Illegal interview question?

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So I just got back an email from a title IX administrator.

You can think I'm making it up, but I'm hesitant to quote them verbatim, or indicate what school this was.

I sent them word for word what the OP presented to us as the question.

They indicated that while there might be situations to ask such a question, they would not allow an interviewer to ask that as part of the admissions process for school.

I'm going to have to say the school title IX administrator's feeling on the matter would be game-ender on this question being permissible in admissions interviews. Adcom be damned.
 
efle said:
explains why you were hitting on me at the beginning


nah chicks are way more sarcastic


The fact that a question might only be asked of a woman does not make it Title IX discrimination. As I've said several times, asking someone for their thoughts on the extant sexism in the field is not itself a sexist question.
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There's a subtle difference. I can tell you're a dude, and that you occupy your weekends with straight-guy stuff (whatever the hell that means *shudder.*)
 
ZedsDed said:
There's a subtle difference. I can tell you're a dude, and that you occupy your weekends with straight-guy stuff (whatever the hell that means *shudder.*)
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Throwing empties at the TV when a ref makes a weak pass interference call?
 
Crayola227 said:
So I just got back an email from a title IX administrator.

You can think I'm making it up, but I'm hesitant to quote them verbatim, or indicate what school this was.

I sent them word for word what the OP presented to us as the question.

They indicated that while there might be situations to ask such a question, they would not allow an interviewer to ask that as part of the admissions process for school.

I'm going to have to say the school title IX administrator's feeling on the matter would be game-ender on this question being permissible in admissions interviews. Adcom be damned.
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but did they say it was something worth reporting?
 
Glazedonutlove said:
but did they say it was something worth reporting?
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If it's against their policy, seems we're in the wrong even if it's a minor offense. But I'm shocked to hear they actually find issue, can't help but wonder if they just have a blanket danger/fear policy like jl lin kept implying that makes them say absolutely no questions mentioning applicant sex/age/religion etc even if the question is not discriminatory. It is sort of their job to err on the side of safety.
 
ZedsDed said:
Wearing flip-flops?
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I do this a lot actually. Aquatic sport and just being a Cali kid in general

ZedsDed said:
There's a subtle difference. I can tell you're a dude, and that you occupy your weekends with straight-guy stuff (whatever the hell that means *shudder.*)
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heh, ya

NotASerialKiller said:
Throwing empties at the TV when a ref makes a weak pass interference call?
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I threw a shoe at my brother when his team beat mine in the Dota 2 International tournament, that's the only sports I watch
 
efle said:
If it's against their policy, seems we're in the wrong even if it's a minor offense. But I'm shocked to hear they actually find issue, can't help but wonder if they just have a blanket danger/fear policy like jl lin kept implying that makes them say absolutely no questions mentioning applicant sex/age/religion etc even if the question is not discriminatory. It is sort of their job to err on the side of safety.
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Surprises me as well. Jl lin was right apparently about playing it safe.
 
efle said:
Well, maybe not "right" as much as "seems to share their paranoia about hyper-litigious SJWs". I'd still bet the farm that no lawyer in their right mind would touch something like OP's complaint though.
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It would be least complicated from their end to just ban all questions regarding these subjects rather than take it case by case and have a blurry confusing line that shouldn't be crossed in interviews. Agreed with you about this verging on paranoid though.

edit: just realized this is what you said above lol.
 
Glazedonutlove said:
It would be least complicated from their end to just ban all questions regarding these subjects rather than take it case by case and have a blurry confusing line that shouldn't be crossed in interviews. Agreed with you about this verging on paranoid though.

edit: just realized this is what you said above lol.
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It's definitely paranoia. I mean, it would be least complicated from their end to not have interviews at all!
 
efle said:
explains why you were hitting on me at the beginning


nah chicks are way more sarcastic


The fact that a question might only be asked of a woman does not make it Title IX discrimination. As I've said several times, asking someone for their thoughts on the extant sexism in the field is not itself a sexist question.
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Seriously, efle, I also posted a lot of law earlier in this thread and you basically ignored it and kept restating your own non-facts. You don't get to make the decision about whether something is a Title IX violation or not. The Department of Education issues regulatory guidance and brings investigations and actions, and courts look to this guidance and other legal precedent to determine what is a Title IX violation. While I don't get to decide either, my highly educated guess is that one could at least make out a prima facie case that if a question is being asked only of women, it is a sex discriminatory practice. Of course, the problem in this context is that interviews are so individualized that it would be nearly impossible to prove that the question was being asked only of women. But that's a separate issue.

Edited to add: Sorry, just saw that crayola posted something very definitive.
 
efle said:
Well, maybe not "right" as much as "seems to share their paranoia about hyper-litigious SJWs". I'd still bet the farm that no lawyer in their right mind would touch something like OP's complaint though.
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Come on, it should've been pretty obvious that the Title IX people would say not to ask the question. They're always going to err on the side of caution for this stuff, it's their job. I would have been shocked if they said that a question with little context that's as ambiguously worded as that was okay. I'd be more interested in knowing if they felt OP should report it.

I'd also be interested to know how they would feel about asking a candidate how they would deal with discrimination. A question like: "Sometimes women in medicine face discrimination in the workplace from patients or even co-workers just because of their sex. How would you address a situation in which a patient was making sexist remarks or acting sexist toward you? What would you do if it was a coworker?" I'm curious because while it does touch on the whole sex/gender issue (which is obviously still relevant in medicine since some female docs are mistaken for nurses), the point of the question is to gauge professionalism.
 
bumblebee611 said:
Seriously, efle, I also posted a lot of law earlier in this thread and you basically ignored it and kept restating your own non-facts. You don't get to make the decision about whether something is a Title IX violation or not. The Department of Education issues regulatory guidance and brings investigations and actions, and courts look to this guidance and other legal precedent to determine what is a Title IX violation. While I don't get to decide either, my highly educated guess is that one could at least make out a prima facie case that if a question is being asked only of women, it is a sex discriminatory practice. Of course, the problem in this context is that interviews are so individualized that it would be nearly impossible to prove that the question was being asked only of women. But that's a separate issue.

Edited to add: Sorry, just saw that crayola posted something very definitive.
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How on earth does a question being appropriate for subpopulations make it inherently descriminatory? Is it wrong to ask non trads what their additional life experiences in the last decade brings to the table since that wouldn't be asked of a 21 year old? And a school policy being "don't touch that with a ten foot pole" doesn't mean all questions around the subject are a Title IX violation, it means a subset are and the school wants to take extremes to be protected

And your posts earlier, as I mentioned then, were adressed to a different issue. Recognizing a general imbalance in hiring/admissions and telling them to fix it is not the same as finding any question about sexism or racism to be inherently sexist or racist
 
rachiie01 said:
@Glazedonutlove and @Gandy741 she'll be back tomorrow. I can't have my avatar changed for too long or I get bombarded with notifications from outraged fellow SDNers 😆

Never thought my avatar choice would matter so much!
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haha it's the same for any long time member who changes their avatar-- can't recognize them anymore


I just realized I'm the one who always gets threads off topic lol... this is why I can't study with people
 
Glazedonutlove said:
haha it's the same for any long time member who changes their avatar-- can't recognize them anymore


I just realized I'm the one who always gets threads off topic lol... this is why I can't study with people
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yea pretty much this ^
 
efle said:
How on earth does a question being appropriate for subpopulations make it inherently descriminatory? Is it wrong to ask non trads what their additional life experiences in the last decade brings to the table since that wouldn't be asked of a 21 year old? And a school policy being "don't touch that with a ten foot pole" doesn't mean all questions around the subject are a Title IX violation, it means a subset are and the school wants to take extremes to be protected

And your posts earlier, as I mentioned then, were adressed to a different issue. Recognizing a general imbalance in hiring/admissions and telling them to fix it is not the same as finding any question about sexism or racism to be inherently sexist or racist
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The very fact that you see it as "appropriate for subpopulations" proves my point. The fact is, how sexism in medicine affects us is a question for everyone, male or female. Similarly, the question of how additional life experience affects a candidate's suitability is a legitimate question for anyone, young or old. One of the doctors I shadowed went to a six-year BA/MD program and entered medical school and then residency when she was very young. To boot, she'd had a pretty sheltered upbringing. She has mentioned to me how difficult it was for her to cope with patients very "adult" problems when she was so inexperienced in life, and thus I think this is a legitimate question for everyone. What I am saying is that the problem here is not with asking about sexism, it's about posing the question in a way that makes it about the interviewee's being female (and probably only asking women about this).

With respect to "recognizing a general imbalance" (I think earlier you referred to promoting diversity in hiring) not being the same as finding a question to be inherently sexist or racist ... you are so missing the point it's not even funny (and before it was just so irritating that I stopped responding). I was talking about the fact that the law does, at times, view facially neutral practices with discriminatory impact to be illegal discrimination--the intent of the employer/school does not matter. The argument is that if such a practice CAN constitute illegal discrimination, you cannot simply issue a fiat that a question is or isn't sexist, or that intent is all that matters. And more fundamentally, you can't make pseudo-legal arguments (about murder and hate crimes) that don't even rely on correct law to support your point ... and as Axes has noted, the argument is in large part about what is morally and socially just, not what is legal.
 
If my interviewer dare asks me about my ethnicity/heritage, I'll sue 'em. Cause they definitely wouldn't ask a white dude that.

How dare someone assume I'm not white just based on my skin color!

bumblebee611 said:
it's about posing the question in a way that makes it about the interviewee's being female (and probably only asking women about this)
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but actually, many get offended by it if they are 2nd+ generation
 
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md-2020 said:
If my interviewer dare asks me about my ethnicity/heritage, I'll sue 'em. Cause they definitely wouldn't ask a white dude that.

How dare someone assume I'm not white just based on my skin color!
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Not sure what you are trying to say. I'm guessing it's some lame attempt at satire or sarcasm but it doesn't seem like it has much relationship to what I said.
 
bumblebee611 said:
I'm guessing it's some lame attempt at satire or sarcasm but it doesn't seem like it has much relationship to what I said.
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You're right, it's way too reasonable to be related to your post.
 
Glazedonutlove said:
but actually, there are people who get offended by it if they are 2nd+ generation
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I mean it can be offensive. I was born in America, not Asia. I'm not a "foreigner" and if I am that makes every single person a 'foreigner" in the United States except for 100 percent blooded Native Americans.
 
Gandy741 said:
I mean it can be offensive. I was born in America, not Asia. I'm not a "foreigner" and if I am that makes every single person a 'foreigner" in the United States except for 100 percent blooded Native Americans.
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I know, but it is hard for others to tell and they might just be curious/interested. I personally never felt like they were telling me I wasn't american or something.
 
Glazedonutlove said:
I know, but it is hard for others to tell and they might just be curious/interested. I personally never felt like they were telling me I wasn't american or something.
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I guess when you live in the Midwest, you start becoming sensitive to racism. I've had to deal with it a lot in the Midwest.
 
Gandy741 said:
I guess when you live in the Midwest, you start becoming sensitive to racism. I've had to deal with it a lot in the Midwest.
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to be clear, I was stating that it can indeed be offensive for many to ask them where they are from--wasn't saying they shouldn't be offended
 
Glazedonutlove said:
to be clear, I was stating that it can indeed be offensive for many to ask them where they are from--wasn't saying they shouldn't be offended
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Ah, my reading comprehension went out the window on that one then.
 
bumblebee611 said:
The very fact that you see it as "appropriate for subpopulations" proves my point. The fact is, how sexism in medicine affects us is a question for everyone, male or female. Similarly, the question of how additional life experience affects a candidate's suitability is a legitimate question for anyone, young or old. One of the doctors I shadowed went to a six-year BA/MD program and entered medical school and then residency when she was very young. To boot, she'd had a pretty sheltered upbringing. She has mentioned to me how difficult it was for her to cope with patients very "adult" problems when she was so inexperienced in life, and thus I think this is a legitimate question for everyone. What I am saying is that the problem here is not with asking about sexism, it's about posing the question in a way that makes it about the interviewee's being female (and probably only asking women about this).

With respect to "recognizing a general imbalance" (I think earlier you referred to promoting diversity in hiring) not being the same as finding a question to be inherently sexist or racist ... you are so missing the point it's not even funny (and before it was just so irritating that I stopped responding). I was talking about the fact that the law does, at times, view facially neutral practices with discriminatory impact to be illegal discrimination--the intent of the employer/school does not matter. The argument is that if such a practice CAN constitute illegal discrimination, you cannot simply issue a fiat that a question is or isn't sexist, or that intent is all that matters. And more fundamentally, you can't make pseudo-legal arguments (about murder and hate crimes) that don't even rely on correct law to support your point ... and as Axes has noted, the argument is in large part about what is morally and socially just, not what is legal.
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You're absolutely right - I'd have zero issue with such a question about sexism or racism also being asked of a male or white, because it is a completely non-discriminatory question for anyone. But it's nonsense to claim that actually being a part of the minority and thus much more sensitive to and impacted by the -ism does not change the relevancy of the topic. Same as asking about views on healthcare is fair game for anyone but especially relevant and appropriate to people with degrees in econ and public policy etc.

My original point was that this question is not inherently sexist and to bring it to court you'd never get anywhere unless you could show evidence of sexist motives present in the people asking, such as by showing they only hire men. This (that the question is not inherently sexist, you'd really be trying to prove the people asking are sexist) is a different logic from recognizing imbalance and legally mandating correction, where there clearly is some bias creating the situation and they just aren't pointing fingers at particular people or instances. What was my faulty logic about something like hate crimes? Was a wrong when I said straight white males can and do assess on the jury? Or when I said it does not become a hate crime based solely on whether the victim feels it was?

I apologize if having your arguments challenged is too frustrating, I'm sure people will understand you were just so clearly correct that any counterpoints could never be worth responding to.
 
Stagg737 said:
Come on, it should've been pretty obvious that the Title IX people would say not to ask the question. They're always going to err on the side of caution for this stuff, it's their job. I would have been shocked if they said that a question with little context that's as ambiguously worded as that was okay. I'd be more interested in knowing if they felt OP should report it.

I'd also be interested to know how they would feel about asking a candidate how they would deal with discrimination. A question like: "Sometimes women in medicine face discrimination in the workplace from patients or even co-workers just because of their sex. How would you address a situation in which a patient was making sexist remarks or acting sexist toward you? What would you do if it was a coworker?" I'm curious because while it does touch on the whole sex/gender issue (which is obviously still relevant in medicine since some female docs are mistaken for nurses), the point of the question is to gauge professionalism.
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I posted an article (my last one I think) a link to Montana University about examples of questions to ask about diversity.

There's a way to ask these questions that are kosher.

I wouldn't make a fuss being asked "have you ever considered what it would be like to be a female physician, student, McDonald's worker, garbage collector, elderly asswiper," but the implication offends me. What offends me more is no one would ask me how I would feel being a female high school teacher or a female nurse.

As far as I know I've always been the gender I am and it's something I've always considered when experience called on me. It's not like I forget what color I am. Usually I don't have to think about my genitals unless I'm interacting with dickwipes. In which case I tell them what's in my pants is my business.

Why on Earth am I being asked about my genitals to be a doctor or a professor but not to work at McDonald's? Is that somehow more or less difficult as a woman? God forbid I breed, the only difference between me and a man that might impact my work (aside from sexism). And being a mother would be harder working at McD's.

Because people will think I'm dumber? It will be a problem when I breed? I can't benchpress as much? Men will call me hun darling here sit back you suck little girl?

It's insulting because it implies I have to think about being female, and that somehow I haven't, and that somehow this will pose problems for me that need to be addressed in assessing if I am qualified for the admission or position.

Maybe I've never dealt with those things and then I get to med school and I forget how to be a woman. I forget how to have manners in the face of sexism I've always dealt with. There will be no training what to do when sexism happens.

You are either concerned how my breeding will impact work/life balance (illegal on its face)

Or as you say, the concept of how I handle sexism.

We don't ask nurses what they'll do when an old delirious patient grabs their tit.

If you want to know how I'll handle dickwipes throwing me sexism, ask me "was there ever a time where someone discriminated against you? Unfairly judged you? How did you respond?"

You'd learn more about me. I'd talk about being made fun of for being poor. I'd talk about the time someone said they didn't want a --- ethnicity treating them, and that was my ethnicity but they didn't know it. I'd talk about a time someone thought I was too young.

I wouldn't have to talk about what's in my pants.

If that was really really really that important to ask, you could find ways.

"Medicine is a diverse field. We treat patients of all ethnicities, religions, genders. How would you handle it if a patient felt they were different from you and didn't want you to care for them but no one else was available? How do you handle diversity? How do you handle it when you see someone else discriminate on the basis of protected class, such as gender?"

And on and on.

IRL as opposed to SDN, I play it close to the vest, but I've spoken up. "I'm not sure we're giving the right message asking about what it's like to be a woman. Maybe we can ask candidates...."

**** yeah let's call people out on this. The SJW are reason anythings gotten better for anyone. Sit down at the lunch counter. Tell people what you think about what's in your pants is not their concern, and if they're concerned about it then maybe they need to reevaluate their priorities.

"I'm sorry Patient X, you'd rather have an older male doctor? I'm afraid there's no one free at the moment. You're in the ---- part of the hospital. You have a medical problem. I've spent 4 years in college, and another 4 years in medical school, 8 years so I could be an expert in human health. I can help you. I won't hesitate to get help from any other doctor we need to consult. Right now, I'm here and ready to help you. You are always free to choose not to receive medical care, but I don't think it's a good idea, and I'm willing amd able. How would you like to proceed?

The script for dealing with this **** is so easy to learn I don't know why it's something for an interview.

Go to med school. Tell people take it or leave it.

Document that you tried to help and the patient refused because you have boobs. All I owe a patient is an offer of help, sympathy, good advice, freedom of choice. They can choose not to get care and die for all I care (I'm not getting into minors or incompetence). Listen, I try to charm, explain, cajole, scare, empathize, poker face, whatever with the best of them to get them care, but I'm not their mommy and if none of that works I did my part and they can just choose to go untreated for all I care.

I wouldn't ask a male ob/gyn what they thought it would be like.

I wouldn't ask a white person what they think it would be like to be a minority in some of these hospital populations. I ask them kosher diversity questions.

Maybe I don't assume because they're white and the patients are going to give them **** that they're going to buckle. White and ethnic, old and young, man and woman, we're just going to have to tough it out and get along together. The patients will have to learn to get alo g with you and you with them.
 
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It's not about minority.

It's called asking people how they handle being color, age, sex, etc affects their jobs. The question alone suggests I'm worried it will, which means I am taking those factors into account in admissions/hiring.

If you want to know if the interviewee is a bumwipe or knows how to handle bumwipery, I'll pull my head out of my bum and ask better questions.

None of us gets to be lazy about being PC anymore. The patients will sue my ass (they will not hesitate unlike students) and I'm smart enough to have learned how to talk to people with skin and genitals without offending them, even if they don't like mine.
 
The whole "let them go untreated for all I care" thing doesn't really fly in admissions. See: URMs and patient same-race physician preferences. Saying "they had access to a good doctor, if they chose not to trust him because he was white then let them suffer what do we care" seems pretty messed up to me.

And do you really not see how it matters if the field is historically male vs female dominated? Nobody is going to ask about how you feel about nursing or teaching because they want to hear how youd deal with being the odd person out and potential target of -ism , not how you'd feel about being the safe normal majority.
 
Glazedonutlove said:
inferiority in terms of earnings, respect, acceptance
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That's not indicative of any real inferiority, it's indicative of unjustifiable discrimination which is the whole point! If someone is going into a field that is dominated by the other gender, asking them their thoughts on the associated challenges doesn't imply anything about them actually being lesser in ability
 
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