Illegal interview question?

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http://castle.eiu.edu/alsb/Archives/JELLvol12/You Can't Ask That final edit.pdf
PDF from ASLB Jounral of Employment and Labor Law, (not the best primary source but I don't have subscription to major law journals)
with references to law and prior cases
you can start at page 4
The conclusions I gained from this reading were the follows:

1) Asking questions related to gender that are not asked of male applicants and/or do not relate directly to the applicant's ability to perform the job functions is bad from a legal liability standpoint
2) Even if not illegal per se, and despite the varying factors and outcomes in these cases, when you read each one and think about the amount of back and forth lawyer playtime in the sandbox IT IS EXPENSIVE to defend these cases

http://employment.findlaw.com/hiring-process/illegal-interview-questions-and-female-applicants.html

Maybe not the best source, but gives some ideas
Asking "Should we refer to you as Mr., Miss, or Mrs.?" being a question is considered dicey, so I would say the below


per @twistedroses

Is not a good idea from a legal liability standpoint.

It is a question referring to gender, and the article I posted, as well as every other thing I could find, said the equivalent of
"While it's perfectly legal to ask questions assessing an applicant's job experience, qualifications, and motivation, employers must avoid interview questions that single out female applicants, and are not also asked of male applicants." - See more at: http://employment.findlaw.com/hirin...d-female-applicants.html#sthash.O58bP9sB.dpuf

An equivalent was stated in the link to the PDF above.

from @twistedroses

The conclusion I have of the above, is that it is in the school's best interest not to have asked this question this way, and that if this came to the attention of the school's legal liability department, questions of this sort would be re-worded to protect the school.

Lastly, schools have been taken to court applying a lot of the same legal principles, therefore the fact that the interview is for school and not employment does not get the school off the legal hook, they will still have to pay an attorney playtime to respond to any suit that a rejection was for academic reasons and that the questions do not represent discrimination

Therefore, @twistedroses reporting this confidentially should not be discouraged but encouraged to protect the school and applicants from suits and discrimination.

TL;DR
1) To minimize legal liability, it is in the school's best interest not to ask the questions posed to OP
2) If OP confidentially reports this to the school, the school will be able to address this issue to reduce legal liability in the future

And this is bad why?


Thanks Crayola. The answer is that it's not a bad idea. Again, I have no clue why this is such an issue. Do you? And I am taken aback by the childish slapping for having the temerity to disagree. Wow. I have to say, I am not digging this, at all. People inferring banning me--for what? Disagreeing? People are fascinating. Why do they bully against those with whom they disagree? I have no fights. I disagree and I've outlined several times why. So then it all comes down to hating on the messenger, I guess. Yea, the guerrilla mudslinging is just. . .bad.

At first I didn't have an opinion on whether or not OP should report to the school. After reading the responses in this thread, I am thinking it might not be a bad idea; b/c people think it's OK to single folks out on things that they really shouldn't--b/c how in the world are these things potential-ms-student or physician related? I've inquired w/o any answers that clearly show the indisputable benefits over risks of asking questions along these lines. All I get is {}.

I don't appreciate the tone of this whole thread at all, and I am surprised and disappointed at some of the comments here.

I really have no desire to continue here or at SDN right now.
 
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I'm so sad I missed this massive forum fight. All the good stuff happens in the last 3 days before my mcat....


There wasn't a massive fight, lol. It's more like make points. People disagree and basically avoid/ignore the points you make. You make them again b/c you wonder if they get them or not. Then they reply and they seem to partly get them, but everything isn't black and white as they see it, so then the thing starts all over again. What a h/a.

Someone wrote that after so many pages of this thread, I hope someone learned something. Yea, it's just to not make points that the majority refuse to consider--and are strangely and vehemently against for some unknown reason. It's like, how dare you have an opinion? I mean we aren't on rotations here.. What gives?

What I have learned?:

1. Interview people any stinking way you want, b/c w/ schools, that's how they roll; so just forget EEOC.

2.OP, you are overly sensitive and should just play the game.🙄

3.The rest of the world is completely idiotic for treading carefully with interviewing in this way. Idiots. What were they thinking?

4.Apparently questioning even messages like, "you are hurting yourself," (by having a difference of opinion????) is, ssshhh, wrong (Play theme from Twilight Zone now.) and will get you a kind response but also a non-responsive to the specific question asked. (shrug) No offense, but that makes no sense either. So, it's just plain up to you to guess at what it may or may not mean. Effective communication?

5. Finally, I have learned that I don't want to deal with this on my own time. Famous words: "You get what you tolerate." So, I'm out.
 
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http://civilrights.findlaw.com/disc...cation-discrimination-complaint-with-the.html
This link asserts that the same laws governing discrimination in employment govern education.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/race/summary.html
Mostly race, and doesn't mention interview questions.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/dcl-title-ix-coordinators-guide-201504.pdf
Title IX Coordinators Guide from the Department of Education
Page 8, or Page 12 per Adobe
"The essence of Title IX is that an institution may not exclude, separate, deny benefits to, or otherwise treat differently any person on the basis of sex unless expressly authorized to do so under Title IX or the Department’s implementing regulations"

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/guid/ocr/sexoverview.html
Overview:
TITLE 34 EDUCATION
SUBTITLE B REGULATIONS OF THE OFFICES OF THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION
CHAPTER I OFFICE FOR CIVIL RIGHTS, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION
PART 106 NONDISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF SEX IN EDUCATION PROGRAMS OR ACTIVITIES RECEIVING FEDERAL FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr106.html
If you would like to read the actual laws governing sex discrimination and education
I excerpted:
Subpart C—Discrimination on the Basis of Sex in Admission and Recruitment Prohibited
§ 106.21 Admission.

(a) General. No person shall, on the basis of sex, be denied admission, or be subjected to discrimination in admission, by any recipient to which this subpart applies, except as provided in §§106.16 and 106.17.
(b) Specific prohibitions. (1) In determining whether a person satisfies any policy or criterion for admission, or in making any offer of admission, a recipient to which this subpart applies shall not:
(i) Give preference to one person over another on the basis of sex, by ranking applicants separately on such basis, or otherwise;
(ii) Apply numerical limitations upon the number or proportion of persons of either sex who may be admitted; or
(iii) Otherwise treat one individual differently from another on the basis of sex. [emphasis mine]
(2) A recipient shall not administer or operate any test or other criterion for admission which has a disproportionately adverse effect on persons on the basis of sex unless the use of such test or criterion is shown to predict validly success in the education program or activity in question and alternative tests or criteria which do not have such a disproportionately adverse effect are shown to be unavailable.[emphasis mine]
 
http://civilrights.findlaw.com/disc...cation-discrimination-complaint-with-the.html
This link asserts that the same laws governing discrimination in employment govern education.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/race/summary.html
Mostly race, and doesn't mention interview questions.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/dcl-title-ix-coordinators-guide-201504.pdf
Title IX Coordinators Guide from the Department of Education
Page 8, or Page 12 per Adobe
"The essence of Title IX is that an institution may not exclude, separate, deny benefits to, or otherwise treat differently any person on the basis of sex unless expressly authorized to do so under Title IX or the Department’s implementing regulations"

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/guid/ocr/sexoverview.html
Overview:
TITLE 34 EDUCATION
SUBTITLE B REGULATIONS OF THE OFFICES OF THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION
CHAPTER I OFFICE FOR CIVIL RIGHTS, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION
PART 106 NONDISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF SEX IN EDUCATION PROGRAMS OR ACTIVITIES RECEIVING FEDERAL FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr106.html
If you would like to read the actual laws governing sex discrimination and education
I excerpted:
Subpart C—Discrimination on the Basis of Sex in Admission and Recruitment Prohibited
§ 106.21 Admission.

(a) General. No person shall, on the basis of sex, be denied admission, or be subjected to discrimination in admission, by any recipient to which this subpart applies, except as provided in §§106.16 and 106.17.
(b) Specific prohibitions. (1) In determining whether a person satisfies any policy or criterion for admission, or in making any offer of admission, a recipient to which this subpart applies shall not:
(i) Give preference to one person over another on the basis of sex, by ranking applicants separately on such basis, or otherwise;
(ii) Apply numerical limitations upon the number or proportion of persons of either sex who may be admitted; or
(iii) Otherwise treat one individual differently from another on the basis of sex. [emphasis mine]
(2) A recipient shall not administer or operate any test or other criterion for admission which has a disproportionately adverse effect on persons on the basis of sex unless the use of such test or criterion is shown to predict validly success in the education program or activity in question and alternative tests or criteria which do not have such a disproportionately adverse effect are shown to be unavailable.[emphasis mine]
Thank you! That is what I was looking for.

I agree that what you bolded is the relevant part of that excerpt. I'm not a laywer, but I think an interview question that did not have discriminatory or malicious intent wouldn't have much ground to stand on as far as treating one gender differently (especially if males have equally difficult questions and the student body is an even split).

I also agree that there are safer questions to ask, but by that logic one should never become a doctor because delivering care is risky and people love to sue (and tort reform is a joke). In summary, I think we both agree with Goro that the question should have been reworded but this isn't something to go to court about!
 
I haven't found cases that were specifically regarding school admission interview questions and lawsuit

My guess is because
1) every institution that gets federal money for education has to have a Title IX administrator to monitor and respond to grievances
2) the following link is how the Department of Education Office of Civil Rights opens grievance cases
http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/ocrcpm.pdf
and if you read it, as I did, you can easily see that the law provides enough rules about documentation to deal with these issues without going to court

That most grievances are addressed without going to court. does not mean they are not addressed. That being said, given my last post, if someone alleges they are being asked "have you considered what it would be like to be a female physician" that they are being treated differently than men unless just as many men are asked, then there will be a response

I doubt a lawsuit will win because to show discrimination you have to show it influenced decisions

However, I'd be willing to put money that the Title IX coordinator would have to address this if it were a complaint, and they would likely instruct interviewers not to ask that particular question

What I posted from the law review before stated that one woman won her case (against an employer however) not because ultimately she wasn't hired based on the questions posed but because there was a significant difference in the questions posed to her and to male counterparts

TL;DR
I think I have read enough and provided my sources to indicate to all of you
that there is no reason to think that a Title IX Coordinator at an educational institution would allow this question to be asked
unless they were asking just as many men, because it is likely a violation of Title IX, and EVEN if it is not,
they would have to document the grievance, and its response, no doubt about that
likely the response to a grievance of this sort would not be to continue to ask the question

now, if you were the Title IX Coordinator documenting the response, assuming you actually read all the legal stuff I posted,
do you
1) document that you have instructed those conducting interviews not to ask that question, and have provided other questions that are not a violation
or do you
2) attach this thread and all the justifications and arguments that this does not violate Title IX?
 
Damn, you people must not need sleep (I had to stay up late and get up early haha.)
 
Essentially what I think she was getting at was whether I would be competent enough at being a physician as a female.
Female physicians do have it rough with comparison to male physicians. It isn't about competence, it's reality. Many struggle to find the time to have children, have to balance an unfair distribution of work and child-reading, end up grappling with out-of-date stereotypes, lower wages, etc. Female physicians have the highest rate of suicide of any recognized career group of females, to give you an indicator, on par with their male colleagues. Being a doctor is hard. Being a female doctor is harder.
 
Looks like jl lin finally snapped huh

Yeah pretty much. Not sure what's going on in this thread anymore.

what-am-i-reading.jpg
 
I work for lawyers (lotsa lawyers and then lawyer wanna be's and then more lawyers and then there's the chief lawyer) ... they saw this thread.

:smack: followed quickly by :whoa:
 
TL;DR
1) To minimize legal liability, it is in the school's best interest not to ask the questions posed to OP
2) If OP confidentially reports this to the school, the school will be able to address this issue to reduce legal liability in the future

And this is bad why?

It depends on what perspective you look at it from. If you're looking at the social justice side, then OP should report it. If she truly feels she was being discriminated against, she could report it professionally and say she was concerned about the question. If she did that, she would need to explain exactly why she found the question offensive, and exactly what she felt the question was implying. The worst that would happen to the interviewer/school is likely just that they would ask the interviewer what she meant by the question, and then either tell her to reword it if it comes across ambiguously (which I think it does, thus this ridiculous thread), not ask it if it truly comes across as offensive/discriminatory, or just say whatever if the interviewer can explain that the intent was not malevolent at all and that it was to benefit the candidate. Either way, it likely won't change much, if anything.

From @twistedroses perspective, it could have much worse consequences. If she reports it and doesn't give an adequate reason as to why she felt it was discriminatory or inappropriate, then she could easily be perceived as overly-sensitive, as she has been by some on this thread. Seeing as being a doctor requires relatively thick skin, it could be seen very negatively and potentially land her a straight rejection. If she doesn't care about the acceptance, cares about the 'justice' aspect more than her acceptance, or already has plenty of other ii's or other acceptances, I'd be more encouraging in terms of telling her to report it. However, imo, reporting something which may have had completely innocuous intentions and was just poorly worded and risking a rejection is not worth it for OP at this point.

There wasn't a massive fight, lol. It's more like make points. People disagree and basically avoid/ignore the points you make. You make them again b/c you wonder if they get them or not. Then they reply and they seem to partly get them, but everything isn't black and white as they see it, so then the thing starts all over again. What a h/a.

Someone wrote that after so many pages of this thread, I hope someone learned something. Yea, it's just to not make points that the majority refuse to consider--and are strangely and vehemently against for some unknown reason. It's like, how dare you have an opinion? I mean we aren't on rotations here.. What gives?

What I have learned?:

1. Interview people any stinking way you want, b/c w/ schools, that's how they roll; so just forget EEOC.

2.OP, you are overly sensitive and should just play the game.🙄

3.The rest of the world is completely idiotic for treading carefully with interviewing in this way. Idiots. What were they thinking?

4.Apparently questioning even messages like, "you are hurting yourself," (by having a difference of opinion????) is, ssshhh, wrong (Play theme from Twilight Zone now.) and will get you a kind response but also a non-responsive to the specific question asked. (shrug) No offense, but that makes no sense either. So, it's just plain up to you to guess at what it may or may not mean. Effective communication?

5. Finally, I have learned that I don't want to deal with this on my own time. Famous words: "You get what you tolerate." So, I'm out.

I can't believe I'm actually responding to this, but I guess I'm a bit of a masochist...

You are also guilty of the bolded yourself and have skirted several points others have made. I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I posed you about whether you think there's a difference between actually discriminating against someone and asking them how they would handle a situation where they were discriminated against...

As to your 'lessons'

1. No, interview people appropriately. Not a single person on this thread suggested that asking illegal or irrelevant questions. Just because a question is difficult and touches on the subject of discrimination does not make the question itself discriminatory.

2. Maybe? The thing is, none of us were actually there, so we don't know the tone or the intent with which the original question was asked. If OP truly feels that her candidacy as a woman was being questioned, rather than her ability as a candidate in general, then she should report it. However, she should be aware that it could easily lead to a rejection, in which case she'll be out of the game altogether.

3. Once again, no. Seriously, one can ask a 'hard question' while treading carefully. It's a single question, not some slippery slope as you seem to have stuck in your head.

4. Not 100% sure what you're getting at, but I'd guess we'd actually be in some agreement on this one. People respond to what they choose to, yourself included. That's what happens when people try and argue with multiple people at once though. Effective communication? No, but that's the internet.

5. Good lesson. It's the internet, usually not worth dumping significant time into.
 
It makes no sense for OP to report the interviewer... I don't really get how the question was discriminatory at all. I think OP was just being sensitive to the tone of the interviewer and how the interview went.

People react to the smallest things... when I was volunteering at a hospital, some random guy (not a patient or doctor or healthcare worker) just barged into the office I was working in and asked where he should put some boxes, and I said, "I don't know, over there." And he reported me to the volunteer coordinator and grossly exaggerated my tone of voice, which was far from yelling or sounding aggressive. Then again, I was really tired so I don't know I sounded to others. He didn't seem very happy when he asked me, so I think he just wanted a scapegoat for whatever happened to him that made him unhappy.

Also, when I was volunteering, a med student touched me in a way that made me uncomfortable, but I didn't report it.

A real question, what's the line between knowing when to report something and being too sensitive? I tend to err on the side of not reporting because I don't like trouble or when there's a gray area.
 
It makes no sense for OP to report the interviewer... I don't really get how the question was discriminatory at all. I think OP was just being sensitive to the tone of the interviewer and how the interview went.

People react to the smallest things... when I was volunteering at a hospital, some random guy (not a patient or doctor or healthcare worker) just barged into the office I was working in and asked where he should put some boxes, and I said, "I don't know, over there." And he reported me to the volunteer coordinator and grossly exaggerated my tone of voice, which was far from yelling or sounding aggressive. Then again, I was really tired so I don't know I sounded to others. He didn't seem very happy when he asked me, so I think he just wanted a scapegoat for whatever happened to him that made him unhappy.

Also, when I was volunteering, a med student touched me in a way that made me uncomfortable, but I didn't report it.

A real question, what's the line between knowing when to report something and being too sensitive? I tend to err on the side of not reporting because I don't like trouble or when there's a gray area.
ok your case is not at all like op's. Someone doing that to you should be reported
 
Lol at the people who think I was planning to take this to court.

It depends on what perspective you look at it from. If you're looking at the social justice side, then OP should report it. If she truly feels she was being discriminated against, she could report it professionally and say she was concerned about the question. If she did that, she would need to explain exactly why she found the question offensive, and exactly what she felt the question was implying. The worst that would happen to the interviewer/school is likely just that they would ask the interviewer what she meant by the question, and then either tell her to reword it if it comes across ambiguously (which I think it does, thus this ridiculous thread), not ask it if it truly comes across as offensive/discriminatory, or just say whatever if the interviewer can explain that the intent was not malevolent at all and that it was to benefit the candidate. Either way, it likely won't change much, if anything.

From @twistedroses perspective, it could have much worse consequences. If she reports it and doesn't give an adequate reason as to why she felt it was discriminatory or inappropriate, then she could easily be perceived as overly-sensitive, as she has been by some on this thread. Seeing as being a doctor requires relatively thick skin, it could be seen very negatively and potentially land her a straight rejection. If she doesn't care about the acceptance, cares about the 'justice' aspect more than her acceptance, or already has plenty of other ii's or other acceptances, I'd be more encouraging in terms of telling her to report it. However, imo, reporting something which may have had completely innocuous intentions and was just poorly worded and risking a rejection is not worth it for OP at this point.

Solid advice
 
@Crayola - the EEOC lawyer just shook her head and said something to the effect that any lawyer taking up this "case" would probably find him/herself in front of a review board as there is nothing there

the other lawyers simply said, "people should leave lawyering to the lawyers" as did the paralegals and contract administrators.

The best way to enact change is from the inside, not through the legal system which has now turned 100% in favor of the defendants (companies, schools, etc). The burden of proof of intent is on the plaintiffs and courts do not look upon frivolous cases with cheer.

Last, there is no case law that is relevant to the proposed question that they would consider relevant.
 
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Christ on the cross!

1. Court only came up because jl lin was adamant that "the court of law" would uphold this as illegal discrimination.
2. Inappropriate touching should always be reported.
3. I am legitimately stoked for my upcoming MMI after this thread. I think that in comparison to many pre-meds, I will shine when responding to ethical dilemmas lol.
 
Lol at the people who think I was planning to take this to court.

Solid advice

Another option is to just wait until after you find out if you're accepted/rejected. If you get rejected, it won't matter if you report it (unless you re-apply there). If you're accepted, you can send an e-mail to admissions or even the professor and ask yourself why she asked the question. It would be a good way to find out what her actual intentions were and possibly make a connection at the same time. A few interviewers might be awful, but I'd be willing to bet that most of them do legitimately care about the applicants as people. Especially if that applicant ends up matriculating at that school.

Also, glad I could actually be helpful with the original question 🙂
 
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Lol at the people who think I was planning to take this to court.



Solid advice


Yes, no one was saying that. It would be a difficult case to prove, unless your lawyer found discovery of a certain pattern, and if they could show issues with other female applicants--or other applicants of protected status.

The thing is it can get messy, and as I said from the outset, I'd be very cautious with this line of questioning. Lawsuits are hard, expensive, long and drawn out, and very tiring--not to mention stressful. People are banking on this and the fact that the student wants to get in somewhere. So, a person can play "Let me tease you by touching over the line but coming right back to my side." It's a needless game, and I say, respectfully, there is something inherently wrong with it--given THE SPIRIT of the EO laws. The spirit of these laws are about treating people in all ways with fairness and respect and without disparity. The best way to do that is to focus on the task at hand as it relates to learning to become and becoming a physician.

There are plenty of things that occur "under-the-wire," and thus are difficult to make legal issues out of--depending. It depends on the merits of the case and anything substantial that could increase them. The depending is how much a person has to spend on a case that won't be given probono/gratis. It depends upon the caseload of the attorney, her/his expertise in this area (EO), where he or she is in their career, and if the benefits of putting all the time in are worth it for him or her in one way or another. Meanwhile there are those that will take non-slam-dunk cases, but it depends some other factors. OP, any potential case you have presented here would need to show more substance and true discriminatory/disparate impact. I am not saying that is or isn't possible, b/c there are a lot of unknowns. Based on what's there alone, it isn't much. And I know you had no interest in this. You just thought that this should be reported to the school, b/c it appears to be a question of a disparate and possibly discriminating nature. As you have seen. Some will agree with you and others won't. What most will do, even if deep down they agreed with you? They'd finesse the question around with a confident answer, and let it go. But again, there is something about the nature of it that is wrong to me, even though I'd play the game. Your gut generally tells you something is wrong for a reason.

The thing is, if it is never brought to anyone attentions, it continues, and then when does the line start moving? I mean if this is really about being interviewed to be accepted into a program to become a physician, how in God's green earth are these questions relevant or even fair-minded?

At the same time, it good to not seem overly reactionary to "pop" questions. But people can play this too. Some people are amazing at the game. And I for one would like to see less gamer type people in medicine. I'd rather see someone get a little riled up about something than someone that sits there perfectly composed but doesn't seem to have an ounce of conviction about something. I didn't know that robotic like people were what MS wanted.

So, If I flinch b/c you ask me about my gender, age, sexual orientation, religion, does that mean I am terrible and w/o composure? Does that mean I will make a bad physician? Maybe it just means I am human--and am happy to be so --as opposed to appearing or actually being tightly controlled and robotic-like. If I yell back, "Hey you are out of bounds you SOB!" Yea. That's a problem. But if I have a look of genuine confusion re: the very nature and purpose of the question, what is that telling you, exactly, Adcom Team Members? Would Burnett's Law be surmised by the members b/c I was not robotic? I mean, exactly how far do you go with this kind of game, and where are the boundary lines? How much can they move? Adcom members, seriously. It's a genuine question.

But it is the spirit of this stepping over the line that is disturbing to me. And that really has been my position in the first place.

Once again, certain "powers" have shown that they can do things that may be seen as somewhat questionable, and therefore, the student should so play the game. Basically when I read in-between the lines here OP, what I see is that you have been told, indirectly, to play the game. "Don't let them see you sweat." Whatever. Of course you have to handle all questions graciously and intelligently. But it seems unfair to treat one group of people differently from another. Like I said, it's kind of snubbing your nose at the spirit of these laws in a subtle or even rationalized way.

Yes. That's my opinion. So sue me or more ridiculous still, hate on me b/c you disagree.

I have gladly responded here b/c of the time Crayola put into her response. As I have said repeatedly, people can do what they want. It's kind of dangerous and needless to me, and you may get away with it for a while, but one day you may not. It's just pointless and unfair to treat people with disparity and to ask them questions that reek as such.

I will say I have learned a lot about A LOT of things from this thread, while also being a bit disappointed in some of the interactions.

So, in short, I am not saying it was the worst question ever to the OP. I am not saying she has a viable case. I am saying it could stir up trouble if not careful, and why go there if it isn't needed? Seriously? Is it really needed? Will it really make a difference in determining if she will be a great student at XYZ MS or a great physician? Will it? No one has shared how this line of questioning does anything of substance for the situation.

But rather than continue to have this turn to back and forth and personal ad hominem, for which sadly some seem to thirst, I am leaving at this for now.

One of my most favorite quotes ever:

“The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles, but to irrigate deserts.”― C.S. Lewis
 
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I am saying it could stir up trouble if not careful, and why go there if it isn't needed? Seriously? Is it really needed? Will it make a difference if she will be a great student at XYZ MS or a great physician? Will it?
Just have to point out again that these topics can be handled respectfully and safely, asking about thoughts/introspection from the candidate without any sort of judgement or discrimination towards them, and that immediate relevancy to MD candidacy will never be a reasonable confinement to put on interview conversations. People that want to behave ridiculously sensitively, and invent a victim role out of anything mentioning the differences in experience in the field between genders, should be ignored rather than catered to.
 
Very false statement alert: Jl lin never was adamant that a court of law would uphold this. I would never make such an idiotic statement without know ALL the merits of the case. Never once did I say or imply such a thing. Who has dug deeper to find any patterns or discovery of anything that would support this? Uh. No one. So, uh, totally NOT what I said.

Is it possible? Again, it depends on the merits and patterns and other factors. (See my response above.)

Learning even more now. Now I am having things stated in my messages that were not stated. Read my reply above.

Finally, in what way do such questions show anything of substance? There person that made the best attempt to convince me was Stagg, but it's still found lacking to me; b/c even such reasoning is highly if not purely subjective. And b/c people can excel at gaming others. Holy cow.

But the false statements are bullying by misrepresentation. Very, very bad form.

My decision to do IF was a solid one.

"When someone shows you what they are, believe them." Maya Angelou was right. Yikes Talk about.....:whoa:
 
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Very false statement alert: Jl lin never was adamant that a court of law would uphold this. I would never make such an idiotic statement without know ALL the merits of the case. Never once did I say or imply such a thing.

:laugh: See your own bolded and italicized text:

The point is, regardless of employment application versus graduate/education program application, basically the same EEOC principles apply, and they can, have, and will be upheld in court.

Pretty clear.

Also read and comprehend the FAQs. These are example of guidelines.

Example, They are saying a bad question is something like asking What year did you graduate high school, as an attempt to get to the applicant's age.

Obviously MS Adcoms have access to age. But they will potentially cause a problem for themselves if they aren't very, very smooth in terms of how they address it--IOWs, not directly. That is, don't directly address it. They'd need to find a more creative way to address it--or just try to weed out under the pretext of other things, which is something I am sure that happens.
 
"The point is, regardless of employment application versus graduate/education program application, basically the same EEOC principles apply, and they can, have, and will be upheld in court."

In what way did you think to take that to mean directly in her (OP's) case????? If you read through, my whole position has basically been on stepping up against the line, and how unnecessary it is.

The EEOC principles do apply and they indeed can, have, and will be upheld in court. Reading in context and with appropriate clues--for any case--if indeed there is enough merit. You aren't carefully reading what I have said.. Where does it say that IN THIS CASE it would be upheld in court, where indeed, as far as I know there is no such case.
Are you deliberating taking my words out of context? It's suspicious for sure. And how does this even fit within in the whole context of what I've been saying.
Re-read my address above--post
#530.

It sums up what I have been saying ALL alone. My biggest beef is the needlessness of this line of questions. Geez, even Stagg got that, and he has been the only one to really put an effort in defending it's supposed necessity. I happen to disagree with him; but he made some good points.

Yikes! I'm going for a run.
 
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Some people are late to the party and don't feel like reading the thread, so they throw out a point that they think hasn't been covered (it has), and then other people who haven't read the thread respond. And round and round we go.
 
but I like to argue...


Do people on this site assume I'm female
you're good at arguing, maybe that's why jl doesn't respond
and no haha just that your comment sounded like a teenage girl talking about a crush lolol

...back to work
 
Well if you read over the last 5 pages (***WARNING*** do not, under any circumstances, read over the last 5 pages) you'll see that people were just going in circles saying the exact same things in very slightly different ways.

Hey, seriously, I have two posts one those pages where I actually brought in the verbage of Title IX law, the Dept of ED's Handbook to Title IX coordinators (a position that must be in place at every educational institution that gets Federal dollars), as well as the Dept of Ed's handbook on Case Management in investigating complaints.

1) every school that gets federal $ has someone that handles discrimination complaints
2) said person follows Title IX law regarding grievance processes
3) Following said law means there must be stated policies regarding the reporting, investigation, and resolving of grievances
4) Title IX coordinator is responsible for overseeing these processes
5) Title IX law forbids retaliatory action against students that bring grievances

I posit given the above:
6) it is likely that directly asking "have you considered what it is like to be a female physician" if not asked of male applicants could be considered Title IX discrimination
7) OP could confidentially report this

I predict the following:
The likely result is that the Title IX administrator interviews interviewer, does some documentation, and suggests as an address to the grievance a different line of questioning
This would likely not need any further legal action, no lawyers involved

The risk is that this somehow damages the OP's app

If it were me, and I had nothing to lose, I would report this and ask that different language be used in interviews for the good of all

When I move further in my career, I will use www.umt.edu/eo/diversity/recruitment/intquest.php
If I am an interviewer in order to ask questions related to diversity

I will encourage others not to ask questions such as "have you ever considered what it would be like to be a female/male physician" or use them myself

All points made in this forum are interesting, and there are many things I would like to know about an applicant, but there are plenty of diversity questions that I can ask that will gain me the information I actually need to hire a qualified applicant sensitive to diversity issues

Since I am a physician, I am used to following all sorts of rules to prevent "microaggressions", risk management, (ASA annual NNT for primary prevention of one MI is about ~150), various medicolegal responsibilities, documentation, control my temper, watch my language and tone, and keep my slacks dry cleaned pressed and pet-hair free, and do it with a smile.

Since I am a physician, I respect people's privacy and try to be sure that questions I ask are medically necessary and not out of curiosity (listen for this distinction at work, you'll catch the difference when you listen to other docs)

So no, I'm not thin skinned, I think the question not the OP is unprofessional, and being the professional I am, I feel not a twinge to adjust my conduct not to ask a question that makes me cringe to hear asked. In my prior post, I expressed that I would hardly flinch to address this question in an interview with aplomb. A professional can answer this question professionally, and a professional can just as easily avoid asking this question.

What seems unprofessional to me is taking any offense to this question being reported and excluded in the future. If it is so easy for the OP to let the question go, it should be that easy for interviewers to let it go as well.

I suspect this question does not follow the rules, and I am fine with any number of rules regarding my professional behavior at work. You will never hear me making fun of obese patients, singing with my hand in someone's vagina, or not adddressing a patient by their title and last name unless they prefer to be addressed otherwise. I dot my i's and cross my ****ing t's.

I'm as PC as PC gets at work.

Elsewhere, that's another story.
 
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I actually did initially (long story). But then something stopped me from continuing :shy:😳 But at least I got spared from a cold rejection! 😀
explains why you were hitting on me at the beginning

Your particular sense of humor screams heterosexual male, IMO
nah chicks are way more sarcastic

Hey, seriously, I have two posts one those pages where I actually brought in the verbage of Title IX law, the Dept of ED's Handbook to Title IX coordinators (a position that must be in place at every educational institution that gets Federal dollars), as well as the Dept of Ed's handbook on Case Management in investigating complaints.

1) every school that gets federal $ has someone that handles discrimination complaints
2) said person follows Title IX law regarding grievance processes
3) Following said law means there must be stated policies regarding the reporting, investigation, and resolving of grievances
4) Title IX coordinator is responsible for overseeing these processes
5) Title IX law forbids retaliatory action against students that bring grievances

I posit given the above:
6) it is likely that directly asking "have you considered what it is like to be a female physician" if not asked of male applicants could be considered Title IX discrimination
7) OP could confidentially report this

I predict the following:
The likely result is that the Title IX administrator interviews interviewer, does some documentation, and suggests as an address to the grievance a different line of questioning
This would likely not need any further legal action

The risk is that this somehow damages the OP's app

If it were me, and I had nothing to lose, I would report this and ask that different language be used in interviews for the good of all

When I move further in my career, I will use www.umt.edu/eo/diversity/recruitment/intquest.php
If I am an interviewer in order to ask questions related to diversity

I will encourage others not to ask questions such as "have you ever considered what it would be like to be a female/male physician" or use them myself

All points made in this forum are interesting, and there are many things I would like to know about an applicant, but there are plenty of diversity questions that I can ask that will gain me the information I actually need to hire a qualified applicant sensitive to diversity issues

Since I am a physician, I am used to following all sorts of rules to prevent "microaggressions", risk management, (ASA annual NNT for primary prevention of one MI is about ~150), various medicolegal responsibilities, documentation, control my temper, watch my language and tone, and keep my slacks dry cleaned pressed and pet-hair free, and do it with a smile.

So no, I'm not thin skinned, I think the question not the OP is unprofessional, and being the professional I am, I feel not a twinge to adjust my conduct not to ask a question that makes me cringe to hear asked. In my prior post, I expressed that I would hardly flinch to address this question in an interview with aplomb. A professional can answer this question professionally, and a professional can just as easily avoid asking this question.

What seems unprofessional to me is taking any offense to this question being reported and excluded in the future. If it is so easy for the OP to let the question go, it should be that easy for interviewers to let it go as well.

I suspect this question does not follow the rules, and I am fine with any number of rules regarding my professional behavior at work. You will never hear me making fun of obese patients, singing with my hand in someone's vagina, or not adddressing a patient by their title and last name unless they prefer to be addressed otherwise. I only wear slacks and a button up at work.

That said, when I'm not at work, I'll listen to gangsta rap, say horse**** and ****show cursing like a sailor, love Dave Chappelle and other racial humor, any politically incorrect humor, wearing daisy dukes and ripped jeans, and just generally don't give a ****. I'll shoot Bambi's mother and gut her with my own hands. SJW puh-leeese.
The fact that a question might only be asked of a woman does not make it Title IX discrimination. As I've said several times, asking someone for their thoughts on the extant sexism in the field is not itself a sexist question.
 
That said, when I'm not at work, I'll listen to gangsta rap, say horse**** and ****show cursing like a sailor, love Dave Chappelle and other racial humor, any politically incorrect humor, wearing daisy dukes and ripped jeans, and just generally don't give a ****. I'll shoot Bambi's mother and gut her with my own hands. SJW puh-leeese.

I didn't mean that every single post was useless, just that the discussion seemed like it stalled and repeated a good few times. I posted a couple times early on because I felt that implying that OP should have shadowed a female doc might not be the best idea.

If I give you some street cred though, will you not say scary things anymore?
 
Hey, seriously, I have two posts one those pages where I actually brought in the verbage of Title IX law, the Dept of ED's Handbook to Title IX coordinators (a position that must be in place at every educational institution that gets Federal dollars), as well as the Dept of Ed's handbook on Case Management in investigating complaints.

1) every school that gets federal $ has someone that handles discrimination complaints
2) said person follows Title IX law regarding grievance processes
3) Following said law means there must be stated policies regarding the reporting, investigation, and resolving of grievances
4) Title IX coordinator is responsible for overseeing these processes
5) Title IX law forbids retaliatory action against students that bring grievances

I posit given the above:
6) it is likely that directly asking "have you considered what it is like to be a female physician" if not asked of male applicants could be considered Title IX discrimination
7) OP could confidentially report this

I predict the following:
The likely result is that the Title IX administrator interviews interviewer, does some documentation, and suggests as an address to the grievance a different line of questioning
This would likely not need any further legal action

The risk is that this somehow damages the OP's app

If it were me, and I had nothing to lose, I would report this and ask that different language be used in interviews for the good of all

When I move further in my career, I will use www.umt.edu/eo/diversity/recruitment/intquest.php
If I am an interviewer in order to ask questions related to diversity

I will encourage others not to ask questions such as "have you ever considered what it would be like to be a female/male physician" or use them myself

All points made in this forum are interesting, and there are many things I would like to know about an applicant, but there are plenty of diversity questions that I can ask that will gain me the information I actually need to hire a qualified applicant sensitive to diversity issues

Since I am a physician, I am used to following all sorts of rules to prevent "microaggressions", risk management, (ASA annual NNT for primary prevention of one MI is about ~150), various medicolegal responsibilities, documentation, control my temper, watch my language and tone, and keep my slacks dry cleaned pressed and pet-hair free, and do it with a smile.

So no, I'm not thin skinned, I think the question not the OP is unprofessional, and being the professional I am, I feel not a twinge to adjust my conduct not to ask a question that makes me cringe to hear asked. In my prior post, I expressed that I would hardly flinch to address this question in an interview with aplomb. A professional can answer this question professionally, and a professional can just as easily avoid asking this question.

What seems unprofessional to me is taking any offense to this question being reported and excluded in the future. If it is so easy for the OP to let the question go, it should be that easy for interviewers to let it go as well.

I suspect this question does not follow the rules, and I am fine with any number of rules regarding my professional behavior at work. You will never hear me making fun of obese patients, singing with my hand in someone's vagina, or not adddressing a patient by their title and last name unless they prefer to be addressed otherwise. I only wear slacks and a button up at work.

That said, when I'm not at work, I'll listen to gangsta rap, say horse**** and ****show cursing like a sailor, love Dave Chappelle and other racial humor, any politically incorrect humor, wearing daisy dukes and ripped jeans, and just generally don't give a ****. I'll shoot Bambi's mother and gut her with my own hands. SJW puh-leeese.
Hey, seriously, I have two posts one those pages where I actually brought in the verbage of Title IX law, the Dept of ED's Handbook to Title IX coordinators (a position that must be in place at every educational institution that gets Federal dollars), as well as the Dept of Ed's handbook on Case Management in investigating complaints.

1) every school that gets federal $ has someone that handles discrimination complaints
2) said person follows Title IX law regarding grievance processes
3) Following said law means there must be stated policies regarding the reporting, investigation, and resolving of grievances
4) Title IX coordinator is responsible for overseeing these processes
5) Title IX law forbids retaliatory action against students that bring grievances

I posit given the above:
6) it is likely that directly asking "have you considered what it is like to be a female physician" if not asked of male applicants could be considered Title IX discrimination
7) OP could confidentially report this

I predict the following:
The likely result is that the Title IX administrator interviews interviewer, does some documentation, and suggests as an address to the grievance a different line of questioning
This would likely not need any further legal action, no lawyers involved

The risk is that this somehow damages the OP's app

If it were me, and I had nothing to lose, I would report this and ask that different language be used in interviews for the good of all

When I move further in my career, I will use www.umt.edu/eo/diversity/recruitment/intquest.php
If I am an interviewer in order to ask questions related to diversity

I will encourage others not to ask questions such as "have you ever considered what it would be like to be a female/male physician" or use them myself

All points made in this forum are interesting, and there are many things I would like to know about an applicant, but there are plenty of diversity questions that I can ask that will gain me the information I actually need to hire a qualified applicant sensitive to diversity issues

Since I am a physician, I am used to following all sorts of rules to prevent "microaggressions", risk management, (ASA annual NNT for primary prevention of one MI is about ~150), various medicolegal responsibilities, documentation, control my temper, watch my language and tone, and keep my slacks dry cleaned pressed and pet-hair free, and do it with a smile.

Since I am a physician, I respect people's privacy and try to be sure that questions I ask are medically necessary and not out of curiosity (listen for this distinction at work, you'll catch the difference when you listen to other docs)

So no, I'm not thin skinned, I think the question not the OP is unprofessional, and being the professional I am, I feel not a twinge to adjust my conduct not to ask a question that makes me cringe to hear asked. In my prior post, I expressed that I would hardly flinch to address this question in an interview with aplomb. A professional can answer this question professionally, and a professional can just as easily avoid asking this question.

What seems unprofessional to me is taking any offense to this question being reported and excluded in the future. If it is so easy for the OP to let the question go, it should be that easy for interviewers to let it go as well.

I suspect this question does not follow the rules, and I am fine with any number of rules regarding my professional behavior at work. You will never hear me making fun of obese patients, singing with my hand in someone's vagina, or not adddressing a patient by their title and last name unless they prefer to be addressed otherwise. I dot my i's and cross my ****ing t's.

I'm as PC as PC gets at work.

Elsewhere, that's another story.
nooo you removed the best part of your post
 
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