Immaculata or Marywood

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memiller

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Hello, I have been accepted into both of these programs and would love any input one may have to offer. If you attend or know anything, I would appreciate your feedback!!

Thank you

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Immaculata’s licensure and EPPP pass rates. Woof.
 
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I don't have any personal knowledge of either program. Looking at their websites, they're both expensive, but Marywood more so; however, Marywood also has smaller cohort sizes. Immaculata has its own captive internship, so their match numbers are better. But Marywood's other outcome statistics, particularly licensure rates, are much better (as Mama Bear mentioned above).
 
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Immaculata’s licensure and EPPP pass rates. Woof.
You weren't kidding.
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I don't have any personal knowledge of either program. Looking at their websites, they're both expensive, but Marywood more so; however, Marywood also has smaller cohort sizes. Immaculata has its own captive internship, so their match numbers are better. But Marywood's other outcome statistics, particularly licensure rates, are much better.
It's a great example of how captive internships game the match numbers to cover up deficiencies and flaws in the program.
 
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27 people in that one class failed the EPPP. My program doesn't have that many failures in the history of it's entire program.
And somehow it's only the third worst rate on that part of a page! However, when you factor in cohort sizes, of the 85 students across the nine programs shown who didn't pass the EPPP, one third of them were from Immaculata. That's a very big risk.

Dropout rate is pretty concerning too, with 19% of 2019 enrollees no longer attending and not graduated. When you look at the relatively lower rates of dropout from subsequent years, this could be evidence that students are leaving the program after several years (and several non-refundable tuition checks or loans). when 1/5 don't graduate, and 1/3 who graduate don't pass the EPPP or 1/4 don't get licensed, that's an uncomfortably high chance that enrolling her might not pay off. Now, most who enroll do graduate, and most who graduate do get licensed, but when you combine the .81 dropout rate and the .61 EPPP pass rate, of a typical cohort of 30 people who enroll in a given year, only about half will pass the the EPPP and get licensed within 10 years of starting. There is a 50% chance that your investment into your education here will not allow you to work and receive and income with 10 year of enrolling, an you may still have to pay that investment (with compound interest) for 20 years. That's a suckers bet.
 
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And somehow it's only the third worst rate on that part of a page! However, when you factor in cohort sizes, of the 85 students across the nine programs shown who didn't pass the EPPP, one third of them were from Immaculata. That's a very big risk.
As an aside, damn Drexel has bigger cohorts than I realized.
 
I would imagine you're very excited about being accepted to two programs so I really hate to say this even though it needs to be said, but it's probably not a good idea to attend either program. Assuming you're fortunate enough to get licensed soon after you graduate, you'll be in a ridiculous amount of debt and will have a difficult time paying that off given the salary of an average, general psychologist.
 
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I would imagine you're very excited about being accepted to two programs so I really hate to say this even though it needs to be said, but it's probably not a good idea to attend either program. Assuming you're fortunate enough to get licensed soon after you graduate, you'll be in a ridiculous amount of debt and will have a difficult time paying that off given the salary of an average, general psychologist.
I understand what you mean. But if you were to pick a program with the given stats, which would be the safer choice?
 
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It seems like Marywood is very CBT heavy
 
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Immaculata’s licensure and EPPP pass rates. Woof.
Wow, that licensure rate is especially shocking.

To the OP: more than 1 in 4 graduates from Immaculata do not get licensed.

There are legitimate reasons such as changes in personal circumstances (poor health, family/caregiving needs) or getting an academic or industry job that doesn't require a license.

But those should be the exceptions and not the rule. Of the 28% of recent grads who don't get licensed, one would have to assume that a large portion were able to graduate but couldn't get licensed, which speaks very poorly of the school.
 
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But those should be the exceptions and not the rule. Of the 28% of recent grads who don't get licensed, one would have to assume that a large portion were able to graduate but couldn't get licensed, which speaks very poorly of the school.
Especially in light of the larger cohort sizes and practitioner focus. That’s a larger n not getting licensed. I sometimes see similar licensure % at small-cohort PhD programs, but I consider that less concerning. More likely to go another professional route that doesn’t require licensure.
 
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I just want to make sure I make the best choice.
Marywood stats are better. Lower cohort size (though similar attrition rates of between 10-20%). 74% EPPP pass rate which does not really gel with the reported 95% licensure rate of grads from the last 2-10 year- suggesting that students need to take the EPPP several times to eventually pass. Better than Immaculata, but still associated with high opportunity costs in that it delays your ability to make a doctorate level income. Modal time to completion is 5 years, but a lot take six, so that's the number you should use for for future planning purposes. Costs about 35k per year, so total 5 year program tuition costs are 175k (may be more, as it takes many 6 years, but I'm guessing sixth year is not as expensive). They also offer some partial tuition remission for first years, so factor that in. Assuming you have a BA and are employable, figure opportunity costs in terms of 5 years BA level salary of 100k (20K per year)- which assumes you will have some paid practicum and internship along the way. If you have to finance, say, half of the tuition with student loans at current ~7% interest, you'd be looking at monthly loan payments of ~$1000/ month for a 10 year repayment (total of 121k repaid) or ~$700/month for 20 years (total of 163K repaid). These numbers go up if you have undergrad loans, and they also assume you have access to $87,5000 to cover the other half of tuition, plus more to cover five+ years of living expenses).

Now let's say you are actually able to graduate, get licensure, and get a job. If that job were to pay you $100,000 a year (hint- it probably won't just out of grad school. We wouldn't pay you that coming from one of these schools when-if we really needed to- we could find a placeholder minimally incompetent psychologist from the local FSPS who would do the job for 75k because they are desperate to get some cash to pay their big loans and their share of the rent for their 1/6th of a crappy apartment in Somerville) after payroll taxes and medical/dental/vision deductions, you'd bring home a net of $5000 a month. That leaves 4k for rent/mortage (Hah! you kids will never be able to buy a house- my parents generation made sure of that!), car payments, phone, streaming services, utilities, that does not leave a lot of having fun money. You still would be living better than most people in this world, but not likely any better that those who got a clinical masters (with it's lower tuition and opportunity costs and potential for 60-80K+ salary if you play it right) or those who maximize their bachelors degree. If you pick that 20 year repayment plan, you might find that sometime during your loan repayment you have kid or two who want to go to a good university or small liberal arts college. Today, that would cost you- out of pocket- 35K. You'd still be paying 12K a year for your college while having to pay for theirs (or perpetuate the cycle of being held hostage by large educational loan debt. You haven't even begun to contribute to retirement, which sucks because you probably won't have a pension and social security will be have died as the result of it being turned into some voucher-based ponzi scheme).

Obviously, the decision is yours. I know you want us to commit to one of these two options. Ok- Marywood is probably a better option. Just know what that actually means for the future, financially speaking. Also know that there are other options, such as clinical masters programs (e.g., MSWs or BCBAs) which are much less expense, get you working faster (often doing similar work to what a generalist psychologist from a not-so-good doctoral program (and programs such as these two- one of which has faculty who got their degree from Capella!- fall into that general category), and at similar early careers salaries as psychologist (though admittedly lower ceilings). You could also do something else (investing in yourself) to make it more likely that better options will be available in the future.

I try really hard not to be a hypocrite with this type of thing. My daughter was recently in a similar situation of having to decide on clinical grad school options. After doing all the math looking at different future career options, she enrolled in an MSW program at a local state school. She gets to work half-time for pay and accrue her clinical licensure hours at practicum during the day, with courses at night. She'll graduate in two years, get licensed in 3, and (with her pretty impressive planning organizational skills- much better than mine!), she'll end up with a likely combination of school-based counseling job and small private practice, making in that 80-100K plus range within a few years (all while suckering me to let her live at home and eat my food in the meantime!).

As another option, if you actually have the level of wealth where you would not need to finance any of that tuition (there are always those who say that money is not an issue for them, and of those it's probably actually true for some of them), invest it. At average annual stock market returns of 6.7% and with additional contributions of $100 per month, you double that number in about 11 years. Some of that money inevitably find it's way into the hands of private equity fiends who would make it less likely that you would be able make a living as a psychologist, but that's a topic for a whole other thread!

To expand on an analogy used above, this choice is like choosing between getting kicked in the really hard or getting kicked in the groin less hard, but still really hard! There may be situations when the latter is a better option, but I don't think this is one of them. I know that it sucks- the field, my company, and me all need a lot more really good psychologists. This path to that is just, imho, way too risky.
 
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Especially in light of the larger cohort sizes and practitioner focus. That’s a larger n not getting licensed. I sometimes see similar licensure % at small-cohort PhD programs, but I consider that less concerning. More likely to go another professional route that doesn’t require licensure.
Yeah- program I came from has licensure rates around 80% which is a drastic decrease from when I was there. However, it is now a clinical-scientist program, so a lot of people don't seek out licensure. EPPP pass rate is 100%, so if you want to be licensed, you probably would be. Last years internship match rate was 50%, but only 2 students applied.
 
Yeah- program I came from has licensure rates around 80% which is a drastic decrease from when I was there. However, it is now a clinical-scientist program, so a lot of people don't seek out licensure. EPPP pass rate is 100%, so if you want to be licensed, you probably would be. Last years internship match rate was 50%, but only 2 students applied.

Yeah, and licensure rate needs to be taken into context. For PsyDs, it should be very high. For a local clinical psych program that is very research intensive, that has longstanding 100% accredited match rates and 100% EPPP pass rates, their licensure rate is <70%, but they are also known for producing academics and applied career people. Contrast that with my old program, an R1 public uni, but known to be balanced (if not more clinically focused), and the licensure rate is 93%.
 
Yeah, and licensure rate needs to be taken into context. For PsyDs, it should be very high. For a local clinical psych program that is very research intensive, that has longstanding 100% accredited match rates and 100% EPPP pass rates, their licensure rate is <70%, but they are also known for producing academics and applied career people. Contrast that with my old program, an R1 public uni, but known to be balanced (if not more clinically focused), and the licensure rate is 93%.
I personally did not get licensed until 6 years after graduating, and then did not bill a psych code for another 8 years or so. Just didn't need to.
 
I'd offer a few caveats from a Marywood Bachelor's grad and Immaculata Psy.D. grad:

1. Immaculata is a non-traditional program that caters toward working adults, mainly master's level clinicians. The classes are held at night which allows students to pursue other forms of employment during the day. With that said, it gets tricky to balance all of that come practica time. There are some early 20-somethings BA/BS folks (myself included), but the demographic skews much older. I believe this accounts for attrition/licensure rate concerns discussed above. Marywood is very traditional, with little wiggle room for employment. Some of my friends worked flexible jobs, such as in-home therapists, but found it difficult to continue into the second year.

2. It is expensive in one of the highest cost of living areas on the east coast. However, costs can be offset by a number fully-funded assistantships. These are not guaranteed and students compete for them. They are not research focused, but they do provide really interesting experiences. For example, I worked in the office of student activities compiling data and briefing department heads. I didn't end up in academia, but learned a lot. Marywood does not have funding, but is in a much lower cost of living area.

3. Marywood is very CBT heavy, whereas Immaculata has a psychodynamic tilt.

4. From what I've seen, most folks prefer to stay in the greater Phila area and don't have the flexibility to move for internship, hence the captive program. Understood that captive internships typically don't look the greatest, but I believe this is the program's way of catering towards established folks. The consortium does have some excellent and unique sites and many folks successfully pursue neuro post docs. Marywood has excellent match rates, but there isn't much opportunity in Scranton for internships. I would have applied nationally, anyway, but it's something to note.

5. I didn't even bother applying to the captive internship program. When I applied to internship many moons ago, I was required to apply outside of the consortium. Matched at my number 1 site, felt fully prepared on internship, and found that my training was up to par with other reputable programs. I passed the EPPP first go round.

6. I can't explain why folks don't get licensed, other than older demographic. This has puzzled me since graduation. The majority of ba/bs folks in my cohort passed no problem.

All that said, I'm currently professionally satisfied, not in an exorbitant amount of debt, and feel clinically competent. I may be an outlier, though.
 
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I'd offer a few caveats from a Marywood Bachelor's grad and Immaculata Psy.D. grad:

1. Immaculata is a non-traditional program that caters toward working adults, mainly master's level clinicians. The classes are held at night which allows students to pursue other forms of employment during the day. With that said, it gets tricky to balance all of that come practica time. There are some early 20-somethings BA/BS folks (myself included), but the demographic skews much older. I believe this accounts for attrition/licensure rate concerns discussed above. Marywood is very traditional, with little wiggle room for employment. Some of my friends worked flexible jobs, such as in home therapists off-hours, but found it difficult to continue into the second year.

2. It is expensive in one of the highest cost of living areas on the east coast. However, costs can be offset by a number fully-funded assistantships. These are not guaranteed and students compete for them. They are not research-focused, but they do provide really interesting experiences. For example, I worked in the office of student activities compiling data and briefing department heads. I didn't end up in academia, but learned a lot. Marywood does not have funding, but is in a much lower cost of living area.

3. Marywood is very CBT heavy, whereas Immaculata has a psychodynamic tilt.

4. From what I've seen, most folks prefer to stay in the greater Phila area and don't have the flexibility to move for internship, hence the captive program. Understood that captive internships typically don't look the greatest, but I believe this is the program's way of catering towards established folks. The consortium does have some excellent and unique sites and many folks successfully pursue neuro post docs. Marywood has excellent match rates, but there isn't much opportunity in Scranton for internships. I would have applied nationally, anyway, but it's something to note.

5. I didn't even bother applying to the captive internship program. When I applied to internship many moons ago, I was required to apply outside of the consortium. Matched at my number 1 site, felt fully prepared on internship, and found that my training was up to par with other reputable programs. I passed the EPPP first go round.

6. I can't explain why folks don't get licensed, other than older demographic. This has puzzled me since graduation.

All that said, I'm currently professionally satisfied, not in an exorbitant amount of debt, and feel clinically competent. I may be an outlier, though.
Thank you for this reply. I sent you a message. 😊
 
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