IMG with multiple red flags deciding on rotations --- realistically what are my chances to match?

Discussion in 'Step I' started by HelpMeFailedStep1, Dec 23, 2017.

  1. HelpMeFailedStep1

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    #1 HelpMeFailedStep1, Dec 23, 2017
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  3. sb247

    sb247 Doer of things

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    I can’t at all imagine a scenario in which you get a US residency, I’m really sorry
     
  4. hobbes23

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    I think you are showing good insight. This may not be your path, but there are many other paths in life.

    LOAs? were you able to address what was going on?
     
  5. W19

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    I think you should cut your losses. Try to become a NP... You can become a NP in less than 4 years.
     
  6. Surgeria

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    close your loans and just switch to europe, some "good europe" like netherlands. what is the idea to stay in USA and can't be what you want to be there? Just because you have been born there? - bu........t. chase your dream to become a doctor, get out of the box, don't listen to people. I will be switching countries until I will find a place where they need me. Yes you failed numerous times, but you have a dream to help people that has lost heir hopes, this costs a lot. Find a place where they need you. There is numerous countries in the world.
     
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  7. HelpMeFailedStep1

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    #6 HelpMeFailedStep1, Dec 25, 2017
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  8. HelpMeFailedStep1

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    Contacted schools from Europe, even with may passing Step 1 score i would have to take the majority of M1 and M2 in addition to a thorough review of my application which im sure wont go smoothyl
     
  9. HelpMeFailedStep1

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    #8 HelpMeFailedStep1, Dec 25, 2017
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  10. Surgeria

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    well, what schools have you contacted what countries? There is a great thing in Europe. When you get a licence say in Germany (where most of the graduates from other countries go, or in England which is bad shoot because of many obstacles) anyways, German licence is working in at least Germany, Austria, Switzerland (which is better place to live and practice then USA). What you need is a MD diploma + German skills nothing else, they are in doctor need. I don't know which schools have you contacted but that is what I know. Europe is a great plan B if your love for USA is not higher than love and passion to become a physician. Good luck! People who search, they always find a way.
     
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  11. hobbes23

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    Well, what are you interested in? I never said anything about an office job.

    If you like medicine, what about public health? like epidemiology. Lots of MPH level opportunities. two year degree.
     
  12. HelpMeFailedStep1

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    #11 HelpMeFailedStep1, Dec 26, 2017
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  13. Instatewaiter

    Instatewaiter But... there's a troponin

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    I think before you throw in the towel, it would be important to know a few bits of information
    - how much debt do you have from undergrad, 1st MD and now carribean MD
    - If you declare bankrupcy, does the debt disappear.
    - how much will it cost each clinical year.

    Realistically you will have difficulty matching but if you are personable, do 4th year away/audition rotations at places that are lower tier and apply to FM/IM/Psych and Neuro, I bet you will match. I suspect the volume of debt you have is crushing and the only way you will be able to pay it off is if you truly become a doctor.
     
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  14. HelpMeFailedStep1

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    #13 HelpMeFailedStep1, Dec 28, 2017
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  15. Instatewaiter

    Instatewaiter But... there's a troponin

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    You are right the average stats for IM are much stronger than yours. That said, yhere is a lot of variability in IM ranging from more competitive than many ortho programs to not very competitive at all. You might have a shot. But, you are right that FM and psych programs are probably going to be better options.

    Re your loans: Many Carribean students must get loans which are private and can be forgiven in Bankrupcy. If, however yours are not these... that sucks. Obviously undergrad and first med school since these were mainland and likely normal fannie/freddy loans are not forgivable.

    Lets for a moment assume you have $400K in debt. How are you possibly going to pay this off without becoming a doctor? That is a few thousand bucks a month. Perhaps it would be worth it to continue forward.

    Now that said, if you aren't going to be invested in the journey your likelihood of matching goes down significantly and the other 200K isn't worth the risk. However there are people who are very poor test takers who are just fine clinically and do well on their clincal rotations. If this happens to be you and you make a good impression, you will match, especially if you do well on an audition rotation. Much of this will depend on social interactions. Honestly these kind of things are hard to gauge over the internet without having met you and knowing how personable you are. This is a decision you are going to have to make on your own.
     
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  17. aProgDirector

    aProgDirector Pastafarians Unite!
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    Unfortunately, I think your future in US medicine is not looking good.

    The main issue here is this: To have any chance, you'd need to show a track record of improvement. So, you'd need to go great work on your clinical rotations (which, because they are wildly different from book learning, you might be fine), but then you've got to do at least OK on CK. Although "crushing" it would be great, you need to at least do decently on it. Not sure if your school uses the shelf exams, but you'd need to do OK on those also.

    Then, you apply for FM. Don't screw around with IM, that's a bad plan. There are many more FM spots, and they are less competitive.

    Overall, the chance of failure here is very high. I can't tell you whether it's worth continuing. But your long schooling, multiple LOA's, failed S1 are all going to be big problems.

    If you stop, all is not lost. You will need to find another career, and I have no idea what that would be. I can't tell you whether you'd be happy as an RN. There's no guarantee you'd get a DNP, so you should only go down the RN route if you could be happy being an RN. Perhaps you could be happy outside of medicine.

    Your loans are your loans. Stop now, and everything should either be dischargeable in bankruptcy OR qualify for PSLF / forgiveness. Enter an income based repayment plan so that the payments are not obscene. If you find work with a 503c, your whole loan balance is forgiven after 10 years. If not, you need to slug it out for 25 years (I think) but loan payments are capped by the repayment systems. Won't be fun, but can be done.

    I have no idea what your chances in medicine in another country are, but without citizenship I expect they are poor. Going to another country does let you walk away from your debt (most likely).

    Personally, my advice is to stop now. I think you've dug yourself into a deep hole. It might be possible to climb out, but everything has to go perfectly going forward and that seems (unfortunately) unlikely. I am very worried you will end up failing S2.
     
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  18. HelpMeFailedStep1

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    I am not sure if i want to go thru the DNP route, not because it takes min 5-6 years to finish, but I have been accepted into a program 1 + 4 DNP but again I am not sure if that is the best option for me at this point.

    I have considered other fields in medicine but a chance at matching seem slim without like you said a perfect track record including passing Step 2 CK while doing rotations and passing the shelf exams.

    Thanks for your reply i appreciate it!
     
  19. psychMDhopefully

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    Honestly he could become a NP in 3 years, 1 year accelerated RN, 2 years NP school. The fact that you have done all this without throwing in the towel is impressive, but the only way I see you getting a residency is a miracle.

    Also there are more IM spots than there are FM spots, thee are probably more FM spots than IM spots that OP is in any way competitive for.
     
    #17 psychMDhopefully, Jan 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  20. W19

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    I don't think OP does look into NP since he thinks that he needs to work as a RN first in order to get into NP school--which is not the case. His best choice now is NP... His chances of getting into IM/FM is virtually nonexistent.
     
  21. HelpMeFailedStep1

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    #19 HelpMeFailedStep1, Jan 6, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  22. W19

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    @HelpMeFailedStep1

    NP =/= DNP

    I was (or am) a RN, so I know what I am talking about...
     
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  23. HelpMeFailedStep1

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    Well in the states I am looking to live in they prefer DNP over NPs, i dont know why that is but that is what all the nursing schools in the states i have contacted stated. In fact many of these schools do not even offer an option to become an NP its DNP or nothing.

    So you could be right, maybe I can become a NP and work in a different state i am just going by what program directors and those working in the field are telling me.

    Did not mean to sound crass or come off as rude

    Thanks for your response!
     
  24. W19

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    I live in FL and there is no preference...

    You can do it at a state school, but you don't have to. State schools might require you to work at least a year as a RN... For instance, Florida Atlantic University (FAU) has a 1-year BSN program and 2 year NP. Yes, they might require you to work one year as a RN before letting you into their NP program. In that case, it will take you 4 years to become a NP. Or you can the the 1-year BSN and then the 2-year NP at online school or South University (i.e. 3 years to become a NP).
     
    #22 W19, Jan 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  25. SterlingMaloryArcher

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  26. HelpMeFailedStep1

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    Thank you for your sympathy but I am not dead yet
     
  27. HelpMeFailedStep1

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    I will definitely be looking into this more, once again i appreciate your advice esp in the face of my somewhat hostile message earlier. Thank you
     
  28. Spodermin

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    Nurse is a nurse. Whatever the credentials.

    Thing is OP, high scores predict more high scores. So keep that in mind when thinking about step 2 (its no piece of cake). You have one of three options now:

    1) Continue. It'll be difficult, and will increase your debt. Chances of matching are poor even if you make connections and possibly do 1 or more years of research with someone you've established a connection with. Don't listen to this
    Bad advice. Really bad.

    2) Transfer. To England, Germany, China, Turkey...doesn't really matter. I don't know what will happen to your debt. I doubt they'll get interpol to go after you, but you can kiss coming back to the US goodbye. So start thinking about where you want to live, what you need to get in (even if it means starting from M1) and come up with a realistic plan (keep in mind your academic record when doing all of this, so don't have very high expectations)

    3) Abandon ship. Forget medicine. Maybe you're not cut out to do medicine. I don't know you personally, but if it was me in your shoes, I wouldn't be able to handle being a nurse after coming so close to becoming an MD. I think all the miserable nurses who think they're doctors have gone through something similar to what you went through, and it turned them bitter. If you think you can avoid being miserable for the rest of your life with nurse route then go for it.

    If none of these options appeal to you, take some time off, clear your head, figure out what you want in life, then go for that.
    (keep in mind if you decide to come back to medicine that this would be extra time off)
     
  29. Instatewaiter

    Instatewaiter But... there's a troponin

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    Says the third year medical student who has never been through a match to the attending cardiologist who has been successfully through 3... hmmm

    This guy is probably hosed but from risk vs success maximization, I think giving up isn't a great option.
     
    #27 Instatewaiter, Jan 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  30. SterlingMaloryArcher

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    Intrigued by this
     
  31. Surgeria

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    People do match with failed step 1, and even after failing getting just 200 or +-, and those people are IMG's needing visas. But keep in mind that those people have no dept so they have nothing to loose other than usmle fee's and some traveling/interview costs. Yes people do that, but what is the guarantee? What will happen if you will become a medical student in Europe? In Romania there are medical schools with a fee of 3000$ per year, and it is a EU med school and it's diploma will be verified in any EU country. So what will happen if you tomorrow will start Med school in Romania? What will happen to your dept? Holding a Romanian MD will open the doors to any EU country residency if you will learn that EU language. The only prerequisite in EU residency is diploma verification + language barrier, this is the biggest challange. For example being a doctor in Austria, or Germany, or Switzerland, at some point you will cover your dept in USA. You can go for even more crazy things like, go to EU and graduate from school there, finish a residency there (3-4 years) and then switch to US back and get into some FM residency rural one + a fellowship like an ob and live a good life. It will take many years, probably 12 years from now but people work until there 70's so there is much time left. There is million ways of how you can do things, the only question is HOW MUCH YOU WANT IT?
     
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  32. DocJanItor

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    I'm going to throw my hat into the ring with a caveat: I'm a mid 30s M1 with quite a few years in finance.

    Here's my assessment of your situation: you have spent a MASSIVE amount of money to get half way through med school in 9 years which cannot be discharged. You have at least 2 years of school to go after which you have to take another Step exam. Even assuming you do magnificently, your chances of matching based upon your history are very, very slim. But based upon your history, I'm not sure you should assume you could do extremely well or pass Step 2 the first time. I'm not making a judgement on you, I'm just basing this on your history.

    Here's the rub: the only chance you have of servicing and eliminating this debt is with a doctor's salary. Even a $100-$120k/yr job is not going to eliminate what is surely >$500k of debt @ close to 7% interest. Further education in the United States is just going to exacerbate this situation: you would absolutely bury yourself in debt with absolutely no way to get rid of it.

    Personally, I have no idea what your family situation is or how attached to the US you are, but I'd find another country where you can start a new life and your debt couldn't follow you. If you absolutely MUST practice medicine then I'd try to do it somewhere else. At least that way you won't be buried by debt the rest of your life, you can get a fresh start, and you already have a head start on your knowledge base (even though you'd have to start over in whatever you do).
     
  33. sb247

    sb247 Doer of things

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    Get a job in the public sector and use pslf to abandon the debt
     
  34. psychMDhopefully

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    Didn't they renege on that program?
     
  35. Phloston

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    You haven't taken Step 2 yet. If you do well on it you can match. I know IMGs who have failed the steps and ultimately passed with sub-200 scores who have matched. You're not alone.

    206 is not bad!! Despite the reattempt, it's a solid clear.

    I would ignore advice that puts you down or is nihilistic.

    What I can tell you is that whatever jobs, research, volunteering you have mean absolutely nothing compared to a good Step 2. Just work it. And do it.

    People go through challenges. As I said, you are far from being alone. If you really want it, you can make it happen. That's it.
     
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  36. greenleaves

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    This is patently bad advice. We shouldn't kid ourselves here. OP should have seen the writing on the wall, after his first Step 1 failure. If it's a challenge to pass it after that many years of basic sciences, I cannot imagine a scenario where Step 2 CK would be easy for him to clear. Unless OP has been diagnosed with a learning disability like ADHD, there is not going to be a magic cure for bad test taking. We should not encourage OP deeper into debt, which is already I assume at worrying levels. Also a 206 after an attempt could be overlooked but not in light of his complete application. Don't give away money to the USMLE and your carib school. If you're still attracted to Medicine, you need to demonstrate your aptitude for it. Since you already have a 4 year degree from the US, it may facilitate your entry into a Nursing program but again this won't be easy. There is the NCLEX to contend with. I am mainly worried about your test taking ability and the multiple LOA, are there extenuating circumstances? Have you considered meeting a counselor about test taking skills? I wish I could be more supportive but you need to open yourself to the possibility that you may have to develop your aptitude for math or taking the GRE. In a perfect world we would all do what we love, but in reality sometimes a job has to be a means to an end.
     
  37. sb247

    sb247 Doer of things

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    if it goes and stays gone, you do the 20yr repayments with the same deal
     
  38. Phloston

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    OP's 206 is solid. Once again, I know people who have failed the Steps and have matched. Why discourage the OP? If the OP wants medicine, he by all means should go chips all in.

    Your post actually comes off very condescending toward the OP. Then you essentially tell him to go down the nursing and counselling route and insult his intelligence. Yes, we get it, not everyone is as amazing as you are.

    OP, it's actually this type of discouragement you need to ignore.
     
  39. greenleaves

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    Phloston I'm not amazing or looking down at the OP. Indeed, I see myself in his writings, which is why I find it hard to believe he has true insight to his situation. My own preconceived notions lead me to believe OP has made up his mind regardless of the advice given here. If you have time read his posts from the very first Step failure, this is obvious. I explicitly stated that nursing is not easy by any means and the NCLEX is a huge roadblock in his way.
    "The Misconception: You make rational decisions based on the future value of objects, investments and experiences. The Truth: Your decisions are tainted by the emotional investments you accumulate, and the more you invest in something the harder it becomes to abandon it."
    I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence. But if someone truly believes they have 15 years of medical knowledge and are still unable to pass Step 1, I find that unpalatable.
    We can only do our best to advice and even if we differ on our opinions, my opinions don't come from a place of malice or pity. I hope OP finds success in life, whether as an MD or otherwise, that is up to him.
     
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  40. HelpMeFailedStep1

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    Nursing school is not easy by any means?

    NCLEX is a huge roadblock standing in my way?

    Thanks for your well wishes!
     

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