If you could go back and do it all over again - what profession would you choose?

[Momus]

most can

Tell that to many floaters in my district getting 0-16h/w with no insurance. They must all be dummies sticking around for 3 yrs+ floating.

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[BelowTheMean]

Geez, some people complaining... at least pharmacist work 32 hours a week and make 60$ an hour.... Med residents make less than minimum wage after med school for 90-100 hours per week... Grass is always greener on the other side..

Yeah and then depending on specialty they can make anywhere 3-5x+ a pharmacist after that. My buddies that went DO and in anesthesia and GI making over 500k/yr easily as a partner. They can fill in for a rural hospital and take home several thousands per shift. They have surpassed my career earnings in like less than 4yrs and have way more vacation time and can easily move anywhere in the usa or even foreign. There's no way i have that flexibility as a pharmacist. I dont know about every doctor, but for the ones I know, the grass is definitely miracle grow greener than mine. Also, this is probably what i'd do if i could do over, CS or med school. CRNA distant third.

 

[mentos]

Geez, some people complaining... at least pharmacist work 32 hours a week and make 60$ an hour.... Med residents make less than minimum wage after med school for 90-100 hours per week... Grass is always greener on the other side..

$60/hr for a new Rph is an outlier today. The average rate is around $50/hr.

 

[deleted562805]

Geez, some people complaining... at least pharmacist work 32 hours a week and make 60$ an hour.... Med residents make less than minimum wage after med school for 90-100 hours per week... Grass is always greener on the other side..

Lol, that’s not even a comparable analogy.
A pharmacy resident makes about the same as a medical resident, but after residency, can only get a part time clinical job working 32 hours per week at $40,000 yearly and a medical resident gets a full time job 40 hours per week ranging from $120,000 if FM upwards to $400,000 IM speciality.

If a pharmacy resident does a fellowship, the pharmacist is not guaranteed for a full time job, where as a medical resident is guaranteed a full time job based on speciality.

 

[deleted562805]

Yeah and then depending on specialty they can make anywhere 3-5x+ a pharmacist after that. My buddies that went DO and in anesthesia and GI making over 500k/yr easily as a partner. They can fill in for a rural hospital and take home several thousands per shift. They have surpassed my career earnings in like less than 4yrs and have way more vacation time and can easily move anywhere in the usa or even foreign. There's no way i have that flexibility as a pharmacist. I dont know about every doctor, but for the ones I know, the grass is definitely miracle grow greener than mine. Also, this is probably what i'd do if i could do over, CS or med school. CRNA distant third.

NP and PA school are a distant fourth, still beats pharmacy.

 

[wagrxm2000]

What I always find humorous with people posting different professions and how much their friends make is do you really think all these current students or recent grads could actually pass these other courses?

No offense but pharmacy is for the dumb student.

My interns keep getting dumber and my floaters are getting worse.

 

[mentos]

What I always find humorous with people posting different professions and how much their friends make is do you really think all these current students or recent grads could actually pass these other courses?

No offense but pharmacy is for the dumb student.

My interns keep getting dumber and my floaters are getting worse.

Especially software engineering/comp sci. They assume anyone can do it. It's not like getting a pharmD at all.

 

[Emmet2301]

What I always find humorous with people posting different professions and how much their friends make is do you really think all these current students or recent grads could actually pass these other courses?

No offense but pharmacy is for the dumb student.

My interns keep getting dumber and my floaters are getting worse.

Esp Med school. Look at the all the stuff the pre-meds have to do to get in. Plus getting in is no guarantee.

 

[redfish955]

The key to a 4 year degree is saving like crazy through your twenties and early thirties. If you are able to save like that you can become very very wealthy and most other professions will have trouble catching up.

 

[Chrish]

Getting into med school wasn’t easy even back in the day (including DO route).

Pharmacy school was extremely competitive decade ago but still not on the same level as med school or even dental school for that matter.

 

[deleted562805]

What I always find humorous with people posting different professions and how much their friends make is do you really think all these current students or recent grads could actually pass these other courses?

No offense but pharmacy is for the dumb student.

My interns keep getting dumber and my floaters are getting worse.

Look who is being negative lol. Are you the same person who said Pharmacy is a Scam is too negative, when what he said was more or ways true.

 

[deleted562805]

Esp Med school. Look at the all the stuff the pre-meds have to do to get in. Plus getting in is no guarantee.

Nothing is guaranteed in this world. You have to earn it.

 

[deleted562805]

The key to a 4 year degree is saving like crazy through your twenties and early thirties. If you are able to save like that you can become very very wealthy and most other professions will have trouble catching up.

That’s good advice especially new grads who have a job right now. You have to treat this like you are living in the Great Depression. This is not the time to take car loans for a BMW

 

[steveysmith54]

I am a CA resident, kind of perplexed as to what is going on with the new MD/DO schools in CA. I haven't done close research, but the newer/less credible pharmacy schools, Cal North State and California Health Univ opened up md/do schools. In addition to Kaiser MD program and a couple of new schools in San Bernadino area, that's a damn lot of new MD/DO programs. I wonder if their graduates just displace international/Caribbean grads for residencies, but from what I see it's starting to look A LITTLE like the 2000-2010 pharmacy school explosion. Any thoughts?

 

[DH1987]

The key to a 4 year degree is saving like crazy through your twenties and early thirties. If you are able to save like that you can become very very wealthy and most other professions will have trouble catching up.

Yep, slave away in your 20's and 30's and hope your health is good enough to enjoy it afterward. That's my plan (seriously).

 

[deleted562805]

I am a CA resident, kind of perplexed as to what is going on with the new MD/DO schools in CA. I haven't done close research, but the newer/less credible pharmacy schools, Cal North State and California Health Univ opened up md/do schools. In addition to Kaiser MD program and a couple of new schools in San Bernadino area, that's a damn lot of new MD/DO programs. I wonder if their graduates just displace international/Caribbean grads for residencies, but from what I see it's starting to look A LITTLE like the 2000-2010 pharmacy school explosion. Any thoughts?

How many PA and NP schools are popping up comparatively? Does CA have a surplus of those schools?

That is interesting. Hope there is only an increase to meet the demand, not exceed the demand unlike pharmacy. Good thing is standards to get in are still high. I have heard the Ivy leagues maintained a steady class size. No increase.

 

[steveysmith54]

How many PA and NP schools are popping up comparatively? Does CA have a surplus of those schools?

That is interesting. Hope there is only an increase to meet the demand, not exceed the demand unlike pharmacy. Good thing is standards to get in are still high. I have heard the Ivy leagues maintained a steady class size. No increase.

Plenty of PA/NP schools, the admission standards/numbers of apps are higher than what pharmacy schools receive though.

 

[deleted562805]

Plenty of PA/NP schools, the admission standards/numbers of apps are higher than what pharmacy schools receive though.

What’s about medical schools in your state? Admissions/ number of apps are still high right?

 

[deleted562805]

Dentists are being bought out by corporations at an alarming rate. Last time I calculated it a couple years ago independents were disappearing in favor of corporates at a rate of 3-4% a year and it was accelerating greatly. Many dentists graduate with $300-$500k loans or more. "Residency" after dental schools requires paying more super tuition for several years and not even getting paid. Some orthodontists are graduating with $1 mill in debt. Imagine graduating with $1 mill in debt with Smile Direct and the dental corps putting dental offices out of businesses left and right with predatory pricing. Aetna is one of the major dental insurers. Guess who owns Aetna now and has Smile Direct locations in their pharmacies? The dentistry profession has already crested and is just starting to begin its freefall. A majority of graduates are being forced to work for corporations now. Dentist salaries haven't increased in a decade. Soon as they continue to take market share the work conditions will deteriorate significantly and wages will plummet. If you're in dentistry right now, you better be growing like wildfire and becoming a corporation yourself, or savings and investing like crazy and hoping you'll last long enough for an early retirement. The sad thing is that dentists have absolutely no idea this is coming. Dentistry for decades has been in it's own little world making ridiculous six-figure salaries for easy, stress-free work. Work 32 hours a week and make $200k+ to talk to patients all day and work on their teeth. I've shadowed multiple dentists and boy, are dentists delusional to what a stressful job actually is. People live in their own little bubble and seldom see the rest of the world/economy. Corporate America finally figured out how to strip the last lifestyle profession of it's dignity. Dentists technically by law are required to own dental organizations. The corps are getting around this by paying a shill dentist to pretend to be the owner and then pocketing all the profits for themselves.

The story in dentistry is the same as everywhere else I'm afraid. It used to be good, but the bill is now coming due. Dentistry was the last profession to hold out.

Wow, I agree. although I heard rural areas are in demand for Dentists. So I guess you can be a independent dentist in a rural are. The downside is most rural people do not have dental insurance, so can Dentist really make a living in rural areas charging the total amount in cash with no insurance?

 

[steveysmith54]

What’s about medical schools in your state? Admissions/ number of apps are still high right?

I haven’t done detailed researched, nor do I want to, really...it’s not healthy to look back and wonder what if.

however, from what I heard a lot MD programs are still receiving record number of apps. The prestige hasn’t gone away. If anything COVID has madE medical doctor and nurses portrayed as heroes, while chuck schumer has compared Pharmacists to non essentials workers, like grocery store clerks.

I never “seriously” pursued md route, and therefore not knowledgeable to answer your question. But, from what I understand, the great equalizer and barrier to saturations for MD/do are residency programs, which I have not heard have been expended, yet. Again, not really sure, just surprised to see new schools popping up and thinking that’s not a good indicator for things to come. Never is

 

[DH1987]

Being a physician has always meant sacrificing your life in exchange for guaranteed huge sums of money rolling in starting in your 40's. Mileage varies greatly depending on your specialty. Some specialties/niches you can work 10 hours a week and make hundreds of thousands. Some you'll be working 80 hours and be on call the rest of your life. Look up news articles about med students who aren't matching to residency who are struggling to find minimum wage jobs after finishing med school. It's a lottery just like every other aspect of the economy we find ourselves in.


In sum, computer science. Tech/data/engineering are the last large industries that offer feasible careers that won't lead you straight to depression (though there are harder to find niches everywhere). The entire economy will be tech in 100 years. My high school English teacher told me to go to college. When I asked what I should study they responded by saying anything. Boy it must have been nice to be apart of that generation. Sad that 18-year-olds will continue to feed into the meat grinder thinking what they want matters in this economy. You're choice has already been made for you.

This guy speaks the truth. Another added bonus is that programming/software engineering does NOT require you to go to school and take on debt, at least right now in 2020. Two-thirds of software developers are self-taught to some degree, one source shows that about 13% of them are completely self-taught (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...re-self-taught-according-to-developer-survey/). The only real requirement is that you are good at it and that you can prove it with your portfolio, along with the basic soft skills that are required for just about any other job, i.e. communication skills, teamwork, etc. You can teach yourself, build your portfolio, or even take a coding bootcamp for a fraction of the cost and time compared to school. I would only consider self-teaching if you're very driven and focused, though.

 

[deleted562805]

I haven’t done detailed researched, nor do I want to, really...it’s not healthy to look back and wonder what if.

however, from what I heard a lot MD programs are still receiving record number of apps. The prestige hasn’t gone away. If anything COVID has madE medical doctor and nurses portrayed as heroes, while chuck schumer has compared Pharmacists to non essentials workers, like grocery store clerks.

I never “seriously” pursued md route, and therefore not knowledgeable to answer your question. But, from what I understand, the great equalizer and barrier to saturations for MD/do are residency programs, which I have not heard have been expended, yet. Again, not really sure, just surprised to see new schools popping up and thinking that’s not a good indicator for things to come. Never is

From what I have read, CMS is not creating any more residency programs.

 

[deleted562805]

Being a physician has always meant sacrificing your life in exchange for guaranteed huge sums of money rolling in starting in your 40's. Mileage varies greatly depending on your specialty. Some specialties/niches you can work 10 hours a week and make hundreds of thousands. Some you'll be working 80 hours and be on call the rest of your life. Look up news articles about med students who aren't matching to residency who are struggling to find minimum wage jobs after finishing med school. It's a lottery just like every other aspect of the economy we find ourselves in.


In sum, computer science. Tech/data/engineering are the last large industries that offer feasible careers that won't lead you straight to depression (though there are harder to find niches everywhere). The entire economy will be tech in 100 years. My high school English teacher told me to go to college. When I asked what I should study they responded by saying anything. Boy it must have been nice to be apart of that generation. Sad that 18-year-olds will continue to feed into the meat grinder thinking what they want matters in this economy. You're choice has already been made for you.

From what I have read, many who don’t match in medicine the first time, end up doing preliminary programs or internship programs and work on research projects in order to get matched the second time. Or the school helps students get part time work or something to that extent.

There is the underlying problem with medical residency is that 4,000 international graduates get accepted to residencies vs 2,000 American graduates.

 

[deleted562805]

Being a physician has always meant sacrificing your life in exchange for guaranteed huge sums of money rolling in starting in your 40's. Mileage varies greatly depending on your specialty. Some specialties/niches you can work 10 hours a week and make hundreds of thousands. Some you'll be working 80 hours and be on call the rest of your life. Look up news articles about med students who aren't matching to residency who are struggling to find minimum wage jobs after finishing med school. It's a lottery just like every other aspect of the economy we find ourselves in.


In sum, computer science. Tech/data/engineering are the last large industries that offer feasible careers that won't lead you straight to depression (though there are harder to find niches everywhere). The entire economy will be tech in 100 years. My high school English teacher told me to go to college. When I asked what I should study they responded by saying anything. Boy it must have been nice to be apart of that generation. Sad that 18-year-olds will continue to feed into the meat grinder thinking what they want matters in this economy. You're choice has already been made for you.

True CS is the only job with flexible work hours and good pay. But didn’t American graduates in Tech companies also go through a rough patch when they were laid off for foreign grads with H1Bs who have the same skill set.

Anyways, in SDN, we tend to have this grass is greener mentality where look at only the positives of other field and ignore the negatives. I know I am a victim of this too. But I think we should point some negatives in other careers.

Anyways, the bottom line is in every industry, there are positives and negatives. Some have more negatives than others like pharmacy. There cannot be a job that has all positives and no negatives. How you individually make yourself competitive in a career is what matters.

Yes, with pharmacy you make yourself competitive, the future of pharmacy offering services through creating start up apps, so get good at programming if you want to stay in pharmacy. Move away from the traditional roles of pharmacy that are crumbling.

In the words of Mark Cuban( a former bartender)“if you don’t make yourself competitive in any field you pursue, you are SOL.”

 

[wagrxm2000]

Look who is being negative lol. Are you the same person who said Pharmacy is a Scam is too negative, when what he said was more or ways true.

Yes he was only negative.

Look who is being negative lol. Are you the same person who said Pharmacy is a Scam is too negative, when what he said was more or ways true.

Yes I'm ashamed of what these colleges have done to the profession I love. This includes the government for allowing students to take out enormous student loans.

I've made it perfectly clear the standards have gone down and with it the quality of floater I have to put up with.

My job however continues to be rewarding and I want to thank Walgreens again for everything they've done for my family.

 

[redfish955]

You guys act like it's easy to earn 80k a year. Median lifetime earnings of a college graduate is like 55k a year. Even if pharmacists are only working 30 hours a week and earning 80k it's still worth doing if it's not absurdly expensive.

 

[DH1987]

if it's not absurdly expensive.

I would say 6 years minimum of school, possibly up to 8 years if you include residencies, and $150-200k in debt + lost income due to opportunity costs and lack of investments/compound growth while in school, qualifies as "absurdly expensive".

Making 80k/year is not easy, but there are more efficient ways to go about it - and I would say the best way right now is through CS.

 

[steveysmith54]

You guys act like it's easy to earn 80k a year. Median lifetime earnings of a college graduate is like 55k a year. Even if pharmacists are only working 30 hours a week and earning 80k it's still worth doing if it's not absurdly expensive.

With what I am seeing, the new grads aren't even getting 30 guaranteed hours, and I can't think of too many professions where new grads made MORE 6 years ago COMPARED to what they make now. If the trend continues, the numbers that you state won't be attainable. I am also seeing 250-300K in debt nowadays from a lot of students in CA.

 

[Emmet2301]

From what I have read, many who don’t match in medicine the first time, end up doing preliminary programs or internship programs and work on research projects in order to get matched the second time. Or the school helps students get part time work or something to that extent.

There is the underlying problem with medical residency is that 4,000 international graduates get accepted to residencies vs 2,000 American graduates.

I do wonder though why/how a PD would take an IMG over an American grad with red flags.

Also, do you have any citations for those numbers? I think for the most part >90% of US seniors match. Idk what kind of red flags those US seniors have that they don't match.

 

[deleted562805]

I do wonder though why/how a PD would take an IMG over an American grad with red flags.

Also, do you have any citations for those numbers? I think for the most part >90% of US seniors match. Idk what kind of red flags those US seniors have that they don't match.

This source from the site Doctors without Jobs. 6% of medical students do not match. 6% equates 1100 per year of American medical students not matching, while 3,700 foreign doctors receive residencies. Residency programs apparently value diversity in their programs. AMA wants Congress to give visas to foreign grades to solve the physician shortage. SoAP, supplemental offer acceptance program does not prioritize American graduates and makes them compete with foreign grads. Remember your tax payer money goes into Centers of Medicare and Medicaid services who funds residency programs.

 

[deleted562805]

I do wonder though why/how a PD would take an IMG over an American grad with red flags.

Also, do you have any citations for those numbers? I think for the most part >90% of US seniors match. Idk what kind of red flags those US seniors have that they don't match.

The statistics are probably true. However, we never get the full story of why these individual students on Doctors without jobs do not match. For example, A doctor on this site did not match despite having honors in clinical work and doing well in basic science courses, but we don’t know what his STEP scores were, we don’t know if this person applied broadly or was just focused on one speciality etc. So many red flags the cite does not tell us.

So best is to ask real doctors in person about the job market and the matching process

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

Dentists are being bought out by corporations at an alarming rate. Last time I calculated it a couple years ago independents were disappearing in favor of corporates at a rate of 3-4% a year and it was accelerating greatly. Many dentists graduate with $300-$500k loans or more. "Residency" after dental schools requires paying more super tuition for several years and not even getting paid. Some orthodontists are graduating with $1 mill in debt. Imagine graduating with $1 mill in debt with Smile Direct and the dental corps putting dental offices out of businesses left and right with predatory pricing. Aetna is one of the major dental insurers. Guess who owns Aetna now and has Smile Direct locations in their pharmacies? The dentistry profession has already crested and is just starting to begin its freefall. A majority of graduates are being forced to work for corporations now. Dentist salaries haven't increased in a decade. Soon as they continue to take market share the work conditions will deteriorate significantly and wages will plummet. If you're in dentistry right now, you better be growing like wildfire and becoming a corporation yourself, or savings and investing like crazy and hoping you'll last long enough for an early retirement. The sad thing is that dentists have absolutely no idea this is coming. Dentistry for decades has been in it's own little world making ridiculous six-figure salaries for easy, stress-free work. Work 32 hours a week and make $200k+ to talk to patients all day and work on their teeth. I've shadowed multiple dentists and boy, are dentists delusional to what a stressful job actually is. People live in their own little bubble and seldom see the rest of the world/economy. Corporate America finally figured out how to strip the last lifestyle profession of it's dignity. Dentists technically by law are required to own dental organizations. The corps are getting around this by paying a shill dentist to pretend to be the owner and then pocketing all the profits for themselves.

The story in dentistry is the same as everywhere else I'm afraid. It used to be good, but the bill is now coming due. Dentistry was the last profession to hold out.

Glad to see dentistry is trashed too. surprisingly SDN trashes every field possible except some niche specialty (OMS, derm, ophth)

this forum seems like a place people go on here to rant lol

 

[DH1987]

Glad to see dentistry is trashed too. surprisingly SDN trashes every field possible except some niche specialty (OMS, derm, ophth)

this forum seems like a place people go on here to rant lol

The only fields that I can't legitimately trash are CS and math/statistics.

 

[Emmet2301]

This source from the site Doctors without Jobs. 6% of medical students do not match. 6% equates 1100 per year of American medical students not matching, while 3,700 foreign doctors receive residencies. Residency programs apparently value diversity in their programs. AMA wants Congress to give visas to foreign grades to solve the physician shortage. SoAP, supplemental offer acceptance program does not prioritize American graduates and makes them compete with foreign grads. Remember your tax payer money goes into Centers of Medicare and Medicaid services who funds residency programs.

I don't know if PDs are taking foreign grads for the diversity. If so, we'd see a lot more foreign grads in more residencies rather than the same programs being foreign heavy.

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

The only fields that I can't legitimately trash are CS and math/statistics.

CS and Math/statistics have their own down sides too. but for youngster in early 30, they are good so far, cant say so when one reach mid 40 or 50ish

 

[TheBlaah]

Two-thirds of software developers are self-taught and never went to school.

I would love to see how you came up with this.

 

[hye345]

Probably history professor. Always enjoyed the subject, and found tutoring pretty fun.

 

[DH1987]

I would love to see how you came up with this.

Hmmm. I do apologize. The numbers I got were for those who were "at least partially" self-taught. I went back and edited the post.

Two out of three developers are self-taught, and other trends from a survey of 56,033 coders

Five extra years in school offer less of a financial boost than you'd think.

qz.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/03/30/lots-of-coders-are-self-taught-according-to-developer-survey/

Over 65 percent of new developers are self-taught. Iâm surprised itâs not 100 percent

HackerRank today published the 2018 edition of its Student Developer Report. The survey, which looks at educational and language trends across over 10,000 students, has some interesting findings, the most fascinating of which is that over 6

thenextweb.com

But self-teaching IS still possible. Less than half of surveyed developers at Stack Overflow claimed to have a degree. It's hard, though.

 

[allantois]

This has got to be the most negative sub forum on SDN

 

[Emmet2301]

This has got to be the most negative sub forum on SDN

Given the the current state of pharmacy I could see why.

 

[wagrxm2000]

So you give back half your paycheck to charity?

Dentist not much more investment to obtain degree, more profitable business, far superior working conditions

We do plan on giving a lump sum to charity when we die

It's also a reason why I hate high taxes. Let us decide where it should go. Everyone knows it will be put to better use over giving it to our wasteful government

Great example, Reed Hastings is donating 120 million to predominately black colleges.

Clearly the government isn't doing anything and you think he'd do this if taxes were higher?

Lower taxes!!!!! Let us decide

 

[deleted562805]

CS and Math/statistics have their own down sides too. but for youngster in early 30, they are good so far, cant say so when one reach mid 40 or 50ish

They did. During Obama’s term, American grads were replaced with foreign grads H1Bs in tech companies . But this problem is affecting other fields too.

 

[Emmet2301]

They did. During Obama’s term, American grads were replaced with foreign grads H1Bs in tech companies . But this problem is affecting other fields too.

To be fair, this would've happened regardless of who was president.

 

[Chrish]

This has got to be the most negative sub forum on SDN

Followed closely by Rad Onc. Those guys make $400k a year and still complain about the job market.

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

They did. During Obama’s term, American grads were replaced with foreign grads H1Bs in tech companies . But this problem is affecting other fields too.

yea, a lot of H1Bs in tech now, and just to be straight, the skills and knowledge of those H1B workers are good so the competition is fierce, job turn over seems high too. the jobs in tech aren't as glorified as they sound.

 

[DH1987]

Followed closely by Rad Onc. Those guys make $400k a year and still complain about the job market.

Wow. The grass may not be greener, but apparently the wallet is.

 

[Argentium]

Honestly if the stars align in pharmacy - e.g. accelerated program, pharmaceutical industry, good at your job ... it is a pretty sweet gig and path.

Getting to director by 30 is otherwise only possible if you slog away in consulting or MD/residency and IMO pharmacy/fellowship is an easier road

 

[KidPharmD]

If I got to start all over at 18, probably Medicine - Either EM or Trauma Surgery. I love my job, but I came at in in a weird way. I figured out what I wanted to do a little bit at a time and was already a pharmacist by the time I really committed myself to pediatrics first then EM later. Now, after making several sacrifices to get where I am, I would have been finishing fellowship by now (because that is what the medicine colleagues I graduated with are doing). Being an EM pharmacist is great but wish there was a path that would let me do more that didn't involve going back to med school at 30+. But if I could be 18 again... (also I would by apple stock and then not worry about money).

 

[PharmDBro2017]

MD; ROI way better than PharmD.

 

[Chrish]

Tbh I have no complain about my pharmacy career. Pharmacy has been quite good to me and because of that, I feel quite financially secure; I am not rich or anything but my career has allowed me to make and save enough money where I can feel confident in providing for my family.

I truly have no regrets.