I was ADVISED to retake my 34

[708445]

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As the thread title suggests... calling schools for feedback for my possible (probable) reapplication. I applied with a 4.0/34 (12/10/12, summer 2014 exam) fairly late in the cycle due to committee letter (submitted AMCAS in June and all secondaries within 2 weeks) and received all interviews from January through to April. One school I called (top 20) said I should retake and get a few more points. Other people told me I'd be crazy to retake a 94%ile score for maybe a 96-97%ile score, which wouldn't help me out that much since most schools would average my scores anyway. A thought I did have was that taking the new MCAT might be a good showing and prove commitment or something, but that means blowing the next two months on something that might not be in my best interests. I am currently halfway through studying content and have a seat reserved for June just in case I have to reapply.

Note: I've confirmed it wasn't my interviewing (I had great MMI scores and otherwise solid feedback)

 

[708445]

.

 

[708445]

1) Most interviewees are very poor at judging their own interview performance
2) Interviewers are trained to be polite.
3) One positive interviewer doth not an acceptance make.

So if this is the case... I could apply with the exact same application and, with more interview coaching, expect better success?

This still doesn't explain why some of the less competitive UCs didn't even interview me.

EDIT: I'm being dumb. I interviewed at FOUR of the schools you suggested. Also USC and TJU

Don't be surprised. It happens when the rest of the application is top notch. OP is focusing on improving the strongest part of his application, not its weaknesses. This is a common problem.
You notice that OP didn't get into his state schools either. "ORM" or not, top notch applications would get nibbles with scores like this.

I'm a CA resident, as many of us who are here without acceptances in April are...

Honestly though, I'm pretty confident in the quality of my ECs and I don't think I would have gotten the interviews I did without a good quality app. This is just seriously the only feedback I've been able to get is "go retake the MCAT". I'm just not getting anywhere else with any of the other parts of my app in terms of feedback

 

[ERDOC555]

This, really. If it's the other sort of pull - what kind of pull?

Probably people with several 1st author pubs, 1000s of hours as CNA/EMT etc., loads of volunteer hours and shadowing, some other unique point (business owner, D1 athlete, URM).

Basically picture a well rounded applicant who checked every box and then did everything needed 3 more times. Then you may be the type of applicant that makes it into the bottom half of the top 10 schools. Harvard could fill it's class pretty easily with straight 36 students, the reason their 10% dips down so low (not really low as Harvard 10% is still amazing) is because they want a diverse class with many different skills being brought to the table.

Also I saw your school list and you had no "safeties" really. (In reality you'll probably not get interviews from half your safeties but when you have 5-10 you can usually get an acceptance at some school even if it's not your #1 choice.

 

[708445]

Probably people with several 1st author pubs, 1000s of hours as CNA/EMT etc., loads of volunteer hours and shadowing, some other unique point (business owner, D1 athlete, URM).

Basically picture a well rounded applicant who checked every box and then did everything needed 3 more times. Then you may be the type of applicant that makes it into the bottom half of the top 10 schools. Harvard could fill it's class pretty easily with straight 36 students, the reason their 10% dips down so low (not really low as Harvard 10% is still amazing) is because they want a diverse class with many different skills being brought to the table.

Also I saw your school list and you had no "safeties" really. (In reality you'll probably not get interviews from half your safeties but when you have 5-10 you can usually get an acceptance at some school even if it's not your #1 choice.

What would you consider a safety school for a CA resident who went to an OOS undergrad (which I stupidly didn't apply to because of reported heavy IS bias for their med school)


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[ERDOC555]

What would you consider a safety school for a CA resident who went to an OOS undergrad (which I stupidly didn't apply to because of reported heavy IS bias for their med school)


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Georgetown
George Washington
Indiana U
Oakland School of Medicine
Wayne State
VCU
Penn State
MCW
Tufts
Creighton
West Virginia
Some NY schools
North Dakota
Vermont

There are a lot more but these are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. Private schools with no state preference are usually better bets than state ones with limited spots.

Basically just think of the slew of schools with a 30-32 MCAT.

 

[ERDOC555]

Georgetown
George Washington
Indiana U
Oakland School of Medicine
Wayne State
VCU
Penn State

Georgetown
George Washington
Indiana U
Oakland School of Medicine
Wayne State
VCU
Penn State
MCW
Tufts
Creighton
West Virginia
Some NY schools
North Dakota
Vermont

There are a lot more but these are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. Private schools with no state preference are usually better bets than state ones with limited spots.

Basically just think of the slew of schools with a 30-32 MCAT.

MCW
Tufts
Creighton
West Virginia
Some NY schools
North Dakota
Vermont

There are a lot more but these are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. Private schools with no state preference are usually better bets than state ones with limited spots.


Basically just think of the slew of schools with a 30-32 MCAT.

Usually with schools like these you can get between 33-50% chance of an interview since your stats are much higher than their median (assuming the rest of your app is decent, which it seems to be if you got interviews at Duke and another top school.

I applied to around 8-10 "safety" schools, 2-3 schools where I was at median, and 2-3 slight reach schools.
I got 5 interviews, 4 from "safety" schools and 1 from what I'll call a median school. Silence/rejection from my reach schools which makes sense since I didn't have a compelling reason to interview me or an above and beyond application. I was fortunate to get accepted to a good school that I really like, but had I not gotten the acceptance, I would have at least had a backup at a less prestigious school.

*Sorry for double post, I meant to edit this into my original post but ended up adding another comment

 

[708445]

Georgetown
George Washington
Indiana U
Oakland School of Medicine
Wayne State
VCU
Penn State
MCW
Tufts
Creighton
West Virginia
Some NY schools
North Dakota
Vermont

There are a lot more but these are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. Private schools with no state preference are usually better bets than state ones with limited spots.

Basically just think of the slew of schools with a 30-32 MCAT.

I applied to some of these and you have a lot of public schools there

Anyway, since we've digressed quite a bit it seems the consensus is that whoever told me to retake my MCAT gave me bad advice and that I should focus on other things. Thanks for your input all


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[Goro]

Yes, and keep in mind that CA is a graveyard of competitive applicants' dreams, because there are just so many of them. UCLA grads alone could fill every MD school in CA.

So if this is the case... I could apply with the exact same application and, with more interview coaching, expect better success?

This still doesn't explain why some of the less competitive UCs didn't even interview me.

EDIT: I'm being dumb. I interviewed at FOUR of the schools you suggested. Also USC and TJU


I'm a CA resident, as many of us who are here without acceptances in April are...

Honestly though, I'm pretty confident in the quality of my ECs and I don't think I would have gotten the interviews I did without a good quality app. This is just seriously the only feedback I've been able to get is "go retake the MCAT". I'm just not getting anywhere else with any of the other parts of my app in terms of feedback

 

[gyngyn]

I'm being dumb. I interviewed at FOUR of the schools you suggested. Also USC and TJU
I'm a CA resident, as many of us who are here without acceptances in April are...

If you are on 6 waitlists, You are likely to get accepted off of one of them if your self assessment of interview skills is more accurate than not. If you don't get off a waitlist with at least 6 interviews, the MCAT was not the problem.

You are correct in observing that even most good CA applicants have to leave CA for medical school.

 

[Stagg737]

OP, I'll add that regardless of what schools say, applying late hurts unless they aren't on a rolling application basis (which I think almost all are now). What I mean by late is that if your secondaries aren't in by mid-August, it's getting late. If you have to reapply, make sure your primary is ready to be submitted on day one and try to have secondaries completely done before August. It can make a world of difference with interviews.

Georgetown
George Washington
Indiana U
Oakland School of Medicine
Wayne State
VCU
Penn State
MCW
Tufts
Creighton
West Virginia
Some NY schools
North Dakota
Vermont

There are a lot more but these are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. Private schools with no state preference are usually better bets than state ones with limited spots.

Basically just think of the slew of schools with a 30-32 MCAT.

North Dakota shouldn't be included here. They only accept residents of North Dakota, northern Minnesota, some WICHE states (MO and WY) or people from federally recognized native american tribes. If you don't meet one of those criteria, they won't consider you unless there aren't enough people to fill their class who do meet one of those criteria, which from what I understand they normally do not need to consider people that don't meet the criteria listed.

 

[708445]

Yes, and keep in mind that CA is a graveyard of competitive applicants' dreams, because there are just so many of them. UCLA grads alone could fill every MD school in CA.

This. What do you suggest then?? We have a public school system that doesn't want us as much as it should

If you are on 6 waitlists, You are likely to get accepted off of one of them if your self assessment of interview skills is more accurate than not. If you don't get off a waitlist with at least 6 interviews, the MCAT was not the problem.

You are correct in observing that even most good CA applicants have to leave CA for medical school.

4 interviews, 1 waitlist. Waitlist offers last year from that school: 0. So basically looking at a reapp at this point

OP, I'll add that regardless of what schools say, applying late hurts unless they aren't on a rolling application basis (which I think almost all are now). What I mean by late is that if your secondaries aren't in by mid-August, it's getting late. If you have to reapply, make sure your primary is ready to be submitted on day one and try to have secondaries completely done before August. It can make a world of difference with interviews.



North Dakota shouldn't be included here. They only accept residents of North Dakota, northern Minnesota, some WICHE states (MO and WY) or people from federally recognized native american tribes. If you don't meet one of those criteria, they won't consider you unless there aren't enough people to fill their class who do meet one of those criteria, which from what I understand they normally do not need to consider people that don't meet the criteria listed.

Submitted primary in June, all secondaries within 2 weeks. The only thing that was late was my committee letter, which was totally out of my control. All of my interviews were way late in the season (at or near the end for all the schools that interviewed me) so I don't know how much of an impact that had.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Duke interviews a large number of people and still has a fair amount of screening done post II(ie they dont even read your LORs from what Ive heard until after the interview). Historically they accept about 1/3 people they interview. Dartmouth is a small school that also historically I believe accepts about 1/3 of people they II. Cant really pin a WL on anything at either of these schools particularly the interview, they're just very competitive. I dont think stats really hurt you much at either of these schools.

Keck historically accepts about half the people they interview. You sound like a reasonable candidate for them who was a 50-50 proposition. Still might have a shot on the waitlist depending on how things go. Jefferson accepts a good portion of people they interview but this includes the HPWL. IF you are on the HPWL you still have a definite shot. If not, then I suspect the interview didnt go that great there if 4.0/34 isnt even enough to get you on it for them.

Overall 4 IIs at 4.0/34 with no acceptances often that the interviews didnt go great. The fact you got IIs though mostly at very competitive schools where your stats arent above average complicates that.

You in general sound like a good candidate for many schools. On your initial list you had what I would consider about 5-6 schools you could go in saying you had a reasonable shot at getting a II at. For CA, that's too low. If you have to reapply get that number closer to 12-15. Saint Louis, Medical College of Wisconsin, Einstein, UIC etc are the types of schools that can get that number up real fast.

 

[Stagg737]

Submitted primary in June, all secondaries within 2 weeks. The only thing that was late was my committee letter, which was totally out of my control. All of my interviews were way late in the season (at or near the end for all the schools that interviewed me) so I don't know how much of an impact that had.

Unfortunately, your secondary isn't considered complete until all materials, including LORs, are submitted. I had something similar happen the first time I applied and it screwed me over at several schools. If your committee letter wasn't turned in until October or November, then that's when they'll count it as completed and start reviewing it. By that time many schools have already started offering acceptances, which just means less spots for you.

 

[Goro]

It's not about you, it's about the patients. It's a seller's market and the schools can afford to turn away high quality candidates. Suggest that you gain more time showing commitment to the San Joaquin Valley or the Inland Empire as gyngyn has suggested in the past for UCD and UCR.

This. What do you suggest then?? We have a public school system that doesn't want us as much as it should


4 interviews, 1 waitlist. Waitlist offers last year from that school: 0. So basically looking at a reapp at this point


Submitted primary in June, all secondaries within 2 weeks. The only thing that was late was my committee letter, which was totally out of my control. All of my interviews were way late in the season (at or near the end for all the schools that interviewed me) so I don't know how much of an impact that had.

 

[Goro]

Here are the schools I would recommend.

Nothing wrong with aiming high; the ones I have in bold are schools where your MCAT score is 2-3 points below their avg, and your GPA is ~ the same as the school avg. Thus, proceed with caution on these, but I feel you're in striking distance for some.


U VM
U Toledo
Miami
St. Louis
Albany
Albert Einstein
Rochester
Rush (note: very service/experience oriented with a 150hr service requirement. Avg student has 800 hours of community service, and >1800 hours of health care exposure.)
Rosy Franklin
NYMC
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton
Tulane
USC/Keck
Dartmouth
MCW
Loyola
USF Morsani
Emory
BU
Mayo
Duke
Case
Baylor
JHU
Pitt
Northwestern
NYU
Vanderbilt
Columbia
Any new MD school, especially Hofstra. Skip Central MI and the three new FL schools. I can't recommend CNU.
UCD
UCI
UCR (maybe)

 

[708445]

Duke interviews a large number of people and still has a fair amount of screening done post II(ie they dont even read your LORs from what Ive heard until after the interview). Historically they accept about 1/3 people they interview. Dartmouth is a small school that also historically I believe accepts about 1/3 of people they II. Cant really pin a WL on anything at either of these schools particularly the interview, they're just very competitive. I dont think stats really hurt you much at either of these schools.

Keck historically accepts about half the people they interview. You sound like a reasonable candidate for them who was a 50-50 proposition. Still might have a shot on the waitlist depending on how things go. Jefferson accepts a good portion of people they interview but this includes the HPWL. IF you are on the HPWL you still have a definite shot. If not, then I suspect the interview didnt go that great there if 4.0/34 isnt even enough to get you on it for them.

Overall 4 IIs at 4.0/34 with no acceptances often that the interviews didnt go great. The fact you got IIs though mostly at very competitive schools where your stats arent above average complicates that.

You in general sound like a good candidate for many schools. On your initial list you had what I would consider about 5-6 schools you could go in saying you had a reasonable shot at getting a II at. For CA, that's too low. If you have to reapply get that number closer to 12-15. Saint Louis, Medical College of Wisconsin, Einstein, UIC etc are the types of schools that can get that number up real fast.

Yeah my Dartmouth/Duke interviews weren't great propositions but I was really hopeful... At Keck and TJU, I interviewed on their last day of interviews for the season. Heard it straight from the Dean that Keck pulled 0 people off the waitlist last year.

Unfortunately, your secondary isn't considered complete until all materials, including LORs, are submitted. I had something similar happen the first time I applied and it screwed me over at several schools. If your committee letter wasn't turned in until October or November, then that's when they'll count it as completed and start reviewing it. By that time many schools have already started offering acceptances, which just means less spots for you.

Well, there's nothing I could have done about that and believe me I wasn't happy.

It's not about you, it's about the patients. It's a seller's market and the schools can afford to turn away high quality candidates. Suggest that you gain more time showing commitment to the San Joaquin Valley or the Inland Empire as gyngyn has suggested in the past for UCD and UCR.

I've got hundreds of service hours with underserved populations in CA actually...

Here are the schools I would recommend.

Nothing wrong with aiming high; the ones I have in bold are schools where your MCAT score is 2-3 points below their avg, and your GPA is ~ the same as the school avg. Thus, proceed with caution on these, but I feel you're in striking distance for some.


U VM
U Toledo
Miami
St. Louis
Albany
Albert Einstein
Rochester
Rush (note: very service/experience oriented with a 150hr service requirement. Avg student has 800 hours of community service, and >1800 hours of health care exposure.)
Rosy Franklin
NYMC
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton
Tulane
USC/Keck
Dartmouth
MCW
Loyola
USF Morsani
Emory
BU
Mayo
Duke
Case
Baylor
JHU
Pitt
Northwestern
NYU
Vanderbilt
Columbia
Any new MD school, especially Hofstra. Skip Central MI and the three new FL schools. I can't recommend CNU.
UCD
UCI
UCR (maybe)

Thank you for this! I skipped UCR the first time around, but UCD put me on interview hold like 2 weeks after being complete.

 

[Goro]

Hmmm...it's starting to sound like your essays might be the problem, or a bad LOR.

I've got hundreds of service hours with underserved populations in CA actually...


Thank you for this! I skipped UCR the first time around, but UCD put me on interview hold like 2 weeks after being complete.

 

[708445]

Hmmm...it's starting to sound like your essays might be the problem, or a bad LOR.

How would I find out about a bad LOR? One admissions director read my essays on the phone with me and said they were fine, and that my letters were above average. He said he couldn't see any reason why I wasn't interviewed at their school


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[Stagg737]

Well, there's nothing I could have done about that and believe me I wasn't happy.

Trust me, I understand. Just have to make sure it doesn't happen next time. The next cycle I had all of my letter writers lined by before May and had the letters organized and ready to submit by June. Made a huge difference.

 

[708445]

Trust me, I understand. Just have to make sure it doesn't happen next time. The next cycle I had all of my letter writers lined by before May and had the letters organized and ready to submit by June. Made a huge difference.

I'm actually considering no committee letter this cycle since I've been out of school a few years. If I use the CL, I'm stuck with letters that are two years old


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[gyngyn]

4 interviews, 1 waitlist. Waitlist offers last year from that school: 0. So basically looking at a reapp at this point

.

You were rejected post interview at 3 out of 4 schools?

 

[708445]

You were rejected post interview at 3 out of 4 schools?

Rejected Duke/Dartmouth. TJU won't get back to me until the end of the month, so I figured I can't afford to bank on them and I have to plan for the worst.

Duke told me I had great MMI scores btw and that the interview wasn't it


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[gyngyn]

Rejected Duke/Dartmouth. TJU won't get back to me until the end of the month, so I figured I can't afford to bank on them and I have to plan for the worst.

Duke told me I had great MMI scores btw


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How often are folks rejected post interview at these schools?
CA schools uncommonly reject post interview...
With one waitlist and a possibility at another, you are correct in re-assessing the whole application as well as the strategy, though.

 

[708445]

How often are folks rejected post interview at these schools?
In CA schools uncommonly reject post interview...

Duke accepted less than a third. Dartmouth I think is about a third. Was really bummed about my Keck waitlist but I don't know if interviewing on the last day just meant there weren't very many spots to begin with


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[gyngyn]

Duke accepted less than a third. Dartmouth I think is about a third. Was really bummed about my Keck waitlist but I don't know if interviewing on the last day just meant there weren't very many spots to begin with


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I understand that they accept about a third, but how many are rejected outright?
Don't almost all of them go to the waitlist?

 

[708445]

I understand that they accept about a third, but how many are rejected outright?
Don't almost all of them go to the waitlist?

If SDN is any indication, there were quite a few of us riding the rejection wave together. I don't have an exact proportion

How often are folks rejected post interview at these schools?
CA schools uncommonly reject post interview...
With one waitlist and a possibility at another, you are correct in re-assessing the whole application as well as the strategy, though.

I'm going ground up and reaching as wide as I can for advice. Sure, I get why I didn't get interviewed at Yale or WashU, but there's gotta be a reason why I didn't get interviewed at UCD or UCI if everything was good enough to get at least considered for Duke/Dartmouth/Keck.

I had really salient reasons that I articulated in my secondaries for places like Cornell and CWRU which fit really well with my nontrad background.

 

[occams_razor]

CWRU
All Ivies (only 1 II)
All UCs (no II)
UChicago
JHU
USC
Mayo
Stanford
Vandy
WashU
Duke
Georgetown
Drexel
TJU
NYMC

Thank you for your thoughts!

CA resident, app submitted in June, secondaries within 2 weeks... committee letter not until September so complete in September.

ECs: Research (3 years, honors thesis led to a pub, multiple grants), volunteering (do social work in a hospital), lots of teaching employment (science and arts), top graduating honors from my BS and my fine arts degree, valedictorian of my college, dormitory peer mentor/RA type position, ER scribe (gap year), few fine arts scholarships, 100 hours shadowing (11 providers), lots of outreach with underserved communities here in CA

Your MCAT is not the problem, you shouldn't retake it.
The fact that your committee letter wasn't in until September and you weren't complete until September is bad and definitely hurt you.
Do whatever you can to make sure you are complete much earlier when you reapply.

 

[708445]

Your MCAT is not the problem, you shouldn't retake it.
The fact that your committee letter wasn't in until September and you weren't complete until September is bad and definitely hurt you.
Do whatever you can to make sure you are complete much earlier when you reapply.

What are you thoughts on just using individual letters this time around? My school requires that I send all 4 of the prior letters that went into my committee letter along with it if I use it again. That means that any additional letters would be in excess of the 4 original letters + 1 committee letter + committee letter update... so basically, I'd have a packet of 6 letters from my school (old letters + update) and ON TOP of that I'd send in my more recent letters. Hence, I was thinking of scrapping my CL and just sending individual letters this time. I have good reasons for not using the CL since I've done a lot in the last two years and want letters that are more current, but I don't want this to be a red flag, especially for schools that "require" a CL.

 

[Stagg737]

Duke accepted less than a third. Dartmouth I think is about a third. Was really bummed about my Keck waitlist but I don't know if interviewing on the last day just meant there weren't very many spots to begin with

Well, yes. There will obviously be less positions available in the class. The question is how few? I know of one or two schools where the last month or two of interview dates are literally just interviews for the waitlist. Not sure if that was the case for you, but I'm sure it's possible.

 

[708445]

Well, yes. There will obviously be less positions available in the class. The question is how few? I know of one or two schools where the last month or two of interview dates are literally just interviews for the waitlist. Not sure if that was the case for you, but I'm sure it's possible.

I dunno, just one of the many factors going against me this cycle. Totally out of my control but that's why I'm not completely on board with the "you were 0/3 on interviews so your interviewing sucked" logic. I was one of the last few dates for Duke and Dartmouth as well. It wasn't an ideal situation to begin with

I also remember my Keck interview being chock full of HYPSM/top school kids (similar to my other interview days sigh) when I'm from a "lowly" state school. Really hard not to let that get to you


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