If you could do it over would you

[Uncle_Tbag]

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Damn this thread is depressing. Maybe I need to take a harder look at this certain PhD program . . .

 

[humuhumu]

If this thread has taught me anything, it's this: pick your specialty and your residency program VERY CAREFULLY.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

I've noticed some people knock on the "intellectual stimilation" and fullfilment motivations for going to med school, but for me that's the most significant reason I want to get into medicine.

You have to look at it from the other side as someone who's in a job that's not interesting to them. It's hell. It's worse than being poor, it's worse than being sick, it just really sucks.

People may say "I should just buy a business and make money;" what are you going to do in 15 years when the job becomes completely routine? Retire early? Then do what? Roll around in your money? I know it's not like this for all business people, but for me I just can't the accumulation of wealth as something to base your life around. And it is your life, work in many ways makes us what we are (the one thing I would agree with Marx on haha).

Me, I've been out of undergrad for 4 years now and salary is higher than ever, and I'm more miserable than ever. I have plenty of time to spend with the wife, to pursue hobbies, to play games and watch movies, to hang out and drink a bit; overall I hate it. I can't WAIT to get back into school this semester and take my next physics class. I can't wait to start my new research project scanning rat brains. Yeah, I won't be able to "party wit teh bro's as much" and for that I'm thankful.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

So I don't think your situation characterizes all people. Honestly, while I don't know your situation, I have to wonder about people who divorce their spouses over something like this. Again, maybe because I'm from another country, I can't understand things. But in my culture, when they take the oath of for better or for worse, til death do us apart or the Hindu equivalent of it, it literally means just that in 98% of the cases.

I know this is an old post, but I just have to say 👍 👍 👍

I'm with you 100% and I wish more people in my country felt this way.

What part of "vow" and "till death" don't people understand?

 

[sacrament]

I've noticed some people knock on the "intellectual stimilation" and fullfilment motivations for going to med school, but for me that's the most significant reason I want to get into medicine.

Do not go into medicine because you think it'll be "intellectually stimulating." That's one of the worst reasons, right along "because I'm gonna be rich, yo!" The bulk of your job in medicine will not be even remotely intellectually stimulating. And by "bulk" I mean almost all of it. I switched careers for the same reason and, hell, my old job was fairly intellectually stimulating (I was a research engineer). So I know what a cerebral job is, and medicine ain't it. Now, if you decided to go MD/PhD and focus mostly on research, with maybe some clinical work on the side, that'd be a different story.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

Do not go into medicine because you think it'll be "intellectually stimulating." That's one of the worst reasons, right along "because I'm gonna be rich, yo!" The bulk of your job in medicine will not be even remotely intellectually stimulating. And by "bulk" I mean almost all of it. I switched careers for the same reason and, hell, my old job was fairly intellectually stimulating (I was a research engineer). So I know what a cerebral job is, and medicine ain't it. Now, if you decided to go MD/PhD and focus mostly on research, with maybe some clinical work on the side, that'd be a different story.

I'm sure a lot of it depends on specialty. I've worked with many docs in diverse fields and many of them are happy and even excited about what they do. Personally, for me it's mainly imaging technology that turns my crank and I know I'd be happy in radiology (my office doubles as a reading room in the morning and I spend about 3 hours a day with a rad working next to me, so I have some small insight into the field).

I think equating it with the "gonna be rich yo" is maybe a little bitterness from being in med school. I may be wrong, but to say that to someone who's worked in bioinformatics for 4 years is a little insulting.

 

[sacrament]

I'm sure a lot of it depends on specialty. I've worked with many docs in diverse fields and many of them are happy and even excited about what they do.

I'm not saying you can't be happy and excited about medicine, some people certainly are. I'm saying that, by and large, it doesn't get the gears in your mind spinning in the way that a lot of people assume it does. I've done a lot more vigorous thinking on pretty much every other job I've had than I ever have on hospital wards or clinics.

I think equating it with the "gonna be rich yo" is maybe a little bitterness from being in med school. I may be wrong, but to say that to someone who's worked in bioinformatics for 4 years is a little insulting.

Be insulted if you wish, but I'm not exactly "equating" those two statements. Going into medicine because you want to get rich is just ridiculous. Going into medicine because you want to exercise your brain is admirable and would be an excellent reason to do so... if only it were true.

 

[sacrament]

As an example of what I'm talking about, radiologists and rad onc people like to talk about how they need to have physics knowledge and training in order to do their jobs. That sounds quite intellectually stimulating. Physics! Well, I do have physics knowledge and training, at a graduate-school level, and while radiologists and rad onc folks do need a general understanding of a set of physics concepts, it is, comparatively speaking, a shallow understanding. It's what we covered in the first week. This isn't to knock them, it's just that they don't need an in-depth, PhD level of physics training in order to do their jobs, and most of them wouldn't want that anyway. A lot of radiology becomes pattern recognization, while the engineers designing all their cool-as-hell toys are the ones grappling with complicated whole-brain puzzles. The work in medicine just isn't "brainy" in the same sense that the true applied-sciences are. That's not to say it's worse or better... I, for one, have gradually realized that I don't really want "brainy" work anymore.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

Spend some time working with a rad or even cardiologist who's an expert in imaging physics and tell them their work isn't intellectually challenging or stimulating.

All the doctors I've talked to have encouraged me to pursue an MD. One of the oncos next door hi-fived me, the neurologist md/phd said "you'll make an excellent physician" and has offered to help me design a research project in his lab (hence the rat brains). I've already had unsolicited offers for LOR. So I'm getting a much different vibe from these guys than I am from you (you are a med student, correct?).

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

As an example of what I'm talking about, radiologists and rad onc people like to talk about how they need to have physics knowledge and training in order to do their jobs. That sounds quite intellectually stimulating. Physics! Well, I do have physics knowledge and training, at a graduate-school level, and while radiologists and rad onc folks do need a general understanding of a set of physics concepts, it is, comparatively speaking, a shallow understanding. It's what we covered in the first week. This isn't to knock them, it's just that they don't need an in-depth, PhD level of physics training in order to do their jobs, and most of them wouldn't want that anyway. A lot of radiology becomes pattern recognization, while the engineers designing all their cool-as-hell toys are the ones grappling with complicated whole-brain puzzles. The work in medicine just isn't "brainy" in the same sense that the true applied-sciences are. That's not to say it's worse or better... I, for one, have gradually realized that I don't really want "brainy" work anymore.

Some do have excellent backgrounds in physics and contribute substantially to to imaging protocols and new techniques. No they don't have to in order to do diagnostics. Look up Scott Flamm with the Texas Heart Institute, a cardiologist I've worked with and someone who's been instrumental in developing cardiac MR.

 

[sacrament]

Spend some time working with a rad or even cardiologist who's an expert in imaging physics and tell them their work isn't intellectually challenging or stimulating.

Back when I was trying to find a niche in medicine that worked the noggin', the chief of cardiothoracic imaging at my school told me that his job isn't "intellectually stimulating" per se. The residency director of the pathology department here said basically the same thing. Both of them love their jobs.

neurologist md/phd said "you'll make an excellent physician" and has offered to help me design a research project in his lab (hence the rat brains).

An MD/PhD who does research. Isn't this exactly what I said earlier? I said it'd be a different story.

I've already had unsolicited offers for LOR. So I'm getting a much different vibe from these guys than I am from you (you are a med student, correct?).

So doctors who know you think you'll be a good doctor and they recommend the field. That's great. I don't see how this, in any way, negates what I've been saying. You very well might make a good doctor and you very well might enjoy the career. I'm not going to even begin to dispute that.

I guess I won't try to convince you. Nobody can ever convince a pre-med of anything anyway. Everybody has to learn for themselves.

 

[sacrament]

Some do have excellent backgrounds in physics and contribute substantially to to imaging protocols and new techniques. No they don't have to in order to do diagnostics. Look up Scott Flamm with the Texas Heart Institute, a cardiologist I've worked with and someone who's been instrumental in developing cardiac MR.

The practice of medicine is not intellectual. If you have an exceptional background and are prepared to spend a majority of time post-MD not performing clinical duties but rather engaging in straight medical research, would it be an intellectually stimulating job? Yes. But that's a different question entirely.

This is like saying: is working at McDonalds intellectually stimulating? I would say no. But then you ask, "OH YEAH? What if you developed a new meat-substitute product for McDonalds in the lab that had more protein, less fat, and more taste, and you designed a fry-cooking technique that turned potatoes into gold!?" Fine, great, but that's not exactly working at McDonalds. Saying that medicine is brainy work when what you're really doing is examining the molecular structure of potential oncology drugs is sort of disingenuous.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

You are a med student, correct?

 

[sacrament]

You are a med student, correct?

And you're not even a med student, correct?

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

And you're not even a med student, correct?

Correct.

So what we have is one person who is in training to become a doctor making extremely broad generalizations about the lack of intellect in medicine and basically asserting that anyone who won't accept his opinion of medicine is in the wrong.

And another person (me) who, while having worked in a clinical setting for 4 years, has no experience with working as a doctor but is privy to a lot of observation and advice from docs who have been in the field many, many years. This person is trying to make the best possible decision and would be foolish to attach too much gravity to the advice of a somewhat disgruntled med student.

No offense, but I tend to go with what I've experienced over the last 4 years as opposed to what I read on the net from students. And I think it's a little presumptuous of you to make such generalization when you haven't entered the field yet. I'm sure you, as a student, have seen doctors who are not happy and not all that smart and that scares you. On the other hand, I have seen docs, even those who aren't researchers, who do feel their job is great and stimulates their mind.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

Back when I was trying to find a niche in medicine that worked the noggin', the chief of cardiothoracic imaging at my school told me that his job isn't "intellectually stimulating" per se. The residency director of the pathology department here said basically the same thing. Both of them love their jobs.

Wow, we seem to have a variety of opinions on the subject. Surpise, surprise.

An MD/PhD who does research. Isn't this exactly what I said earlier? I said it'd be a different story.

He's spent most of his career seeing pts but has published a few articles on anticonvulsants.

So doctors who know you think you'll be a good doctor and they recommend the field. That's great. I don't see how this, in any way, negates what I've been saying. You very well might make a good doctor and you very well might enjoy the career. I'm not going to even begin to dispute that.

You're a med student saying "it's bad, bad, bad." I get it. I'm sure I'll file this somewhere in my mental rolodex of med school admissions (at the back 😉 )

I guess I won't try to convince you. Nobody can ever convince a pre-med of anything anyway. Everybody has to learn for themselves.

Why should a med-student be qualified to convince anyone, anything about the practice of medicine? I bet I know as much about what goes on in a clinical setting as you do.

 

[sacrament]

I'm sure you, as a student, have seen doctors who are not happy and not all that smart and that scares you.

I have to wonder, if I'm so impressionable, why the doctors I've met who are happy and smart haven't swayed me over to their camp?! Maybe because I'm not a sponge who soaks up whatever emotion happens to sit next to me for three hours a day, but instead have gradually come to my own reasoned conclusions about things. My conclusion is that the majority of doctors who do primarily clinical work are not greatly mentally taxed on any given day. This is saying nothing about whether or not they like their jobs. And I suppose it's a relative thing, as I'm comparing the clinical work I've seen and experienced to jobs, research and individuals that I've seen and experienced in the past, and everybody has their own gauge of what constitutes mental stimulation. I stand by my opinion that people interested in clinical work should not expect the same degree of mental gymnastics that is experienced in research or engineering fields. Your own milage may vary.

 

[sacrament]

Why should a med-student be qualified to convince anyone, anything about the practice of medicine? I bet I know as much about what goes on in a clinical setting as you do.

I'm two rotations (and several months vacation) away from being an MD. I've worked approximately 80 hours a week, give or take, in clinical settings for almost two years. You've got quite the ego.

(Of course, a few months down the road I'll just hear "But you're just an intern" and then "You're just a resident" and then "You've only been an attending for a couple years, what do you know that the doctor who has an office next to me doesn't?!")

Well this conversation has reached the typical impasse where either the parties involved agree to disagree or don't agree to disagree but continue disagreeing anyway.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

I have to wonder, if I'm so impressionable, why the doctors I've met who are happy and smart haven't swayed me over to their camp?! Maybe because I'm not a sponge who soaks up whatever emotion happens to sit next to me for three hours a day, but instead have gradually come to my own reasoned conclusions about things. My conclusion is that the majority of doctors who do primarily clinical work are not greatly mentally taxed on any given day. This is saying nothing about whether or not they like their jobs. And I suppose it's a relative thing, as I'm comparing the clinical work I've seen and experienced to jobs, research and individuals that I've seen and experienced in the past, and everybody has their own gauge of what constitutes mental stimulation. I stand by my opinion that people interested in clinical work should not expect the same degree of mental gymnastics that is experienced in research or engineering fields. Your own milage may vary.

Oh, so now your comments are limited to PCPs? Nice change in tune.

 

[sacrament]

Oh, so now your comments are limited to PCPs? Nice change in tune.

Uh, WTF? I said that where, exactly?

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

I'm two rotations (and several months vacation) away from being an MD. I've worked approximately 80 hours a week, give or take, in clinical settings for almost two years. You've got quite the ego.

(Of course, a few months down the road I'll just hear "But you're just an intern" and then "You're just a resident" and then "You've only been an attending for a couple years, what do you know that the doctor who has an office next to me doesn't?!")

Well this conversation has reached the typical impasse where either the parties involved agree to disagree or don't agree to disagree but continue disagreeing anyway.

Ok, so I've worked in a clinical setting for over 4 years @ 50 hours a week. I guess that makes us even in experience, as well as ego.

You really may take offense at the "but you're just a student" attitude, but honestly, do you think it's appropriate for you to make such sweeping jugdgements on the field of medicine as a whole when you haven't practiced a day in your life?

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

Uh, WTF? I said that where, exactly?

:

My conclusion is that the majority of doctors who do primarily clinical work are not greatly mentally taxed on any given day.

 

[sacrament]

Ok, so I've worked in a clinical setting for over 4 years @ 50 hours a week. I guess that makes us even in experience, as well as ego.

Working somewhere in a clinic where medicine is being practiced doesn't constitute "working in a clinical setting" except maybe in the broadest, most literal sense. If that were the case then the 70-year-old receptionist at my PCP's office would have us all beat.

You really may take offense at the "but you're just a student" attitude, but honestly, do you think it's appropriate for you to make such sweeping jugdgements on the field of medicine as a whole when you haven't practiced a day in your life?

Yes.

 

[sacrament]

Read it again. Primarily clinical work (as in, no significant research component). Not primary care work. Maybe an intellectually demanding job is the last thing you need.

So I take it we're disagreeing to disagree? Because I'm getting bored. I'm even going to let you have the last word, I'm such a nice guy.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

Working somewhere in a clinic where medicine is being practiced doesn't constitute "working in a clinical setting" except maybe in the broadest, most literal sense. If that were the case then the 70-year-old receptionist at my PCP's office would have us all beat.

Little bit different working up brain perfusion, mr cardiac, and ct/pet fusion studies than answering at the front desk, wouldn't you say?

Yes.

As far as "last words" in a thread go, you should have left it at that. All hail the omni-sentient and all-knowing msIV.

That response is a great example of why anyone should be hesistant to take your bile-laden, ego-driven advice.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

BTW, I've noticed in another thread you saying how much you hate med school and how you were "born to hate it." Maybe it's time to adress this transfer of agression onto others and realize not everyone is like you, not everyone is "born to hate" med school like you. But I'm sorry you're stuck in such a ****ty place, I would be pissed too being that far in debt to a place I was meant not to be.

 

[sacrament]

I said I was going to let you have the last word, but I didn't mean just yet.

Little bit different working up brain perfusion, mr cardiac, and ct/pet fusion studies than answering at the front desk, wouldn't you say?

So... if your job is such a great immersion into clinical medicine, such a real clinical medicine experience comparable to any medical student's... and if clinical medicine is indeed intellectually stimulating and uber-enjoyable... then why are you, and I quote from just a few posts ago, "more miserable than ever?" You're right smack in the middle of what you crave! An unbridled mental workout, surrounded by genius doctors doing genius things!

BTW, I've noticed in another thread you saying how much you hate med school and how you were "born to hate it." Maybe it's time to adress this transfer of agression onto others and realize not everyone is like you, not everyone is "born to hate" med school like you. But I'm sorry you're stuck in such a ****ty place, I would be pissed too being that far in debt to a place I was meant not to be.

For one thing, it's creepy that you searched through my posts (that quote wasn't that recent, clearly you went looking for it), and now not only do I think you're deluded, I think you're a weirdo. You don't see scanning through everything you've ever written on here trying to find some flimsy ammo againt you. That's weak. Second of all, the Lounge is a place for over-the-top jokes and silliness and I enjoy how you completely took that quote out of the context. And finally, if the only people who ever gave advice about various experiences were the people who totally loved those experiences, then what would the point of advice be? Would SDN really be a useful tool for people if only the folks who absolutely adored medicine posted on it? In other words, why are you such a communist?

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

I said I was going to let you have the last word, but I didn't mean just yet.

NIce way to turn a little dishonesty into a semantic distinction. Maybe you are miserable because law is the field you should truly be in.

So... if your job is such a great immersion into clinical medicine, such a real clinical medicine experience... and if clinical medicine is indeed intellectually stimulating... then why are you, and I quote, "more miserable than ever?" You're right smack in the middle of what you crave! An unbridled mental workout!

Because it's not the same as being a doctor. Neither is what you do.

BTW, notice this the "residents forum," not "med students." I assume when people ask residents if they'd do it again, they don't want to get a bunch of **** from disgruntled students.

For one thing, it's creepy that you searched through my posts, and now not only do I think you're deluded, I think you're a weirdo.

I did not search though your posts, I switched over to the lounge for a second and saw the comment, which taken in context I think indicates a pattern.

Second of all, the Lounge is a place for over-the-top jokes and silliness and I enjoy how you completely took that quote out of the context. And finally, if the only people who ever gave advice about various experiences were the people who totally loved those experiences, then what would the point of advice be? Would SDN really be a useful tool for people if only the folks who absolutely adored medicine posted on it? In other words, why are you such a communist?

Oh, is all this in silliness then? When you say "I wouldn't do it again" are we to take "I hate med school" as a bit of light whimsy? I hope for your sake that is true.

Regarding the point of SDN being a good place for advice: it's not. For some that have no alternative I guess it can provide some practical information. Although I wouldn't include your hatred of the medical field in that category.

 

[sacrament]

BTW, notice this the "residents forum," not "med students." I assume when people ask residents if they'd do it again, they don't want to get a bunch of **** from disgruntled students.

There is plenty of "****" from disgruntled residents here, too. Why did you bother reading this deep into the thread if you think the negative comments in it hold no water? Why don't you start quoting one of the many other med students and residents on this thread who generally agree with me and start telling all of them they're full of sh1t? I mean, you've worked for four years nearby doctors! What does anybody else know?

Oh, is all this in silliness then? When you say "I wouldn't do it again" are we to take "I hate med school" as a bit of light whimsy? I hope for your sake that is true.

I wouldn't do it again. I'm not incredibly pleased by this career choice. When I go on a little jag about being "born to hate" medical school and that it's like being in a Vietnamese prison camp, then yeah Mr. Oblivious, it's a bit of silliness. Are you one of those people who require a 😉 after an outrageous comment in order to discern that it's outrageous?

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

There is plenty of "****" from disgruntled residents here, too. Why did you bother reading this deep into the thread if you think the negative comments in it hold no water? Why don't you start quoting one of the many other med students and residents on this thread who generally agree with me and start telling all of them they're full of sh1t?

And there's plenty of residents that enjoy what they do and don't agree that it's so horrible. Much of it has to do with what type of person they are, what specialty they are in, what institution they work at, etc. That was one of my original points, that there are a variety of opinions on the subject, and that of an angry med student doesn't hold as much weight for me as the advice I've recieved from doctors who've been in private practice for years.

And I never said you were full of ****, only spewing it.

I wouldn't do it again. I'm not incredibly pleased by this career choice. When I go on a little jag about being "born to hate" medical school and that it's like being in a Vietnamese prison camp, then yeah Mr. Oblivious, it's a bit of silliness. Are you one of those people who require a 😉 after an outrageous comment in order to discern that it's outrageous?

I never took the POW comments literally, but it's obvious that you have a distaste for the field of medicine and that comment seemed a part of the pattern. I'm sure if I went to school to be a CPA I'd have something to say along the lines of "I'm the type of person that was born to hate accounting school," and it wouldn't be hyperbole at all.

I'd like to see you retract your paranoid comments calling me a weirdo for searching your post history (which I did not), when the post in question is on the FIRST PAGE of the lounge. I don't think it's reasonable to assume someone is stalking you because they referenced a post that is on the FIRST PAGE of a forum.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

I mean, you've worked for four years nearby doctors! What does anybody else know?

I've worked with them, not just nearby them. I've played a pretty significant role in making our imaging center, IMO, the best in the state.

 

[Poety]

ok ok gentlemen, lets all kiss and make up 🙂

I was just thinking again (I know its scary when I think hehe), and I've already posted in this thread about whether or not I would go into this - see my mind changes everyday regarding that question - I guess because I wouldn't know what else to do I would - but what I was just thinking was, if I was as rich as these people on television there is NO WAY I would go into this again. I might have tried it out and decided whew, this is too much!

I did love research, that was so much fun - and I love wearing my birkenstocks with socks to work anyway - 🙂

 

[gujuDoc]

Dr. Geddy,

Not to bust on you. But again, this thread was meant for actual medical students and residents to tell their thoughts on medicine. If they want to vent here, at least they will be telling us the truth of their thoughts on their career.

I don't think its fair to say we really know the full scale of medicine until we get there and have seen how hard it really is.

 

[gujuDoc]

One more thing........

I knew a lot of students who were just like you last year. Now they are MSI's, and their perceptions are slightly altering due to the reality of what medical school really is like once you are there. Not saying they decided that they hated it. A lot of them like their classmates and their classes, but the shear amount of work and everything you go through sets in once you get there. And when it sets in, it takes away a lot of the idealistic perceptions that one has going in.

 

[Chief Resident]

BTW, I've noticed in another thread you saying how much you hate med school and how you were "born to hate it." Maybe it's time to adress this transfer of agression onto others and realize not everyone is like you, not everyone is "born to hate" med school like you. But I'm sorry you're stuck in such a ****ty place, I would be pissed too being that far in debt to a place I was meant not to be.

That is probably the bottom-line explanation of why people like sac whine so much about why they "hate" medicine.

 

[HP11]

Dr. Greddy,

Let's see if you got the same opinions once you're in your 4th year of med school about to apply for residency. Or better yet, when you're half way done with residency and have worked 80 hours a week consistently for 2-3 years. Until then, stop making yourself look like such a fool.

You got NO EXPERIENCE, dude, so just calm down, take step back and stop posting with your trivial experiences you're so proud of. I came from the research sector too with a graduate degree, and still had no idea, no idea...let me say it again, ....no idea of what it really was like until I experienced it. Except, in contrast to you, I didn't go around telling people who already were in the mix of things about the medical field. What a joke 😡

 

[Poety]

Hey everyone, this is just a thought, but maybe Dr. Geddy is afraid of finding this stuff out for himself when he starts so he's rebuttling it here fiercely. I'm not saying this is true Dr. Geddy - but I can remember when people would tell me not to pursue my dream for whatever reason, I would get really upset and insist I knew better. And I did know better, at least for my life. Which is what you have to remember when you read advice here - its your life and these are just peoples opinions and thoughts. People really are allowed to have and share negative thoughts/ideas even if it differs from your own. I don't think anyone is really saying don't go into medicine, but they're kind enough to share their feelings with the forum. Can't beat em up for that!

Good luck with the application process, adn if you succeed (or already did) then I wish you the best and hopefully you won't become a bitter med student like... welll, me?!!! haha

This process really does take a lot more out of you than you could ever know until you go through it - and I was a nurse who worked right UNDER docs for 13 years, and to be honest, I HAD NO IDEA. None 😉

 

[Lady In Rad]

I am currently a PGY1 doing an intern year. I was quite naive to the degree of workload in medicine including random paperwork, dealing with demanding patients, and terrible hours prior to entering intern year! I think that I had a vague idea of these things prior to med school but thought that my enthusiasm would carry me above that I could handle it. Or maybe it is that when I applied to med school it was the best option as a single person with no experience with a worthless biology degree and now as a married intern with friends making money, the job as a doctor does not seem worth time away from friends and family. Now finished with 1/3 of my intern year I find myself on many nights crying with regrets. I think it is one of those things that you can tell someone what medicine is like but until you are in the middle of your intern year you have no idea how bad it is. Also, many say that residency is bad but then being an attending physician in practice will be better. I am not so sure that this is the case all of the time, I think it depends on the field of medicine chosen and the type of practice. My best advice for anyone going into the fied of medicine would be to shadow as many doctors as you can and talk with many people and be as informed about your choice as it is a entire life time commitment (as it will take a lifetime 30years to pay back loans) 🙁 .

 

[Poety]

Thats great advice Lady and one not brought up a lot - how is the attendings life. Seems a lot of people don't realize just how bad an attendings life can be. My ob even told me, whatever you do - do NOT do obgyn because she said despite how much she loves it, it has consumed her life. (ofcourse with her new baby, shes hating that aspect right now)

To be honest, I probably should have done the NP route - set hours, no where near the amount of time devoted to education, etc - but I like you had a useless biochem degree, with a minor in philosophy! Now what would i have done with that 😳

 

[billydoc]

Thats great advice Lady and one not brought up a lot - how is the attendings life. Seems a lot of people don't realize just how bad an attendings life can be. My ob even told me, whatever you do - do NOT do obgyn because she said despite how much she loves it, it has consumed her life. (ofcourse with her new baby, shes hating that aspect right now)

To be honest, I probably should have done the NP route - set hours, no where near the amount of time devoted to education, etc - but I like you had a useless biochem degree, with a minor in philosophy! Now what would i have done with that 😳

Hey Poety!
Sorry to interject here. I'm an RN for almost 15 yrs now too. Do you really think that you would have been happier being an NP vs MD? I'm going qrazy trying to put the thought about med school to rest. Even though I understand that it's for status, and some delusional thought (in my case) that it will be "better" for me. But this med school keeps popping up in my head. Kind of "what if" I'll regret not doing it latter on in life? But on the other hand many ppl here already have said that they would not do it over, and are regreting doing it in the first place. Do you think you would've been as fullfilled by NP as you are by MD?

Thanks

 

[me454555]

There are many fields in medicine w/set hours it all depends on how you set up your practice. ER is great b/c its all shift work (no call). FP can be pretty cush 9-5 type work as can almost any field in medicine IF YOU SET IT UP RIGHT!!!! I can't stress that enough. Its so much the field of medicine you go into but how you set up your practice. I know 2 cardiologists 1 makes about 900k/year but works 80+hrs/week, the other makes 300k and works 50 hrs/week. Same training different results.

And to anyone who says you won't be rich in medicine......check out some of your attendings houses. While they don't look like cribs they are certainly NOT in the ghetto and look very nice. You may not be Cribs rich but you'll definatly be able to afford the nicer things in life when you become an attending. Life and medicine is all about balance.

Would I do it over again? I'm only a medical student and don't feel qualified to answer. It sux right now but I feel there is light at the end of the tunnel. Talk to me when I'm 40 and I'll be able to answer the question. Its easy to say I'd never do it over again if you ask me in the middle of a $hitty rotation working 80hrs/week but ask me again when I sign my first contract after residency and my answer might be different.

 

[Sanman]

I don't mean to interject, however having just started as a doctoral student, I can relate to both sides of the argument. In my opinion, the way you vuew these decisions changes as you do. Prior to entering grad school, my classmates and I loved the idea of becoming psychologists. We all had clinical experience and I personally worked along side many psychologists and graduate students. I have also worked long hours before, but we all still find ourselves a bit overwhelmed at times. Motivation is hard to find when you're up at 3 am sifting through 400 pages of reading so you'll know the most pointless details for the test tomorrow. At the moment, we're all hanging in there, but at what point does it become too much? The process may or may not be worth it to you. It all depends on how things end up. It is also important to remember that older docs aren't the best to ask about whether it is wortht because they tend to forget how tough it was after a while. Whether it will be worth will always change as your circumstances do. The happier you are in the future and you life circumstances dictate whether you will believe if it will be worth it. Though I have yet to see a medical student/ resident happy all the time. Pain is pain, the question how much are you willing to take to be a doctor. Perhaps those who had other viable options are a little more bitter than those who haven't.

 

[Poety]

Hey Poety!
Sorry to interject here. I'm an RN for almost 15 yrs now too. Do you really think that you would have been happier being an NP vs MD? I'm going qrazy trying to put the thought about med school to rest. Even though I understand that it's for status, and some delusional thought (in my case) that it will be "better" for me. But this med school keeps popping up in my head. Kind of "what if" I'll regret not doing it latter on in life? But on the other hand many ppl here already have said that they would not do it over, and are regreting doing it in the first place. Do you think you would've been as fullfilled by NP as you are by MD?

Thanks

Hi Billy! Me personally, yes. But thats because I always knew I wanted children and started med school really late - I was 28 when I started and took 6 years (one year of research, plus one year for my daughter) so when things pop up in real life - it seems like I have had to put off medicine for whatever reason - I'm not saying the year of research was bad - but not worth it for sure, and ofcourse my daughter is a blessing completely - but I think that if I had to do it over again I would have definitely done NP or PA (but probably NP).

I'm 33 now, and I would like to already be in the groove of things. With my personality it also took me awhile to learn how to be a "med student" which is in ALL essence, the BOTTOM OF THE BARREL - I've been reprimanded for "being inappropriate with nurses" for joking around with them and what not, it is NOT what I thought it would be and theres still a feeling of that "good ole boy" syndrome (ironically, its mostly from the women!).

I would recommend not telling people you used to be a nurse as this can definitely be used against you (except for in your first two years when people will love to hear your stories!) - I keep my mouth shut now, as I've learned - but it took a while to be able to bite my tongue. You'll see what I mean when/if you go into this.

I think as an NP I may have been able to satisfy what I wanted to do without a lot of the hassle. I do understand the idealism and prestige that goes along with the MD, but when I (again personally) weigh the pros and cons, the cons probably outweigh the pros by about 10%. At 33 I may have to sell my house, move to another state, finish up my residency and still be bottom fo the barrel, this is hard after working so independently for so long.

At the end of it all, I don't regret my decision, but I would not do it again. Hind sight REALLY IS 20/20. I say that if you want a regular "job" its not worth the 8 years to get to attending status - but if you really feel that you need to do this, then go for it! I did, I just unfortunately ended up regretting it...

ps You WILL miss the nursing money - I went from 50,000+ a year working 2 days a week to ZERO and now have accumulated <shiver> a good quarter million dollar debt 😱

Good luck! Pleae PM me if you want more info 🙂

 

[Poety]

I don't mean to interject, however having just started as a doctoral student, I can relate to both sides of the argument. In my opinion, the way you vuew these decisions changes as you do. Prior to entering grad school, my classmates and I loved the idea of becoming psychologists. We all had clinical experience and I personally worked along side many psychologists and graduate students. I have also worked long hours before, but we all still find ourselves a bit overwhelmed at times. Motivation is hard to find when you're up at 3 am sifting through 400 pages of reading so you'll know the most pointless details for the test tomorrow. At the moment, we're all hanging in there, but at what point does it become too much? The process may or may not be worth it to you. It all depends on how things end up. It is also important to remember that older docs aren't the best to ask about whether it is wortht because they tend to forget how tough it was after a while. Whether it will be worth will always change as your circumstances do. The happier you are in the future and you life circumstances dictate whether you will believe if it will be worth it. Though I have yet to see a medical student/ resident happy all the time. Pain is pain, the question how much are you willing to take to be a doctor. Perhaps those who had other viable options are a little more bitter than those who haven't.

Excellent post - I concur, and as you can see, Im one of the bitters right now 😳

 

[gujuDoc]

Excellent post - I concur, and as you can see, Im one of the
bitters right now 😳

Poety,

Quick question. With all this talk of NP vs. MD, where would you say PA fits into all this??? If it were NP vs. PA vs. MD, which of the three would you chooose?? Would you still pick NP, or would you pick PA? Why? Just curious.

 

[Poety]

Poety,

Quick question. With all this talk of NP vs. MD, where would you say PA fits into all this??? If it were NP vs. PA vs. MD, which of the three would you chooose?? Would you still pick NP, or would you pick PA? Why? Just curious.

Hi Guju, unforunately I haven't had much experience with PA's at all so I could not answer this question with any substance. I did go to med school with PA's, and they took a lot of the same classes as the MD's - and a couple of them switched into the MD program afterward - but I have no idea what the difference would be since I've onlyh worked with NP's and MD's 🙂

 

[gujuDoc]

Hi Guju, unforunately I haven't had much experience with PA's at all so I could not answer this question with any substance. I did go to med school with PA's, and they took a lot of the same classes as the MD's - and a couple of them switched into the MD program afterward - but I have no idea what the difference would be since I've onlyh worked with NP's and MD's 🙂

Oh ok.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

In the 6 months and as many pages since last I entered this discussion, one consistent idea I'd like to address is the concern about the lack of intellectual challenge in medicine. Whereas this is certainly in the eye of the beholder, I don't agree that clinical practice is always rote or anti-intellectual.

I personally would find outpatient pedi too rote for me, but others don't. I wish this forum had more attendings in general pedi or IM practice who could speak to that.

However, I can speak to what I do, which is care for critically ill babies. In the management of these babies, one has to balance management issues of multiple organ system failure. Often the needs of one organ system compete with those of another, leading to real continuous challenges. It's not hard to find a situation every night in which key management decisions may make a large difference, and often these decisions are not obvious or contained in any guidebook. We find that it frequently isn't until our fellows reach their second or third year of fellowship that they are prepared to prioritize the care issues in critically ill patients as well as the challenge of managing simultaneous problems in a large unit at night. I think this is an intellectual challenge and having done much of my work in college in engineering before going on to biology and medicine, I think it has a lot of similarities to some of the challenges of engineering.

This type of intellectual challenge in medicine may not be apparent to students and even residents, but is available in the careers for those who choose this type of medicine or any type in which there are very sick patients.

Finally, I note that for some of us in academic medicine, one of the best intellectual challenges is educating those who will follow after us. That is probably worth a longer post on its own, but believe me, doing medical education well is not simple or "unintellectual".

So, whereas I agree that research is the most intellectually stimulating aspect of medical practice, I am unconvinced that clinical care is always rote or that other aspects of medicine, such as public policy and education, are not also sources of intellectual challenge.

I hope that those of you who are looking at your future careers will consider the real possibility of finding a field in which you will be intellectually challenged, even if there is a trade-off in terms of salary and hours.

Regards

OBP

 

[A. Melanoleuca]

And there's plenty of residents that enjoy what they do and don't agree that it's so horrible. Much of it has to do with what type of person they are, what specialty they are in, what institution they work at, etc. That was one of my original points, that there are a variety of opinions on the subject, and that of an angry med student doesn't hold as much weight for me as the advice I've recieved from doctors who've been in private practice for years.

And I never said you were full of ****, only spewing it.





I never took the POW comments literally, but it's obvious that you have a distaste for the field of medicine and that comment seemed a part of the pattern. I'm sure if I went to school to be a CPA I'd have something to say along the lines of "I'm the type of person that was born to hate accounting school," and it wouldn't be hyperbole at all.

I'd like to see you retract your paranoid comments calling me a weirdo for searching your post history (which I did not), when the post in question is on the FIRST PAGE of the lounge. I don't think it's reasonable to assume someone is stalking you because they referenced a post that is on the FIRST PAGE of a forum.

Dude, listen to Sacrament. He's giving you good advice and what he says is true, even if it is coming from a guy who regrets his career choice.

I would just say that clinical medicine is occasionally intellectually stimulating but the vast majority of the time it is, if not exactly boring, fairly routine with most of the clinical problems you will encounter fairly common problems which you treat in fairly common ways.

This is why I'm trying to switch out of Family Medicine. Not that I think that Internal Medicine or Emergency Medicine don't have their fair share of "bread and butter" cases but only because Family Medicine is a little too sedate for me. All of the cases that would be intellectually stimulating are referred to specialists. The specialists, for their part, look at a terrifying disease which you may see twice in fifteen years as just another boring day at the office.

I do want to add that while their are boring diseases, there are no boring patients. This alone keeps medicine interesting from my point of view.

When medicine isn't routine it's most often terrifying, at least as an intern when you occasionally find yourself out of your depth with no backup.

 

[Poety]

Great additions to this thread - in resonance of OBP's post above, I'd also like to add that I chose psychiatry for this exact reason - the potential for research and the fact that no TWO of my patients will ever be alike - EVER. I personally find psych very intellectually stimulating which is perhaps key to really not regretting this decision later on. As someone else said too, I may regret it now, but perhaps I won't later on - who knows!

So in knowing that I would not have done this again, (as of right now) I definitely took the time to choose my specialty carefully - and for me the only thing I didn't get bored with is ---- psych. I loved lots of other fields just as much, but in thinking of the super long term, how many cabg's could I relaly have done without getting bored stiff? (this after doing a multitude of electives in this specialty) The rush for me only lasted so long. OBGYN was the other big competitor but lifestyle crushed that idea for me.