I don't Want To Start Another War on Here But Guys I Was Just Checking Out Stats...

[pathdr2b]

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Originally posted by hightrump
Therefore the majority of black appliacants are at a school they didnt earn their place in.

Then when these URM's graduate does that mean that didn't earn their way out too? What about when the pass the USMLE's, board exams? Shame on Hopkins, Harvard, Duke, and UCSF for giving out all those MD's to URM's that didn't earn them.

Shame on America! Where's Rush Limbaugh when you need him? Opps, he's in drug rehab!!

 

[deez4life]

"I don't Want To Start Another War on Here But Guys I Was Just Checking Out Stats... "

No, starting a war is exactly what you were trying to do. Affirmative action exists and there's nothing that whining can do about it. Let's just deal with it people!

 

[Giving My .02]

Originally posted by hightrump
""I agree with 2cent

I met an african-american girl a couple of years ago that was graduating WashU with a 3.7 and had a 38 MCAT.""

Right, we dont KNOW anything about a person because of their race. But we can make educated guesses. Being free to change our minds as soon as any evidence to the contrary appears.

But if black applicants didnt have bad numbers then there would be no motivation for AA. The AAMC numbers speak for themselves. The average black matriculant has a 3.3 and a 24MCAT.

And consider this. A black 3.7 38 will surely get into any school she wants, and deservedly so. But what about a 3.5 28? That person SHOULD get into some schools on their own merit. But there will be other better schools which ALSO let her it, because the race factor makes her more competitive there. Where will this student go? GENRALY the better school, the school that she didnt deserve. ANY aplicant, except the very best (who can go anywhere), will deserve to get into some schools of one tier, and not deserve to go to schools of a higher tiers. People in general choose to go to the best school they get into. Therefore the majority of black appliacants are at a school they didnt earn their place in.

Now, if I meet someone and they say....no as a matter of fact, i have competive numbers here. BAM. case closed. But all i have untill then is my intutions about the system.

I have to go, so I am not going to see how you respond, but I know you have the best intentions, but you sound really hateful about the minorities. I don't think you are racists, but I would really proof your messages, because I think you are stating that every minority has to prove they got in based on merit. Well, I know a lot of "white people" that got into good schools with less than steller #'s too. I just think if you are going to make something "this way" for this group of people, you need to realize that there are a lot of people with all different situations that get into a school with less than average stats. Okay, I am late...

 

[Giving My .02]

Originally posted by deez4life
"I don't Want To Start Another War on Here But Guys I Was Just Checking Out Stats... "

No, starting a war is exactly what you were trying to do. Affirmative action exists and there's nothing that whining can do about it. Let's just deal with it people!

I agree

 

[usmaple]

Originally posted by hightrump
But not even AA is so ville as to let someone in with her stats just beacuse she is black. THere is more to it. Its probably a fake.

I agree with this, mostly. Even if Hopkins had an explicit quota (e.g. we will accept x number of black students/year), a school of that caliber could fill it 10X over with black students with much better stats/EC's than this person lists. Either this applicant has some sort of extremely unique/strange background that doesn't come across in the profile, or (my guess) it's made up.

 

[Street Philosopher]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
Then when these URM's graduate does that mean that didn't earn their way out too? What about when the pass the USMLE's, board exams? Shame on Hopkins, Harvard, Duke, and UCSF for giving out all those MD's to URM's that didn't earn them.

Shame on America! Where's Rush Limbaugh when you need him? Opps, he's in drug rehab!!

just because someone can pass medical school doesn't mean they deserve to go to a top 10. 🙂

 

[crazee8]

Only those with a limited, provincial and superficial level of thought view affirmative action as discrimination again he or she based on the issue of skin color. Affirmative action is helping to break the cultural and socioeconomic barriers imposed on African Americans and Hispanics for generations. One of my friends at Andover is an African American girl from inner-city LA, where African Americans and Hispanics aren?t encouraged to achieve scholastic success because the struggle to live becomes greater than receiving an education. Thus, many bright children like her, are unable to understand or achieve their potential because they haven?t been given the same opportunities or encouragement that other children receive. I have better scores than my friend but if she gets it to Harvard and I don?t, I?ll know that she deserved it more than me because she never had the opportunities than I did growing up. Affirmative action provided her with the opportunity to escape the social milieu of poverty and rise above her circumstances?thereby helping her realize her potential. Not to mention the fact that diversity significantly improves one?s educational experience by introducing students to different perspectives and views that challenge preconceived notions he or she may have previously fostered.

Perhaps, some of you need to be more sensitive to the fact that this is not a battle over skin color but about uplifting an oppressed minority group who have always been told that ?they can?t,? and giving them the chance to achieve. If more African Americans and Hispanic Americans become successful, than we are helping to break cultural barriers of the past and the circle of discrimination. With affirmative action, we are taking steps to alleviate racial conflict, discrimination and poverty and become a better, more unified nation. Thus, affirmative action, while not perfect, is currently the best solution for America and its educational system and if you don't like it why don't you try to implement a paradigm better than the current affirmative action policy that will help underrepresented minorities become more integrated in American society? Because until all races reach complete equality, racial preferences in admissions is constitutional and just.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

That's cute.

If AA is truly about helping the oppressed, then would you agree with me to limit AA to URMs with less than $50K in family income?

 

[....]

"Then when these URM's graduate does that mean that didn't earn their way out too? What about when the pass the USMLE's, board exams? Shame on Hopkins, Harvard, Duke, and UCSF for giving out all those MD's to URM's that didn't earn them."

If an URM who got in on AA graduates, and passes the boards, fine. Im not saying we should revoke peoples licences.
Bt showing that somone who didnt earn there way in, in fact, was still smart enough to get out does NOT somehow mean they deserved to get in. I, HIGHTRUMP, applied to Harvard, but ill tell you right now, i dont DESERVE to get in, my GPA is too low, I slacked off and i dont deserve to go there. Could i pass the boards if I went? OF COURSE, but what does that change?
"Show me the logic!!"


"But you sound really hateful about the minorities."

How? Im RESENTFUL in regards to SOME minorities.
But do you think for a second i would treat someone who earned their place differnetly if they were black or white? I dont care about skin color, i care about fairness. Its because of AA that the two have become related. A friend of mine is a black girl and she knows how well i did on the MCAT, so she has me help her study. She knows that with her great GPA, and color, that she could get into med school with a bad MCAT, but she wants a 30, and is going to work for it. "I want to earn my spot like everyone else, not have it given to me" F*CKING admirable if you ask me. And so i tutor her for free, beacuse i love the hell out of her for respecting fairness.

"I don't think you are racists"

good

"because I think you are stating that every minority has to prove they got in based on merit."

They dont have to prove anything to me. Its not like im going to get in their face about it, or come to their house with a search warrant looking for their transcripts. Its not like im am going to exclude them from my study groups or somthing. But in the back of my mind I will compare them to my friend who wants it bad enough to earn her way in, and wonder if this person had that kind of charachter or not.

"Well, I know a lot of "white people" that got into good schools with less than steller #'s too. I just think if you are going to make something "this way" for this group of people, you need to realize that there are a lot of people with all different situations that get into a school with less than average stats."

Right, around half get in with less than average stats. We are talking about WELL below average stats. Stats that only an URM can get in with. If you know a white person who got into a respectable school with a 3.3 and a 24 allow be to kick them in the nuts beacuse that person probably cheated to get in. And are owrse in my opinion that the urm who got into a school they didnt deserve. If someone comes to you and offers you something you dont deserve it can be hard to turn it down. But to activly pull strings or donate money or somthing is far worse, to go out and pursue somthing which isnt yours. Its like the differnce between a cashier giving you too much change and you not saying anything, compared to simply robbing the place.

"Affirmative action exists and there's nothing that whining can do about it. Let's just deal with it people"

Great attitude.
This is why america is going to start to suck. The vast majority of the voters in this country dont even bother to think about the things they are voting on. The just have a knee jerk reaction to somthing and that as far as their brain goes with it. Defending your ideas is the only way to either A) realize your wrong or B) be confident enough you are right to justify voting.
There are things you can do about it. One of us may be a dean of addmissions some day. One of use will surely be on a ADCOM voting. Abrotion, euthinasia, AA, managed care, these are all thigs that WE will be deeply involved with soon, these are OUR issues.

 

[Tezzie]

OK i will say this one more time.

The only way that things can be *TRULY EQUAL* is by having the admission process based on numbers.

Obviously being black or hispanic is not the only factor that the adcom looks at. It's the essay that you write about it. If you write about being growing up in the projects or if you are gay about the bullies at school trying to bash you daily and so on. It is not just the minority status but what comes with it.

Again. If there is a need for things to be equal then the adcoms should change to the European system where the top scores match at the their top choice school and 1 bad day can ruin your entire lifes dreams.

Talk about being fair ...

 

[crazee8]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
That's cute. If AA is truly about helping the oppressed, then would you agree with me to limit AA to URMs with less than $50K in family income?

No, you are being narrow-minded. It?s not just about the level of income. The goals of affirmative are deeper and more socially-rooted and incorporate alleviating the damage done by centuries of patronizing African Americans and Hispanics by telling them that they are not capable of achieving or wanting more. The real goals of affirmative action are to change cultural attitudes and break barriers.

 

[Tezzie]

Originally posted by crazee8
The real goals of affirmative action are to change cultural attitudes and barriers.

Very well said! Thank you!

 

[....]

Crazy did you read that out of a pamphlet or some shlt?

I got nauseos reading it.

"Only those with a limited, provincial and superficial level of thought view affirmative action as discrimination again he or she based on the issue of skin color."

But it IS based on skin color. The question that you answer on the AMCAS to get you free preferntial treatment isnt "Did you grow up in a ghetto" or "Did your parents make no money, forcing you to work too much in college" The question IS
"WHAT IS YOUR SKIN COLOR?" end of story.

"Affirmative action is helping to break the cultural and socioeconomic barriers imposed on African Americans and Hispanics for generations."
No. its teaching people that its ok to fail beacuse someone is goin to bail you out anyway. Meanwhile it is polorizy our culture by giving a whole new generation reason to resent one another.


"Not to mention the fact that diversity significantly improves one?s educational experience by introducing students to different perspectives and views that challenge preconceived notions he or she may have previously fostered."

"oppressed minority group who have always been told that ?they can?t,?

Im saying they can. And if they dont its their fault. Your saying they cant. So we need special programs so they can.

"and giving them the chance to achieve"

AA for putting people into college is one thing. But how much more of a chance do you need? Your there with everyone else. You not in a ghetto or whetever. Your at college with the same teachers i have, the same role models. Thats as fair as it gets. You dont need AA in med school. that is TOO far.

"With affirmative action, we are taking steps to alleviate racial conflict"

Yeah right. AA is the only thing i know of that there is conflict about.

"Until we reach complete equality, racial preferences in admissions is constitutional and just."

Blow me. Untill people earn what they are given AA will always be here. And AA itself teaches people that they dont have to earn what they are given.

Break barriers, what does that even mean? You have all of these abstract terms beacuse there is no substance to your argument, only rhetoric.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

URMs are not capable of getting to medical school unless there are racial preferences through Affirmative Action. In point of fact, 80% of URMs would not be admitted in medical schools if we eliminated Affirmative Action.

Which side is telling URMs that they are "not capable of achieving"?


So, $50,000/year URMs are disadvantaged relative to the normal applicant pool? So much so that they need special treatment? How about $80K/year? $100K/year? Perhaps what you are trying to say is that EVERY URM is disadvantaged regardless of where they come from or their social economic status?

 

[....]

The only way that things can be *TRULY EQUAL* is by having the admission process based on numbers.

Obviously being black or hispanic is not the only factor that the adcom looks at. It's the essay that you write about it. If you write about being growing up in the projects or if you are gay about the bullies at school trying to bash you daily and so on. It is not just the minority status but what comes with it.

Again. If there is a need for things to be equal then the adcoms should change to the European system where the top scores match at the their top choice school and 1 bad day can ruin your entire lifes dreams.

Talk about being fair ..."

Then why are you defending AA?

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

In your AA system, can a poor, disadvantaged white person write a "I grew up in the ghetto" essay and receive special AA treatment?
Would every URM have to write a "I grew up in the ghetto" essay or prove that he is disadvantaged to receive special AA treatment?


What percentage of URMs do you think are disadvantaged?
What percentage of middle class URMs with over $50K income are disadvantaged and should receive special AA treatment?
What percentage of upper middle class URMS with over $80K income are disadvantaged and should receive special AA treatment?

 

[....]

Watch the video by the Westside boys and lil jon on BET or MTV called "Get low"

If black people want an answer as to who is holding their culture back its time to look at the man in the mirror.

 

[pathdr2b]

Has it dawned on ANYONE that maybe this person was admitted because she is a "legacy" from Harvard, maybe had an uncle on the admissions commitee. That's what I first thought when I read the info on her background.

 

[superdevil]

The goals of affirmative are deeper and more socially-rooted and incorporate centuries of patronizing African Americans and Hispanics by telling them that they are not capable of achieving or wanting more.

actually, most of the blacks i'm friends with at my school argue that affirmative action is the DEFINITION of whites patronizing blacks. they'd rather be self-made men and women, much more often than not.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Originally posted by hightrump
The only way that things can be *TRULY EQUAL* is by having the admission process based on numbers.

Talk about being fair ..."
-----
Then why are you defending AA?

You're right. I think she is admitting on some level that AA is not fair.

 

[Alleria]

.

 

[Tone2002]

Originally posted by hightrump
Watch the video by the Westside boys and lil jon on BET or MTV called "Get low"

If black people want an answer as to who is holding their culture back its time to look at the man in the mirror.

You are so ignorant and at least get your facts straight its the Eastside Boys!

 

[tfaah]

The only way that things can be *TRULY EQUAL* is by having the admission process based on numbers.

No...before you talk about eliminating race as a factor of admission you need to talk about equalizing the K-12 system. And if you think that minorities in America receive the same type of education as their white counterparts, you are crazy. School districts with a large white population have so many more resources than those that are majority minority...and that's a fact. The reason for this may not be deliberate, but the fact of the matter is that our public education system does not educate all equally. That is why minorities score lower on standardized tests.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Those who are admitted under AA often recieve better and more well funded K-12 education. Schools like Shaker Heights are the ones producing the $80K/year upper middle class beneficiaries of AA.

I do agree with you that K-12 education needs to set a minimum bar higher than what it is now. Every qualified high school student should have available to them the same AP courses.

 

[Tezzie]

I was just point out how things could be "equal". I disagree with the idea of just numbers. The admission process of all schools right now is the best simply because of the highschool issues that was noted , the problems that each applicant had to face etc etc.

I think the people who are so anti-AA , are just bitter cause they didn't get in where they wanted 🙂.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Do you believe the majority of Americans are in support of Affirmative Action through preferences by race?

 

[bigbaubdi]

For those of you who are complaining - you folks know absolutely nothing about the background of that person who got into JHU and UPenn. For all you know, she could have been raising 3 kids and working full time. From that perspective, her achievements are quite remarkable and are certainly worthy of a top med school. Stop whining unless you know the facts about her complete application, which consists of her stats, ECs, interviews and background.

"The only way that things can be *TRULY EQUAL* is by having the admission process based on numbers. "

Such a deep seated obsession with stats should automatically disqualify you from most top med schools. Great stats alone will not get you into a top med school. Top med schools are looking for people who can handle the academic burdens associated with medical education and can also take on leadership roles in medicine, politics, research, etc...

"Watch the video by the Westside boys and lil jon on BET or MTV called "Get low"

If black people want an answer as to who is holding their culture back its time to look at the man in the mirror."

If you think BET and MTV are representative of black culture, then you are totally clueless.

"What percentage of upper middle class URMS with over $80K income are disadvantaged and should receive special AA treatment?"

Just because you are a rich URM doesn't mean that you don't have to deal with racism on a regular basis. It might be easy for you, as a white male or asian, to say that racism is no longer relevant in keeping blacks, and hispanics down but maybe you would think differently if you yourself were black or hispanic.

"AA for putting people into college is one thing. But how much more of a chance do you need? Your there with everyone else. You not in a ghetto or whetever. Your at college with the same teachers i have, the same role models. Thats as fair as it gets. You dont need AA in med school. that is TOO far."

You don't have the same role models. I'm not sure about your science departments, but at my science department there isn't a single African American faculty member. URMs are undoubtedly underrepresented as faculty members in undergraduate departments. Also whites and blacks don't have the same amount of resources so in college both groups are by no means equal.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Imagine a young black man. This 18-year-old comes from a two-parent suburban home; his mother is a social work professor and his father is a public university administrator. He goes to good private schools, and on a day-to-day level leads a comfortable existence that includes a number of white friends and the same basic acknowledgment of his achievements as that accorded to whites. Once in his life he has been called "nigge*." He was once explicitly denied a summer job because of his race. Once he entered a store only to meet an expression of anxiety on the proprietor's face, and was then followed. He can remember a few teachers over the years who, while well intentioned, obviously had rather lower expectations of him than they had of other students. On the first day of one undergraduate class, the professor told him he must be in the wrong class, openly implying that no black person could be interested in the subject. He is aware of media portrayals of blacks that are subtly racist. In innumerable ways he is now and then aware of being perceived, despite superficial and sometimes even excessive respect, as on a lower rung than whites. Do we spontaneously expect this young man's experiences--yes, they are mine--to prevent him from achieving a grade point average higher than 3.0 or an SAT score above 950? Is this the sort of experience that makes a 20-year-old student turn in a family tree as three months' work on an honor's thesis? Why, exactly, do we expect so little of the black person but not of, say, an overweight Jewish woman who experienced some anti-Semitism and cruel treatment for her appearance while growing up and whose parents and grandparents, like his, endured various forms of discrimination?
--McWhorter

 

[Giving My .02]

Let me just say that I know someone who graduated top in their class of a middle class white neighborhood out of a class that was at least 500+. Well, they were black and as soon as the school learned that they were graduating number one, they were cussed out by a few students because black people weren't suppose to be bright.

 

[bigbaubdi]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
Imagine a young black man. This 18-year-old comes from a two-parent suburban home; his mother is a social work professor and his father is a public university administrator. He goes to good private schools, and on a day-to-day level leads a comfortable existence that includes a number of white friends and the same basic acknowledgment of his achievements as that accorded to whites. Once in his life he has been called "nigge*." He was once explicitly denied a summer job because of his race. Once he entered a store only to meet an expression of anxiety on the proprietor's face, and was then followed. He can remember a few teachers over the years who, while well intentioned, obviously had rather lower expectations of him than they had of other students. On the first day of one undergraduate class, the professor told him he must be in the wrong class, openly implying that no black person could be interested in the subject. He is aware of media portrayals of blacks that are subtly racist. In innumerable ways he is now and then aware of being perceived, despite superficial and sometimes even excessive respect, as on a lower rung than whites. Do we spontaneously expect this young man's experiences--yes, they are mine--to prevent him from achieving a grade point average higher than 3.0 or an SAT score above 950? Is this the sort of experience that makes a 20-year-old student turn in a family tree as three months' work on an honor's thesis? Why, exactly, do we expect so little of the black person but not of, say, an overweight Jewish woman who experienced some anti-Semitism and cruel treatment for her appearance while growing up and whose parents and grandparents, like his, endured various forms of discrimination?
--McWhorter

This is a completely foolish basis to derive an opinion on affirmative action - on average, blacks have significantly less income and wealth (a much more important barometer) than whites and in terms of educational opportunities, black districts receive much less funding than white districts. And of course, the reason why there are black and white school districts is that much of America is extraordinarily segregated. Private schools are overwhelmingly white and in fact, the private school movement itself is partly a response to the integration of public schools in the late 60s.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

No ?race-neutral? factor can effectively substitute for the direct consideration of race in the admissions process. For instance, substituting ?economic hardship? for race and ethnicity, as some have suggested, [would not produce the same results]. Moreover, accounting for economic hardship would not level the admissions playing field for minority and nonminority medical school candidates. In 2001, the average total MCAT score for underrepresented minorities coming from families with incomes of $80,000 or more was lower than the average MCAT scores of whites and Asians coming from families with incomes of $30,000 or less.

--AAMC americus brief (2003)

 

[Giving My .02]

Hightrump--

You have already been accepted to Tulane. I think you are fighting for something and sticking your foot in your mouth for a thread that basically seems to be whining that places are being taken because of AA. Well, your place in Tulane wasn't taken. I think people are showing their selfish character right now, and those are exactly the same people I wouldn't want to practice with. I am a woman, and I know that their are still a lot of men out their that think women have their place.

For everyone else, this was the same type of talk that caused World War II. You might think else, but it had to start somewhere. Hitler blaimed the Jews for all of their (Germany's problems). It wasn't the Jews fault, but they were easily targeted, and thus the snow ball effect occured. People get over it. If we looked hard enough, we could blaim a lot of things on a lot of people. The true blaim is on yourself. If your numbers aren't competitive to get into the schools you want the only person you need to blaim is yourself. Stop looking to others. You don't know them. You are simply putting a catogory on them because of their race. Walk in their shoes for a change, before you jump to such stupid conclusions.

 

[lotanna]

Originally posted by hightrump
Watch the video by the Westside boys and lil jon on BET or MTV called "Get low"

If black people want an answer as to who is holding their culture back its time to look at the man in the mirror.

Oh hush pls, ignorance is bliss
When did rappers start being a representative of a whole group, is Jessica Simpson a representative of all Caucasians/females? GET REAL!!!!!!!!
😡

Fuming cause u didnt get into Hopkins or UPenn, well deal with it, she did, for whatever reason, and you didnt. Venting on this thread isnt doing anything for you, and wont win you any acceptances, neither will it pass any bills or laws!!!

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Yes, how terribly selfish of these applicants who are asking not to be judged upon the color of their skin. Why don't these uppity non-URMs just shut up, stop whining and just go sit in the back of the admissions bus.

 

[Giving My .02]

Originally posted by lotanna
Oh hush pls, ignorance is bliss
When did rappers start being a representative of a whole group, is Jessica Simpson a representative of all Caucasians/females? GET REAL!!!!!!!!
😡

Fuming cause u didnt get into Hopkins or UPenn, well deal with it, she did, for whatever reason, and you didnt. Venting on this thread isnt doing anything for you, and wont win you any acceptances, neither will it pass any bills or laws!!!

Amen

 

[thewebthsp]

Well I think the Supreme Court just took a turn at this -- and that's basically the law of the land right now.

Basically, the Court said that race, for the time being, can be used as a factor in improving diversity, and yes, equalizing past wrongs that younger minorities still face today. The court (O'Connor specifically) also said it hopes this "equalization" mechanism based on race would not be needed in about 20 years.

There's another case in helping those with socioeconomic disadvantage. Regardless of race, I think those disadvantaged do have some argument for "help" in the admissions process.

On a third note, asians today are usually hurt by their race in admissions -- many places like Berkeley (for undergrad) actually have a QUOTA! for the number of asians in their class. I'm Jewish, and the historical quotas against Jews by Harvard, Princeton Yale, etc. resonate within me. It's more than just AA which plays with race, and asians (including south asians) are being hurt. Being Jewish is the same as being white today (unless you're Sephardic or Ethiopian, and most Jews in the US are Ashkenazy), although if it weren't for WWII I wonder if that would still be the case.

 

[lotanna]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
Has it dawned on ANYONE that maybe this person was admitted because she is a "legacy" from Harvard, maybe had an uncle on the admissions commitee. That's what I first thought when I read the info on her background.

Yeah I already mentioned this earlier on the thread.
Just like Bush got into Yale, we dunno if she has connections, so why jump into freakin conclusions. Doesnt surprise me since SDN always has this "I didnt get in because a URM person took my spot" type threads, nothing new!!
Go have dad donate money to Hopkins or something
🙄

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

It would have been more honest of O?Connor if she stated that her ruling was based on "equalizing past wrongs". Her ruling however was that diversity helps non-URMs (cross cultural understanding, helps non-URMs learn better, etc) and URMs. Given this, she said, Diversity is compelling state interest to violate the 14th amendment (much as Separate but Equal and all of its purported benefits to society was)....at least for 25 years. And everyone asked, if Diversity is a compelling interest to violate the 14th amendment now, why isn't Diversity a compelling interest to violate the 14th amendment 25 years from now?

As a pro-AA URM commented soon after O'Connor's ruling: It makes universites sound like petting zoos where blacks are put on display for the benefits of whites.

 

[Tone2002]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
It would have been more honest of O?Connor if she stated that her ruling was based on "equalizing past wrongs". Her ruling however was that diversity helps non-URMs (cross cultural understanding, helps non-URMs learn better, etc) and URMs. Given this, she said, Diversity is compelling state interest to violate the 14th amendment (much as Separate but Equal and all of its purported benefits to society was)....at least for 25 years. And everyone asked, if Diversity is a compelling interest to violate the 14th amendment now, why isn't Diversity a compelling interest to violate the 14th amendment 25 years from now?

As a pro-AA URM commented soon after O'Connor's ruling: It makes universites sound like petting zoos where blacks are put on display for the benefits of whites.

Lets get something straight, "blacks" aren't the only ones that benefit from AA or have benefitted from AA. So your last comment is interesting. African Americans aren't the only group underrepresented in medicine.

Well that is your spin on Sandra Day O'Connor's ruling and I'm sure we can all put our spin on it.

 

[SpongeBobby]

Originally posted by hightrump
Watch the video by the Westside boys and lil jon on BET or MTV called "Get low"

If black people want an answer as to who is holding their culture back its time to look at the man in the mirror.

Ski-Ski-Ski-Ski-Muthaphucka....ahh-Ski-Ski-Ski-Got that- I GOT THAT!

Great, now they're rapping about snorting coke. What a great influence upon their community.

 

[LP1CW]

The real question is about the last impact this has on minorities when we lower the bar for them. I have friends that are minorities and they fear that others will think they got in because of that and not inspite of it.

This is wrong and I'm not proud to admit it, but I met a doctor that graduated from Yale last year. He was black and I wondered what his stats were, I wondered if he was truly deserving of his degree beyond being darker than me. When we meet Black or Hispanic doctors, will we doubt their credentials? We can name a few well accomplished and famous doctors that are minorities. However, does this still impact how we few the average minority doctor? It influences the way I see them. Again, I'm not proud of that, but it does influence me.

My family, historically, being Jewish, have been discriminated against. I haven't felt it personally, but it was something that was very real for my grandparents. I don't have answers, but I'm not sure these are the right solutions.

 

[SpongeBobby]

Notice how the other black Hopkins acceptee is from EAST Carolina had an amazing MCAT score (42!..i'm not saying it's impossible for a black to score that high, it's just really rare).... these were both probably a hoax. Neither applied to all of their state med school. One had really high scores, while the other had really low. Also, writing down "choir and intramural basketball" was a joke.

 

[calcrew14]

Originally posted by Tezzie
How about we turn it to some of the foreign schools system?

A match list based only on grades. Those who have the top grades, make the top schools.

No personal statements, no ECs nothing! Just your GPA and MCAT!

Fair or not?

Fairness is available only in the land of Eutopia. It would be nice though if, regardless of the outcome, the total expense for the entire application process would max out at the level equivalent to MCAT examination fee (the way those IMG's enjoy.)

I believe that all of these years, there has been a lot of graduates from those foreign medical schools practicing here along with our multicolorful home boys. The data from both sets of standards must be available or retrievable somewhere. It would be interesting to see if there is any significant difference between them. 😕

BTW, you all probably know already that it took many (or most?)of them IMG's only 6 years after high school to get their MD's. I heard that they also had much easier time in medical schools than their counterparts here. That makes me wonder if we really have to go the full distance of 8 years here? Why and how does the double standards are allowed to exist? How long do the cream of our crop really need before they are ready to treat two eyeballs or suface of the body? So much about the homecourt advantage! rolleyes: 🙁 😡

:
Talking about lowering the bar, I believe that there are more than just one bar that can be lowered. An accelerated course for some quick guns could mean more spaces in the current course available for slower ones. Better yet, if the action is taken universally across the board, this piece of pie may become so large that all these dogs would not have to fight for their pieces anymore. Some people may have to file for unemployment benefit though. And you all know who! 🙂

Good luck every one!

 

[klinzou]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
It would have been more honest of O?Connor if she stated that her ruling was based on "equalizing past wrongs". Her ruling however was that diversity helps non-URMs (cross cultural understanding, helps non-URMs learn better, etc) and URMs. Given this, she said, Diversity is compelling state interest to violate the 14th amendment (much as Separate but Equal and all of its purported benefits to society was)....at least for 25 years. And everyone asked, if Diversity is a compelling interest to violate the 14th amendment now, why isn't Diversity a compelling interest to violate the 14th amendment 25 years from now?

As a pro-AA URM commented soon after O'Connor's ruling: It makes universites sound like petting zoos where blacks are put on display for the benefits of whites.

I fully agree with everything you say. Good post.

 

[chapinsita]

I am not a URM, but I feel strongly that AA is needed. Everybody has their own kind of Affermative Action, it's not always based on race.

One example: Legacies - "my great-grandpa went to yale, as did my grand-pa, and my daddy, and me"- I wonder if the adcomms even bothered looking at this guy's credentials before sending him the fat envelope.

Another way is if your parents are also physicians. It sure makes things easier. For example, my friend's dad is a doc. He got hooked up with all of these shadowing positions which he abandoned after a few try's out of "boredom." His dad had enough money to pay for his private MCAT tutor, and as far as spending money, they made this deal where the dad would pay him for the time he spent studying as if that were a job. $10/hr. We had a huge biochem test, and while I was working 30hrs/week as a waitress, my friend was studying 20 hrs/week and making more than me. No surprise his grade was much higher than mine. Recently, about 1 month ago, he joined the free clinic where I volunteer at. He got his dad to go in a couple of times as well. When I fulfilled my 150hr minimum to ask the head doc for a LOR, my friend was in there too, thanking the doc for the letter. What letter??? He had barely done 10hrs!!!! I guess having your daddy volunteer counts a whole lot more. Now he goes on to apply and everything is golden on his record, great grades, MCAT and a strong letter. His struggle? 0.

Assuming that most URMs had a tough time economically and socially, I do not see the least bit of a problem with taking their past struggles into account. This is what schools do. If you are URM and you write your essay about your struggle, I hope the schools will overlook some faults because as a person, this URM is much stronger and determined than the white guy who's a legacy.

Before I end this epic post, I would just like to say that instead of getting rid of AA, I think that we should extend this "extra-consideration" to people of all races who have fought similar struggles. This would be the disadvantaged status on AMCAS. A major problem is schools classifying their "under-represented minority" numbers when instead they should be classifying their "disadvantaged" numbers.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[missmod]

Originally posted by chapinsita
Before I end this epic post, I would just like to say that instead of getting rid of AA, I think that we should extend this "extra-consideration" to people of all races who have fought similar struggles. This would be the disadvantaged status on AMCAS. A major problem is schools classifying their "under-represented minority" numbers when instead they should be classifying their "disadvantaged" numbers.

Well said chapinista, though I think it's very unfair that AMCAS has to categorize people this way. Disadvantaged status is more of a continuum and it sucks that AMCAS decides on an arbitrary line where people to its left get that added push and people to its right get lumped in with "daddy pays me $10 an hour to study." But then again, this whole process is far from perfect because if it were, I would have an adcom come to Philly and follow me for a weekend to decide whether or not I belong at XYZ Med School.

Btw... I'm not sure how much of an advantage it IS to have both your parents be doctors sometimes. I was at a group interview and out of the three of us, my two co-interviewees both had mom and dad doctors. I felt like the interviewers raised their eyebrows a bit when their parents were the first thing they mentioned to the "What inspired you to go into medicine" question and it invites a lot more questions about your true motivations to be a doc.

I am Asian, an over-represented minority, i guess. I certainly don't get labeled with any kind of minority or disadvantaged status on my AMCAS, but I feel that my heritage and my experiences growing up have ALWAYS come up in my interviews and it always makes the interviewer more interested in me and what I have to say.

 

[Ms. Dawson DO]

All this commotion...and did anyone ever consider that the profile is SELF REPORTED. for all we know a non-urm could have posted the information just to cause a stir. before i get started back into this AA convo with the same ole folks on SDN, I would definitely be smart enough to make sure I am debating about a real person etc. Personally, while i am sure there are some folks like this, both urm and non, I take stuff on mdapplicants with a grain of salt....as i do with most of the stat posts on sdn. In the middle of the application season, I am sure there are so many better things to do than to debate something that we currently have no control over.

Furthermore, there is alot to be said about the stats....stats posted by aamc are averages...and not everyone's exact numbers...for both urms and non-urms there will be highs and lows. i think it would be more helpful or perhaps more troublesome lol, if aamc posted the mode for applicants/matriculants as opposed to mean. i also imagine that with 11 THOUSAND white matriculants and 1800 urm matriculants, there are probably more white matriculants with 'lower' numbers (by sdn standards definitely) than urm matriculants. if i were a complainer, i would swear a white person with sub par scores more than likely took 'my spot'. lol


goodluck with the application season everyone

 

[....]

"All this commotion...and did anyone ever consider that the profile is SELF REPORTED"

"there are probably more white matriculants with 'lower' numbers (by sdn standards definitely) than urm matriculants. if i were a complainer, i would swear a white person with sub par scores more than likely took 'my spot'. lol"


You sont read the thread thoroughly enough to realize this the idea that the pofile is a fake has been mentioned 10 times but you still judge those of us arguing against AA?

Quite a few people have accused me of being bitter that i have not gotten into harvard yet. This is truly the most insulting thing you could say to me. I really never get angry....but this gets me close. I went through this in an AA thread from a while back before the aplication season too. All I can say is that i know i dont deserve harvard. I wish that the URMS in here with sub par stats could admit it too.

"i also imagine that with 11 THOUSAND white matriculants and 1800 urm matriculants, there are probably more white matriculants with 'lower' numbers (by sdn standards definitely) than urm matriculants"

Its not the below average people that dont deserve their spots. Its the people at the bottom. And those people are URMs. the AAMC confirms this.

"One example: Legacies - "my great-grandpa went to yale, as did my grand-pa, and my daddy, and me"- I wonder if the adcomms even bothered looking at this guy's credentials before sending him the fat envelope."

Legacy preference should be banned as well. But there are far far fewer legacies than minorities. And as the UMICH AA case report evidence showed. Legacy preference was 5 points extra compared to URM status being 20, on a scale of about 100 or 150.

""Oh hush pls, ignorance is bliss
When did rappers start being a representative of a whole group, is Jessica Simpson a representative of all Caucasians/females? GET REAL!!!!!!!!""

Then you must be in heaven. I didnt say the video was indicative of most black people. I said it was a detriment to their culture. Young black kids growing up watching it and having it shape their idea of what cool is. "What we gon do? Act a fool!!"

"Fuming cause u didnt get into Hopkins or UPenn, well deal with it, she did, for whatever reason, and you didnt. Venting on this thread isnt doing anything for you, and wont win you any acceptances, neither will it pass any bills or laws!!!"

Talk about inflamatory? Whos getting personal? you.

 

[lotanna]

Originally posted by hightrump
[B""Oh hush pls, ignorance is bliss
When did rappers start being a representative of a whole group, is Jessica Simpson a representative of all Caucasians/females? GET REAL!!!!!!!!""

Then you must be in heaven. I didnt say the video was indicative of most black people. I said it was a detriment to their culture. Young black kids growing up watching it and having it shape their idea of what cool is. "What we gon do? Act a fool!!"

"Fuming cause u didnt get into Hopkins or UPenn, well deal with it, she did, for whatever reason, and you didnt. Venting on this thread isnt doing anything for you, and wont win you any acceptances, neither will it pass any bills or laws!!!"

Talk about inflamatory? Whos getting personal? you. [/B]

and young white females watching Jessica Simpson act like a dumb spoilt brat, is that any good? How about those that see the Osbornes cursing out their behinds? Or those that see rock groups blazing on tv, or talkin out the norm? Spare me 🙄 thanx 4 the essay though 😀

 

[OrthoFixation]

Originally posted by Giving My .02
For everyone else, this was the same type of talk that caused World War II. You might think else, but it had to start somewhere. Hitler blaimed the Jews for all of their (Germany's problems). It wasn't the Jews fault, but they were easily targeted, and thus the snow ball effect occured. People get over it. If we looked hard enough, we could blaim a lot of things on a lot of people. The true blaim is on yourself. If your numbers aren't competitive to get into the schools you want the only person you need to blaim is yourself. Stop looking to others. You don't know them. You are simply putting a catogory on them because of their race. Walk in their shoes for a change, before you jump to such stupid conclusions.

Wait a minute. Who is blaming whom? I never complained b/c my spot was taken by a URM. What I have complained about is the double standard presented by your post. It is the majority (i.e. whites) fault that the minorities are continueing to be oppressed and therefor cannot rise to the challenge. The oppressor is blamed for keeping the minorities down. For whatever reason, the substandard scores of URMs are being artificially inflated to give preference for acceptance.

It is pretty obvious who is being blamed and who is being rewarded for mediocrity due to bloodline. Current policy and legislation certainly support this PC attitude.

What does the government say qualifies as a URM anyway? 100% black? 75%B / 25%W? 51%B / 49%W? 1%B / 99%W?


Ms. Dawson, what are you saying here? Is this higher math?

Furthermore, there is alot to be said about the stats....stats posted by aamc are averages...and not everyone's exact numbers...for both urms and non-urms there will be highs and lows. i think it would be more helpful or perhaps more troublesome lol, if aamc posted the mode for applicants/matriculants as opposed to mean. i also imagine that with 11 THOUSAND white matriculants and 1800 urm matriculants, there are probably more white matriculants with 'lower' numbers (by sdn standards definitely) than urm matriculants. if i were a complainer, i would swear a white person with sub par scores more than likely took 'my spot'.

Ever heard of percentages? I'm guessing you're not in the actuarial line of work. The bottom line: URMs are admitted with about 20% less numerical qualifications (MCAT & GPA).