Immunizations and You ...

[mshheaddoc]

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How many of you have been immunized?

If you haven't ... how have you gotten out of it for school records? (religious, health conditions, etc)

How do you as premeds feel about immunizations?


Wait for the poll...


So you guys know, in the US usually
DPT - Diptheria, Pertussis, and Tetanus are given together
as is MMR (measles, mumps, rubella)

 

[mshheaddoc]

Crap I spelled Hep wrong 🙁

 

[dbhvt]

Mad poll. Good work.

 

[Chris127]

Mostly everything for me...except chickenpox.

 

[browniegirl86]

Who got the TB vaccine? From other countries? It's usually recommended against in the US because it gives a positive PPD skin test.

TB fascinates me, sorry for the nerdy question. I went to India for healthcare volunteering over the summer and there was a debate over getting the vaccine or not. We ended up not getting it. The post-trip skin test was the most stressful I've ever taken . . . it actually reacted significantly but must have been a low level of infection because by the time the 72 hours were up, the reaction was gone.

*whew*

 

[ForeverStudent]

How many of you have been immunized?

If you haven't ... how have you gotten out of it for school records? (religious, health conditions, etc)

How do you as premeds feel about immunizations?

My parents were never vax'd, my siblings and I were never vax'd and none of my children were ever vax'd.

I think vaccinations need to be put to an end or at least, made safer.

Vaccine Ingredients
Just read what's in the vaccines and then research the diseases and see if you still want to mess around with them.

As an American Citizen you have the right to say no to any or all medical decisions. If you don't know your rights, then you have none.

It is quite easy to get through school with out immunizations, just sign the bottom and check the box that says you object to them and get it notarized.

I, also, think parents should have the right to sue doctors who administer vaccines without their consent.

 

[dbhvt]

I, also, think parents should have the right to sue doctors who administer vaccines without their consent.

They do.

 

[browniegirl86]

They do.

How's that post count coming? 😀

 

[dbhvt]

😎 Like I said. The trick is to lose the filter. I think trick number 2 is to respond to trolls.

 

[prana_md]

I got all your standard kid vaccinces plus your health care worker ones.

This was the first year I got the flu vaccine and the first year I didn't get the flu, so I'm (with my data point of one) all for it.

I also was in a clinical trial of the meningitis vaccine, so I may or may not have that one.

Call me a PHARMA pawn, but I get really exasperated with people who don't do vaccines. If this could not dissolve into a flame war but actually include (peer-reviewed) information, I'd love to learn more about either view-point.

EDIT: Personally, I'd take some fetal rhesus monkey lung over polio any day.

 

[ForeverStudent]

How do you plan on being the best doctor if you haven't even done research on one of the most important aspects of the medical industry, that of vaccinations?

The rise in Autism, SIDS, infant mortality rate, none of that gets you using your brain?

I guess I want to be the best Doctor for my patients, not just blindly follow everyone else.

 

[ForeverStudent]

Call me a PHARMA pawn, but I get really exasperated with people who don't do vaccines. If this could not dissolve into a flame war but actually include (peer-reviewed) information, I'd love to learn more about either view-point.

Yeah, it really sounds like you are open to learning. Hope I never have you as a student.

 

[dbhvt]

I just like highlighting the funny parts, for your enjoyment.

If this could not dissolve into a flame war...
I'd love to learn more about either view-point

Yeah, it really sounds like you are open to learning. Hope I never have you as a student.

Oh bother, I still haven't figured the image thing out.

Trying again.

 

[prana_md]

at the risk of repeating myself ...

If this could not dissolve into a flame war but actually include (peer-reviewed) information, I'd love to learn more about either view-point.

 

[Pemberley]

Just missed 100%... no lyme disease or TB, and I acquired my chickenpox immunity the old-fashioned way. (These forums make me feel old sometimes!)

Other: you forgot anthrax!

-Pemberley

 

[mshheaddoc]

I didn't have room to put it 🙁 Otherwise I would have 😀


I got chickenpox the old fashion way as well ... luckily my brother got it worse

 

[prana_md]

http://www.interpretivearson.com/gallery/album04/flame

That's so awesome. There's got to be a use for that picture in my office somewhere ...

 

[DarkFark]

I couldn't imagine a world without vaccines. No way I ever would have gone to the rainforest without being protected from yellow fever- I've never heard of a vaccine side effect could be nastier than that bug.

I don't think that there's any doubt that vaccines can have problematic side effects, but isn't it an overwhelmingly favorable calculated risk? Also, just because something unsavory (i.e. formaldehyde) is used to make a vaccine, doesn't mean that such things arent filtered out of the final product.

Anti-vaccine positions seem like luddite talk to me.

 

[mshheaddoc]

How do you plan on being the best doctor if you haven't even done research on one of the most important aspects of the medical industry, that of vaccinations?

The rise in Autism, SIDS, infant mortality rate, none of that gets you using your brain?

There has been no correlation to this. There hopefully will be more research on these topics to either support or refute current claims.

I believe that many things are on the rise in the US and people try to find something to blame it on. There are valid reactions I'm sure to these vaccines which need to be studied but as the CDC states that the risks of the disease are extremely very low compared to the effects of the disease.

I am all for public disclosure and parental rights, but when it comes what is best for the country, the US also has one of the lowest incidence of vaccine-preventable diseases. here

 

[ForeverStudent]

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/side-effects.htm#signs
From the CDC itself,
(

DTaP)
Moderate problems (uncommon)

Seizure (jerking or staring) (about 1 child out of 14,000)
Non-stop crying, for 3 hours or more (up to about 1 child out of 1,000)
High fever, over 105F (about 1 child out of 16,000)

Those numbers are way too high for my comfort.
We now have antibiotics, IV fluids, etc to help treat any complications we might get from the actual disease, IF, we were unsanitary enough to catch it in the first place.

Ever hear of this?
Doctors have debilitating reactions to MMR

http://www.vran.org/

 

[browniegirl86]

Just missed 100%... no lyme disease or TB, and I acquired my chickenpox immunity the old-fashioned way. (These forums make me feel old sometimes!)

Other: you forgot anthrax!

-Pemberley

offtopic but I couldn't resist:

Iverson was my Ochem teacher.

Pretty cool.

Back to vaccines!

 

[Law2Doc]

It is quite easy to get through school with out immunizations, just sign the bottom and check the box that says you object to them and get it notarized.

Are you premed? There isn't going to be such a check the box/notary space on the med school immunization form. You don't get immunized, you aren't going to be working in the wards.

 

[ForeverStudent]

There has been no correlation to this. There hopefully will be more research on these topics to either support or refute current claims.

I believe that many things are on the rise in the US and people try to find something to blame it on. There are valid reactions I'm sure to these vaccines which need to be studied but as the CDC states that the risks of the disease are extremely very low compared to the effects of the disease.

I am all for public disclosure and parental rights, but when it comes what is best for the country, the US also has one of the lowest incidence of vaccine-preventable diseases. here

Then how the F did people survive before vaccinations? Really, you sound like you have never even read any of the actual studies. Do you even know where vaccines came from? Who invented them or why they are used? And, please, don't give me the bull that your doctor fed your ma back in the hills.
This is the 21st century and I am assuming you are an adult, right? Can't you make your own medical decisions by now?

 

[prana_md]

Thimerosal-containing vaccines and autistic spectrum disorder: a critical review of published original data.

 

[ForeverStudent]

Are you premed? There isn't going to be such a check the box/notary space on the med school immunization form. You don't get immunized, you aren't going to be working in the wards.

It is against the law to deny me into med school for not getting vaccinated. I know my rights.
My own parents were never vaccinated and they are both PhD's. I have an Aunt who is a judge and the other is a lawyer. I think I know what I am talking about, tyvm.

 

[Pemberley]

Those numbers are way too high for my comfort.

Do the numbers of children that died every year before polio vaccinations were developed (just to name an example) make you more or less comfortable?

I'm leaning toward less comfortable myself, but that obviously makes me the credulous dupe of a government conspiracy. 😛

-Pemberley

 

[Law2Doc]

Then how the F did people survive before vaccinations?

Um, they didn't. Things like rubella were epidemics that wiped out large chunks of populations.

 

[mshheaddoc]

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/side-effects.htm#signs
From the CDC itself,
(
Those numbers are way too high for my comfort.
We now have antibiotics, IV fluids, etc to help treat any complications we might get from the actual disease, IF, we were unsanitary enough to catch it in the first place.

Ever hear of this?
Doctors have debilitating reactions to MMR

http://www.vran.org/

😕 High numbers are good ... low numbers are bad.

And that is only SEIZURES ... nothing is saying they are permanent. I realize what seizures are and how harmful they can be but I don't think those stats are bad at all.

Wait, you are willing to expose your child to some of these medications required to treat these diseases? And their side effects, but NOT vaccinate them though?

 

[mshheaddoc]

Um, they didn't. Things like rubella were epidemics that wiped out large chunks of populations.

Very true and now our populations are exploding since we are able to prevent these diseases as well as treat them.

 

[Law2Doc]

It is against the law to deny me into med school for not getting vaccinated. I know my rights.
My own parents were never vaccinated and they are both PhD's. I have an Aunt who is a judge and the other is a lawyer. I think I know what I am talking about, tyvm.

LOL -- you may want to run this by the lawyer then. I think you are misinformed about some of your rights. Good luck with that.

 

[dbhvt]

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/side-effects.htm#signs
From the CDC itself,

Seizure (jerking or staring) (about 1 child out of 14,000)

Febrile seizures affect 2% to 4% of children, whether they've had a vaccine or not. The miniscule rate of seizures potentially attributable to immunization is not a significant factor in any decision I would make.

http://www.webmd.com/hw/raising_a_family/hw92585.asp

 

[browniegirl86]

It is against the law to deny me into med school for not getting vaccinated. I know my rights.
My own parents were never vaccinated and they are both PhD's. I have an Aunt who is a judge and the other is a lawyer. I think I know what I am talking about, tyvm.

The difference is that you're a medical liability (for the sake of thoroughness, in the eyes of the medical community) if you're not vaccinated. You can get a PhD/JD without ever working with PATIENTS or rotating through a CLINICAL setting. You are not legally allowed to work in hospitals if you're not vaccinated.

 

[browniegirl86]

Very true and now our populations are exploding since we are able to prevent these diseases as well as treat them.

That's a whole other can of worms

 

[stiffany]

I hate shots. Really, I do. I have no problem seeing someone else get a needle inserted into them, but if it's me, I get all clammy and my heart starts to pound.

That being said, I'd much rather get a vaccination for Hep A then have to endure its effects so, before traveling to Latin America in March I added Hep A, typhoid, and a tetanus booster to my list of completed vaccines. I feel the same way about other vaccinations (although as a kid, excepting Hep B and meningitis, I didn't have a choice - Although since my college required those upon matriculation there wasn't much of a choice either). So, I'd much rather see myself and say future offspring vaccinated instead of dealing with the potential devastation caused by polio or other conditions listed on the poll.

In addition, one of the reasons vaccinations are useful is to reduce the susceptibility of a given population to a condition. This is one of the ways that polio was able to be eradicated in this country. In addition, while it's easy for many of us (including some of the posters above me who have specifically mentioned this) to say that "oh, well we have the antibiotics or the procedural treatment" or whatever to cure some diseases (there is no cure for a few on your list by the way such as Hep B), other people are not as fortunate. We have 43 million people in our country alone who were not insured at least part of last year and many of them may not have access to affordable healthcare in their neighborhoods. In addition, when you talk about other countries where treatment is not available with poor rates of vaccination, morbidity and mortality quickly escalate. While some people do have ideologies against vaccination, I think in some ways those needlepricks are a necessary evil to reducing a public health threat.

Finally, as an FYI, for the poster who linked vaccination and Autism, while people in England (and elsewhere) have been trying to link the MMR vaccination and Autism, they haven't been able to do so. In fact, despite a ban on this useful vaccination in Japan, autism is still on the rise according to a risk-controlled trial involving over 30,000 kids. Furthermore, the only thing that seems certain is that kids tend to show signs of autism around the same time they get their MMR vaccination in the vaccine sequence. So, it is most likely just a spurious relationship.

Flame me away as you wish. I do think it's important, however, to put fears in the context of both our global world and in hard science.

 

[ForeverStudent]

Thimerosal-containing vaccines and autistic spectrum disorder: a critical review of published original data.

I checked the backgrounds of the doctors who did that study and I am sorry, but I don't buy it. How is some guy you studies zebrafish going to know the first thing about how to study the effects of vaccinations?

I will believe reputable Doctors who have actually done the research, such as Dr. Jay Gordon, Dr. Mendohlson, and others.

Here's something new from 2005 on DTap Vaccine
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16557217&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum

the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) recommends that: 1) adolescents aged 11-18 years should receive a single dose of Tdap instead of ....

So, if anything, it is important for your future patients that we all stay on top of what is going on in the vaccination world.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Then how the F did people survive before vaccinations? Really, you sound like you have never even read any of the actual studies. Do you even know where vaccines came from? Who invented them or why they are used? And, please, don't give me the bull that your doctor fed your ma back in the hills.
This is the 21st century and I am assuming you are an adult, right? Can't you make your own medical decisions by now?

Hmmm ... contrary to your belief I'm currently reading quite a bit of literature on vaccines, one being MMR and Autism by Dr. Michael Fitzpatrick. I also have read quite a bit about this over the past few weeks as I have watched this MMR epidemic unfold.

No one KNEW what autism was 50 years ago. Now that they are able to diagnose it at earlier ages now they are trying to find causation.

Science is evolving ... one day we will understand this and something else will come along. Currently though, most scientific evidence does not support the claims you are stating. Maybe one day everything can be sorted out scientifically.

 

[ForeverStudent]

Do the numbers of children that died every year before polio vaccinations were developed (just to name an example) make you more or less comfortable?

I'm leaning toward less comfortable myself, but that obviously makes me the credulous dupe of a government conspiracy. 😛

-Pemberley

If you do the actual research, you will see that the decline in disease had more to do with sanitaryt conditions and the inventions of better antibiotics and the ability to rehydrate a person.

vaccines are a nice way of saying they are injecting your body with a disease. I don't understand how an intelligent person can make themselves believe that is okay.

Natural immunity is way better than expecting a 2 day old infant to be able to fight off 3-6 diseases being injected into their bodies.

Please, use your brains, we are medical students, not idiots.

 

[mustangsally65]

I'm getting the meningitis vaccine next week, so I didn't check it. I also only had one DPT shot and had a reaction to the pertussis vaccination (so I'm told) so I only get the Td shot now. I also got the varicella protection the old fashioned way, in 1986. I had a titer in January and I have plenty of immunity. 😉

I've never been out of the country so I haven't had the yellow fever or typhoid vaccinations. But I expect as I get closer to being a docor I'll be getting more and more vaccinations. It's one of the sacrifices we make when going into this profession.

 

[browniegirl86]

In addition, while it's easy for many of us (including some of the posters above me who have specifically mentioned this) to say that "oh, well we have the antibiotics or the procedural treatment" or whatever to cure some diseases (there is no cure for a few on your list by the way such as Hep B), other people are not as fortunate. We have 43 million people in our country alone who were not insured at least part of last year and many of them may not have access to affordable healthcare in their neighborhoods. In addition, when you talk about other countries where treatment is not available with poor rates of vaccination, morbidity and mortality quickly escalate. While some people do have ideologies against vaccination, I think in some ways those needlepricks are a necessary evil to reducing a public health threat.

Great post.

To add . . . while we do have antibiotics, resistance is developing rapidly due to improper use and plain old mutation. What are NOT developing rapidly are new antibiotics. Vaccinations are one way to buy some time to develop new, more effective treatments for these dangerous diseases, and also to reduce the overall rate of the disease so that fewer dificult-to-treat/untreatable cases arise.

I know that if I lived in a country with a high rate of TB infection, I'd sure as hell know I was protected by a vaccine rather than rely solely on antibiotic treatment and end up with MDRTB. (This is just an example.)

 

[browniegirl86]

If you do the actual research, you will see that the decline in disease had more to do with sanitaryt conditions and the inventions of better antibiotics and the ability to rehydrate a person.

vaccines are a nice way of saying they are injecting your body with a disease. I don't understand how an intelligent person can make themselves believe that is okay.

Natural immunity is way better than expecting a 2 day old infant to be able to fight off 3-6 diseases being injected into their bodies.

Please, use your brains, we are medical students, not idiots.

A 2 day old infant does not have natural immunity. All he or she has is the maternal immunity that has transferred through the placenta. So if YOU have no immunity against, say, pertussis, then the baby has none either.

 

[ForeverStudent]

The difference is that you're a medical liability (for the sake of thoroughness, in the eyes of the medical community) if you're not vaccinated. You can get a PhD/JD without ever working with PATIENTS or rotating through a CLINICAL setting. You are not legally allowed to work in hospitals if you're not vaccinated.

Honestly, how do you think so many doctors got through med school without being immunized and have gone on to not immunize their children, and we are now on our path to become doctors? really , get a clue.
You do know the First Amendment, right?

 

[dbhvt]

Please, use your brains, we are medical students, not idiots.

Some of us are both, but I have a sneaking suspicion you fit into only one of those categories.

 

[mshheaddoc]

LOL -- you may want to run this by the lawyer then. I think you are misinformed about some of your rights. Good luck with that.

You have to provide all documentations of immunizations prior to 3rd year. Although I think as someone stated previously, you have have a titer.

Additionally some states have laws pertaining to this issues ... http://www.unhinderedliving.com/statevaccexemp.html

I wonder if private schools would uphold the state laws? Any insight?

here's another article of interest NCSL State legislation

 

[ForeverStudent]

A 2 day old infant does not have natural immunity. All he or she has is the maternal immunity that has transferred through the placenta. So if YOU have no immunity against, say, pertussis, then the baby has none either.

That is BS! I have been attending births for over 25 years.
That is why breastmilk is created. I mean really, you guys call yourself med students?
I haven't made it into Med school, yet, one more year! but at least I know what I am talking about and don't go spouting midieval BS.

I actually learn what is going on in the here and now, not what was written in the 18th century. You guys do know that we can read other books besides our assigned texts, right?
AND, we can even visit REAL doctors and talk to them! Wow!
You should try it some time, you might actually learn something.

 

[browniegirl86]

Honestly, how do you think so many doctors got through med school without being immunized and have gone on to not immunize their children, and we are now on our path to become doctors? really , get a clue.
You do know the First Amendment, right?

From my understanding, they don't. How about you give us some of that proof you're so fond of (NON-anecdotal, please) to demonstrate your point?

And also, please elaborate on how this is a First Amendment issue. Perhaps I misunderstood the rights it grants.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

 

[stiffany]

Honestly, how do you think so many doctors got through med school without being immunized and have gone on to not immunize their children, and we are now on our path to become doctors? really , get a clue.
You do know the First Amendment, right?

I tend to agree with Law2Doc. In order for me to work at a local children's hospital (with very very limited access to patients), I had to show my vaccination record and get a PPD. No one cared that I didn't like needle pricks and even after I protested (in part b/c of that lack of any real patient contact), I was told (more nicely than this, but nonetheless) that I could either get it or walk away from the job.

This is an interesting ethical question though because it does come down to the possibility of discriminating against someone with particular religious beliefs for the sake of greater public health.

 

[mshheaddoc]

That is BS! I have been attending births for over 25 years.
That is why breastmilk is created. I mean really, you guys call yourself med students?
I haven't made it into Med school, yet, one more year! but at least I know what I am talking about and don't go spouting midieval BS.

Holy CRAP. You are kidding me right? Breastmilk for protection against pertussis?

 

[DarkFark]

Great post.

To add . . . while we do have antibiotics, resistance is developing rapidly due to improper use and plain old mutation. What are NOT developing rapidly are new antibiotics. Vaccinations are one way to buy some time to develop new, more effective treatments for these dangerous diseases, and also to reduce the overall rate of the disease so that fewer dificult-to-treat/untreatable cases arise.

I know that if I lived in a country with a high rate of TB infection, I'd sure as hell know I was protected by a vaccine rather than rely solely on antibiotic treatment and end up with MDRTB. (This is just an example.)

Good point. I'd also like to add (strangely no one seems to have mentioned... unless I missed it) that viruses cant be treated with antibiotics.


Also, an easy way of looking at this that 3rd world countries have much igher infant death rates. One could counter that maybe thats just because of poor sanitation/famine, but then, maybe there are other explanations for SIDS besides vaccines...

 

[dbhvt]

I haven't made it into Med school, yet, one more year!

I think you should talk about vaccines and the first ammendment your personal statement.

 

[DarkFark]

That is BS! I have been attending births for over 25 years.
That is why breastmilk is created. I mean really, you guys call yourself med students?
I haven't made it into Med school, yet, one more year! but at least I know what I am talking about and don't go spouting midieval BS.

I actually learn what is going on in the here and now, not what was written in the 18th century. You guys do know that we can read other books besides our assigned texts, right?
AND, we can even visit REAL doctors and talk to them! Wow!
You should try it some time, you might actually learn something.

Just because someone has MD after their name doesnt mean they aren't a quack.