I don't Want To Start Another War on Here But Guys I Was Just Checking Out Stats...

[Ryo-Ohki]

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So schools do not apply AA to rich, advantaged URMs? What exactly was the AAMC trying to say on page 24 of their Americus brief?

 

[bigbaubdi]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
So how about a black medical school applicant who has as much wealth, income and educational preparation as a white or Asian applicant? Do you still advocate AA for him?

jlee is absolutely correct. People always bring up this hypothetical case but on average black medical school applicants have substantially lower incomes than white applicants.

Also the effects of racism and discrimination are tough to quantify - how could you possibly take into account the effects of not having enough role models (there are extremely small numbers of black faculty members and physicians)? How can you take into account the effects of prejudicial attitudes or stereotypes?

Also you have to consider that even if a black student is well off - how is he/she compared to his/her peers at his school? Often times, good public/private schools can also be stratified by income/ethnicity. The black student might be the only black student in the school and he/she might be substantially less well off than his/her peers.

Also the rich black applicant is not isolated from society - more often than not, people don't make distinctions between rich and poor blacks. Negative portrayals of blacks in society and the media can have unquantifiable impacts on academic success. Take a look at Claude Steele's work for example.

I found a small snippet of some of his research online:

http://www.umich.edu/~urel/admissions/legal/expert/steele.html

"My research, and that of my colleagues, has isolated a factor that can depress the standardized test performance of minority students--a factor we call stereotype threat. This refers to the experience of being in a situation where one recognizes that a negative stereotype about one's group is applicable to oneself. When this happens, one knows that one could be judged or treated in terms of that stereotype, or that one could inadvertently do something that would confirm it. In situations where one cares very much about one's performance or related outcomes--as in the case of serious students taking the SAT--this threat of being negatively stereotyped can be upsetting and distracting. Our research confirms that when this threat occurs in the midst of taking a high stakes standardized test, it directly interferes with performance.

In matters of race we often assume that once a situation is objectively the same for different groups, that it is experienced the same by each group. This assumption might seem especially reasonable in the case of "standardized" cognitive tests. But for Black students, unlike White students, the experience of difficulty on the test makes the negative stereotype about their group relevant as an interpretation of their performance, and of them. Thus they know as they meet frustration that they are especially likely to be seen through the lens of the stereotype as having limited ability. For those Black students who care very much about performing well, this is an extra intimidation not experienced by groups not stereotyped in this way. And it is a serious intimidation, implying, as it does, that they may not belong in walks of life where the tested abilities are important, walks of life in which they are heavily invested. Like many pressures, it may not be fully conscious, but it may be enough to impair their best thinking.

To test this idea, Joshua Aronson and I asked Black and White Stanford students into our laboratory and, one at a time, gave them a very difficult 30-minute verbal test, the items of which came from the advanced Graduate Record Examination in literature. The bulk of these students were sophomores, which meant that the test would be difficult for them--precisely the feature that we reasoned would make this simple testing situation different for our Black participants than for our White participants. We told each student that we were testing ability.

Black students performed dramatically worse than White students on the test. As we had statistically equated both groups on ability level, the differences in performance were not because the Black students had weaker skills than the White students. Something else was involved. Before we could confirm that that "something else" was stereotype threat, we had to control for the possibility that the Black students performed worse than the White students because they were less motivated or because their skills could be somehow less easily extrapolated to the advanced material of this test. We concluded that if stereotype threat and not something about these students themselves had caused their poorer test performance, then doing something that would reduce this threat during the test should allow their performance to improve, to go up to the level of equally capable White students. We devised a simple way to test this: We presented another group of Black and White sophomores, again statistically equated on ability level, the same test we had used before--not as a test of ability, but as a "problem-solving" task that had nothing to do with ability. This made the stereotype about Blacks' ability irrelevant to their performance on the task since, ostensibly, the task did not measure ability. A simple instruction, yes, but it profoundly changed the meaning of the situation. It told Black participants that the racial stereotype about their ability was irrelevant to their performance on this particular task. In the stroke of an instruction, the "stereotype spotlight," as psychologist Bill Cross once called it, was turned off.

As a result, Black students' performance on this test matched the performance of equally qualified Whites. With the stereotype spotlight on, Blacks performed dramatically worse than Whites; with it off, they performed the same. Thus, stereotype threat of the sort that we argue characterizes the daily experiences of Black students on predominantly White campuses and in a predominantly White society, can directly affect important intellectual performances such as standardized test performance.

But it has broader effects too. Stereotype threat follows its targets onto campus, affecting behaviors of theirs that are as varied as participating in class, seeking help from faculty, contact with students in other groups, and so on. And as it becomes a chronic feature of one's school environment, it can cause what we have called "disidentification"; the realignment of one's self-concept and values so that one's self-regard no longer depends on how well one does in that environment. Disidentification relieves the pain of stereotype threat by breaking identification with the part of life where the pain occurs, which necessarily includes a loss of motivation to succeed in that part of life. When school is the part of life where stereotype threat is felt--as for women in advanced math or African Americans in all areas--disidentification can be a costly and life-altering adaptation. "

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Originally posted by bigbaubdi
Also the rich black applicant is not isolated from society - more often than not, people don't make distinctions between rich and poor blacks. Negative portrayals of blacks in society and the media can have unquantifiable impacts on academic success.

So we should award AA regardless of wealth, income and educational preparation. It sounds like you are saying we should practice AA on all blacks because of the inherent racism in society. If so, being economically disadvantaged is irrelevant.

Do you think the lowering of standards for all blacks through AA contributes to the stereotype that blacks need lower standards to get in? Do you think this contributes to the stereotype threat?

 

[bigbaubdi]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
...It sounds like you are saying we should practice AA on all blacks because of the inherent racism in society. If so, being economically disadvantaged is irrelevant.

Do you think the lowering of standards for all blacks through AA contributes to the stereotype that blacks need lower standards to get in? Do you think this contributes to the stereotype threat?

As long as race still matters in society, then race should still be used as one of many factors in determining disadvantaged status including gender, economics, disabilities, etc...

Stereotype threat, according to Steele, "refers to the experience of being in a situation where one recognizes that a negative stereotype about one's group is applicable to oneself." This is particularly harmful in "situations where one cares very much about one's performance or related outcomes--as in the case of serious students taking the SAT--this threat of being negatively stereotyped can be upsetting and distracting. "

The real problem is when ppl equate MCAT/SAT/LSAT/GPA scores with "ability" and with academic "standards." By constantly harping on disparities in MCAT and GPA statistics, you are implying that black med students are less qualified and capable of handling academic work as white or Asian students (black and white graduation rates and pass rates for the board exams are quite similar). And that is the root cause of stereotype threat.

And in fact, Steele's research supports my argument that middle or upper class blacks can often face racial stereotypes that can in fact be worse than those faced by lower class blacks:

"The characteristics that expose this vanguard to the pressure of stereotype threat is not weaker academic identity and skills, but stronger academic identity and skills. They have long seen themselves as good students, better than most other people. But led into the domain by their strengths, they pay an extra tax on their investment there, a "pioneer tax," if you will, of worry and vigilance that their futures will be compromised by the ways society perceives and treats their group. And it is paid everyday, in every stereotype-relevant situation. Recent research from our laboratory shows that this tax has a physiological cost. Black students performing a cognitive task under stereotype threat had elevated blood pressure.

This finding raises another point: Being a minority student from the middle-class is no escape from stereotype threat and its effect on standardized test performance or performance in higher education more generally. In the American mind we have come to view the disadvantages associated with being Black, for example, as disadvantages of social and economic resources and opportunity. This assumption is often taken to imply its obverse: That is, if you are Black and come from a home that has achieved middle-class status, your experiences and perspectives are no longer significantly affected by race. Our research shows quite clearly that this is not so. In fact, if being middle-class gave you the resources that helped you identify with school achievement, ironically, it may lead you to experience stereotype threat even more keenly. It is investment in the domain of schooling--often aided by the best resources and wishes of middle-class parents--that can make one, at the point of reaching the difficult items on the SAT, experience the distracting alarm of stereotype threat. "

 

[pathdr2b]

I guess I'm wondering if anyone saw this profile on mdapplicants:

Age: 25
Gender: Male
Ethnicity: Caucasian
Home State: UT

Application Year: 2003
MCAT Score: VR 10, PS 7, BS 8, R
BCPM GPA: 3.88
Overall GPA: 3.84

Interviewed, Accepted
Harvard University
University of Utah
Vanderbilt University

Summary of Application Process:
I didn't give up despite the 25 on the MCAT and I just got into Vanderbilt, Utah, and HARVARD!


I wonder if any of you think this white guy deserved his acceptance at Harvard based on similar stats you all have crucified the URM for having. I for one, not only think he deserved his acceptance, but ****, I think I'll add Harvard to my list of schools to apply to since my stats are much better than his😉

 

[....]

lord........

 

[rmp]

Spongebobby

"Great, now they're rapping about snorting coke."

Dude, they're not rapping about snorting. LOL, OTF ( on the floor), ha ha.

 

[rmp]

truth hurt?

 

[OrthoFixation]

Originally posted by bigbaubdi
The real problem is when ppl equate MCAT/SAT/LSAT/GPA scores with "ability" and with academic "standards." By constantly harping on disparities in MCAT and GPA statistics, you are implying that black med students are less qualified and capable of handling academic work as white or Asian students (black and white graduation rates and pass rates for the board exams are quite similar). And that is the root cause of stereotype threat.

By the application system that is currently in place, URM's are less qualified. Don't blame me, blame the system.

What I conclude from your post (assuming graduation and pass rates on board exams are the same?) is that MCAT and GPA are not the predictor of school success that everyone makes it out to be. I also know that schools want 100% of their people to make it all the way to the goal (graduation), which includes a high board pass rate. This reflects on their teaching and their institution. The drop out rate of med school is extremely low.

If MCAT/GPA are not true predictors of success, then many whites and asians are indeed being discriminated against. The bar has been lowered for URMs. This cannot be argued. Therefore, utililzing the system that we all must face and the performance indicators utilized, URMs (as a group) are less qualified. Certainly, exceptions do exist on both sides of this coin. It is unfortunate that URMs that have met the performance challenges will be potentially judged as underachieving. But when the group as a whole is less qualified (per the system in place), resentment and judgement is the natural result. It is no different than some Richie Rich getting in with substandard parameters because Daddy just donated $10,000,000. He will be viewed differently.

I find it funny that many schools support a URM tutoring program. If that's not racist, I don't know what would qualify. You can bet your a$$ that if I felt that this program at XYZ school would benefit me and I wanted the help, they would not keep me out. Either that or I would be getting a substantial settlement offer.

 

[....]

Originally posted by rmp
High trump

Be honest with yourself don't you think for just a minute you stereotyped an entire race of people. Who do you think buys that music. Lil John didn't hit the top of the charts until the majority started listening. He has been out for a decade. So obviously black people weren't buying him. So to say he represents black people is wrong because most blacks with half a brain don't buy that garbage.

Listen goofball, I dont even know what your ranting TOS violation of a characher attack was about. If all you have a problem with is this post of mine...

Watch the video by the Westside boys and lil jon on BET or MTV called "Get low"

If black people want an answer as to who is holding their culture back its time to look at the man in the mirror.

then you are overeacting.

The first question is....aside from the fact that its only a video ect....DO YOU BELIVE THAT THE IMAGES ARE NEGATIVE? Do you think the people in the video are acting poorly? If NO then...I dont know what to say...If Yes then read the following.

I dont belive all black people are like this, that would be insane.
What i do belive is that images like those give non-blacks negative impressions (just like the KKK gives people bad impressions about white people) and those impressions serve to reinforce stereotypes. JUSTLY OR UNJUSTLY!!!!!! it doesnt matter. It DOES hold black culture back by reinforing negative stereotypes.

Also, it has a negative influence on children. It glorifies acting like a fool....HECK THERE IS EVEN A SONG CALLED what else? ACT A FOOL!!!

I love rap and I like the songs i mentioned. But im not talking about me here...Im talking about the effect of those videos on the level of respect black people get from others and themselves. I think its negative. How could it NOT be? ACT A FOOL!!

and enough with the lame insults.....that impress anyone either. A well thought out carfully described argument might.

 

[....]

"I tried to get out...but they keep pulling me back in"


what movie is that from, anyone?

 

[mmz6]

hey...

dont know if someone pointed this out or not...
but maybe that pretty extreme profile is not real...
and maybe ppls should relax.


chill.

peace,
mmz6

 

[NYCheartlMD]

OK. don't you guys think that you might be becoming a bit rude. I was a fine arts major and I actually found that you be harder than the science classes. IT is quite a bit different way of thinking and expressing yourself. I did not have a formal thesis but I did my honors work on the development of feminist though in post 1960's art-- a topic that combines the fine arts with a humanities issue and has a bearing on contemporary society and possibly even medicine.

BTW, I agree that the decision on this specific applicant might be partially due to color or connections. I had a 3.7 overall gpa from UCLA (3.64 science), 26MCAT (English is my third language), ok extracurricular, not an easy life (but a quality that aspired my dedication to medicine) and I did not even get interviews for 2 med application cycles. Oh, yes-- I am white.

But you know what the point is-- I didn't give up. I went for my master's have amazing work and extracurricular activities, as well as a more mature and fresh prospective. I also retook the MCAT in August for the fourth time and although it didn?t help much... My applications have been complete for 2 1/2 weeks and i have 4 interviews. OK, they are not at Hopkins or Harvard (i didn?t bother to apply this time-- i couldn?t even apply to HArvard) but i feel that the interviews that i have are an indication that if one is really committed one could raise above the circumstances.

And having said all that. May be I am better qualified than the girl you are discussing. And may be I wish I was her, and may be that had to do with the color of my skin (BTW, i am white but my ethnic heritage is considered a minority at some parts of the world), but the bottom line is overall life is not fair-- it is important that one raises above that and fights for their own accomplishments instead of whining.