still be available to read of course if people should want to.
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