If I withdrew from Ross, would I be able to reapply as a first semester student at SABA?

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Sorry, from the way you worded your post I thought you were also in a Carib school. Mea culpa.

Looks through some of the other Carib threads to see why their odds are not good. it is NOT a viable route, that's what we're trying to say, if you consider:
attrition rates
failure to match rates
match rates into prelim residencies compared to categoricals.


Not sure what you're getting at with those remarks. I'm a student at an osteopathic medical school.

Was simply curious because they were both good students in our post-bacc program and I've read quite a few negative threads about Caribbean schools lately. Hoping that the anti-Carib sentiment is a bit overblown here since our school advisers even said it was a viable route to getting an MD.

Just worried about them not matching after reading so many negative-sounding threads.

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Not sure what you're getting at with those remarks. I'm a student at an osteopathic medical school.

Was simply curious because they were both good students in our post-bacc program and I've read quite a few negative threads about Caribbean schools lately. Hoping that the anti-Carib sentiment is a bit overblown here since our school advisers even said it was a viable route to getting an MD.

Just worried about them not matching after reading so many negative-sounding threads.

In medicine, sometimes we have patients with end stage disease and we are running out of treatment options. You might sit down with them, and explain that there are two options:

1. We accept that the disease has not responded to conventional treatments and has continued to progress despite our best efforts. Months/years and many man-hours*/$$$ have been spent to no avail, and we can proceed with comfort care.
2. We throw together one last ditch effort to try an expensive, potentially toxic new medication that is not FDA approved for the patient's particular disease and is not supported by any direct evidence. One last hail mary to put everything on the line before heading to that great gig in the sky.

Do you see where I'm going with any of this?



*person-hours, for the easily triggered
 
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In medicine, sometimes we have patients with end stage disease and we are running out of treatment options. You might sit down with them, and explain that there are two options:

1. We accept that the disease has not responded to conventional treatments and has continued to progress despite our best efforts. Months/years and many man-hours*/$$$ have been spent to no avail, and we can proceed with comfort care.
2. We throw together one last ditch effort to try an expensive, potentially toxic new medication that is not FDA approved for the patient's particular disease and is not supported by any direct evidence. One last hail mary to put everything on the line before heading to that great gig in the sky.

Do you see where I'm going with any of this?



*person-hours, for the easily triggered
Seriously?

There are quite a few docs at our local hospital in midsized-town America who graduated from Caribbean schools. Do you really think the residency match landscape will be so drastically different in 3 years that current students at the big 4 won't have a shot at a similar destiny?

Many of these FMGs currently employed barely speak English. I just find it hard to believe that someone who does reasonably well on Step 1 and speaks perfect English would have such a tough time securing an IM residency in America.
 
Seriously?

There are quite a few docs at our local hospital in midsized-town America who graduated from Caribbean schools. Do you really think the residency match landscape will be so drastically different in 3 years that current students at the big 4 won't have a shot at a similar destiny?

Many of these FMGs currently employed barely speak English. I just find it hard to believe that someone who does reasonably well on Step 1 and speaks perfect English would have such a tough time securing an IM residency in America.

You're working backwards, and that's where many of your errors lie.
 
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SDN makes going to a Caribbean school sound like career suicide. Two of my good friends from post-bacc attended Ross because they couldn't get into osteopathic schools, and they're doing well. They both had high GPAs and low MCATs, and were advised to go that route instead of getting a Master's and reapplying.

Why would our advisers recommend a path that seems so risky?

as in they matched successfully or what does doing well mean
 
Seriously?

There are quite a few docs at our local hospital in midsized-town America who graduated from Caribbean schools. Do you really think the residency match landscape will be so drastically different in 3 years that current students at the big 4 won't have a shot at a similar destiny?

Many of these FMGs currently employed barely speak English. I just find it hard to believe that someone who does reasonably well on Step 1 and speaks perfect English would have such a tough time securing an IM residency in America.

except the amount of american grads continues to increase, so it's just a little bit harder to get a spot now than it was like 20 years ago when your attendings probably were applying.
 
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Seriously?

There are quite a few docs at our local hospital in midsized-town America who graduated from Caribbean schools. Do you really think the residency match landscape will be so drastically different in 3 years that current students at the big 4 won't have a shot at a similar destiny?...
As suggested above, if 20% make it and you only look at those 20%, it looks like "quite a few". If instead you looked at the 80% who didn't make it, the picture wouldn't look so rosy.
 
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I can see why you guys go to ross
Aww, don't make negative comments about large groups of people just because of the silly actions of a few of those people. That's not nice.

I mean I could say, all adcom members at DO schools must be sad, middle-aged men with nothing better to do than spend their time on an anonymous message board, for a profession they are not even a part of, ragging on people half their age who are at least attempting to do something that they themselves were never actually brave enough to do.

Or something like, all US med students must be so lonely and devoid of an actual social life that they spend their time making 5,579 posts on an anonymous message board in less than 2 years.
 
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Seriously?

There are quite a few docs at our local hospital in midsized-town America who graduated from Caribbean schools. Do you really think the residency match landscape will be so drastically different in 3 years that current students at the big 4 won't have a shot at a similar destiny?

Many of these FMGs currently employed barely speak English. I just find it hard to believe that someone who does reasonably well on Step 1 and speaks perfect English would have such a tough time securing an IM residency in America.

There's a significant number of students that start at a Caribbean school that don't even make it to their Step exams. There is a significant number that take more than four years to match. There is a significant number that do not get their initial choice of field for residency. There is a significant number that don't get any categorical spot. There is a significant number that get no spot. That's alot of money to put towards a degree that has a real enough chance of being useless.

There are many advisors out there who are not worth anything. Arguing to go to the Caribbean before doing everything they can to improve their application for US based schools is just *****ic. If you can't get into a US school after 3 or 4 really good tries, then maybe consider the Caribbean... but it's still an awfully big risk to take.
 
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Aww, don't make negative comments about large groups of people just because of the silly actions of a few of those people. That's not nice.

I mean I could say, all adcom members at DO schools must be sad, middle-aged men with nothing better to do than spend their time on an anonymous message board, for a profession they are not even a part of, ragging on people half their age who are at least attempting to do something that they themselves were never actually brave enough to do.

Or something like, all US med students must be so lonely and devoid of an actual social life that they spend their time making 5,579 posts on an anonymous message board in less than 2 years.

bro don't be so mad. your insecurity is showing
 
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There's a significant number of students that start at a Caribbean school that don't even make it to their Step exams. There is a significant number that take more than four years to match. There is a significant number that do not get their initial choice of field for residency. There is a significant number that don't get any categorical spot. There is a significant number that get no spot. That's alot of money to put towards a degree that has a real enough chance of being useless.

There are many advisors out there who are not worth anything. Arguing to go to the Caribbean before doing everything they can to improve their application for US based schools is just *****ic. If you can't get into a US school after 3 or 4 really good tries, then maybe consider the Caribbean... but it's still an awfully big risk to take.

I appreciate your explanation. That's just too bad. I hope my friends at Caribbean schools match in spite of the odds. They're both very bright, hardworking women. Guess we'll see in a few years...

It's kind of ridiculous how important the MCAT is. I'm sure glad it is important since standardized tests work in my favor, but seeing what a poor predictor of success it is in terms of grades makes me think it's a flawed metric.
 
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I appreciate your explanation. That's just too bad. I hope my friends at Caribbean schools match in spite of the odds. They're both very bright, hardworking women. Guess we'll see in a few years...

It's kind of ridiculous how important the MCAT is. I'm sure glad it is important since standardized tests work in my favor, but seeing what a poor predictor of success it is in terms of grades makes me think it's a flawed metric.

it's not inherently about the MCAT, it's about having an objective measure to stratify students by.
 
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I appreciate your explanation. That's just too bad. I hope my friends at Caribbean schools match in spite of the odds. They're both very bright, hardworking women. Guess we'll see in a few years...

It's kind of ridiculous how important the MCAT is. I'm sure glad it is important since standardized tests work in my favor, but seeing what a poor predictor of success it is in terms of grades makes me think it's a flawed metric.

Your friends could have easily just studied and retaken the MCAT and gone to a US school....why would you do a postbac if you had good GPA and poor MCAT?
 
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Your friends could have easily just studied and retaken the MCAT and gone to a US school....why would you do a postbac if you had good GPA and poor MCAT?

They both took the MCAT twice, with marginal improvement.

It wasn't a post-bacc for them. I created my own post-bacc (to finish the pre-reqs + boost my GPA) and took classes with undergrads at a state school. Didn't fully explain that.

A formal post-bacc is financially out of reach for many of us from middle class families, saddled with debt from undergrad.
 
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Actually, MCAT IS a predictor of success in medical school, or rather, poor MCT performance correlates with increased risk of failing out of med school, and/or failing Boards.



I appreciate your explanation. That's just too bad. I hope my friends at Caribbean schools match in spite of the odds. They're both very bright, hardworking women. Guess we'll see in a few years...

It's kind of ridiculous how important the MCAT is. I'm sure glad it is important since standardized tests work in my favor, but seeing what a poor predictor of success it is in terms of grades makes me think it's a flawed metric.
 
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Actually, MCAT IS a predictor of success in medical school, or rather, poor MCT performance correlates with increased risk of failing out of med school, and/or failing Boards.
Statistically, that may be true. ;) Sadly, there are likely people who scored in the 20s in my class doing much better than I am. :laugh:
 
Statistically, that may be true. ;) Sadly, there are likely people who scored in the 20s in my class doing much better than I am. :laugh:

and? outliers exist in every data set. you say one thing, then acknowledge opposite of it is actually true on large scale, but then talk about exceptions? not too logical.
 
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High 20s is OK...low 20s? Not good.
Not sure what anyone else in my class scored. Haven't asked! Does it matter what they got on the MCAT since they're current med students?

Anyways, I appreciate the perspectives shared in this thread. Hoping my friends in Caribbean schools beat the odds because they would be compassionate and hardworking physicians.
 
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Not sure what anyone else in my class scored. Haven't asked! Does it matter what they got on the MCAT since they're current med students?

Anyways, I appreciate the perspectives shared in this thread. Hoping my friends in Caribbean schools beat the odds because they would be compassionate and hardworking physicians.

People who do well on exams tend to do well on exams. Plenty of compassionate and hardworking physicians from the states
 
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I agree with the wary Caribbean sentiment, but what happens to all of these "grads" ? I'm surprised there hasn't been more of an exposé on how bad their match rates/pre-clinical attrition rates are.

Also, I know a guy who went to the University of Guadalajara and matched in Neurology (current R2) but I also know so many people who are in the Caribbean and 'hoping' to match. Would never want to be in their shoes.
 
I agree with the wary Caribbean sentiment, but what happens to all of these "grads" ? I'm surprised there hasn't been more of an exposé on how bad their match rates/pre-clinical attrition rates are.

Also, I know a guy who went to the University of Guadalajara and matched in Neurology (current R2) but I also know so many people who are in the Caribbean and 'hoping' to match. Would never want to be in their shoes.

I think there is a huge element of shame involved on the part of the grads. They probably don't want to publicize their failures.
 
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Not sure what anyone else in my class scored. Haven't asked! Does it matter what they got on the MCAT since they're current med students?

Anyways, I appreciate the perspectives shared in this thread. Hoping my friends in Caribbean schools beat the odds because they would be compassionate and hardworking physicians.

I love how people think that the kind, compassionate, iwanttohelppeople are all it takes to be a doctor, when those are the ones who crash and burn the hardest with disillusionment.
 
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I love how people think that the kind, compassionate, iwanttohelppeople are all it takes to be a doctor, when those are the ones who crash and burn the hardest with disillusionment.
You can be a good person who wants to give back to society without being an idealistic fluff brain.
 
People who do well on exams tend to do well on exams. Plenty of compassionate and hardworking physicians from the states
It would be interesting to see how MCAT score correlates with USMLE score. Wondering if there's a stronger correlation there than between MCAT score and med school GPA.
 
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It would be interesting to see how MCAT score correlates with USMLE score. Wondering if there's a stronger correlation there than between MCAT score and med school GPA.

It does. A couple of people have pointed it out already, I suspect. If you google MCAT step I correlation, you'll find a couple of relevant studies. There are also a couple of score estimators that use compiled MCAT data for prediction.

Drawing meaning from the aggregate data about MCAT scores/Step I/match rates, is where it is easy to kid yourself, particularly if you are not familiar with the multiple intricacies of this system, such as the very important difference between matching in categorical or prelim position which was noted above.

Generally speaking, a person who struggles to get a 24 on the MCAT (the old MCAT, I have no idea how the new one is even scored) after multiple attempts, will have difficulty passing or performing in a confidence inspiring manner on Step I. This is a huge obstacle to matching, especially for an offshore student. From the data, it would seem that a significant amount of offshore students fit in this category. On the other hand, there have been plenty of examples of people with a decent GPA, marginal MCAT say 27-28, who went to Carib schools, applied themselves, performed adequately, matched into relatively non-competitive primary care residencies, and owing to the favorable rural primary care job market, are gainfully employed, able to pay off debt, and are having nice lives.

So although these two examples may fit in the same data spread of matriculated students, what they can mean for an individual is substantially different.

It's my opinion that the business model of many of these medical schools seems to depend on not making this distinction very clear, which seems kind of unethical. While we no longer live in the England of Charles Dickens, where people on the losing end of this exchange were relegated to debtor's prison or the workhouse, paying off debt of this magnitude can put financial stress on families for generations.

So, to the OP, depending on how deep in the hole you are, it would be wise stay the course, work incredibly hard, look for residencies that are not competitive, and make yourself appear to be hard working, reliable, knowledgeable, and as low risk to a PD as you can be. Sometimes you find yourself in a bad fix, and your best option is to keep your head down in the trenches, and steadily dig your way out. If you are early on, at least researching options other people discussed like going to Anesthesiology Assistant school or Path assistant school (depending on interests) are pretty reasonable.

Best of luck.
 
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SDN makes going to a Caribbean school sound like career suicide. Two of my good friends from post-bacc attended Ross because they couldn't get into osteopathic schools, and they're doing well. They both had high GPAs and low MCATs, and were advised to go that route instead of getting a Master's and reapplying.

Why would our advisers recommend a path that seems so risky?

The correct thing for them to have done would have been to study more for the MCAT and re-take it until they achieve the necessary score.
 
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It would be interesting to see how MCAT score correlates with USMLE score. Wondering if there's a stronger correlation there than between MCAT score and med school GPA.

My school showed us a graph of usmle to mcat correlation for our students and it was about 0.55
 
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