I think the comlex should be discontinued

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nowanmd

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I'm an attending MD. Since DOs can take the USMLE and can get board certified by ABMS - I think alot of money and wasted time would be saved if DOs took only USMLE and an osteopathic (manipulation) supplement exam
 
I think there are quite a few people on this board who agree with you.
 
preDoGuy24 said:
I think there are quite a few people on this board who agree with you.
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I would agree with you, but I am sure that there is a certain DO national organization that would never want to do that. Kinda like not recognizing my board certification through the ABR, which IMO was harder than the AOBR.
 
agree. And with one less set of boards to study for (and lets be honest... they're two very different tests), I bet you would see the first time pass rate for DO's jump a bit
 
We should have a choice of which test we want to sit for. It's stupid for people who want to go ACGME to spend more time and more money on the COMLEX in addition to the USMLE
 
I agree. The USMLE should be the only test, DOs with a separate OMM portion. It would be just like classes now... study for the real ones and wait until the very last second and cram for OMM.
 
musclemilk619 said:
We should have a choice of which test we want to sit for. It's stupid for people who want to go ACGME to spend more time and more money on the COMLEX in addition to the USMLE
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is it stupid, or the greatest scam ever by the aoa?
 
irJanus said:
agree. And with one less set of boards to study for (and lets be honest... they're two very different tests), I bet you would see the first time pass rate for DO's jump a bit
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Not to derail the thread, but a quick question... If they are such different tests, how does one go about studying?
 
same basics (biochem, phys, path, pharm, ect) which makes them comparable tests on a base level... but in terms of question structure and approach, vastly different. Where USMLE will give you a decent size vignette and ask the student to dig two to three levels of thought deep, the COMLEX presents a vague, 1-2 sentence question requiring the reader to make assumptions about the authors intent and THEN answer the question. Sprinkle in some OMM into the mix, and what you have are two VERY different examinations.

I only took COMLEX but did all of UWORLD. The difference in question structure is something everyone comments on and it's really what makes it so difficult to take both. You need to be in two different frames of mind. I'm totally in favor of a single, benchmark test.
 
DrMaximus said:
Not to derail the thread, but a quick question... If they are such different tests, how does one go about studying?
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most people take the usmle first, then study omm from the savarese green book and take the comlex.
 
It would also stand as a nice normalization factor for the AOA specific residencies... Remove the apples to oranges factor there
 
Bala did once mention that this has a flaw in that the AMA could then decide that only MD students are allowed to take the exam and thus deal a fatal blow to almost all DO students in the nation.

Obviously I think best choice would be to allow DO's to use either one for their licensing. It eliminates the threat of a hostile attack and it allows DO's flexibility.
 
serenade said:
Bala did once mention that this has a flaw in that the AMA could then decide that only MD students are allowed to take the exam and thus deal a fatal blow to almost all DO students in the nation.

Obviously I think best choice would be to allow DO's to use either one for their licensing. It eliminates the threat of a hostile attack and it allows DO's flexibility.
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Does the AMA call the shots there? I think getting some DOs on the NBME (could also be a long shot but...) could solve that problem in a hurry.
 
irJanus said:
agree. And with one less set of boards to study for (and lets be honest... they're two very different tests), I bet you would see the first time pass rate for DO's jump a bit
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I agree. It amazes me as to how many people overlook this fact. DOs are underestimated in this sense.

Not that I agree with one direction or another, but this is a serious issue for not only the NBOME but the AOA as a whole because if suddenly USMLE becomes standard with a separate OMM exam then I think this becomes an ideological issue for DOs. See, we have to understand that the AOA is marketing DOs as different, not just MDs who learn OMM different, but they use the phrase "think osteopathically". They push the idea that DOs do things differently, whether it is diagnosis or treatment, etc etc. The "difference" is not simply OMM training, but something different all together. Now like I said, I am not giving an opinion as to a solution and I do not necessarily believe in all of the AOA jibe I mentioned. But if the COMLEX was discontinued and the USMLE became standard for DOs, I really believe there would be greater changes accompanying this change --- whether it is one combined GME system, or even a merging of the professions altogether. It is hard to maintain a difference between the two professions when it becomes official that we are tested and trained in EXACTLY the same thing.

My 2 cents.
 
the thing is 1) most states have one license (physician for doctors) 2) the usmle is not under the auspices of the AMA,AAMC- it is the UNITED STATES MEDICAL LICENSING EXAM 3) I see so many posts saying the COMLEX is not a well constructed exam- so doing just usmle- saves everyone money and time (including the AOA)
 
nowanmd said:
the thing is 1) most states have one license (physician for doctors) 2) the usmle is not under the auspices of the AMA,AAMC- it is the UNITED STATES MEDICAL LICENSING EXAM 3) I see so many posts saying the COMLEX is not a well constructed exam- so doing just usmle- saves everyone money and time (including the AOA)
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State licensure and board certification are 2 different things. And USMLE spelled in all caps doesn't convey that it is NBME that runs it as opposed to AMA.
 
DrMediterranean said:
I agree. It amazes me as to how many people overlook this fact. DOs are underestimated in this sense.

Not that I agree with one direction or another, but this is a serious issue for not only the NBOME but the AOA as a whole because if suddenly USMLE becomes standard with a separate OMM exam then I think this becomes an ideological issue for DOs. See, we have to understand that the AOA is marketing DOs as different, not just MDs who learn OMM different, but they use the phrase "think osteopathically". They push the idea that DOs do things differently, whether it is diagnosis or treatment, etc etc. The "difference" is not simply OMM training, but something different all together. Now like I said, I am not giving an opinion as to a solution and I do not necessarily believe in all of the AOA jibe I mentioned. But if the COMLEX was discontinued and the USMLE became standard for DOs, I really believe there would be greater changes accompanying this change --- whether it is one combined GME system, or even a merging of the professions altogether. It is hard to maintain a difference between the two professions when it becomes official that we are tested and trained in EXACTLY the same thing.

My 2 cents.
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Agreed. I don't have any experience with AOA directly, but we get this sort of nonsense propaganda forced on us at school all the time. To add to that, not only are we told that we do things "differently", but that it is also unequivocally better, what "it" is that we are doing differently, I'm still trying to figure out. . . they keep talking about "it" but I've never seen "it".

There's no way the COMLEX will ever go away, the NBOME gave a presentation at our school and they gave a very unpersuasive yet passionate presentation declaring that it is a superior test compared to the USMLE in gauging performance in 3rd and 4th year. They believe in it, are building upon it, and I don't think its too bold of a prediction to say that as long as there are DO's there will be a COMLEX. I think making it a better test is a much more realistic goal.
 
chet said:
Agreed. I don't have any experience with AOA directly, but we get this sort of nonsense propaganda forced on us at school all the time. To add to that, not only are we told that we do things "differently", but that it is also unequivocally better, what "it" is that we are doing differently, I'm still trying to figure out. . . they keep talking about "it" but I've never seen "it".

There's no way the COMLEX will ever go away, the NBOME gave a presentation at our school and they gave a very unpersuasive yet passionate presentation declaring that it is a superior test compared to the USMLE in gauging performance in 3rd and 4th year. They believe in it, are building upon it, and I don't think its too bold of a prediction to say that as long as there are DO's there will be a COMLEX. I think making it a better test is a much more realistic goal.
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The comlex is " a perfect test" . Therefore it will not change in the future. Also the aoa will not discontinue the comlex because it is a large part of their ( the aoa) uniqueness.
 
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chet said:
Agreed. I don't have any experience with AOA directly, but we get this sort of nonsense propaganda forced on us at school all the time. To add to that, not only are we told that we do things "differently", but that it is also unequivocally better, what "it" is that we are doing differently, I'm still trying to figure out. . . they keep talking about "it" but I've never seen "it".

.
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I love this statement so much I want to take it behind the high school in my dads Chevy on prom night.
 
since all of the tests except for the clinical skills is on the computer, there is no reason why the tests cannot be some how combined. When you register for the exam, and you are a DO student, the only difference would be that you would get OMM questions.
 
EMT2ER-DOC said:
since all of the tests except for the clinical skills is on the computer, there is no reason why the tests cannot be some how combined. When you register for the exam, and you are a DO student, the only difference would be that you would get OMM questions.
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Please expand. You are saying the NBME will create extra OMM questions for the USMLE just for DO students? Get real please lol
 
serenade said:
Bala did once mention that this has a flaw in that the AMA could then decide that only MD students are allowed to take the exam and thus deal a fatal blow to almost all DO students in the nation.

Obviously I think best choice would be to allow DO's to use either one for their licensing. It eliminates the threat of a hostile attack and it allows DO's flexibility.
Click to expand...

WOW! I never thought anyone actually read my posts.... 😎 But this is exactly why we should continue to have COMLEX as an independent examination for DOs.

This is a very important issue that people on SDN and other forums seem to forget. We should never become dependent on a non-osteopathic organization to satisfy or maintain licensure requirements. Even if we assume that currently AMA et al. like us (very BIG assumption), they may have a change of heart tomorrow and I certainly don't want my future medical license to be jeopardized or become a hostage as a result of it.

As I've said a million times on this forum, we are either totally separate professions with different schools/accreditation standards/residencies/board exams/specialty boards/etc. or we are exactly the same for all aspects of education/licensing. There are no happy mediums without the DOs getting screwed at some point or the other. As it currently stands we are totally separate professions and neither group is dependent on the other for licensing and for the foreseeable future, it will continue to be that way.


SpecterGT260 said:
Does the AMA call the shots there? I think getting some DOs on the NBME (could also be a long shot but...) could solve that problem in a hurry.
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See above!

nowanmd said:
the thing is 1) most states have one license (physician for doctors) 2) the usmle is not under the auspices of the AMA,AAMC- it is the UNITED STATES MEDICAL LICENSING EXAM 3) I see so many posts saying the COMLEX is not a well constructed exam- so doing just usmle- saves everyone money and time (including the AOA)
Click to expand...

1) ALL states have two different licenses (DO and MD) and accept both tests (COMLEX and USMLE).

2) I can create another exam tomorrow and name it the WORLD'S MEDICAL LICENSING EXAM (WMLE) but the name doesn't give the exam any extra authority and certainly doesn't make it the licensing exam for the entire world. Same principle applies to the USMLE; it is a name chosen by the NBME (a private entity) for their exam. Just because it has "US" in its name doesn't make it the only test or somehow a more superior test in this country. You make it sound like the federal government writes the test. NBME works very closely with the AMA and AAMC and it is run exclusively by allopathic physicians; which is totally fine with me, but as an osteopathic medical student/physician, I shouldn't be forced to take their tests, which effectively I would be if there was no COMLEX. In this country there are two equally valid and legally acceptable tests for medical licensure (i.e. COMLEX and USMLE).

3) People are entitled to their opinions; I, for example, had no issues with the style of COMLEX. There are NO valid studies showing COMLEX to be inferior to USMLE in any shape or form especially in its primary purpose which is to assess minimum competence to practice medicine. People who post on threads such as SDN are a self-selected group and do not represent everyone/majority or even a sizable minority. If you look at all the posts in a given month on the osteo. side, it is probably less than 50 people who post constantly and tend to repeat themselves quite often (me included).
 
So bala, with your all or nothing stance: what do you think about DOs in acgme residencies?
 
SpecterGT260 said:
So bala, with your all or nothing stance: what do you think about DOs in acgme residencies?
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I have no problem with it as long as AOA residencies also remain available so we are not dependent on ACGME for licensure (the same way I don't have a problem with DOs taking USMLE as long as COMLEX remains available).

My argument was about independent pathway for licensure; as long as COMLEX and AOA residencies are available the independent pathway is preserved. If a DO chooses to do ACGME residency and ACGME chooses to take DOs, there are no issues; and if ACGME (or NBME) change their policies, we still have preserved our independent/separate pathway for licensure.
 
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abolishing the COMLEX will never happen. making the COMLEX optional and having DO students pick between COMLEX and USMLE will never happen (they/we would all choose the USMLE, for obvious reasons.) Due to the emphasis on how 'different we are' as a profession, and that what we do 'differently' is inherently 'better', and an emphasis on voodoo such as 'cranial manipulation' or whatever, there stands a reason that the COMLEX will not be done away with and its to measure the so-called differences provided in 'osteopathic' medicine, despite whatever the reality may be. Not to mention that NBOME/AOA have a financial interest in our taking their exams.

since it won't change unless something drastic happens: i.e: DOs get absorbed by the AMA and become MDs without conflict or complications, best thing to do is to suck it up and stop worrying about it. it's not like we're studying for two entirely different tests. Same content/knowledge base, studying for one will prepare you for the other. Ideally, studying for the USMLE via USMLEworld will give you the knowledge base required to do well on the COMLEX, provided that you familiarize yourself with COMLEX style questions through COMBANK + a two day crash course on OMM through Savarese.

It's a hassle, but I like to think all this BS has helped make me pretty even keeled and easy going when it comes to future BS.
 
Agreed. Until the DO powers-at-be are more than just FP trained old-farts who are dead-set in their ways, COMLEX will always continue since being "different" and therefore "better" is so prized, as mentioned above. What a joke.

I find it hilarious that I have to study obgyn, peds, and OMM, as the bulk of my COMLEX Level III, when I will be a psychiatrist and will not be rotating in any of these specialties or practicing any of this at all later in life. See the FP/OMM bent at all?

Whatever, end of my rant.
 
PistolPete said:
Agreed. Until the DO powers-at-be are more than just FP trained old-farts who are dead-set in their ways, COMLEX will always continue since being "different" and therefore "better" is so prized, as mentioned above. What a joke.

I find it hilarious that I have to study obgyn, peds, and OMM, as the bulk of my COMLEX Level III, when I will be a psychiatrist and will not be rotating in any of these specialties or practicing any of this at all later in life. See the FP/OMM bent at all?

Whatever, end of my rant.
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:laugh:
 
bala565 said:
I have no problem with it as long as AOA residencies also remain available so we are not dependent on ACGME for licensure (the same way I don't have a problem with DOs taking USMLE as long as COMLEX remains available).

My argument was about independent pathway for licensure; as long as COMLEX and AOA residencies are available the independent pathway is preserved. If a DO chooses to do ACGME residency and ACGME chooses to take DOs, there are no issues; and if ACGME (or NBME) change their policies, we still have preserved our independent/separate pathway for licensure.
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ok. From my point of view the ACGME would have violated your idea of "completely separate profession", but I see where you are coming from. If there is 1 thing you have been good at in these threads it is more coherent argument and less defensive backlashing 👍

btw, where are you going to be next year? did the match work out well?
 
The truth is that the osteopathic profession has no choice but to rely on the ACGME because the AOA can barely support half of its graduates with its own GME. So even people who are pro-DO down to the core have to agree with the status quo (choosing between either pathway for GME and having USMLE optional).
 
If you google state education dept professional license verification for new york state- i only see physician as a profession (for DOs and MDs)- so if there is a seperate DO and MD license in NY is this consistent?
 
nowanmd said:
If you google state education dept professional license verification for new york state- i only see physician as a profession (for DOs and MDs)- so if there is a seperate DO and MD license in NY is this consistent?
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Yes. CA and AZ are like that, as well.
 
PistolPete said:
Agreed. Until the DO powers-at-be are more than just FP trained old-farts who are dead-set in their ways, COMLEX will always continue since being "different" and therefore "better" is so prized, as mentioned above. What a joke.

I find it hilarious that I have to study obgyn, peds, and OMM, as the bulk of my COMLEX Level III, when I will be a psychiatrist and will not be rotating in any of these specialties or practicing any of this at all later in life. See the FP/OMM bent at all?

Whatever, end of my rant.
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I am a rad onc. COMLEX I/II/III had nothing revolving around my specialty. It is a very broad based test to see what you have picked up during core classes/rotations.

I have taken 2 sets of boards, as the allopathic (ABR) boards are not recognized by the AOA, so I have also completed the AOBR testing.

If you are going to do an allo residency, take their test. I did not, and as I have stated before, I got very lucky. Studying for COMLEX will have you reasonably prepared for it.
 
PistolPete said:
I find it hilarious that I have to study obgyn, peds, and OMM, as the bulk of my COMLEX Level III, when I will be a psychiatrist and will not be rotating in any of these specialties or practicing any of this at all later in life. See the FP/OMM bent at all?
.
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I hope you realize that USMLE step 3 also includes questions from all specialties; so I'm not sure how is that different for COMLEX; Also you are being licensed as a physician; One day you may want to change your specialty. The license issued by each state medical board after competing COMLEX/USMLE is a license to practice the full scope of (osteopathic) medicine and surgery regardless of your specialty training; Specialty training is only for hospital privileges/insurance reimbursement/medical-legal issues; Technically, once licensed even as a psychiatrist you can legally operate on people; of course no hospital/surgical center will give you privileges to do so, no insurance company will ever pay you and if you f**k up you will be in deep s*** but if you feel comfortable doing it and you have your own surgical suite, technically you could do it. Therefore, the test which is one of the basis for issuing that license should reflect that fact.

SpecterGT260 said:
ok. From my point of view the ACGME would have violated your idea of "completely separate profession", but I see where you are coming from. If there is 1 thing you have been good at in these threads it is more coherent argument and less defensive backlashing 👍

btw, where are you going to be next year? did the match work out well?
Click to expand...

Well, Thank-you sir/madam! It is amazing how far we've come in the past 2-3 months and for the vast majority of your posts, you make fairly good arguments as well!

In order to preserve anonymity I can't say where I matched but let's just say that I am very pleased with the outcome.

nowanmd said:
If you google state education dept professional license verification for new york state- i only see physician as a profession (for DOs and MDs)- so if there is a seperate DO and MD license in NY is this consistent?
Click to expand...

Yes, there is only one profession but with two different licenses (DO and MD) with different regulations. Some states break it down to osteopathic physician and allopathic physician. In some states, the licensing board is the same for DOs and MDs and in others, there are two separate boards (see below). But in all states they are both "physicians" and with different licenses.

r90t said:
Yes. CA and AZ are like that, as well.
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CA and AZ along with many other states (e.g. PA, ME, etc.) have completely different/separate medical licensing boards with different board members for DOs and MDs.
 
irJanus said:
same basics (biochem, phys, path, pharm, ect) which makes them comparable tests on a base level... but in terms of question structure and approach, vastly different. Where USMLE will give you a decent size vignette and ask the student to dig two to three levels of thought deep, the COMLEX presents a vague, 1-2 sentence question requiring the reader to make assumptions about the authors intent and THEN answer the question. Sprinkle in some OMM into the mix, and what you have are two VERY different examinations.

I only took COMLEX but did all of UWORLD. The difference in question structure is something everyone comments on and it's really what makes it so difficult to take both. You need to be in two different frames of mind. I'm totally in favor of a single, benchmark test.
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I am in the same boat, currently doing UWORLD to prepare for my COMLEX in june, did that approach work for you or should i stick with COMBANK only?
 
You're asking about COMLEX only, right?
I'd say I was a little bit different than a lot of people for step I.
-I didn't make a complete pass thru FA
-I did700-800 or so UWorld questions. (I misspoke... I meant I did a small majority, not all haha... I think I was confused because I was between Uworld sets for Step II)

The way I looked at it was this: UWorld is a phenomenal tool for shoring up your base knowledge and to prepare you for the way the USMLE will come at you. I felt pretty comfortable with my ability to think and reason through a problem, so I decided early on that COMBANK, Kaplan COMLEX, and the COMSAE would prep me best for the type of exam I was going to take.
I used Goljan Rapid Review for the most part, with BRS phys, Micro made redic easy, and a couple other subject-specific books. I did use FA for the pharm, micro and biochem.

I'm getting a bit off track though. PM me if you have any questions for board prep.
Moral of the story is that the approach has to be personalized... to you AND the test you take. My prep would have been a bit different if I took both (like I am preparing- as we speak- for both USMLE and COMLEX II). Don't be afraid to be different than everyone else... it can work for you 🙂
 
jumpmanv15 said:
I am in the same boat, currently doing UWORLD to prepare for my COMLEX in june, did that approach work for you or should i stick with COMBANK only?
Click to expand...

Do all of Uworld. Read the explainations and learn from them. Then do combank. There are only like 1000 questions in combank. They are all short, easy and straight forward. I did all of them in 3 days.
 
cliquesh said:
Do all of Uworld. Read the explainations and learn from them. Then do combank. There are only like 1000 questions in combank. They are all short, easy and straight forward. I did all of them in 3 days.
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thanks for the reply, currently doing this. Doing DIT as well almost finished but find it so-so, the packets do help reinforce some topics but Uworld is really where it clicks
 
irJanus said:
You're asking about COMLEX only, right?
I'd say I was a little bit different than a lot of people for step I.
-I didn't make a complete pass thru FA
-I did700-800 or so UWorld questions. (I misspoke... I meant I did a small majority, not all haha... I think I was confused because I was between Uworld sets for Step II)

The way I looked at it was this: UWorld is a phenomenal tool for shoring up your base knowledge and to prepare you for the way the USMLE will come at you. I felt pretty comfortable with my ability to think and reason through a problem, so I decided early on that COMBANK, Kaplan COMLEX, and the COMSAE would prep me best for the type of exam I was going to take.
I used Goljan Rapid Review for the most part, with BRS phys, Micro made redic easy, and a couple other subject-specific books. I did use FA for the pharm, micro and biochem.

I'm getting a bit off track though. PM me if you have any questions for board prep.
Moral of the story is that the approach has to be personalized... to you AND the test you take. My prep would have been a bit different if I took both (like I am preparing- as we speak- for both USMLE and COMLEX II). Don't be afraid to be different than everyone else... it can work for you 🙂
Click to expand...

thx for the advice, i sent u a PM!
 
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