IGNORE TROLLS, PATH IS A GOOD FIELD...CHECK IT OUT FOR YOURSELF

[dr.weiner]

Like everything worth achieving in life, and in any competitive industry... you need to hustle + be lucky to be successful. Medicine is no different.

Medicine and pathology are more sensitive to simple supply and demand economics. Doctors overall want to be in big cities, and not in the middle of nowhere. Big cities are not incentivized to hand physicians great jobs where there is a glut of applicants, but they are in less desirable cities. This is magnified in pathology because it is a smaller field with less turnover. There are crappier low paying ortho and derm jobs in LA and NYC the same as there is in path, albeit more of them to go around. There are amazing jobs in corners of the country in Path- extremely lucrative, 3 months+ vacation, etc... and this is the same in derm, rads, anesthesia, etc. It's all very similar, again the scale is different. Many industries like finance and tech are only concentrated in large cities, but medicine jobs are everywhere, and are exponentially better a bit off the beaten path. Geographic arbitrage is a privilege that many doctors do not take advantage of- use it!

Personally, Pathology has been amazing fit for me. I have paid off my loans and made a small fortune in a handful of years post training. I did this not because I was some amazing student at the top of my class or anything special, but because I hustled during residency (and still hustle), was geographically flexible, am competent, am personable and people recommended me for good positions, and I also got a little lucky. This formula is not unique to pathology.

Pathology was best for me. I found radiology boring. Anesthesia I could've tolerated but would hate my life waking up at 4:30 am everyday. But path isn't for everyone. To all the people who are looking at those jobs, sift through the nonsense on this forum, do an elective and check it out for yourself.

To those struggling, keep hustling, be personable, and eventually your luck should change. But you can't expect anything to be handed to you, as in anywhere in life. And trolling SDN discouraging anyone to enter the field doesn't help your situation, and only makes your field and yourself look pathetic. I would also consider attending a Tony Robbins seminar.

Let's keep this thread bumped with positive personal anecdotes and above the all caps doom and gloom threads.

- A. Wiener, M.D.

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[peachesorangesapples]

Bump for Dr. Wiener! Thanks for your positivity and reason.

 

[BU Pathology]

In the 12 months Boston University has hired five new board certified pathologists, all Assistant or Associate Professors.

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Chair and Professor of Pathology & Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine\Boston Medical Center

 

[BU Pathology]

Pathologyoutlines just issued their report of the pathology jobs that they list. In the most recent quarter there were 192 jobs posted, which is a more than a 30% increase over the same quarter in 2017. The full report is available here:
Pathologist Jobs Report - Second Quarter 2018

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Chair and Professor of Pathology & Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine\Boston Medical Center

 

[Unty]

Like everything worth achieving in life, and in any competitive industry... you need to hustle + be lucky to be successful. Medicine is no different.

Medicine and pathology are more sensitive to simple supply and demand economics. Doctors overall want to be in big cities, and not in the middle of nowhere. Big cities are not incentivized to hand physicians great jobs where there is a glut of applicants, but they are in less desirable cities. This is magnified in pathology because it is a smaller field with less turnover. There are crappier low paying ortho and derm jobs in LA and NYC the same as there is in path, albeit more of them to go around. There are amazing jobs in corners of the country in Path- extremely lucrative, 3 months+ vacation, etc... and this is the same in derm, rads, anesthesia, etc. It's all very similar, again the scale is different. Many industries like finance and tech are only concentrated in large cities, but medicine jobs are everywhere, and are exponentially better a bit off the beaten path. Geographic arbitrage is a privilege that many doctors do not take advantage of- use it!

Personally, Pathology has been amazing fit for me. I have paid off my loans and made a small fortune in a handful of years post training. I did this not because I was some amazing student at the top of my class or anything special, but because I hustled during residency (and still hustle), was geographically flexible, am competent, am personable and people recommended me for good positions, and I also got a little lucky. This formula is not unique to pathology.

Pathology was best for me. I found radiology boring. Anesthesia I could've tolerated but would hate my life waking up at 4:30 am everyday. But path isn't for everyone. To all the people who are looking at those jobs, sift through the nonsense on this forum, do an elective and check it out for yourself.

To those struggling, keep hustling, be personable, and eventually your luck should change. But you can't expect anything to be handed to you, as in anywhere in life. And trolling SDN discouraging anyone to enter the field doesn't help your situation, and only makes your field and yourself look pathetic. I would also consider attending a Tony Robbins seminar.

Let's keep this thread bumped with positive personal anecdotes and above the all caps doom and gloom threads.

- A. Wiener, M.D.

Thanks for the inspiring post. Aren't you a dermpath?

 

[octopusprime]

Like everything worth achieving in life, and in any competitive industry... you need to hustle + be lucky to be successful. Medicine is no different.

Medicine and pathology are more sensitive to simple supply and demand economics. Doctors overall want to be in big cities, and not in the middle of nowhere.

Big cities are not incentivized to hand physicians great jobs where there is a glut of applicants, but they are in less desirable cities. This is magnified in pathology because it is a smaller field with less turnover. There are crappier low paying ortho and derm jobs in LA and NYC the same as there is in path, albeit more of them to go around. There are amazing jobs in corners of the country in Path- extremely lucrative, 3 months+ vacation, etc... and this is the same in derm, rads, anesthesia, etc. It's all very similar, again the scale is different.

Personally, Pathology has been amazing fit for me. I have paid off my loans and made a small fortune in a handful of years post training. I did this not because I was some amazing student at the top of my class or anything special, but because I hustled during residency (and still hustle), was geographically flexible, am competent, am personable and people recommended me for good positions, and I also got a little lucky. This formula is not unique to pathology.

Pathology was best for me. I found radiology boring. Anesthesia I could've tolerated but would hate my life waking up at 4:30 am everyday. But path isn't for everyone. To all the people who are looking at those jobs, sift through the nonsense on this forum, do an elective and check it out for yourself.

To those struggling, keep hustling, be personable, and eventually your luck should change. But you can't expect anything to be handed to you, as in anywhere in life. And trolling SDN discouraging anyone to enter the field doesn't help your situation, and only makes your field and yourself look pathetic. I would also consider attending a Tony Robbins seminar.

First I can't tell if your name is really A. Weiner or just a weiner.

But listen...

That's great you've paid off your loans and made a "small fortune" in a handful of years (eye roll), but comparing your story to the majority of those entering the field post training, you're an outlier, and your success should not be taken as the old "look at me, if i can do it, so can you" mantra like when we tell our kids to follow their dreams and they can be an astronaut, POTUS, or the next Dirk Diggler...it's just not possible for most ... Sure people that are savvy and amiable and personable and at least half intelligent will be able to better to navigate the field and land a better job, but those attributes land a larger percentage of rads, anesth, derm, gastro, etc etc specialties "better jobs" because there are more of them, and the floor is much higher--and that's ultimately the point here: regardless of what combination of contributing factors it's due to (consolidation, national corporate lab pressure, longevity/retirement postponement, increased workload to maintain income due to CMS cuts...) --- it was harder for you to find you're gig than for most in other subspecialty fields because there is a larger percentage of crap jobs in path. Like I've posted numerous times--you're bringing in multiples of that 200k Quest or U of Anywhere salary, assuming avg volume/caseload, and it's going into different coffers. ... you'll be hard pressed to find any IM subspecialist, radiologist or anesthesiologist making sub400--even if they're employed--unless they're 1/2 time or an idiot or geographically limited...and they're not working 90 hours with 4 weeks vaca.

And even if you possess the A. Weiner list of attributes required for a non-shi*** job, the odds are still likely that you'll have to settle for much less because pathology services have been commoditized.

As I've said before, I'm not coming from the position of overworked low pay/low vaca frustration...I'm easily top 95% income, avg 32 hrs/wk, >2 mos vaca, etc... I love path, and I'm sure as hell glad I did it, but i feel fortunate, not successful on merit alone. there are what, roughly 600 path graduates annually? Do we need 600 newly trained pathologists annually? The answer is not yes simply because our training institutions need to maintain the status quo for pride, grossing needs, etc.

If there were 1/2 as many graduates as currently, corporate gigs (quest, labcorps, ameripath, et al) would be forced to accommodate the supply, and indentured servitude/pod lab setups (GI, GU, derm) would take a dramatic hit. that's not creating artificial scarcity, that's matching the needs with the supply.

 

[Med Director New England]

I've got to respond to this. And anyone can check my previous posts - I am not one of the gloom and doomers who are always posting negative posts about the job market. Currently the job market is bad for pathologists, this is a fact. I am sure lots of posts from folks on this thread are forthcoming but here are my observations.

- Private practice groups that used to be all partners have begun only employing new pathologists and not offering partnership tracks. This is because the job market is so much in their favor they can (lots of good applicants / job) get away with and make a decent margin off the back of the employed pathologist to boost the partners.

- Where I practice graduating residents completing training are doing at least 2 fellowships in order to be competitive for a job. Many are very, very good and still struggle esp if they want to stay in New England.

- I am privy to the specifics of a few job offers from recent grads and I am astounded and saddened at how low the compensation is.

I do think there are a lot of market forces that will make the job marker even tougher. PhD trained folks are doing more and more within CP, reducing work needed from AP/CP trained pathologists. Lab consolidation will continue and improved LISs are allowing paths to do data entry faster. The time at the scope of course is constant but with more efficiency with data entry path's can complete more work each day.

Maybe the job market will improve, I hope it does. But this is the current status quo.

I dont buy into the conspiracy theories of academic path depts intentionally creating this situation for selfish reasons but I do believe the field would benefit by training less paths / yr. Other specialties have done this (see Urology, Opthalmo) and have artfully created a huge demand at times for their specialities.

 

[dr.weiner]

I'm easily top 95% income, avg 32 hrs/wk, >2 mos vaca, etc... I love path, and I'm sure as hell glad I did it, but i feel fortunate, not successful on merit alone.

Keep the positive anecdotes coming! Just want the kids to know that there are people out there doing well for themselves.

I don't have time to rehash the same debates... too busy living my best life... but I'll respond to the first couple I guess. I'm not saying the job market is great, and I think the field could use less trainees, especially in the smaller programs. But many if not all of these issues are not unique to pathology but are affecting all medical specialties, especially similar fields to path like rads. Corporate consolidation, commoditization.. etc... this is the new normal in medicine. And your point that no other specialites make less than 400K is ridiculous, starting academic salaries in big cities you are looking at around half of that, in most fields.

 

[Pathological_Liar]

As usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle. I don't agree with the histrionic "flee pathology now" mantra, but I can tell you both from personal experience and basic observational skills that you're absolutely wrong to dismiss what you see on this forum as "trolling".

I think most aspiring pathologists read threads about the job market/reimbursement and walk away thinking "yeah, but I'm special so that won't happen to me- I speak English fluently, don't have obvious autism, and am good at my job". I thought the same thing as an AMG with excellent step scores, AP/CP board certified, fellowship trained, former chief resident, numerous first authorships in training, >95th percentile in-service exam scores, overwhelmingly positive recs from pathology-famous PD and dept chairs, as well as from other full professors well-known in the target job region.

My job search was miserable. It took 8 months to get a single offer, and included applying to literally every PP posting from at least 6 different general and path-specific job boards I could find + talking to every AP attending in the path dept + CAP and USCAP meeting networking + using CMS billing data to accumulate a list of literally 80-100 path practices within a 200 mile radius of every West-coast city, collecting website/phone number info and cold calling groups offering my CV (this is how I began my morning every day for 3 months of my fellowship). The amount of work that went into receiving a single offer was probably on par with an additional full-time job. If that sounds "normal" to you, then I would say you should probably ask your clinical colleagues about their search. My favorite experience was when a recruiter from one of the 5 firms I sent my CV to called me not to talk to me about a job, but just to ask what patholgists do. She'd been working in physician recruiting for 10 years but had never heard of a "pathologist" and wanted to know what we do.

Some new trainees may have a very different experience. They could have some $600k 1 year to partner position with 12 weeks vacation in their ideal city just fall into their lap while randomly standing next to their USCAP poster describing the variable expression of CD10 in the syncytial variant of myxoinflammatory fibroblastic sarcoma. This does happen to a subset of trainees/applicants, who then wonder wtf all the misanthropic doom and gloom is about. But you cannot judge a job market based only on the most fortuitous data points.

If anyone gets tired of reading conflicting anecdotes, you can just look at basic economic indicators of the job market, including starting salary, signing bonus, benefits, number of job offers, length of job search, distance of job from desired location, job mobility, number of applicants for a given position, recruiter utilization, pre-partner pay scale... Just research these metrics and come to a conclusion for yourself. When is the last time you heard of a pathology trainee being hounded by a recruiter offering a $100k signing bonus and loan forgiveness for 3 years of work?

 

[dr.weiner]

- Private practice groups that used to be all partners have begun only employing new pathologists and not offering partnership tracks. This is because the job market is so much in their favor they can (lots of good applicants / job) get away with and make a decent margin off the back of the employed pathologist to boost the partners.

- Where I practice graduating residents completing training are doing at least 2 fellowships in order to be competitive for a job. Many are very, very good and still struggle esp if they want to stay in New England.

This is true for any medical specialty in a saturated market like Boston.

 

[dr.weiner]

As usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle. I don't agree with the histrionic "flee pathology now" mantra, but I can tell you both from personal experience and basic observational skills that you're absolutely wrong to dismiss what you see on this forum as "trolling".

I think most aspiring pathologists read threads about the job market/reimbursement and walk away thinking "yeah, but I'm special so that won't happen to me- I speak English fluently, don't have obvious autism, and am good at my job". I thought the same thing as an AMG with excellent step scores, AP/CP board certified, fellowship trained, former chief resident, numerous first authorships in training, >95th percentile in-service exam scores, overwhelmingly positive recs from pathology-famous PD and dept chairs, as well as from other full professors well-known in the target job region.

My job search was miserable. It took 8 months to get a single offer, and included applying to literally every PP posting from at least 6 different general and path-specific job board I could find + talking to every AP attending in the path dept + CAP and USCAP meeting networking + using CMS billing data to accumulate lists of literally 80-100 path practices within a 200 mile radius of every West-coast city, collecting website/phone number info and cold calling groups offering my CV (this is how I began my morning every day for 3 months of my fellowship). The amount of work that went into receiving a single offer was probably on part with an additional full-time job. If that sounds "normal" to you, then I would say you've obviously never interacted with any other medical field. My favorite experience was when a recruiter from one of the 5 firms I sent my CV to called me not to talk to me about a job, but just to ask what patholgists do. She'd been working in physician recruiting for 10 years but had never heard of a "pathologist" and wanted to know what we do.

Some new trainees may have a very different experience. They could have some $600k 1 year to partner position with 12 weeks vacation in their ideal city just fall into their lap while randomly standing next to their USCAP poster describing the variable expression of CD10 in the syncytial variant of myxoinflammatory fibroblastic sarcoma. This does happen to a subset of trainees/applicants, who then wonder wtf all the misanthropic doom and gloom is about. But you cannot judge a job market based only on the most fortuitous data points.

If anyone gets tired of reading conflicting anecdotes, you can just look at basic economic indicators of the job market, including starting salary, signing bonus, benefits, number of job offers, length of job search, distance of job from desired location, job mobility, number of applicants for a given position, recruiter utilization, salaries... Just research these metrics and come to a conclusion for yourself. When is the last time you heard of a pathology trainee being hounded by a recruiter offering a $100k signing bonus and loan forgiveness for 3 years of work?

I'm not calling people like you trolls, I think it's obvious who they are. Your insight is valuable and it's good to share. You are one of the most competitive applicants for a job I have ever seen and I feel terrible that you had such a tough time. I will say I know many hundreds of people that have good jobs in pathology that don't have near your resume. I also have personally recruited for 4 positions in my group and can't find many people as qualified as you in our applicant pool.

 

[octopusprime]

Keep the positive anecdotes coming! Just want the kids to know that there are people out there doing well for themselves.

I don't have time to rehash the same debates... too busy living my best life... but I'll respond to the first couple I guess. I'm not saying the job market is great, and I think the field could use less trainees, especially in the smaller programs. But many if not all of these issues are not unique to pathology but are affecting all medical specialties, especially similar fields to path like rads. Corporate consolidation, commoditization.. etc... this is the new normal in medicine. And your point that no other specialites make less than 400K is ridiculous, starting academic salaries in big cities you are looking at around half of that, in most fields.

not talking academics...they're low across the board...but academics comprise a very small percentage of the sample size, just a more well-documented cohort.

 

[octopusprime]

In the 12 months Boston University has hired five new board certified pathologists, all Assistant or Associate Professors.

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Chair and Professor of Pathology & Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine\Boston Medical Center

lmfao ... nevermind the market is doing great.
[fwiw you wanna share what the pay scales for those positions?...didn't think so]

 

[octopusprime]

As usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle. I don't agree with the histrionic "flee pathology now" mantra, but I can tell you both from personal experience and basic observational skills that you're absolutely wrong to dismiss what you see on this forum as "trolling".

I think most aspiring pathologists read threads about the job market/reimbursement and walk away thinking "yeah, but I'm special so that won't happen to me- I speak English fluently, don't have obvious autism, and am good at my job". I thought the same thing as an AMG with excellent step scores, AP/CP board certified, fellowship trained, former chief resident, numerous first authorships in training, >95th percentile in-service exam scores, overwhelmingly positive recs from pathology-famous PD and dept chairs, as well as from other full professors well-known in the target job region.

My job search was miserable. It took 8 months to get a single offer, and included applying to literally every PP posting from at least 6 different general and path-specific job boards I could find + talking to every AP attending in the path dept + CAP and USCAP meeting networking + using CMS billing data to accumulate a list of literally 80-100 path practices within a 200 mile radius of every West-coast city, collecting website/phone number info and cold calling groups offering my CV (this is how I began my morning every day for 3 months of my fellowship). The amount of work that went into receiving a single offer was probably on par with an additional full-time job. If that sounds "normal" to you, then I would say you should probably ask your clinical colleagues about their search. My favorite experience was when a recruiter from one of the 5 firms I sent my CV to called me not to talk to me about a job, but just to ask what patholgists do. She'd been working in physician recruiting for 10 years but had never heard of a "pathologist" and wanted to know what we do.
....

... Sounds pretty awful to me.
Note: i've heard countless stories like yours, yet very few "here's a $600k/yr job" stories...call me crazy but perhaps this suggests the truth is closer to the "job market is pretty bad" perception than "somewhere in the middle"...perhaps you're talking about the mode as opposed to the mean or median...

 

[Med Director New England]

This is true for any medical specialty in a saturated market like Boston.

This is not a Boston specific issue. I know of many sub-specialities that are in huge demand in and around Boston - Urology, General surgery, Pulmonary / critical care, GI, primary care - to name a few. Urologist friend of mine wanted to move a few towns over to be closer to a school that was better for his kids had a new job in literally a day. Pathology is saturated in Boston, New England and everywhere else.

the 600K stories are unicorns folks

 

[LADoc00]

I actually agree with the original poster. For some, Pathology as a field in medicine is a true Godsend. It is engaged in healthcare but at a comfortable distance from the actual day to day trench warfare. Its a comfortable bunker 20 miles behind the lines at Somme with an overflowing supply of Earl Grey tea and crumpets.

That said, the bunker is fairly full. Entrance into this bunker and the cozy fire at the center of it, is well guarded. Some lucky few might get in, sit down and sip tea while perusing the map for an area of the next big push into No Mans Land. But the rest wont make it, they will be shuffled off to the trenches to die, half in shock and half in disappointment that actually got so close to the command bunker but never got inside.

As long as you know what you are getting yourself into, Path is good. But if you walk into this with all "unicorns and rainbows" mode, you will proverbially die in the filth of a trench at the front lines never having tasted the wonderful crumpets and tea some of us enjoy.

If that makes sense. Good luck everyone.

 

[y2k_free_radical]

Like everything worth achieving in life, and in any competitive industry... you need to hustle + be lucky to be successful. Medicine is no different.

Medicine and pathology are more sensitive to simple supply and demand economics. Doctors overall want to be in big cities, and not in the middle of nowhere. Big cities are not incentivized to hand physicians great jobs where there is a glut of applicants, but they are in less desirable cities. This is magnified in pathology because it is a smaller field with less turnover. There are crappier low paying ortho and derm jobs in LA and NYC the same as there is in path, albeit more of them to go around. There are amazing jobs in corners of the country in Path- extremely lucrative, 3 months+ vacation, etc... and this is the same in derm, rads, anesthesia, etc. It's all very similar, again the scale is different. Many industries like finance and tech are only concentrated in large cities, but medicine jobs are everywhere, and are exponentially better a bit off the beaten path. Geographic arbitrage is a privilege that many doctors do not take advantage of- use it!

Personally, Pathology has been amazing fit for me. I have paid off my loans and made a small fortune in a handful of years post training. I did this not because I was some amazing student at the top of my class or anything special, but because I hustled during residency (and still hustle), was geographically flexible, am competent, am personable and people recommended me for good positions, and I also got a little lucky. This formula is not unique to pathology.

Pathology was best for me. I found radiology boring. Anesthesia I could've tolerated but would hate my life waking up at 4:30 am everyday. But path isn't for everyone. To all the people who are looking at those jobs, sift through the nonsense on this forum, do an elective and check it out for yourself.

To those struggling, keep hustling, be personable, and eventually your luck should change. But you can't expect anything to be handed to you, as in anywhere in life. And trolling SDN discouraging anyone to enter the field doesn't help your situation, and only makes your field and yourself look pathetic. I would also consider attending a Tony Robbins seminar.

Let's keep this thread bumped with positive personal anecdotes and above the all caps doom and gloom threads.

- A. Wiener, M.D.

With all due respect,things aren't all that peachy out here in the boondocks either.With decreasing payments, most of us have tried to up our number of specimens/year.That plus consolidation has lessened the demand side for pathologists.I do not trust an academician like DR. REMICK to really know the business side of community pathologists.

 

[Pathbusiness]

The problem is training too many Pathologists to feed a revenue sharing greedy business in which a lot of unnecessary work is considered normal.

 

[deleted314957]

Dr. Remick,you are a good man who has a tough job.
But, in the hi cost north east such as bean town, academic salaries for folks at the sub-full prof/dept/section head are really abysmal. To Imply otherwise is a grave disservice to financially naive young doctors, the vast majority of whom are in staggering debt. Stop the rosy picture. Sure there jobs but the remuneration
is disgusting. Would you enter a field after10 years postundergrad, $200k
in debt, a kid or two in order to work your butt off for $175K/yr without the prospect of a not-too-distant future income of $400K plus?

I do not think people who think this through would do this. AND, it is only getting worse.

There are too many of us old guys here who know what the fruits of our labor can REALLY be worth (as in the past), and how deplorable it is today.

 

[dr.weiner]

If you look at salary and lifestyle data, Medscape data for example, the average pathologist salary is 286K (self employed 370K+), with a much lower burnout rate than primary care, urology, etc.

Bottom line is, there are a lot of pathologists out there making ~300K or more with a good work-life balance and enjoy their job. Just none of them spend their time on this forum. I wish some would post in this thread. Please do.

 

[deleted314957]

OK . In 1992 I made $700k. That is well more than 1M today. I was a typical PP Partner. What the hell is $300K today??? It sure isn’t “good” compensation for your work product.

 

[octopusprime]

If you look at salary and lifestyle data, Medscape data for example, the average pathologist salary is 286K (self employed 370K+), with a much lower burnout rate than primary care, urology, etc.

Bottom line is, there are a lot of pathologists out there making ~300K or more with a good work-life balance and enjoy their job. Just none of them spend their time on this forum. I wish some would post in this thread. Please do.

Like I said I'm happy; closer to 7 figures than most, ample vaca; good hours...but this vantage point--which seems like a vantage point similar to yours--offers a skewed view...we've made it close enough to LAs fire that we're comfy and safe.

 

[jupiterianvibe]

Dr. Remick,you are a good man who has a tough job.
But, in the hi cost north east such as bean town, academic salaries for folks at the sub-full prof/dept/section head are really abysmal. To Imply otherwise is a grave disservice to financially naive young doctors, the vast majority of whom are in staggering debt. Stop the rosy picture. Sure there jobs but the remuneration
is disgusting. Would you enter a field after10 years postundergrad, $200k
in debt, a kid or two in order to work your butt off for $175K/yr without the prospect of a not-too-distant future income of $400K plus?

I do not think people who think this through would do this. AND, it is only getting worse.

There are too many of us old guys here who know what the fruits of our labor can REALLY be worth (as in the past), and how deplorable it is today.

I wish I heard this before I started pathology residency.

After being out practicing for a little while, and seeing how little our work is valued nowadays, I have decided to go into another specialty entirely.

 

[Unty]

Talked to a friend working in Midwest. 250K partner, 10 weeks vacation as partner.

Wasn't a very good resident either. If this dude can get a job I'm sure most competent folks graduating residency can too.

 

[Dro133]

For your practicing pathologists, are there opportunities for pathologists in industry? For example AI companies that are looking to automate parts of path or to discover imaging biomarkers? Or pharmaceutical companies?

 

[pathslides]

For your practicing pathologists, are there opportunities for pathologists in industry? For example AI companies that are looking to automate parts of path or to discover imaging biomarkers? Or pharmaceutical companies?

AI companies mainly uses pathologists for slide annotation to teach their algorithms. I do this on the side. It gets quite boring and tedious after awhile.

 

[pathslides]

Talked to a friend working in Midwest. 250K partner, 10 weeks vacation as partner.

Wasn't a very good resident either. If this dude can get a job I'm sure most competent folks graduating residency can too.

250k as a partner. Man I hope he is only working like 4 hours a day. That seems quite low for a partner.

 

[pathslides]

I wish I heard this before I started pathology residency.

After being out practicing for a little while, and seeing how little our work is valued nowadays, I have decided to go into another specialty entirely.

What you going into?

 

[jupiterianvibe]

What you going into?

not saying publicly as it might reveal my identity.

 

[LBJLA23]

I wish I heard this before I started pathology residency.

After being out practicing for a little while, and seeing how little our work is valued nowadays, I have decided to go into another specialty entirely.

Which specialty?

Nevermind lol

 

[Guest8]

250k as a partner. Man I hope he is only working like 4 hours a day. That seems quite low for a partner.

Agreed. Unless you meant $250k buy-in to be a partner? I'm a full partner making at least 2x that, although with "only" 8 weeks vacation.

 

[Thrombus]

PAY NO HEED TO THE POLLYANNAS OF THE FORUM!

1. Look at what Mike Sheree says. Used to make a fortune but it has dwindled and keeps dwindling!
2. CAP inspections: GETTING WORSE!! What other job has such intrusiveness and tyrannical inspection with NO DUE PROCESS and GROSS PRIVACY VIOLATIONS? These inspections keep getting more and more nit-picky and remind me of stories coming out of East Germany circa 1960! They can and WILL take your livelihood from you if you cross them!!
3. BIG CORPORATION: Exploiting the community pathologists! Stealing their business. Using NON-evidence based medicine with ZERO to NEGATIVE VALUE to exploit the patients. Same goes with POD/IN OFFICE LABS!
4. BIG ACADEMIA: Exploiting pathology trainees to do their work and taking most of the government funded paycheck! This continues the positive feedback oversupply cycle!
5. BIG MOC: ABP Exploiting pathologists by now making us pay yearly and soon to be quarterly/monthly? NON EVIDENCE BASED NON VALUE PRODUCING TIME AND MONEY to them for their most recent MOC schemes!
6. BIG INSURANCE: They can create crooked contracts with BIG CORPORATION to siphon off our business to the lowly poorly performing indentured pathologist who lives their life pushing glass for "the man".
7. BIG HOSPITAL: Uses leverage of oversupply to constantly reduce your wages/benefits and increase your hours/pro-bono work in order to keep your contract

FLEE PATHOLOGY NOW!! FPN!!!

 

[dr.weiner]

OK . In 1992 I made $700k. That is well more than 1M today. I was a typical PP Partner. What the hell is $300K today??? It sure isn’t “good” compensation for your work product.

I made more than that in 2017. Those jobs still exist.

I find it hilarious that you made $$$$ from a lucrative partner salary all those years, sold your practice to Ameripath, and then you are spending your retirement lamenting that new grads "only" make 300-400K in employed Ameripath jobs. Thanks mikesheree!

300-400K for 40 hrs/week without the hassles of clinical medicine and less grind and more intellectual satisfying work than rads (IMO) is still pretty darn good in this era of medicine. Sure, I like making double that, but I was lucky to have partners that were generous and wanted the next generation to prosper.

 

[dr.weiner]

PAY NO HEED TO THE POLLYANNAS OF THE FORUM!

1. Look at what Mike Sheree says. Used to make a fortune but it has dwindled and keeps dwindling!
2. CAP inspections: GETTING WORSE!! What other job has such intrusiveness and tyrannical inspection with NO DUE PROCESS and GROSS PRIVACY VIOLATIONS? These inspections keep getting more and more nit-picky and remind me of stories coming out of East Germany circa 1960! They can and WILL take your livelihood from you if you cross them!!
3. BIG CORPORATION: Exploiting the community pathologists! Stealing their business. Using NON-evidence based medicine with ZERO to NEGATIVE VALUE to exploit the patients. Same goes with POD/IN OFFICE LABS!
4. BIG ACADEMIA: Exploiting pathology trainees to do their work and taking most of the government funded paycheck! This continues the positive feedback oversupply cycle!
5. BIG MOC: ABP Exploiting pathologists by now making us pay yearly and soon to be quarterly/monthly? NON EVIDENCE BASED NON VALUE PRODUCING TIME AND MONEY to them for their most recent MOC schemes!
6. BIG INSURANCE: They can create crooked contracts with BIG CORPORATION to siphon off our business to the lowly poorly performing indentured pathologist who lives their life pushing glass for "the man".
7. BIG HOSPITAL: Uses leverage of oversupply to constantly reduce your wages/benefits and increase your hours/pro-bono work in order to keep your contract

FLEE PATHOLOGY NOW!! FPN!!!

Ahh Thrombus, the Kwisatz Hederach of SDN pathology doom and gloom.

Besides your bizarre and incoherent point comparing CAP inspections to Nazi Germany, all of those other gripes apply to Medicine as a whole. Corporate consolidation has taken over EM and Derm, insurance companies and hospitals are buying up subspecialty practices everywhere, MOC is a pain for all, issues with potential overtraining increasing supply, none of this is unique to Path. What is unique to path is pathologists have too much free time at their computers.

 

[octopusprime]

I find it hilarious that you made $$$$ from a large practice private salary all those years, sold your practice to Ameripath, and then you are spending your retirement lamenting that new grads "only" make 300-400K in employed Ameripath jobs. Thanks mikesheree!

While on the surface I agree with this, you don't know the specifics of Mike's situation...often times a buyout is time sensitive and even if they sold the practice to some new recruits, Ameripath/Quest/et al could still have made life miserable, set up shop nearby, poached business, etc...

But national labs wouldn't be where there are today if our field was united against corporate takeover...ultimately people care more about their own security than the posterity of the field. Which is fine, but if that's the case, complaining about the woes of the field (including the pay) after the fact is hypocritical.

I think other fields are much more immune from corporate intrusion because pathology includes laboratory management & testing (CP) that can be easily "mass produced", discounted, and bundled with the "bread & butter" services--anatomic pathology. Corporate gigs would have to pay more if the applicant pool was smaller, but there is an endless supply of trainees willing to take pennies on the dollar because of location, ignorance, cultural differences (eg. FMGs), etc.... The only way to solve the problem at this point in time is drastically reduce trainees.

 

[Thrombus]

Ahh Thrombus, the Kwisatz Hederach of SDN pathology doom and gloom.

Besides your bizarre and incoherent point comparing CAP inspections to Nazi Germany, all of those other gripes apply to Medicine as a whole. Corporate consolidation has taken over EM and Derm, insurance companies and hospitals are buying up subspecialty practices everywhere, MOC is a pain for all, issues with potential overtraining increasing supply, none of this is unique to Path. What is unique to path is pathologists have too much free time at their computers.

Quick history lesson: 1960's East Germany is Communist Germany when the East Berliners were unfairly and unjustly terrorized by the CMS inspectors and bureaucrats of their time. Many specialties are UNITING AGAINST the MOC where BIG ACADEMIA PATH unites AGAINST the community pathologist!

Any Derm can set up shop nearly ANYWHERE and run a successful practice as they do NOT overtrain in their apprenticeship models! Apprenticeship models have been present since the beginning of time and now are subject to FAT CAT PATH ACADEMICS sucking the teet of the Taxpayer destroying this time tested model that has historically protected professionals.

The same goes with any subspecialist that is IN DEMAND. A FOREIGN CONCEPT to many ignorant trolls on here who would rather CELEBRATE and STEAL MEDIOCRITY FROM THE JAWS OF GREATNESS!

 

[LADoc00]

Ahh Thrombus, the Kwisatz Hederach of SDN pathology doom and gloom.

Nice work, Alia of the Knife...


In case you are wondering if Pathology CAN, ever actually lead to a solid career, here is a text yesterday reviewing my performance for last month with my exec asst., that is my income btw...Im not hitting UCSF Dermpath numbers anymore that Ive slowed down alot but I ain't exactly pulling down minimum wage.

 

[dr.weiner]

Nice work, Alia of the Knife...


In case you are wondering if Pathology CAN, ever actually lead to a solid career, here is a text yesterday reviewing my performance for last month with my exec asst., that is my income btw...Im not hitting UCSF Dermpath numbers anymore that Ive slowed down alot but I ain't exactly pulling down minimum wage.

LaDoc out there killing it like Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen-era Sting. SLAY PATHOLOGY NOW!

 

[Zarniwoop]

Many partners in PP make bank, much higher than non-partners.
Would 4 times higher be a good estimate?
Is this multiple true of other specialties? Do partner orthopods make 4 x's what non-partners in the same practice make?
I don't know the answer, but I'd guess it is 'no'. I'd also guess the answer to why the multiple is so high in pathology is because they can.

 

[octopusprime]

Nice work, Alia of the Knife...


In case you are wondering if Pathology CAN, ever actually lead to a solid career, here is a text yesterday reviewing my performance for last month with my exec asst., that is my income btw...Im not hitting UCSF Dermpath numbers anymore that Ive slowed down alot but I ain't exactly pulling down minimum wage.

that is net receipts, net income, or gross income?

 

[deleted314957]

Like I said I'm happy; closer to 7 figures than most, ample vaca; good hours...but this vantage point--which seems like a vantage point similar to yours--offers a skewed view...we've made it close enough to LAs fire that we're comfy and safe.

Happy! I think I had the best job a pathologist could have.
25 Years as a Community hospital solo medical director with a group to back me up! A super 10 1/2 Navy career prior! I was the luckiest happiest path around.

 

[LADoc00]

that is net receipts, net income, or gross income?

NI, personal. (last part is the most important really)

 

[deleted314957]

I made more than that in 2017. Those jobs still exist.

I find it hilarious that you made $$$$ from a lucrative partner salary all those years, sold your practice to Ameripath, and then you are spending your retirement lamenting that new grads "only" make 300-400K in employed Ameripath jobs. Thanks mikesheree!

300-400K for 40 hrs/week without the hassles of clinical medicine and less grind and more intellectual satisfying work than rads (IMO) is still pretty darn good in this era of medicine. Sure, I like making double that, but I was lucky to have partners that were generous and wanted the next generation to prosper.

It was ENTIRELY my fault that the field hit the skids and I really did find it
absolutely hilarious that I made $$$$ from a lucrative partner salary.

I am even more thrilled that we were able to sell our corp to Ameripath
(Before it was a publicly traded in an IPO while that IPO fever was
on fire!)

So, as Pathstudent here will tell you- I hose young doctors.

IT is my fault that you do not get paid for the fruits of your labor.

 

[deleted314957]

I made more than that in 2017. Those jobs still exist.

I find it hilarious that you made $$$$ from a lucrative partner salary all those years, sold your practice to Ameripath, and then you are spending your retirement lamenting that new grads "only" make 300-400K in employed Ameripath jobs. Thanks mikesheree!

300-400K for 40 hrs/week without the hassles of clinical medicine and less grind and more intellectual satisfying work than rads (IMO) is still pretty darn good in this era of medicine. Sure, I like making double that, but I was lucky to have partners that were generous and wanted the next generation to prosper.

We had the precience to know that the next generation was NOT going to prosper, and NEITHER WERE WE if we were not proactive. We were right.

 

[path_spouse]

For your practicing pathologists, are there opportunities for pathologists in industry? For example AI companies that are looking to automate parts of path or to discover imaging biomarkers? Or pharmaceutical companies?

I'm not a pathologist but I'm an industry scientist in an AI-related area, so I'll answer anyway. I've been surprised by how few MD's I've met in the device industry: Over many years I think I've met two, one of whom was not US board-certified. In my area anyway, companies operate by funding academic physicians to do work that they want done, rather than by directly employing physicians themselves. So there are opportunities to collaborate with companies, but there may not be jobs per se.

 

[tensoranalysis]

I have little sympathy for those of you who feel undercompensated for your work. The salary comparisons and the sense of entitlement on this forum is inflaming. I don't think a salary increase would make you guys any happier.

 

[dr.weiner]

We had the precience to know that the next generation was NOT going to prosper, and NEITHER WERE WE if we were not proactive. We were right.

Talk about self-fulfilling "prescience". I'm happy my group's crystal ball was bit cloudier, otherwise my net worth would be substantially lower

 

[Morichka]

Dr. Remick,you are a good man who has a tough job.
But, in the hi cost north east such as bean town, academic salaries for folks at the sub-full prof/dept/section head are really abysmal. To Imply otherwise is a grave disservice to financially naive young doctors, the vast majority of whom are in staggering debt. Stop the rosy picture. Sure there jobs but the remuneration is disgusting. Would you enter a field after10 years postundergrad, $200k in debt, a kid or two in order to work your butt off for $175K/yr without the prospect of a not-too-distant future income of $400K plus?

I do not think people who think this through would do this. AND, it is only getting worse.

There are too many of us old guys here who know what the fruits of our labor can REALLY be worth (as in the past), and how deplorable it is today.

Unfortunately, there are tons of people who work their butts off in this world who make nowhere NEAR 175K. I would never dare give a comment like yours in public. One of my best friends gets up at 5am, goes home at 11pm, and does it all over again, every day of the week. He's not in medicine. He's middle class like most other people in this country. I know plenty of extremely intelligent people who also work their butts off and don't make the kind of money you think you should make as a doctor.

Now, I certainly hope I eventually get paid a great salary. I hope it doesn't go to my head and start thinking I'm actually better than others or deserve more pay than others who work just as hard. We are not entertainers but the reason we get paid what we get paid is because of the value placed on health by our country and our society, not because we are better than anyone else or smarter than everyone else. Most docs will be able to pay off that debt AND save for retirement while living at a middle or upper middle class lifestyle in a normal sized city like the rest of the country and still retire at a normal age.

My comments here may take some flak but I feel strongly that we are privileged to be able to serve the population as physicians. Let's keep it classy.

 

[Guest8]

Unfortunately, there are tons of people who work their butts off in this world who make nowhere NEAR 175K. I would never dare give a comment like yours in public. One of my best friends gets up at 5am, goes home at 11pm, and does it all over again, every day of the week. He's not in medicine. He's middle class like most other people in this country. I know plenty of extremely intelligent people who also work their butts off and don't make the kind of money you think you should make as a doctor.

Now, I certainly hope I eventually get paid a great salary. I hope it doesn't go to my head and start thinking I'm actually better than others or deserve more pay than others who work just as hard. We are not entertainers but the reason we get paid what we get paid is because of the value placed on health by our country and our society, not because we are better than anyone else or smarter than everyone else. Most docs will be able to pay off that debt AND save for retirement while living at a middle or upper middle class lifestyle in a normal sized city like the rest of the country and still retire at a normal age.

My comments here may take some flak but I feel strongly that we are privileged to be able to serve the population as physicians. Let's keep it classy.

You're missing the point. If you're getting paid $175k yet doing a full load of cases a day, the amount you're getting paid compared to the services being billed in your name is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with whether you deserve or don't deserve to make a great salary. The diagnoses you render result in a certain amount of billing. And being paid $175k means someone else is making that money instead of you, and that someone else is not the janitor, not a PhD, not a foodservice employee. It's another doc or hospital administrator. Do THEY deserve it more than you? No. If you want to argue that the prices we bill are two high, that's a different story. But the prices are set, so you deserve to be paid according to those set prices. Expecting to be paid fairly for the work billed in your name is not entitlement. Don't confuse the two.

 

[deleted314957]

Your first paragraph makes me want to gag.

I did not expect to make the money I made as an established pathologist
and hospital medical director ( and chief of staff, infection control, etc. over
the years) when I was young, relatively poorly educated , unskilled and, therefore had a job where I laid asphalt for near minimum wage for a couple years with my local park district.
Please don’t talk to me about folks working their butt off and not making $175k.
It’s tedious.