Oh, and it's a little late on the procreation and doctoring front.
This response to my post, or if it was to another's, I don't understand your meaning and I was just wondering if you could explain what you meant.
Welp i tried and i got attacked by a resident in the process 😢
Hey, sorry, I meant that as an analogy. For the record, I wouldn't physically attack you unless self-defense.
Right before your post was one about teaching people to be victim blamers and to be victims, and I don't consider these little sexist slights "nuisances." I was angry at that word choice and the implication to let things go.
When I did sexual assault support work, we let victims know that it's OK to protect yourself from harm as much as you can, even if that means not fighting your attacker, and waiting for a safer opportunity to address the assault.
I should say that yes, the brave thing is if someone says, "have you ever shadowed a female physician" or something inappropriate might be to ask the relevance of the question, as a way of gently reminding someone they may be stepping into something they shouldn't. Or reporting that question later to someone who might handle it. It's very unfortunate to "let" these things "go" for fear of reprisal, but protect yourself first, then when the moment is right "strike" appropriately to address sexism or whatever social injustice. It's true speaking up is important "for the cause," but you also have to live to fight another day sometimes.
There's sexist stuff that comes up that I feel resentful I'm putting up with for the politics of the workplace, "so taking it lying down" I try to conduct myself with dignity in the moment, until I'm in a better place to address these things. Then I'd like to do more from that angle is be more direct with instructing people in the sorts of things that are said that are not appropriate. Evaluations, HR. Standing up and changing the culture.
That's the part where "I reach for the knife" and "get someone." I wouldn't correct my senior, but when I hear the med student say inappropriate things about patients I am in a position to gently but firmly let them know it's inappropriate. If I have more concerns, I might raise those further.
I have confidentially reported colleagues above me to authorities in the structure about egregious things. They were told it was inappropriate. It's just exchanges of words to correct behavior, and people shouldn't be shielded from being corrected just because they'll be butthurt. That said, I do consider retaliatory behavior before opening my mouth, try to be direct if safe, and try to be confidential otherwise.
(My phone doesn't let me delete smileys quoted in others people's posts.)
Feeling uncomfortable is fine. It's the implications of "illegal" that reflect immaturity.
Fair enough bout legalities and whatnot. Just saying that aside from burning bridges and hurting your career, it's fine to call people out on this stuff.
Aside from relatialtion, there is no reason for the OP not to let the school know the facts of what occurred during the interview and how they may have felt uncomfortable. The school can then address this as they see fit. Why not make them aware and open dialogue? I think it's immature to tell someone addressing sexism would be immature, if the way they did it was mature.
I don't know legal vs illegal all that well (I'm a doctor not a lawyer) but no harm in asking if interview questions follow the rules and if not what to do to address them if they don't
Want to hear some tough, gender specific questions? Sit in when my favorite MFM quizzes prospective male fellowship applicants.
This thread is a useful reminder for me. I work with senior trainees near the end of their medical training and that crucible seems to have some positive effects.
Also, completely lost in this discussion is that she was talking to a research scientist not a physician.
Research scientist, gender or whatnot, aside from concern for OP, there is no reason not to give this person feedback that these questions referring to gender made an interviewer feel uncomfortable and if any change in behavior is advised.
I hate the sexism directed at males in ob/gyn. For the record, myself, I stand up for them and point out the potential advantages of having one to patients. I have some gender preferences for physicians for my own care (prefer male ob/gyns) but that being said, if I am seeing someone not of my preference in gender, never an issue to me unless I start to feel it's negatively impacting my care. No feeling on any other quality of a physician caring for me.
I mention this because the more we talk about acceptance the more we can create a culture of acceptance. Let's accept and encourage our male obgyns.
OP, did it ever occur to you that the interviewer was being nice to you by asking that question? That it wasn't a trick question, but rather, as a woman, she was trying to give you good advice about the sorts of situations that you might encounter? That's my impression of that question. I think it's quite common for interviewers to offer advice to applicants during interviews. Sometimes when they say, " Have you considered doing this..." they aren't asking a challenging question, they are offering a suggestion.
My point is that you should learn to be nice and give people the benefit of the doubt. Most of these "suspect" questions are legal, and even if they are not legal, more often than not are well-intentioned. As others have pointed out, if you are this sensitive, you will have a hard life. Yes, women have it worse than men, but given that about half the admitted students are women, and given that your interviewer was a woman, I don't think you have much of a case. I think that the problem here is you.
It seems to me that as a society we have gone from bad to worse, from political correctness to microagressions.
A bit off topic: Sometimes interviewers do ask an illegal question about your plans for children. While I know better than to say anything that's gender-specific in an interview, I wish I could tell every female applicant that I meet or interview to keep their eye on the clock, and not to assume that IVF will help get them pregnant when they finally finish their fellowship at 38 and get their practice running and are ready at 42 to get pregnant ( IVF success with own eggs less than 1% at that point. Fertility starts to plummet at 35. Ideally, women should start trying to get pregnant no later than 30, but I welcome input from an ob/gyn who knows better). That caveat applies to the men also. My office has about 15 doctors in it, and at least 4 of them or their spouses used infertility treatments, not always successfully. That's just the ones I know about. So keep that in mind, if someone were to ask you if you want to have kids in the future, most likely they want to help you, not hurt you. Again, half of admitted students are women. Do you really think that they all had to sign celibacy pledges at their interviews?
I had some family planning questions come up. I played nice, but when I feel safe the parties involved will be reported for this. I don't have to feel bad. I'm not trying to "get back" at those people, but those questions are uncomfortable. While I can say, "hey med school/residency, no worries, not only am I putting off family till after all the training, even if I had an unexpected pregnancy I'd abort it. Yes, that's how committed to the program I am, say the word, and that fetus is toast." (I'm being facetious and hyperbolic here) I resent that these questions are asked and that other candidates are dealing with questions against the rules putting them in an awkward spot. So when that kind of stuff happens, soon as I can do so safely I'm going to let someone know so they can address it.
For me to let the institution know this is taking place, I give them a chance to straighten up amd CYA before someone less agreeable sues them or makes other problems than just expressing displeasure.
Thank you for the information on human breeding BTW.
And the interview isn't the place for advice giving about that stuff.
The institution should see to it questions meant to test interviewees do so appropriately as one wonderful article a poster added here. Same with questions regarding adversity/diversity.
OP made it clear the tone of the interviewer wasn't nice.
But yeah, I've had some nasty interviewers and patients, my job is to charm 'em and inspire respect that. I can handle a challenge.
The "extra burden" is not placed on them by the medical school. It is placed on them by society. It would be silly and stupid to ask white male patients how they are going to respond to prejudice if they run into to it on the job.
Don't agree. I see plenty of my nice white male colleagues suffer from prejudice.
This extra burden on women is not just from society. The field of medicine is not family friendly in general, and a lot of that is culture.
A peds program with lots of lovely ladies with families, I see them cover for each other all the time no hard feelings. Other specialty programs with lots of young singles, a little less forgiving when the intern needs to sign the pager out to the senior a bit early to pick a kid up.
Let's not pretend it's roses in medicine and say the big bad is just society.
U see the fire in HER ....
Thank you. One of my favorite characters on the show.
You must be a delight to work with...
She is expressing righteous indignation over living in an oppressive environment... I think. I found her post a bit all over the place. But if she's upset about sexism she has experienced, then her anger is understandable.
Thank you.
I wasn't too organized, but I wanted to give an example of how I might respond to some of the situations Gastropathy mentioned.
Wow, I didn't expect this thread to receive as many responses as it did. Let try my best to clarify a few points.
First off, I shouldn't have used the phrase "illegal". I did not intend for it to be taken in a literal sense but after a late night shift in the E.R., I found myself lacking a better choice of words. Perhaps a better term would be "inappropriate" to bring up gender during interviews.
The question that the interviewer asked was not, to the best of my knowledge, one with well intentions. She did not ask whether I would be prepared facing future job discrimination, but rather followed up with how I could see myself handling the job of a doctor with my other "responsibilities as a woman". Nevertheless, I answered both questions respectfully.
I apologize for the nature of my comment towards Gastrapathy. Although my primary intentions were not to insult, I now see how insensitive I was being. While I personally believe that such attitudes should not be propagated through generations, it was out of line to wish that he would not reproduce. After reading and understanding the following comments, I see how insulting this comment was and I apologize sincerely for this.
However, I stand firm on my belief that attitudes encouraging female submission and complacency are misguided and should not be reinforced in the field. The fact that this person is an attending physician or not has no bearing on my attitude towards the matter (in fact it frightens me more because of the degree of influence and power he has on others). However I have come to realize that I cannot change the opinions of others. This is something that I shall simply attempt to mitigate myself as a physician.
And to those questioning my professionalism and competency in the field, I thank you for all your concerns however, as previously mentioned, I have endured cases of sexism throughout most of my life and especially during clinical exposures. Even having graduated from a top tier university, I still endure it on a daily basis from relatives suggesting it would be better for me to work in a less intellectually demanding field. That being said, my personal beliefs on the matter and responses on the internet are in no ways reflective of how I carry myself out in public. If I was "thin skinned", if I had cried out or become overly sensitive every time someone has uttered a sexist remark, I doubt I would have made it this far in the application process -- as well as in life. This does not necessarily mean that I will take being told to just back down and simply accept the remarks as a given.
Mature post.
An innocuous interview question does NOT = harassment on any level.
It's that simple. That she wanted to report it? Makes me nauseous.
That it makes you nauseous makes me nauseated. Nauseous is an adjective.
Didn't sound that innocuous. Sounded mildly offensive.
Harrassment? No. But i think it deserves questioning and the interviewer educated on how to pose appropriate questions.
Why should female applicants have to seek out female physicians to shadow (as the interviewer's question implies)? The only examples I've seen here are pretty generic sexist comments/situations that are not at all unique to medicine. Am I obligated to seek out a Jewish doctor to shadow regardless of my specialty interests so that an interviewer can be satisfied that I'm prepared if I run into an anti-Semitic patient or coworker?
Good point.
No, because you religion won't necessarily be apparent to others as a physician, or at an interview. And the question here wasn't about dealing with insults, it was about dealing with lifestyle.
So, for example, if an applicant were Orthodox, it would be reasonable ( although perhaps illegal) for an interviewer to ask if the applicant had discussed the compromises or restrictions that they might be subject to as a student, resident, and attending with an Orthodox physician. Legality aside for the moment, the response that "I discussed this with mentors, and they manage just fine" or "my religion will allow me to work as a physician on the Sabbath to safeguard the health of others " would be a satisfactory response. The answer, "gee, I never thought about that" would not.
Being Jewish is not considered just a religious issue, BTW. Would be good to keep in mind many people consider it a race and ethnicity. And that is medically relevant as Jewish heritage is one thing that is addressed in genetic counseling. Much the way that I might take other races and ethnicities into account in medical assessment.
No one should HAVE to, but don't you think it's good idea for all pre-meds to shadow both male and female doctors? This is partially the original interviewer's thrust....that female doctors may have a different way of doing Medicine than males. Whether you like it or not, there are difference in the genders.
Oh, fer cryin' out loud, Ax, how simple do I have to make this? I don't give a rat's ass about what people were thinking and justifying about in 1965, I'm talking about actions, NOW. There's a difference between oppression and demeaning, and being demeaning and not having enough sense to figure out what a questioner is asking.
But to reiterate, and pay attention: there's a difference between "how would you react in this difficult professional situation?" and "hey baby, nice booty!" The former is professionalism, the latter is lawsuit when coming from a co-worker.
The former was not how the OP said the question was presented.
Gastropathy's questions were almost better presented than what the interviewer supposedly said.
I think it's enough for a pre-med to explore the field with any gender. Good to consider how medicine is going to fit with workl life balance and breeding. I only shadowed a male doc.
Life and med school was enough to teach me about being a woman, and how that affects my practice. Part of my medical education was watching plenty of men AND women practice.
