I don't Want To Start Another War on Here But Guys I Was Just Checking Out Stats...

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MCAT Score: VR 7, PS 8, BS 10, M
BCPM GPA: 3.20
Overall GPA: 3.30
Area of Study: Agriculture/Earth Sciences

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Originally posted by SpongeBobby
Ski-Ski-Ski-Ski-Muthaphucka....ahh-Ski-Ski-Ski-Got that- I GOT THAT!

Great, now they're rapping about snorting coke. What a great influence upon their community.

Take a guess as to who is keeping that god awful song in rotation.

yep. stupid little white girls.
 
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yeah, unlike university of nevada's agriculture program which rivals mit's electrical engineering department in terms of difficulty.
 
positive7.jpg
 
Originally posted by notJERRYFALWELL
Take a guess as to who is keeping that god awful song in rotation.

yep. stupid little white girls.

Last I time I check 80% of rap music was brought by those kids out of surburbia who thought they were black or trying to be. LOL! Why do you think 50 Cent is so big or Lil' Jon finally going platinum and crossing over? It sho' wasn't 5 million black folks going out buying that music. Lil' Jon has been around for a while now and has never had this much success until the "Becky's" discovered him and thought he was like cool.
 
MCAT: 30
GPA: 3.85

Educational background: minimal
Financial Background:welfare (some would discriminately say Poor white trash)
Social background:abusive home, drug use, ward of the court.

Race: white
Priviledged: Hell no!
Disadvantaged: Yes

BUT, regardless of all the s**t I have been through, that caused me to struggle to stay focused in my life I refused to be a victim. AND MY STATS SPEAK THIS CLEARLY.

You are only a victim if you allow yourself to be. Race is not the problem...it's the mental perception that the individual carries in their mind about themselves....AND NOONE CAN OVERCOME THIS BUT YOU!

Heb
 
I recently was pm'd by an individual who thought I was a "rich kids" puppet for playing whites against blacks.

Let me just state for the record that the point of my post was to state that

NO MATTER IF YOU ARE YELLOW, BROWN, RED,BLACK, OR WHITE we all have our own fears and self defeating perceptions that prevent us from achieving our full potential.

EXAMPLE: "RICH WHITE KID" fears....My dad told me the only way to be a success is if I am a lawyer, a doctor or a politician. God, I just really want to be a carpenter and build houses. But if I don't do this my WHOLE FAMILY will be disappointed in me. I will be a failure. God I have to get in.

Fear: Affirmation of being a potential failure.

EXAMPLE: "DISADVANTAGED KID" My dad told me growing up that I was a piece of **** and could never amount to anything. I really want to be a doctor but everyone has told me that I will never amount to anything. God I have to get in or else I will be a failure.

Fear: Affirmation of being a potential failure.

Does everyone believe that they are damaged goods? Someone made you feel that way but in reality no one is damaged. That is the point of my previous post. Essentially, we all have fears and insecurities that must be overcome. Trust me there will quite a few individuals who may be great at getting the grade but everything else in their life will be a struggle (marriage, children, friendships, money management).

I am done preaching....thanks for listening.

Heb
 
I know of an african girl that donated 22 goats to get into med school. I'm pissed. I had to work just as hard as her raising goats and I have to donate 40 goats to get in.


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Originally posted by indo
I know of an african girl that donated 22 goats to get into med school. I'm pissed. I had to work just as hard as her raising goats and I have to donate 40 goats to get in.


THIS THREAD IS POINTLESS

What's your problem?
 
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please let this thread die.
 
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Terminator IV anyone?
 
Originally posted by indo
I know of an african girl that donated 22 goats to get into med school. I'm pissed. I had to work just as hard as her raising goats and I have to donate 40 goats to get in.


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LOL:laugh:

You really are correct. People just want to b*tch and..well...yep...that's it!
 
i also think that Affirmative action should be based on income instead of race. But to say that a URM accepted applicant took "your" seat ............... c'mon now.
There's about 800 blacks and 400 hispanics, <100 native americans & pacific islanders applying to medical schools each year. That's about 1000 out of 35000-40000........ if half of URM got accepted..... thus about 500 URM MS-1 for about 200 medical school in US = 2-3/class. How is this taking your spot?
 
I?m sorry about the long post, but I feel like this is an important discussion.

I can understand why AA can be viewed as reverse discrimination. I previously believed that it was and thought that other factors, like socioeconomic level, were more appropriate than race. What changed my mind were not only the reasons mentioned previously by others in this thread but also the evidence of flagrant stereotyping (usually completely unconscious) in several clinical studies.

Some examples: Subliminal exposure to photographs of black patients versus white patients caused blinded participants to unknowingly behave in a more hostile manner (1) and cause a more negative affect (emotions). Think of the implications of this study for interviews. One experiment had white interviewers interview white and black ?applicants? (actually trained to behave the same). Interviewers were more brusque, maintained a greater physical distance, and made more speech errors with the black applicant than with the white applicant. (2)

In a follow-up study (which is extremely relevant to the discussion), white interviewers interviewed white Princeton students. The interviewers were trained to treat half the white students similarly to how the white applicants in the previous study were treated and the other half were treated similarly to how the black applicants were treated. Then, blinded judges rated the students? competence. Those given the ?black treatment? were rated less competently than those given the ?white treatment.? (2)

In medical practice, black patients are consistently treated more poorly than their white counterparts. White physicians tend to associate their black patients with unflattering characteristics (such as lower intelligence, higher likelihood of risk behavior, and poorer adherence to medical advice) and do not recommend them for medical treatments, tests, or therapies as often as their white counterparts. (3-5)

What scared me about this thread is the cultural and racial insensitivity expressed by some of the members. Please realize that awareness of culture and ethnicity will be extremely important during your work as a physician. Realizing the possibility of unconscious stereotyping can immensely improve your effectiveness as a physician.

For those who are interested, you can check out these articles (some were used as references). These are only a few of the many, many articles out there:

1. Bargh J, Chen M, Burrows L. Automaticity of social behavior. Journal of Personality Social Psychology. 1996;71:230-244.

2. Word, Zanna MP, Cooper J. The nonverbal mediation of self-fulfilling prophecies in interracial interaction. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology 1974;10:109-120.

3. Finucane TE, Carrese JA. Racial bias in presentation of cases. Journal of General Internal Medicine. 1990;5:120-121

4. Sedlis SP, Fisher VJ, Tice D, et al. Racial differences in performance of invasive cardiac procedures in a Department of Veterans Affairs Medical Center. Journal of Clinical Epidemiology. 1997;50:899-901.

5. Van Ryn M, Fu SS. Paved with good intentions: do public health and human service providers contribute to racial/ethnic disparities in health? American Journal of Public Health 2003;93:248-255.

Chen, Bargh J. Nonconscious behavioral confirmation processes: The self-fulfilling consequences of automatic stereotype affirmation. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology 1997;33:541-560

Van Ryn M. Research on the provider contribution to race/ethnicity disparities in medical care. Medical Care 2002;40:I140-I151

Van Ryn M, Burke J. The effect of patient race and socio-economic status on physicians? perceptions of patients. Social Science Medicine 2000;50:813-828

Kressin NR, Petersen LA. Racial differences in the use of invasive cardiovascular procedures: review of the literature and prescription for future research. Annals of Internal Medicine. 2001;135:352-366.
 
1. I love how somebody always mentions that they know a Black person with a high score much in the same vein that I would say I've had a conversation with a leprechaun.

2. Y'all are *******. Really. The same ppl who bitch about this stuff will make it into med sch, come into contact with the URMs there and not have the stones to even bring this up, much less discuss it. You will smile and go about your miserable day.

3. I wonder how many of you have actually gone into any of these Top 10-20 schs and found these so-called subpar URMs. Fact of the matter is there are more non-URM students with below average scores at their med schs than URM students. If you can't figure out that simple math you need to take remedial classes.

4. Y'all care way too much where you go to med sch. Everyone imagines it is in their destiny to be a superstar doctor and gosh you know, if they get into that school it will make all the difference. Please. Out of each class, maybe 2-5 will ever be famous outside of their own mind, the rest will be for the most part faces in the medical crowd. If you think your talent is dying because you aren't at that school, you are kidding yourself.
 
you people trip me out with your better than thou attitudes!! just b/c you got the top gpa/mcat doesn't guarantee success in med school. some people need to be given an extra chance to show what they are about and maybe during interviews these people really stood out!! I'm so tired of applicants thinking someone owes them b/c they attended the top tier school or was at the top of their class! SO WHAT!! can you relate to people, how is your character? do you possess any quality skills that it takes to keep a patient load coming into the office? THINK ABOUT IT BEFORE YOU START POINTING THE FINGER TO DISQUALIFY OTHERS!!! JUST A WORD TO THE UNINFORMED.:)
 
About 5% of the profiles added to mdapplicants.com are fake. I kill either end of the bell curve (43T, 4.00 Harvard folks going to USF or 19Q, 2.84 minorities going to Johns Hopkins) without prejudice. Sometimes I miss a few. Luckily, it takes me two clicks to delete a new profile, while it takes someone a fair number of minutes to create it....
 
3. I wonder how many of you have actually gone into any of these Top 10-20 schs and found these so-called subpar URMs. Fact of the matter is there are more non-URM students with below average scores at their med schs than URM students. If you can't figure out that simple math you need to take remedial classes.

And what does that show? Your saying AA doesnt exist?
 
He's just trying to perpetuate the myth that AA discriminates among equally qualified applicants. As you pointed out, if that was the case, then why do we AA at all?

Of course, vladtaltos is correct. There are more non-URMs below the 50% mark than URMs in a matriculant class. However, is this a valid comparison? The "equality" that we find is not due to the fact that URMs are equally qualifed but rather due to the fact that there are far more non-URMs then URMs in any medical class. For example, out of a class of 85 non URMs and 15 URMs, let's assume 13 out of 15 URMs are below the 50% mark (below average). This would mean 37 of non URMs would be below the 50% mark. 37 "below average" non-URMs vs 13 "below average" URMs. This is sophistry at its best.

When we peel back the sophistries and misinformation, this is what we get:

ucla-med-97-scatterplot.gif



I wonder how many would argue that this is discrimination among equal applicants.
 
WOW.

I never thought they would let a chart like that get out.

damned honest of them.
 
Seeing that UCLA chart based on URM/non-URM GPA's made me a bit uneasy. Looks like, with my stats, I would have been interviewed at all the top schools and all the UC's if it weren't for the goddamned color of my skin. That idea alone makes me wanna gag but like many of you said, life is not fair. For instance, cops always let me go after catching me seeing that I am a young, rather innocent looking, polite Asian woman in a Toyota Camry. They tend to believe it when I say, "Yes, officer, I am driving home from grandma's..." If I were, say, an URM and male in a beat up old Caddy, I don't think they would buy that excuse as easily. I may find myself getting searched for drugs and withheld for further inspection...all because I was driving home late from grandma's... Between getting somewhat shafted for medical schools and dealing with random acts of prejudice throughout life, I'd rather just accept my Tulane acceptance, go to Tulane, and not fret over the fact that UC's don't want me and none of the top schools have interviewed me yet.

People who complain and dwell on the URM thing need to let go and try to see the greater picture.
 
Originally posted by emily69
Seeing that UCLA chart based on URM/non-URM GPA's made me a bit uneasy. Looks like, with my stats, I would have been interviewed at all the top schools and all the UC's if it weren't for the goddamned color of my skin. That idea alone makes me wanna gag but like many of you said, life is not fair. For instance, cops always let me go after catching me seeing that I am a young, rather innocent looking, polite Asian woman in a Toyota Camry. They tend to believe it when I say, "Yes, officer, I am driving home from grandma's..." If I were, say, an URM and male in a beat up old Caddy, I don't think they would buy that excuse as easily. I may find myself getting searched for drugs and withheld for further inspection...all because I was driving home late from grandma's... Between getting somewhat shafted for medical schools and dealing with random acts of prejudice throughout life, I'd rather just accept my Tulane acceptance, go to Tulane, and not fret over the fact that UC's don't want me and none of the top schools have interviewed me yet.

People who complain and dwell on the URM thing need to let go and try to see the greater picture.

Hear hear for tulane!!!
 
"Looks like, with my stats, I would have been interviewed at all the top schools and all the UC's if it weren't for the goddamned color of my skin"

BTW this isnt neccesarily true.

There may be 20 URMs applying with numbers = to yours with got an interview. But there are 100 non urms with numbers like your too (beacuse there are soo many more non urms applying). So if they didnt worry about race you would still have to worry about competing with the non-urms. 100 for 20 new extra spots.
 
yeah, I get your logic, hightrump. But at any rate, I would have gotten more interviews (probably not all the top schools) by now if I weren't yet another Asian female pre-med. I knew of another girl from Stanford with somewhat similar stats than mine, with a helluva lot less research experience, etc who was interviewed all over the place - she was native American. But I think this country needs more doctors who are URMs. Whenever I go to a hospital in a large city, most of the doctors are white or Asian. The patient population is diverse in most metropolitan areas, so shouldn't their doctors reflect this diveristy as well?

Anyway, a question for hightrump - are you thinking of attending Tulane in the fall?
 
Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
He's just trying to perpetuate the myth that AA discriminates among equally qualified applicants. As you pointed out, if that was the case, then why do we AA at all?

Of course, vladtaltos is correct. There are more non-URMs below the 50% mark than URMs in a matriculant class. However, is this a valid comparison? The "equality" that we find is not due to the fact that URMs are equally qualifed but rather due to the fact that there are far more non-URMs then URMs in any medical class. For example, out of a class of 85 non URMs and 15 URMs, let's assume 13 out of 15 URMs are below the 50% mark (below average). This would mean 37 of non URMs would be below the 50% mark. 37 "below average" non-URMs vs 13 "below average" URMs. This is sophistry at its best.

When we peel back the sophistries and misinformation, this is what we get:

I wonder how many would argue that this is discrimination among equal applicants.

Wrong. I am not trying to perpetuate any myth. I do not agree with AA because I do not see how it solves anything in the long run but at the same time, those who whine about it are kidding themselves about any "chances" that they have lost. People wouldn't be crying blue murder if they weren't slaves to rankings anyways.
 
Originally posted by emily69
yeah, I get your logic, hightrump. But at any rate, I would have gotten more interviews (probably not all the top schools) by now if I weren't yet another Asian female pre-med. I knew of another girl from Stanford with somewhat similar stats than mine, with a helluva lot less research experience, etc who was interviewed all over the place - she was native American. But I think this country needs more doctors who are URMs. Whenever I go to a hospital in a large city, most of the doctors are white or Asian. The patient population is diverse in most metropolitan areas, so shouldn't their doctors reflect this diveristy as well?

Anyway, a question for hightrump - are you thinking of attending Tulane in the fall?

Your right. You would get more, just not all the ones where the average URM numbers are below yours. Its a different quesition to ask....Is AA was gone where would i interview? than it is to ask....if i was black or Am-indian where would I interview.

About tulane....yeah for sure....I would pick it over my state schools and dont plan on getting into the top schools so....
I think ill like NO.
 
Originally posted by vladtaltos
those who whine about it are kidding themselves about any "chances" that they have lost. People wouldn't be crying blue murder if they weren't slaves to rankings anyways.

Simply ignortant.

How can one person get in undeservingly without another person getting rejected undeservingly?!

If you want to argue that AA is justified, fine. But to argue that it doesnt take places away from people is nonsensical.

And what do rankings have to do with it. sure SOME people who would have gone to harvard have to go to their state school. no HUGE loss. But some people who would have gotten into their state school get in nowhere. **** rolls down hill. Letting in one undeserving person, be it white black or whatever, into harvard screws ALOT of people. The guy whos spot was stollen at harvard now goes to DUKE, he takes the guy who would have gone to DUKES spot and that guy goes to georgtown, that guy goes to nymc and that guy goes to the carribean and that guy goes nowhere.

AA may be justified, i just dont know...but PLEASE dont pretend that it doesnt hurt people for the benifit of minorities.
 
Originally posted by hightrump
And what do rankings have to do with it. sure SOME people who would have gone to harvard have to go to their state school. no HUGE loss. But some people who would have gotten into their state school get in nowhere. **** rolls down hill. Letting in one undeserving person, be it white black or whatever, into harvard screws ALOT of people. The guy whos spot was stollen at harvard now goes to DUKE, he takes the guy who would have gone to DUKES spot and that guy goes to georgtown, that guy goes to nymc and that guy goes to the carribean and that guy goes nowhere.

AA may be justified, i just dont know...but PLEASE dont pretend that it doesnt hurt people for the benifit of minorities.

I'm glad to know the good ppl at Duke would appreciate this logic. Some day it would occur to you that ppl reject Harvard in favor of Duke. dang.

and of course, if you'd calm down you'd see I already said I don't support it.
 
I think that the profile is a farce.
 
Originally posted by vladtaltos
Some day it would occur to you that ppl reject Harvard in favor of Duke. dang.

Someday you will try to understand the content of peoples posts.
If you understood the content of mine you would relalize that no matter HOW the students rank their schools, they will all be forced to choose their second most favored school to which they were accepted. The entire hypothetical harvard class WOULD HAVE HAD TO have ranked harvard above the other schools they were accepted to or else they would...duh..not be potential harvard students. The guy who gets into harvard and chooses duke never enters into it.

And if your against it fine, im not even saying IM against it. You said people should not complain about someone stealing their spot. Im argueing THAT point. Some people would not have gotten in either way (me)...others WOULD.


ankitovich I think that the profile is a farce.

I considered that.....not because the data looks off, but because i cant imagine schools releasing them. On the other hand it IS consitant with the national averages of URMs and non URMs posted by the AAMC. And i do trust them as a source. Dont you?
I mean, though it was shocking to look at, I really dont think it tells us anything more than the famous AAMC facts page. AA exists and it lets URMs in with lower numbers. thats about it.
 
the scatter plot has somone making a 43 and another making a 42 on the MCAT. 2 41s and like 9 40s.
wow...
 
Affirmative action? Okay for truly disadavanteged maybe. How about Michael Jordans son? Gonna bump him up cuz he's black? Oh I'm sure it must've been a rough life. Better get him in quick.
 
If I was black, I would be truly offended about affirm. action BTW due to my race. It is everyone saying, "Gee lets give this poor negro a few butter points, cuz everyone knows if you're black, you must be dumber than the rest of us""
 
Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
We are not advocating eliminating the use of personal statements or ECs as factors of admission. We are advocating eliminating the use of RACE as a factor of admission.

Would you be advocating this if eliminating background as a factor did not personally benefit you and your set of friends? What if you had a more difficult life? Eliminating race from the equation is the first step in a slippery slope toward eliminating the human side of the admissions process. If it's ok to eliminate race, then people could make the argument that it's ok to eliminate other background factors. If you advocate cherry-picking elements to eliminate from the process....

If you want to go to the extreme and eliminate all background considerations then we would go to a completely merit-based system. I have known people who have been part of an education system of this sort and they regretted ever doing medicine. It's a tough lifestyle and you have to choose to do it for personal reasons. Considering backgroun helps admissions determine whether it's really the best career for you. It's not fair to everyone but nothing ever can be completely fair.

Please understand that this is just one person. Give her a chance.
 
It's quite revolting to know that a person who didn't work as hard as you to get good grades and MCAT got into a top school because of race. If numbers are a good indication of a person's ability to suceed in med school and be a good doctor, does that mean that the "not so good grades applicant" won't be a good doctor?

On the other hand, some URMs are just as competitive as other strong applicants. Usually top schools compete for URMs from a very small pool (since often URMs with good numbers don't come from a disadvantaged background). But aff action is trying to remedy the failing schooling of minority communities. There are URMs from disadvantaged backgrounds who just need an opportunity to succeed. All in all, aff action has pros and cons that are very hard to quantify.
 
This forum is very interesting, because it juxtaposes reality and the American values of individualism and personal responsibility.

Most Americans subscribe to merit-based rewards, to the idea that one has to genuinely earn rewards. In the context of medical school admissions, this means that noone should be granted admission to professional school who lacks competitive credentials. Arguably, one might define competitive numbers as a 3.5+ GPA and 28+MCAT, along with some measure of clinical experience. The central premise of this argument--this advocacy of merit-based rewards--is that regardless of social and cultural milieu a person can reach his/her native potential.

To a limited extent I believe that individuals can rise above their social and cultural context to achieve self-actualization. There are many examples of such individuals (my father included). However, it is safe to say that adverse social and cultural pressures (e.g., perpetual reinforcement of inferiority) create an environment in which only the exceptionally gifted can excel by objective standards such as standardized tests. This is the reality of America: an individual cannot be evaluated in a cultural and social vacuum. Levels of achievement are dictated to some degree by external factors, the vast majority of which are beyond the individual's control; for instance, an African American kid living in an urban ghetto, where the elementary schools are uniformly crappy and most his/her peers are up to no good, cannot choose to move. His parents decide that. And what if his parents aren't exactly paragons of excellent parenting?

My point is that, until there is no correlation between socioeconomic status and race, absolute faith in individualism and personal responsibility has to be tempered by reality.
 
Affirmative action at private universities? SURE. Affirmative action in public universities? Not while my tax dollars pay for it.

That's the way it should be.
 
Originally posted by twaspatz
If I was black, I would be truly offended about affirm. action BTW due to my race. It is everyone saying, "Gee lets give this poor negro a few butter points, cuz everyone knows if you're black, you must be dumber than the rest of us""

As I was reading through some of these responses, I was a bit perturbed. Not that i haven't heard these things before, and not even for the fact that I attended graduate school at the University of Michigan when the affirmative action cases were in progress... but to hear someone make such an assumption, that because I am African-American, I should be offended by a policy that was instated to assist groups that have been historically disadvantaged on a societal level, well, I'm not sure what to think.

If affirmative action (which has greatly benefited first and foremost women over racial/ethnic minorities in higher education), was designed only to benefit URMs who are "sub-standard", wouldn't it be the case that all black or Latino students would be accepted to every medical school that they would apply to, regardless of background? Wouldn't African Americans and Latinos be flooding every college and university? I think that this is hardly the case.

With regard to the original post, as was said before: we do not know this young woman; we know nothing of her background, nothing of her circumstances. She might have started out with a 2.0 and ended up with a 4.0; she might have made a sincere plea about wanting to work in underserved populations where physicians are needed; maybe she didn't list other ECs that she may have done through her choir (maybe it was in her essay). We just don't know.

When the application of any student comes across the desks of an adcom, there are adcoms that look at an applicant as a whole. Maybe an applicant, like the young lady in question, has extenuating circumstances which they feel may have hindered their progress. Without knowing this person's complete record, we truly cannot make an accurate judgement of how she will compete with students who have better numbers and ECs, or her performance as a future physician.

So try not assume that because a student has been accepted at a medical school that it has happened simply b.c of affirmative action. I appreciate everyone's opinion here, and everyone has their right to an opinion, and if you want to end affirmative action, take the advice of the person who suggested writing to your congressmen/women about it. I am glad that there is a forum where people can express themselves.

But please, please, please do not make assumptions that because I am black, that I am "a poor negro" looking for "a few butter points", and I should feel ashamed of who I am and that regardless of merit, I will always get brownie points for being black (which is not the case). While your comment may not have been malicious in nature, please be a little more cognizant of the overall audience here when posting.

If anyone has responses to me, please PM or e-mail me. Thanks.
 
To a limited extent I believe that individuals can rise above their social and cultural context to achieve self-actualization. There are many examples of such individuals (my father included). However, it is safe to say that adverse social and cultural pressures (e.g., perpetual reinforcement of inferiority) create an environment in which only the exceptionally gifted can excel by objective standards such as standardized tests. This is the reality of America: an individual cannot be evaluated in a cultural and social vacuum. Levels of achievement are dictated to some degree by external factors, the vast majority of which are beyond the individual's control; for instance, an African American kid living in an urban ghetto, where the elementary schools are uniformly crappy and most his/her peers are up to no good, cannot choose to move. His parents decide that. And what if his parents aren't exactly paragons of excellent parenting?

Extremely well said. In our culture, there still is no level playing field. Thus the need for some form of AA.
However, the problem with the current application of AA is that it de-emphasizes "adverse social and cultural pressures," and instead focuses on race. Perfect AA would be colorblind and only look at the background of each applicant individually. Unfortunately, nobody has come up with a practical solution to this obvious problem.
 
Originally posted by evines
...However, the problem with the current application of AA is that it de-emphasizes "adverse social and cultural pressures," and instead focuses on race. Perfect AA would be colorblind and only look at the background of each applicant individually.

If you are black, then you are much more likely to have less income, wealth, and educational opportunities. This isn't just economics though, if you control for income, then black-white MCAT score gaps are still rather large.

See page 24 of the amicus brief filed in the UMich case:

http://www.aamc.org/diversity/amicusbrief.pdf

Unless you are a white supremacist and you believe that whites and Asians are inherently more intelligent than blacks, such a statistic provides strong evidence for the hypothesis that racism and discrimination still play large roles in suppressing the educational aspirations of URMs. If the society is still racialized, then AA has to take race into account as well.

As for the notion that blacks are somehow less qualified b/c they have lower MCATs or GPAs, this is really quite foolish. Despite the fact that blacks and hispanics get into med school with supposedly inferior academic qualifications, approximately 90% of them graduate from med school and pass all of their board exams. This is quite similar to white and asian stats.

Moreover, a boatload of research (detailed in the amicus brief) has demonstrated that black and hispanic med students are much more likely to practice in or do research that helps underserved communities.

Also minority patients are often much more comfortable seeing doctors who are members of their own ethnic group - given that a majority of the country will be non-white in a few years, med schools need to take this into account in training the next generation of physicians.
 
if you control for income, then black-white MCAT score gaps are still rather large
Unless you are a white supremacist and you believe that whites and Asians are inherently more intelligent than blacks, such a statistic provides strong evidence for the hypothesis that racism and discrimination still play large roles in suppressing the educational aspirations of URMs.
This sounds like quite a jump in reasoning to me, but a jump that is almost correct. I think that CURRENT racism and discrimination play insignificant roles in standardized score gaps, GPA's gaps, etc. It is current cultural differences that are more to blame for these discrepancies.
But . . . where did these cultural differences that foster the number gaps originate? I think they come mostly from our country's HISTORY of racism and discrimination. So maybe we just have to live with this imperfect "racist" form of AA since something (I believe) is needed, but no alternative is presently available.
In the meantime, maybe we should debate something more useful, like how we can (as a nation, and as future physicians) overcome these cultural pressures that hold back URM's, because, by itself, AA will never cure. It is only a band-aid, covering up symptoms of an underlying illness.
 
Originally posted by evines
...I think that CURRENT racism and discrimination play insignificant roles in standardized score gaps, GPA's gaps, etc. It is current cultural differences that are more to blame for these discrepancies....In the meantime, maybe we should debate something more useful, like how we can (as a nation, and as future physicians) overcome these cultural pressures that hold back URM's, because, by itself, AA will never cure. It is only a band-aid, covering up symptoms of an underlying illness.

AA is not a cure all but it is a way of finding talent and ensuring equal access for disadvantaged groups. I should note however that if more ppl from disadvantaged backgrounds become doctors, lawyers, etc.. then others from disadvantaged backgrounds will have more to aspire to. Moreover, when people from disadvantaged backgrounds become lawyers, doctors, etc.., then it is highly likely that they will give back to their respective communities. More important than AA though are measures designed to improve the economics and educational opportunities for disadvantaged groups. AA is an integral part of this though.
 
This thing about more than numbers is B.S. How do you explain that african americans get into med. school with significantly lower numbers than whites and asians. We're talking about the average of thousands of applicants here, not just one or two. Either admit that the system is prejudice or believe that african americans have all the great personalitites for med. schools to look beyond their numbers.
 
Originally posted by evines
This sounds like quite a jump in reasoning to me, but a jump that is almost correct. I think that CURRENT racism and discrimination play insignificant roles in standardized score gaps, GPA's gaps, etc. It is current cultural differences that are more to blame for these discrepancies.
But . . . where did these cultural differences that foster the number gaps originate? I think they come mostly from our country's HISTORY of racism and discrimination. So maybe we just have to live with this imperfect "racist" form of AA since something (I believe) is needed, but no alternative is presently available.
In the meantime, maybe we should debate something more useful, like how we can (as a nation, and as future physicians) overcome these cultural pressures that hold back URM's, because, by itself, AA will never cure. It is only a band-aid, covering up symptoms of an underlying illness.

*perfectly* stated. just absolutely perfectly. please, please, read this and think carefully and deliberately about what this poster has said, before being so quick to speak out against affirmative action.
 
Originally posted by Chankovsky
This thing about more than numbers is B.S. How do you explain that african americans get into med. school with significantly lower numbers than whites and asians. We're talking about the average of thousands of applicants here, not just one or two. Either admit that the system is prejudice or believe that african americans have all the great personalitites for med. schools to look beyond their numbers.

Black medical school applicants, on average, have much less wealth, income and educational preparation than white or Asian applicants. The playing field on which whites and asians score better on the MCAT is not level - it is obviously much easier to score a touchdown when you are on your opponents 30 yard line as opposed to midfield (yes I am watching football right now).
 
So how about a black medical school applicant who has as much wealth, income and educational preparation as a white or Asian applicant? Do you still advocate AA for him?
 
Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
So how about a black medical school applicant who has as much wealth, income and educational preparation as a white or Asian applicant? Do you still advocate AA for him?

then he would not be a disadvantaged applicant and thus i do not believe the school would apply AA on him/her.

but in general compared to the white and asian populations...the % of african americans that come from middle to uppermiddle class is not very high.
 
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