IM programs in Los Angeles

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shortcoat81

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Hi All

I left Los Angeles for med school but want to return for residency. I'm considering Kaiser, Cedars, and USC . What are your thoughts on these programs? I think I have stats to get interviews at these programs, but wanted an insider look at these places. Don't know about fellowship yet, but considering Heme/Onc vs hospitalist.

Anybody who is at these programs or interviewed last year?

Thanks!

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I also would like some more info on these places. How good is the fellowship potential out of these 3? How competitive are they?
 
I can't speak for the other places but I just finished up my IM residency at Cedars last year. When I interviewed as a med student, they told me all about how easy it was to get fellowship and threw around great percentages. What they don't tell you is that they talk a lot of people out of applying. This artificially inflates their data. When I was in my second year, I had a meeting with the PD and my mentor where they basically told me I should just stay in general medicine. I thought that this was kinda bs as I went there because I wanted to do Cards. I am now actually working as a hospitalist and making pretty good money for the amount of work. In the end I am happy and I feel like my training was good but I do feel a little ripped off. If i had to do it again, I would probably have taken a closer look.
 
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Can anyone comment if this is true? This guy has only 3 posts so I would like another opinion if possible.


If this guy REALLY did go to Cedars for residency, why is his post not as valid just because he only has 3 posts?:scared:
 
This is my first post. So use that knowledge however you like.

I'm a current R3 at Cedars. I can honestly tell you that the training here is pretty good. But it is what it is and people who don't see it for what it is shouldn't come here. They won't be happy. It's a cush program. That's why I came here. That's why all my buddies came here. Is it UCLA? Is it UCSD? Is it USC? Certainly not, those are all top flight academic institutions. This is a community hospital. But you can get good training here.

If you want to be a general medicine outpatient doc (like I do) or a hospitalist this can be the place for you. If you want to do fellowship or be an academic physician go to one of those programs. We tell people that we have a good fellowship match (90-100%) but really our advisors talk people out of applying so take that number for what it's worth.

When was the last time you had a great outside speaker and they trained at a community hospital, much less a place without a medical school? All I'm saying is be honest with yourself. University based programs have their pros and cons. Community based programs have their pros and cons. All this "we're a communi-versity program" that people sell is ridiculous. Each type of program has it's place accept that and make a decision.

It's like a hot woman. You don't need a lot of other explanation to know you want to date her. When you're at a community program and they need to explain why they're good at fellowship or training, you know something is up. University programs are those hot girls in the bar. Community programs are the easy girls in the bar. The world needs both. But hot girls are never easy. And easy girls wouldn't be easy if they were hot.
 
This is my first post. So use that knowledge however you like.

I'm a current R3 at Cedars. I can honestly tell you that the training here is pretty good. But it is what it is and people who don't see it for what it is shouldn't come here. They won't be happy. It's a cush program. That's why I came here. That's why all my buddies came here. Is it UCLA? Is it UCSD? Is it USC? Certainly not, those are all top flight academic institutions. This is a community hospital. But you can get good training here.

If you want to be a general medicine outpatient doc (like I do) or a hospitalist this can be the place for you. If you want to do fellowship or be an academic physician go to one of those programs. We tell people that we have a good fellowship match (90-100%) but really our advisors talk people out of applying so take that number for what it's worth.

When was the last time you had a great outside speaker and they trained at a community hospital, much less a place without a medical school? All I'm saying is be honest with yourself. University based programs have their pros and cons. Community based programs have their pros and cons. All this "we're a communi-versity program" that people sell is ridiculous. Each type of program has it's place accept that and make a decision.

It's like a hot woman. You don't need a lot of other explanation to know you want to date her. When you're at a community program and they need to explain why they're good at fellowship or training, you know something is up. University programs are those hot girls in the bar. Community programs are the easy girls in the bar. The world needs both. But hot girls are never easy. And easy girls wouldn't be easy if they were hot.

fantastic information. appreciate it.
 
This is my first post. So use that knowledge however you like.

I'm a current R3 at Cedars. I can honestly tell you that the training here is pretty good. But it is what it is and people who don't see it for what it is shouldn't come here. They won't be happy. It's a cush program. That's why I came here. That's why all my buddies came here. Is it UCLA? Is it UCSD? Is it USC? Certainly not, those are all top flight academic institutions. This is a community hospital. But you can get good training here.

If you want to be a general medicine outpatient doc (like I do) or a hospitalist this can be the place for you. If you want to do fellowship or be an academic physician go to one of those programs. We tell people that we have a good fellowship match (90-100%) but really our advisors talk people out of applying so take that number for what it's worth.

When was the last time you had a great outside speaker and they trained at a community hospital, much less a place without a medical school? All I'm saying is be honest with yourself. University based programs have their pros and cons. Community based programs have their pros and cons. All this "we're a communi-versity program" that people sell is ridiculous. Each type of program has it's place accept that and make a decision.

It's like a hot woman. You don't need a lot of other explanation to know you want to date her. When you're at a community program and they need to explain why they're good at fellowship or training, you know something is up. University programs are those hot girls in the bar. Community programs are the easy girls in the bar. The world needs both. But hot girls are never easy. And easy girls wouldn't be easy if they were hot.
😱 Can you elaborate on that? Do they try to talk EVERYONE out of applying? Does that depend on how well you did during residency, your inservice scores, research?
 
Of course they don't talk everyone out of it. Some people get into fellowship. The problem is that there is no real assistance to help you get the fellowship.

For example a friend of mine wants Heme Onc. Well he wasn't able to find any heme or Onc research to participate in. There was no one to help him find a project and this isn't a university so we aren't exactly spilling over with research projects. So at the end of the day when it was time to apply our advisors told him his application wouldn't be compatible with success.

But like I said before this place is what it is. It's not a major research center. It's a nice community hospital with nice people. It's a cushy place. If you want fellowship the better bet is from UCLA or USC. I wanted gen med so why work so hard.
 
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Of course they don't talk everyone out of it. Some people get into fellowship. The problem is that there is no real assistance to help you get the fellowship.

For example a friend of mine wants Heme Onc. Well he wasn't able to find any heme or Onc research to participate in. There was no one to help him find a project and this isn't a university so we aren't exactly spilling over with research projects. So at the end of the day when it was time to apply our advisors told him his application wouldn't be compatible with success.

But like I said before this place is what it is. It's not a major research center. It's a nice community hospital with nice people. It's a cushy place. If you want fellowship the better bet is from UCLA or USC. I wanted gen med so why work so hard.

I am just stating the facts from cedars sinai website. Of the IM batch of 2011, 16 out of 41 IM graduates (25%) secured fellowship in cards or GI. Four graduates matched in heme-onc. Thus, almost half of the batch got in to cards, GI or heme-onc. I think that's a pretty good match rate. Of course, I dont know the denominator (i.e. no. of applicants).
 
Can you elaborate on what might be obvious to many... What does cush mean? I hear it all the time. The number of hours worked? The amount of pimping from attendings? The level of responsibility?

Do you feel like if it had been less cush, you would be better trained? Or are those two different somehow.
 
I'm a current Cedars R3. I just want to chime in since my experience has been somewhat different than what's been described by one of the posters. Yes, in general, Cedars can be cush. Cushness vs. rigor I think generally is a function of # of call months x frequency of call x intensity of call. I think intensity of Cedars wards is most of what makes Cedars "cush." As a 2 resident, 3 intern, + 1-2 med student team, you might commonly get 12-15 admissions q4days, maybe capping at 20 1-2 call cycles out of 7, and there is generally good discharge flow. Not the typical capping per call at county programs. But during the VA wards, you get your volume: essentially capping q4days at 10 admissions per resident + 2-4 more admissions on q4d short call with slower turnover. ICUs are typical intensity. Does "cushness" translate to better/worse training? As long as there is some exposure to volume to increase efficiency, having this extra time in a lighter ward month allows residents to read more and do more research if they want to, even as an intern, and a lot of people going into competitive fellowships do just that. Or you can waste time. If you tend to waste free time, maybe a program that forces you maximum volume will be better.

Re academic/community hybrid: Not sure what makes a program academic. this is a program that attracts more clinically minded residents. Nevertheless, we are expected to teach medical students and co-residents. We are expected to hold didactic sessions, including a senior grand rounds. There are many didactic sessions, more clinically oriented, held by faculty. And there are tons and tons of research with TIME to help with them. Graduates tend to do private practice > clinician educator >>> clinical/translational research PI with an RO1 grant/health services researcher -- not sure if this is very different compared to most "academic" programs. Having said that, there are "community" type of programs that may do a better job at teaching vs. Cedars...Olive View and Scripps Mercy come to mind.

Re mentorship: It's a big program so it can be easy to hide in the crowd and get lost. There's no formal mentorship program for specialties you're interested in. But it's kinda like going to a large good public school: if you have initiative and are motivated, there are tons of great mentors at Cedars and at the VA to do a lot of things. There are plenty of seniors or recent graduates/fellows to ask for advice. GI, cards, endo, rheum divisions, research, and mentorship are exceptionally strong here. There are also plenty of mentorship opportunities for renal and pulm. I've heard people having a harder time finding Heme-onc mentorship, but there are well known VA mentors, and UCLA is definitely accessible (we are UCLA affiliated and teaching attendings have UCLA appointments, similar to Harbor, Olive View, and Kaiser-UCLA). It just takes more initiative/motivation. Probably the weakest mentorship of the conventional fellowships is Allergy. Having said that, people find mentors and match very well. I personally haven't heard of anyone discouraged from pursuing a fellowship--i've heard of people being suggested that they might need more investment in research to improve chances (for cards, specifically, for someone without much if any research done). But if a Cedars resident is advised not to attempt to apply for fellowship, its not for a lack of availability of mentors.

In all its a good program with very nice people and lots of available research to prepare you for a competitive fellowship. But you do have to be motivated enough to use those extra hours for research. Some places like Stanford, UCLA or UCSF may have enough brand name to land you a competitive fellowship spot without as much extra work, but I'd imagine that would still be a risky move. With regards to comparing Cedars with USC, I think you'll have a better chance matching for competitive fellowships coming from Cedars.
 
Interviewed at all 3 last cycle. For fellowship purposes (especially cards and GI), I'd rank them Cedars > USC = Kaiser. Kaiser has their own fellowships and likes to take their own. USC has a ton of residents so it can be difficult to stand out. Cedars' pros and cons are accurately mentioned above.

But if you really want to set yourself up well, your best bet in california will be UCSF, Stanford, UCLA, and UCSD.
 
I just got done with an away rotation at Kaiser Los Angeles not too long ago.

1. Collectively, Kaiser Los Angeles seems to have the greatest % of happy down-to-earth residents I've seen anywhere. It wasn't that the workload was "cush." It was more that everyone was decent to each other. The R3s were patient and kind to the interns, the attendings were patient and nice to the residents and medical students... The nurses are mostly filipina and tend to be cliquey with each other (often talking about patients and medical matters in tagalog so physicians and others can't understand), which makes physician-nurse cooperation a tiny bit more tricky, but it works out alright.

2. Their EMR (a customized version of EPIC they put $3 billion into several years ago) is absolutely, positively off the hinges. If you find a better EMR, please, let me know about it.

3. They round a little bit later than most places which makes much more sense to me, since a) you have all the morning labs in by that time, b) residents and medical students get a little more time to assess patients ahead of rounds and most importantly c) it means we can let the patient's get a little bit of sleep (I know, god forbid we allow our patients to sleep). ... although, admittedly, to me the whole idea of rounding as we classically know it does not seem to fit the 21st century medical infrastructure and should probably be scrapped altogether

Anyhow, I had a fantastic time there. Just looks like a nice place to be a resident.
 
I just got done with an away rotation at Kaiser Los Angeles not too long ago.

1. Collectively, Kaiser Los Angeles seems to have the greatest % of happy down-to-earth residents I've seen anywhere. It wasn't that the workload was "cush." It was more that everyone was decent to each other. The R3s were patient and kind to the interns, the attendings were patient and nice to the residents and medical students... The nurses are mostly filipina and tend to be cliquey with each other (often talking about patients and medical matters in tagalog so physicians and others can't understand), which makes physician-nurse cooperation a tiny bit more tricky, but it works out alright.

2. Their EMR (a customized version of EPIC they put $3 billion into several years ago) is absolutely, positively off the hinges. If you find a better EMR, please, let me know about it.

3. They round a little bit later than most places which makes much more sense to me, since a) you have all the morning labs in by that time, b) residents and medical students get a little more time to assess patients ahead of rounds and most importantly c) it means we can let the patient's get a little bit of sleep (I know, god forbid we allow our patients to sleep). ... although, admittedly, to me the whole idea of rounding as we classically know it does not seem to fit the 21st century medical infrastructure and should probably be scrapped altogether

Anyhow, I had a fantastic time there. Just looks like a nice place to be a resident.
can you name one hospital where nurses are NOT mostly Philipino? :laugh:
 
Does anyone know anything about USC, or have experience with their program? I assumed it was a large academic program with a good reputation but I never hear anyone talking about it.
 
I'm a current R2 at Cedars and just want to add my 2 cents. I agree with all of "beebs" comments above. I've learned a lot during my 1+ years here and I've really enjoyed my time in LA as well. I would never badmouth any of the programs in LA because they all attract a unique collection of residents who are looking for different things. If you go ask some of the residents at UCLA, they'll surely say "yes we're the #1 ranked place in LA", but at the same time, we have co-residents who ranked Cedars even above UCLA and Stanford.

Look beyond the name and ask yourself what is your personal plan for the future? Even if you say "research and academics is my life goal", think about what specialty you plan on going into. And to re-iterate things a bit, I've never heard of people being discouraged from applying. And I'm imagine that'd only happen if the PDs think that you need to beef up the resume a bit to have a good shot... Briefly about the specialties...

GI is huge here, we have a top notch IBD research center at Cedars and Dr. Spiegel is the go-to guy everyone bend over backwards to work for at the VA. But UCLA is also super good.

Ever since we've acquired the heart transplant group from UCLA, Cedars is the place to be for Cards, especially if you want to work under the names of Dr. Kobashigawa. There are also great interventionalists who are working on TAVI research etc.

I'll admit that our Heme/Onc experience is limited at Cedars, especially the solid onc category. Choose UCLA if that's what tickles your fancy. But if you like leukemia/lymphoma, we have a solid BM transplant program.

I myself is planning for pulm/crit. UCLA is definitely more research heavy vs Cedars is more clinical. But our new chief of medicine Dr. Noble, who will be joining the faculty next year from Duke, is a renowned researcher in ILD.

Others such as ID/Rheum/Endo/Renal etc are generally easier to get into, so I think your exact program matters less. As long as you do well in residency, you'll be fine. So pick the one that you think you'll be more HAPPY at.
 
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