If being complete mid October is considered " normal speed" then whats wrong with a September 2nd/3rd mcat?

[Passionseeking]

I read a guide on here where it said that being complete early to mid September is early, mid September to early October is regular speed, late October is late.

So what's wrong with an early ( September 2nd or 3rd) mcat? I currently have everything else LORS, primary, e.t.c, taken care of and the mcat is the last thing. Scored 510 today but I had a low P/S (126) due to not finishing content, I feel like it's the easiest section to improve on and taking the mcat in early September would give me enough time to make a respectable difference in my total mcat score.

I already submitted to a throwaway so basically my question is if I take the mcat early September, get my score back after writing secondaries (a score I'm happy with), and be complete at every school by October 7th, would that be fine?

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[xDNA]

Nah, I'm not sure where you seen this at. The most common advice is to have all your SECONDARIES submitted by Labor Day to be on-time, anything before is relatively early.
Assuming you pre-wrote all your secondaries and was able to submit them all and be complete by Oct.7, you have to see that's late. They've been receiving apps since June/July, Interviewing since August, and October 15th is the day schools can start accepting students.
Lastly, I'm not sure if people would recommend retaking a 510 MCAT. Assuming you're ORM, that's pretty close to average for accepted students. Unless you can guarantee a 515+ it's probably not worth retaking.

My advice would be to just continue this app cycle with your 510 MCAT. You're already behind a bit if you just submitted and are waiting to be verified. So I wouldn't advise a retake if you plan on applying this cycle. Focus on pre-writing your secondaries and submit them after your verification.

 

[Passionseeking]

That is a simplistic understanding of how the process works

1) First of all, lets look at the processing issues. Any individual school will get roughly 5,000 individual applications for roughly 1,000 available interview slots. That means at least 80% of application at any individual school must be rejected pre-II, This in turn, makes medical school admissions for getting an interview a negative process to a large extent. That is, they look for reasons to not consider an application. Even if a school can easily discard half of the application it receives easily, that still leaves 2500 applications to distill to 1000 interview slots

2) When school has processing up to full speed which is not until after labor day at most places, at best they can fully evaluate and review a few hundred to several hundred applications a week. The rule of thumb is the roughly 12 weeks from Aug 15 until Nov 15 is when most of this is done with any indvidual application takeing 4 to 16 weeks or more. And it is not done in chronological order: High achievers, URM, family of alumni, feeder schools, associated UG programs, linked postbaccs, and other factor may push an app forward in the process. And with increase in the number of applications during covid, this balance has certainly gotten worse

3) Limiting factors are: a) the number of applications versus the time and resources available to process and b) the number of available interview slots. Since resources and time cant be expanded, the amount of time spent evaluating and reviewing an application will decrease as the cycle moves forward. Therefore, the later you are in the cycle, or the lower you are in the pile of applications to evaluate, the less time they have to fully evaluate and review and the "easier" it is for an evaluator or reviewer to reject. And remember if the more highly rated applications float up thru the pile earlier in the process as you go forward, evaluators and reviewers are dealing with lower rated applications as the cycle moves forward.

4) the concept of "on-time" does not really fit this process. Rather it is the potential impact or probability of how lateness can affect your chances. Very simply, as the cycle moves forward, the more applications pile up, the less time/resources can be devoted to an individual application and the higher potential risk to be more easily rejected from this processing.

So what is late? Yesterday was earlier than today and tommorrow is later. There is no way to have any solid info across schools, across application profile (ie how good your application is), and across any given cycle exactly when this curve suddenly goes down presenting a major risk due to lateness.

The rule of thumb is for all students at all schools, including highly selective ones, complete by Labor Day, meaning your application will have at least a good solid10 weeks for full evaluation is early/on time. That is, "lateness" will have no impact on your chances. For most "solid" applicants at most schools, mid-to-late September will be fine. After that however, you start this curve downward that could mean lateness will impact your chances. And this curve moves faster as the weaker you are as a candidate.

I will add two other things for the OP.

1) CARS is in fact the most difficult piece on the MCAT for most students to address, especially for running out of time. The only reason, I repeat the only reason that students run of time on the MCAT is because they do not know HOW to take which has absolutely nothing to do with content, knowledge or skill other than how to take the exam. If you do not have a practiced process of a disciplined time per section, per question, getting/guessing the best answer and moving on to the next section, then you are not taking the exam as it should.

2) No student should be retaking the MCAT in the same cycle unless it has been planned from the start. And even that I am really reconsidering

Thank you so much for your thorough reply it means so much. Also I want to clarify that I didn't actually take the mcat yet, but an aamc practice test with a 510 (126 P/S), which I know I can improve on with time.

Also you mentioned that being URM helps with timing, I am a URM student but I didn't think it was beneficial for even the order of your application being viewed.

So basically my question would be if I feel confident that I can improve my score if I take in on September 3rd, should I completely apply to all schools if I recieve a good score. I'm confident that I can turn around secondaries the second I recieve them after a month of pre writing. Like you said everyday after labor day my chances decrease but would being a URM student be enough to make the lateness not as significant? Or even minimally significant?

However if you believe that being complete October 7th at all schools would still be significant enough to noticeably affect my results this cycle in my situation, please let me know so I can withdraw my application before it's verified and I'll just apply early next cycle.

I really didn't want it to come to that but it is what it is.

 

[Passionseeking]

Nah, I'm not sure where you seen this at. The most common advice is to have all your SECONDARIES submitted by Labor Day to be on-time, anything before is relatively early.
Assuming you pre-wrote all your secondaries and was able to submit them all and be complete by Oct.7, you have to see that's late. They've been receiving apps since June/July, Interviewing since August, and October 15th is the day schools can start accepting students.
Lastly, I'm not sure if people would recommend retaking a 510 MCAT. Assuming you're ORM, that's pretty close to average for accepted students. Unless you can guarantee a 515+ it's probably not worth retaking.

My advice would be to just continue this app cycle with your 510 MCAT. You're already behind a bit if you just submitted and are waiting to be verified. So I wouldn't advise a retake if you plan on applying this cycle. Focus on pre-writing your secondaries and submit them after your verification.

Oh no I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I meant to say that I took a practice mcat but didn't take my real one yet. I think I can do better because my lowest score is in a section that can most easily be improved on (P/S), with me still having to finish content for that section.

 

[Passionseeking]

Withdraw. For the most, You cant receive secondaries until your application is transmitted to school and then it can takes days or weeks for you to first to get them. And applicants woefully underestimate the time and effort it takes to complete. Lastly it would be a terrible mistake to have apps submitted without knowing MCAT score

withdraw

Damn. Wasn't what I wanted to hear but I appreciate the honest advice. My last question would be would I be considered a reapplicant if I withdrew after my app got verified?

My app will be verified anyday now and even though I trust in your advice I want to take a few days to think before I commit to making a permanent decision.

 

[KnightDoc]

That is a simplistic understanding of how the process works

1) First of all, lets look at the processing issues. Any individual school will get roughly 5,000 individual applications for roughly 1,000 available interview slots. That means at least 80% of application at any individual school must be rejected pre-II, This in turn, makes medical school admissions for getting an interview a negative process to a large extent. That is, they look for reasons to not consider an application. Even if a school can easily discard half of the application it receives easily, that still leaves 2500 applications to distill to 1000 interview slots

2) When school has processing up to full speed which is not until after labor day at most places, at best they can fully evaluate and review a few hundred to several hundred applications a week. The rule of thumb is the roughly 12 weeks from Aug 15 until Nov 15 is when most of this is done with any indvidual application takeing 4 to 16 weeks or more. And it is not done in chronological order: High achievers, URM, family of alumni, feeder schools, associated UG programs, linked postbaccs, and other factor may push an app forward in the process. And with increase in the number of applications during covid, this balance has certainly gotten worse

3) Limiting factors are: a) the number of applications versus the time and resources available to process and b) the number of available interview slots. Since resources and time cant be expanded, the amount of time spent evaluating and reviewing an application will decrease as the cycle moves forward. Therefore, the later you are in the cycle, or the lower you are in the pile of applications to evaluate, the less time they have to fully evaluate and review and the "easier" it is for an evaluator or reviewer to reject. And remember if the more highly rated applications float up thru the pile earlier in the process as you go forward, evaluators and reviewers are dealing with lower rated applications as the cycle moves forward.

4) the concept of "on-time" does not really fit this process. Rather it is the potential impact or probability of how lateness can affect your chances. Very simply, as the cycle moves forward, the more applications pile up, the less time/resources can be devoted to an individual application and the higher potential risk to be more easily rejected from this processing.

So what is late? Yesterday was earlier than today and tommorrow is later. There is no way to have any solid info across schools, across application profile (ie how good your application is), and across any given cycle exactly when this curve suddenly goes down presenting a major risk due to lateness.

The rule of thumb is for all students at all schools, including highly selective ones, complete by Labor Day, meaning your application will have at least a good solid10 weeks for full evaluation is early/on time. That is, "lateness" will have no impact on your chances. For most "solid" applicants at most schools, mid-to-late September will be fine. After that however, you start this curve downward that could mean lateness will impact your chances. And this curve moves faster as the weaker you are as a candidate.

I will add two other things for the OP.

1) CARS is in fact the most difficult piece on the MCAT for most students to address, especially for running out of time. The only reason, I repeat the only reason that students run of time on the MCAT is because they do not know HOW to take which has absolutely nothing to do with content, knowledge or skill other than how to take the exam. If you do not have a practiced process of a disciplined time per section, per question, getting/guessing the best answer and moving on to the next section, then you are not taking the exam as it should.

2) No student should be retaking the MCAT in the same cycle unless it has been planned from the start. And even that I am really reconsidering

I'm afraid you need to tweak this advice. Just based on last year's huge spike in applicants AND applications/applicant, that 5,000 is now more like 6, 7, or even 8,000, with popular schools now having more than 10,000 applications, while many schools offer far fewer than 1,000 IIs!!

 

[KnightDoc]

Damn. Wasn't what I wanted to hear but I appreciate the honest advice. My last question would be would I be considered a reapplicant if I withdrew after my app got verified?

My app will be verified anyday now and even though I trust in your advice I want to take a few days to think before I commit to making a permanent decision.

Only at your throwaway school, which is why they exist in the first place!

If you withdraw before you are verified, then technically, you haven't applied anywhere. Correct @gonnif?

 

[KnightDoc]

hence why I said rough example

Point taken. It's just that, believe it or not, with the surge in applications last year which you are undercounting, plus your somewhat high rough estimate of II slots, you might be painting too rosy a picture. I swear, ever since I first stumbled onto this site 2.5 years ago and started inhaling the wisdom of the great @gonnif, I never thought I'd say that!

 

[Passionseeking]

Withdraw. For the most part, You cant receive secondaries until your application is transmitted to school and then it can takes days or weeks for you to first to get them. And applicants woefully underestimate the time and effort it takes to complete. Lastly it would be a terrible mistake to have apps submitted without knowing MCAT score

withdraw

My living situation is pretty bad rn and talked to people that I'm living with and they weren't a fan of me staying another year.

I know my chances are reduced and it's not optimal but if I were to recieve a 512 on the mcat and be complete at every school before October 7th, would I not still have a significant shot?

I reread this and it sounds like your main concerns involve the secondaries and I'll honestly eat, sleep, and breathe secondary essays the month waiting for my score, and I heard most schools turn around secondaries instantly or a day later when you're this late in the game.

I know it's not ideal but even if it's 80% of ideal I'm willing to take the risk, the place I'm currently staying at wasn't supposed to be super long term and I want to really make sure I know what I'm doing before I completely change the course of my life.

Please talk sense into me if my chances will be DRASTICALLY reduced, but I'm ok with not applying under the best circumstances ever, as long as I have a relatively strong shot if I get the mcat score I'm hoping for and I dedicate a month of my life to secondaries

 

[KnightDoc]

Me? Painting a rosy picture? How dare you sir impinge my character, I have a reputation to adhere to.

The increase in both the number of applicants and the number of individual applications they submit maybe be slightly offset in the more available interview slots that virtual meetings allow for.

As a side note, I have found while my humor works in my in person meetings, apparently on zoom people do not find me remotely funny

I know! That's why I was giving you an opening to walk it back.

You're totally underestimating yourself. I don't know about Zoom, but, at least online, your humor comes through loud and clear. I think they probably are finding you remotely funny.

 

[Passionseeking]

You're totally underestimating yourself. I don't know about Zoom, but, at least online, your humor comes through loud and clear. I think they probably are finding you remotely funny.

I see what you did there lmao

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

According to Reddit r/premed, two weeks after thanksgiving is “don’t worry it’s still early.”

it seems as if the general consensus is to be complete by Labor Day. I’ve sent out 41 apps and am even likely not going to finish anymore because I think it will be a bit too late and not have any impact on overall chances

 

[KnightDoc]

My living situation is pretty bad rn and talked to people that I'm living with and they weren't a fan of me staying another year.

I know my chances are reduced and it's not optimal but if I were to recieve a 512 on the mcat and be complete at every school before October 7th, would I not still have a significant shot?

I reread this and it sounds like your main concerns involve the secondaries and I'll honestly eat, sleep, and breathe secondary essays the month waiting for my score, and I heard most schools turn around secondaries instantly or a day later when you're this late in the game.

I know it's not ideal but even if it's 80% of ideal I'm willing to take the risk, the place I'm currently staying at wasn't supposed to be super long term and I want to really make sure I know what I'm doing before I completely change the course of my life.

Please talk sense into me if my chances will be DRASTICALLY reduced, but I'm ok with not applying under the best circumstances ever, as long as I have a relatively strong shot if I get the mcat score I'm hoping for and I dedicate a month of my life to secondaries

TBH, you really don't need permission from a stranger on the internet to do what you need to do. Your timing sucks, but it won't be fatal if your application is otherwise attractive. This goes for anyone, and is particularly true for a URM. Yes, you'd be in better shape in July or August, but schools are not going to reject you out of spite if your application is complete by their deadline, but after Labor Day.

As far as the MCAT goes, you might be underestimating game day jitters, which do actually affect some people. Maybe not you, but you won't know for sure until you go through it. 508, 510, 512. None of those scores will make or break you. Your fate will depend on your application as a whole.

Again, do what you need to do. If you are so desperate not to have to take another gap year, and you are really confident in your ability to hit at least a 505, and you are willing to consider DO, you might want to consider going all in right now. Apply to both MD and DO without the score and let the chips fall where they may.

You won't be complete without your score, but DO has a longer cycle, and you won't be waiting for secondaries to first come in in October. It's not ideal, but only you can decide if the risk is worth the possibility of not being stuck in limbo for yet another year. Good luck!!

 

[KnightDoc]

According to Reddit r/premed, two weeks after thanksgiving is “don’t worry it’s still early.”

it seems as if the general consensus is to be complete by Labor Day. I’ve sent out 41 apps and am even likely not going to finish anymore because I think it will be a bit too late and not have any impact on overall chances

Great, but SDN isn't reddit, is it?

The dates are arbitrary. I don't know who put a stranger on reddit in charge, but I am heavily influenced by the vetted, verified experts on SDN, like @LizzyM @gyngyn @Moko @gonnif etc.

I know some schools go into March and sometimes even April, but a lot of schools begin to shut it down around the end of the year. Since it has already begun, the last week of November seems like a reasonable compromise to me between panicking the second week of August and not worrying until the birds start chirping next March.

 

[Passionseeking]

TBH, you really don't need permission from a stranger on the internet to do what you need to do. Your timing sucks, but it won't be fatal if your application is otherwise attractive. This goes for anyone, and is particularly true for a URM. Yes, you'd be in better shape in July or August, but schools are not going to reject you out of spite if your application is complete by their deadline, but after Labor Day.

As far as the MCAT goes, you might be underestimating game day jitters, which do actually affect some people. Maybe not you, but you won't know for sure until you go through it. 508, 510, 512. None of those scores will make or break you. Your fate will depend on your application as a whole.

Again, do what you need to do. If you are so desperate not to have to take another gap year, and you are really confident in your ability to hit at least a 505, and you are willing to consider DO, you might want to consider going all in right now. Apply to both MD and DO without the score and let the chips fall where they may.

You won't be complete without your score, but DO has a longer cycle, and you won't be waiting for secondaries to first come in in October. It's not ideal, but only you can decide if the risk is worth the possibility of not being stuck in limbo for yet another year. Good luck!!

Thank you so much for the thorough response. I wouldn't say I'm looking for "permission," I'm more just trying to fully understand my situation if I were to apply this cycle.

People like yourself on this forum have a ton of knowledge and experience, and if you've seen that time and time again that applying this late in the application cycle is truly devastating then I won't go through with it.

However if applying this late is hurting my chances I still want to apply, I guess a way to try to put it objectively would be if my chance of matriculating at a school would be 80% or higher of what it would have been if I was complete by labor day then I'll roll the dice.

However if my chance of getting into a school is 3x less than it should be then I'd just have to deal with it and wait.

I know there's probably no way to know for sure and that it varies applicant to applicant, but I'm hoping that if I receive my goal score on the mcat I'll be competitive enough to minimize the disadvantage of applying late.

So all I'm honestly asking for is like how much would applying late hurt me, GPA is 3.6, tons of clinical experience and volunteering, research, sports, president of clubs, school records, actor, disadvantaged (was homeless for a bit), e.t.c.

The MCAT is the last piece of the puzzle. I also read that top schools aren't rolling so would try applying there if I get a good mcat, however if anyone reading this believes that being complete early October would seriously hurt me then I would be loved to be talked out of it.

 

[candbgirl]

This is just general information to consider. Each cycle only around 40% of ALL applicants are accepted to any med school. Of that 40% about 20% are accepted to one school and 20% to more than one. That means 60% of ALL applicants are outright rejected. This includes applicants with stellar applications. Individual schools only have so many interview slots available and they have to review and whittle down who is getting an interview and who isn’t. I’m not sure what percentage of ALL applicants are interviewed but they have to cut down the volume. Interviews are going out now. Some schools get 10k+ application for 150 seats. You do the math. The first MD acceptances go out around October 15 each cycle.

But as @KnightDoc said, you don’t need anyone’s permission to apply when and where you want. It’s totally up to you, but you should always want to give yourself the best possible opportunity available.

 

[KnightDoc]

Thank you so much for the thorough response. I wouldn't say I'm looking for "permission," I'm more just trying to fully understand my situation if I were to apply this cycle.

People like yourself on this forum have a ton of knowledge and experience, and if you've seen that time and time again that applying this late in the application cycle is truly devastating then I won't go through with it.

However if applying this late is hurting my chances I still want to apply, I guess a way to try to put it objectively would be if my chance of matriculating at a school would be 80% or higher of what it would have been if I was complete by labor day then I'll roll the dice.

However if my chance of getting into a school is 3x less than it should be then I'd just have to deal with it and wait.

I know there's probably no way to know for sure and that it varies applicant to applicant, but I'm hoping that if I receive my goal score on the mcat I'll be competitive enough to minimize the disadvantage of applying late.

So all I'm honestly asking for is like how much would applying late hurt me, GPA is 3.6, tons of clinical experience and volunteering, research, sports, president of clubs, school records, actor, disadvantaged (was homeless for a bit), e.t.c.

The MCAT is the last piece of the puzzle. I also read that top schools aren't rolling so would try applying there if I get a good mcat, however if anyone reading this believes that being complete early October would seriously hurt me then I would be loved to be talked out of it.

That's the thing -- there are no absolutes, and every case is different. @gonnif laid out exactly why, all things equal, it's far better to get an application in early rather than late. Neurotic SDNers often take this advice to heart and think they are screwed if they don't submit in the first hour of the first day AMCAS opens for submissions each May. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth.

Same with our hallowed Labor Day rule. The light switch does not go off the Tuesday after Labor Day. That said, September submissions are definitely at a disadvantage to July and August submissions. Same for October, and every month up to each school's deadline. "Devastating" or "fatal"? Impossible to say. We only know odds, based on years of reported results.

I only know, based on what adcoms have said on SDN, that there is always room for an excellent candidate. Given the push to increase diversity and atone for past sins, I'm sure this is particularly true for URMs. The problem is we have no way to know whether you are an excellent candidate, an acceptable one, a marginal one, or a poor one, especially without a MCAT score. So, we are all flying blind here.

Waiting and applying early, with a well thought out application and an actual MCAT (or two or three, if necessary) would clearly be better than rushing a last minute application in with a late MCAT score and hoping for the best, but that doesn't mean you won't be successful doing just that. As I said before, only you can appropriately perform the necessary risk/reward analysis here, based on your individual circumstances.

There is no guarantee you won't be successful if you rush this year. There is also no guarantee you won't fail if you wait. There are only the odds.

 

[Passionseeking]

You guys are right, I did a lot of thinking and applying this late would be immature. I was sooo reluctant to wait another year that I didn't want to withdraw without being completely sure. Now that I'm sure that waiting an extra year would be better I'm officially verified , so my question is even if I never complete a secondary application would I still be considered a reapplicant?

 

[deleted1102547]

You guys are right, I did a lot of thinking and applying this late would be immature. I was sooo reluctant to wait another year that I didn't want to withdraw without being completely sure. Now that I'm sure that waiting an extra year would be better I'm officially verified , so my question is even if I never complete a secondary application would I still be considered a reapplicant?

"You are only a reapplicant to schools that previously received an AMCAS application from you. For example, if you applied to School A and School B last year, you would be considered a reapplicant at both of those schools if you apply to them this year. You would not be considered a reapplicant at School C since you did not previously apply to that school.

You will indicate your reapplicant status per school in the Medical Schools section of your application."

AMCAS® FAQs

Frequently asked questions (FAQs) regarding the American Medical College Application Service® (AMCAS®) application process.

students-residents.aamc.org

Secondary applications do not have any effect on your status as a reapplicant, so you will be considered a reapplicant regardless.

 

[KnightDoc]

You guys are right, I did a lot of thinking and applying this late would be immature. I was sooo reluctant to wait another year that I didn't want to withdraw without being completely sure. Now that I'm sure that waiting an extra year would be better I'm officially verified , so my question is even if I never complete a secondary application would I still be considered a reapplicant?

Only at your throwaway. THIS is exactly why the throwaway strategy is a thing!!

If you did it right, your throwaway is a school you don't care about, so you're good. If not, it's still only one school.

 

[Passionseeking]

Thank you so much guys! Yes I made sure to only apply to a school I don't care about. But isn't there a question that asks " have you ever applied to a medical school before" someone in the application process?

 

[KnightDoc]

Thank you so much guys! Yes I made sure to only apply to a school I don't care about. But isn't there a question that asks " have you ever applied to a medical school before" someone in the application process?

No. The question asks whether you previously enrolled (because that's a big red flag!), not previously applied. Again, schools that received an application previously will know you are a reapplicant. That's it.

 

[Passionseeking]

Thank you so much guys! Yes I

No. The question asks whether you previously enrolled (because that's a big red flag!), not previously applied. Again, schools that received an application previously will know you are a reapplicant. That's it.

Got it, tysm!

 

[gyngyn]

Thank you so much guys! Yes I made sure to only apply to a school I don't care about. But isn't there a question that asks " have you ever applied to a medical school before" someone in the application process?

Some schools ask this in secondaries.

 

[Goro]

Thank you so much for the thorough response. I wouldn't say I'm looking for "permission," I'm more just trying to fully understand my situation if I were to apply this cycle.

People like yourself on this forum have a ton of knowledge and experience, and if you've seen that time and time again that applying this late in the application cycle is truly devastating then I won't go through with it.

However if applying this late is hurting my chances I still want to apply, I guess a way to try to put it objectively would be if my chance of matriculating at a school would be 80% or higher of what it would have been if I was complete by labor day then I'll roll the dice.

However if my chance of getting into a school is 3x less than it should be then I'd just have to deal with it and wait.

I know there's probably no way to know for sure and that it varies applicant to applicant, but I'm hoping that if I receive my goal score on the mcat I'll be competitive enough to minimize the disadvantage of applying late.

So all I'm honestly asking for is like how much would applying late hurt me, GPA is 3.6, tons of clinical experience and volunteering, research, sports, president of clubs, school records, actor, disadvantaged (was homeless for a bit), e.t.c.

The MCAT is the last piece of the puzzle. I also read that top schools aren't rolling so would try applying there if I get a good mcat, however if anyone reading this believes that being complete early October would seriously hurt me then I would be loved to be talked out of it.

As the DO cycle is longer, you are not going to be late in Oct.

 

[KnightDoc]

Some schools ask this in secondaries.

Now that you mention this, I have a question, not for me personally (since I hope to not be a reapplicant), but for general knowledge.

I know we all sign an affirmation that all information in our application is accurate and complete. OTOH, is this an appropriate question to ask, given that schools are supposed to be blind with respect to our application activities at other schools? I wouldn't want to advise anyone to lie, but I also think it's inappropriate for people to feel pressured to provide information that might be used against them, when AAMC takes affirmative steps to deny schools that information.

 

[gyngyn]

Now that you mention this, I have a question, not for me personally (since I hope to not be a reapplicant), but for general knowledge.

I know we all sign an affirmation that all information in our application is accurate and complete. OTOH, is this an appropriate question to ask, given that schools are supposed to be blind with respect to our application activities at other schools? I wouldn't want to advise anyone to lie, but I also think it's inappropriate for people to feel pressured to provide information that might be used against them, when AAMC takes affirmative steps to deny schools that information.

The AAMC does not manage or restrict information that may be requested in secondaries. Nor do they take affirmative steps to deny this information. They merely record and report to the schools any previous attempts to their school.

This question could be asked in many ways, often in ways that help the applicant.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Submitting as early as possible is a myth.... It's your application strength that will ultimately determine whether you get in or not.

 

[gyngyn]

Submitting as early as possible is a myth.... It's your application strength that will ultimately determine whether you get in or not.

Depending on the cycle, even strong applicants may not be asked to interview. If they interview quite late, the class may already have crossed the "number needed to fill." This will result in a waitlist for even very qualified candidates.
A well crafted application submitted as early as feasible to a sufficient number of target schools is the best strategy.

 

[KnightDoc]

The AAMC does not manage or restrict information that may be requested in secondaries. Nor do they take affirmative steps to deny this information. They merely record and report to the schools any previous attempts to their school.

This question could be asked in many ways, often in ways that help the applicant.

Okay, but, they have it and they don't make it available. In addition, they shut down the MAR over antitrust concerns. To me, that's taking affirmative steps to deny information to schools. How is this information ever used to benefit applicants?

More importantly, while it is extremely understandable why schools would have an interest in seeing improvement in applicants they previously rejected, and why information regarding whether an applicant previously matriculated at, and withdrew from, a medical school would be relevant to an admission decision, why on earth is information on previous applications to other schools relevant?

I'm sorry, but I just don't see it, other than as yet another vehicle to screen people out, and an irrelevant one at that (e.g., the person was previously rejected elsewhere, let's take a pass, OR, the person was previously accepted elsewhere and did not enroll, let's take a pass). A current application from an applicant who did not previously apply to the school should stand on its own, and be evaluated without regard to whether the applicant previously applied elsewhere.

I think the reasons to deny schools access to this information are similar to the reasons to discontinue the MAR. If not, why doesn't AAMC simply provide this information to the schools, either during the cycle, or at its completion, for schools to use as they see fit in future cycles?

While schools are certainly free to ask whatever they want, applicants are also free to refuse to answer inappropriate questions, particularly when there is no verification mechanism available to the schools. Contrary to the view of the sellers in the sellers' market, ethical behavior really is required for both parties here. Applicants should not lie on applications, and schools should not require applicants to provide information their own organization refuses to provide to them.

 

[gyngyn]

Contrary to the view of the sellers in the sellers' market, ethical behavior really is required for both parties here. Applicants should not lie on applications, and schools should not require applicants to provide information their own organization refuses to provide to them.

There is nothing unethical about inquiring about pertinent history.
If the primary application were entirely sufficient we would not have secondaries!
The AAMC is not "our" organization.
Many schools are often at odds with their decisions.

 

[KnightDoc]

There is nothing unethical about inquiring about pertinent history.
If the primary application were entirely sufficient we would not have secondaries!
The AAMC is not "our" organization.
Many schools are often at odds with their decisions.

I hear you. I guess I'm just thinking, kind of like a prospective employer might think a young woman's plans regarding marriage and children might be pertinent (which is why there are laws shielding job applicants from questions along those lines), med schools similarly think whether and even where applicants have applied (both present and past) is pertinent when it really isn't.

Here is my application. I have never applied to your school before. Evaluate it on its merits, without the crutch of knowing whether or where else I have applied, now or in the past. My results at other schools in other cycles really should have no bearing on this cycle at your school. Eyes on your own paper. Do your own work!

TBH, this will never be relevant to me. While I am not arrogant enough to be convinced at this stage of the cycle that I will not have to reapply, I really did take my best shot, so I can't imagine there are any schools that I did not apply to this cycle that would be candidates for a future cycle, so, if I'm going to be participating in a future cycle, I am doomed to be a reapplicant at all of the schools.

I just think it's an inappropriate question, and struggle with the ethics of lying or omitting information I don't think schools have a right to have access to, and then certifying everything is accurate and complete. Maybe the CASPer folks will want to pay me to use this in a future exam.

Along similar lines, do you have any advice on how strident to be in ducking questions during interviews on where else we applied or are interviewing? I sure don't want where else I did or did not receive interviews going into the hopper when the adcom decides what to do with me post-II! OTOH, I don't want to be dinged for being obstinate, after demurring and then being pressed. Just lie and give them names of a few peer schools, with none higher or lower? @LizzyM? @Moko? @gonnif?

 

[gyngyn]

I guess I'm just thinking, kind of like a prospective employer might think a young woman's plans regarding marriage and children might be pertinent (which is why there are laws shielding job applicants from questions along those lines), med schools similarly think whether and even where applicants have applied (both present and past) is pertinent when it really isn't.

That type of questioning is entirely despicable and unrelated to the discussion.
At this point we are sufficiently off topic that I will request that we return.

 

[KnightDoc]

That type of questioning is entirely despicable and unrelated to the discussion.
At this point we are sufficiently off topic that I will request that we return.

Agreed. I was just trying to point out that there are times that the folks on one side of an interview think information is pertinent that the folks on the other side feel is not. In one case, states stepped in and made conduct illegal. In the other case, sellers' market.

Back to the topic at hand, did you see my question at the bottom of my last post, or did you not get past my first paragraph?

 

[Goro]

Submitting as early as possible is a myth....

Not true.