If the jet ventilator isn't working, can I do this?

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benjamin248

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If the jet ventilator isn't working, and I have an airway emergency (can't intubate, can't ventilate), can I:

1. Put 14g angiocath through cricothyroid membrane.
2. Attach 3 cc syringe, with plunger removed, to angiocath
3. Attach the plastic connector from a 7.0 ETT to the 3cc syringe
4. Attach breathing circuit and use the oxygen flush to ventilate

Yes / no?
 
straight outta morgan and mikhail ch 47.
why couldn't you?
 
If youre gonna try it you better know which machines you can do it on and how much pressure youre gonna generate through the FGO. The older Dragers didnt have a check valve and you'd be able to generate higher pressures than the Ohmedas which have a valve. I have no idea what the new machines have in them. Having said this, I've never had to do it either.
 
I came across this topic today in Secrets... Short answer is effective jet vetilation requires higher pressures then Ohmeda machines or Drager will allow though Drager does allow more then Ohmeda....I also think individual machines will vary at which level they pop-off, so kinda tough to know with out actually testing the individual machine...

Funny this pops up on here tonight...
 
If the jet ventilator isn't working, and I have an airway emergency (can't intubate, can't ventilate), can I:

1. Put 14g angiocath through cricothyroid membrane.
2. Attach 3 cc syringe, with plunger removed, to angiocath
3. Attach the plastic connector from a 7.0 ETT to the 3cc syringe
4. Attach breathing circuit and use the oxygen flush to ventilate

Yes / no?

No. Never done it in a person, however my own ex vivo experiments were not confidence inspiring. You can get a lot of air through a 14 g IV under ideal circumstances, but these aren't going to be ideal circumstances.

The first problem is that a 1.88 inch angiocath that's thrust through someone's cricothyroid membrane and directed south is likely to be somewhat bent, and the tip is likely to be up against the side of the trachea. It takes very little deformation of the catheter or occlusion to the tip to make it impossible to get any air through it, regardless of the pressure. Any kink, or just lightly touching the tip seals the thing. Even a bend hurts you badly.

The second problem, and this is the dealbreaker, is that if you use the O2 flush button on the machine, you're still working through the breathing circuit which includes a high compliance bag and valves that will sabotage your efforts to create high pressures. You're better off scrapping the machine entirely at this point and attaching a regular ambubag connected to wall O2. You'll probably still flail around ineffectively though.

If you're at the point where you have an angiocath in place, and can't get air through it, and you don't want to just get stabby with an 11 blade followed by a real tube, it may worth replacing the angiocath with something larger over a wire. A Cordis would be cool, and it might even work. 🙂
 
I came across this topic today in Secrets... Short answer is effective jet vetilation requires higher pressures then Ohmeda machines or Drager will allow though Drager does allow more then Ohmeda....I also think individual machines will vary at which level they pop-off, so kinda tough to know with out actually testing the individual machine...

You're right, do the unit conversions. A jet ventilator delivers up to +/- 50 psi which is 3500 cmH20. Squeezing a bag into a misplaced angiocath will do nothing. Jet ventilating into a misplaced angiocath will dissect a tissue plane.
 
nope, and that wasn't the OPs question.

I think his point is that a lot of this theoretical MacGyvering, even if endorsed in M&M, sounds a lot better than it really works in the real world.

I wouldn't even attempt to bag or O2-flush-ventilate someone through an angiocath. Can't intubate, can't ventilate, LMA fails, no jet ventilator? Bite the bullet, step up and do a surgical airway.
 
I think his point is that a lot of this theoretical MacGyvering, even if endorsed in M&M, sounds a lot better than it really works in the real world.

I wouldn't even attempt to bag or O2-flush-ventilate someone through an angiocath. Can't intubate, can't ventilate, LMA fails, no jet ventilator? Bite the bullet, step up and do a surgical airway.

I agree with this.

I agree a 14G is more 'non invasive'. Perhaps less chance of tracheal stenosis later,etc...but how much air can you really get through this. I agree with doing a surgical airway, or creating a surgical airway and stick the smallest tube you have through the tube (a 6.0 or what have you). And just connect the tube to the circuit and bag.

I actualy walked into a room the other day, where the attending had a ET tube stuck through a tracheal stoma and was doing the case. I didnt get into the specifics becuase I was in a hurry, but the theory sounds about right.

I think the 14G angiocath option is for non-OR personnel. When you are in the OR and you have ETTs, use them...orally, nasally, or through the trach.
 
I think his point is that a lot of this theoretical MacGyvering, even if endorsed in M&M, sounds a lot better than it really works in the real world.

I wouldn't even attempt to bag or O2-flush-ventilate someone through an angiocath. Can't intubate, can't ventilate, LMA fails, no jet ventilator? Bite the bullet, step up and do a surgical airway.

i sort of thought that was what noyac was leading to. i agree with the posts above as well. however, it's nice to have this 'trick' in the bag. when you're out and about in the middle of the night on the 4th floor of a quiet hospital, i'm sure cric kits aren't normally at the ready. it's just good to know is all.
 
When it was explained to me by one of my upper levels he told me that you have to connect the angiocath somehow to the common gas outlet of the machine. That way you bypass the compliance of the bag and the pop off valve. You will still have the check valve after the wall supply (50psi) but the common gas outlet can deliver almost 20psi in the drager machines. Less in the ohmeda. How you connect the angiocath to the common gas outlet I can't remember.
 
i sort of thought that was what noyac was leading to. i agree with the posts above as well. however, it's nice to have this 'trick' in the bag. when you're out and about in the middle of the night on the 4th floor of a quiet hospital, i'm sure cric kits aren't normally at the ready. it's just good to know is all.
I learned this in Paramedic school. The theory was that if you can't get a tube of some kind in this was the next best thing (surgical airway not being an option). Saw it used once with an Ambu (MVA with mashed face) worked well enough to get to the hospital.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
When I was working as a flight paramedic we had a patient with severe facial trauma that we were unable to intubate but were having a hard time identifying landmarks for a cric. We placed a 14 gauge angio and hooked it up to a BVM to ventilate the patient, it was at 25LPM which was as high as the O2 would go. We then placed a second needle beside it and thread the retrograde wire out through the nose as luck would have it and passed an ETT. The patient survived the procedure but ultimately expired due to massive head an chest trauma. Just my mere experience among so much greatness. I really enjoy this forum. Thanks
 
Ken Bouvier from New Orleans used to go around to various EMS conventions and do presentations on improvising on scene, and he described such a contraption (14G angiocath, 10cc syringe, 15/22 connector inverted, and oxygen tubing on the nipple, and blow through it - add a nasal cannula onto yourself to increase PO2), and, of course, said that it bought you time - minutes, at most - to get to definitive care.
 
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