Immunizations and You ...

[browniegirl86]

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Please, use your brains, we are medical students, not idiots.

Some of us are both, but I have a sneaking suspicion you fit into only one of those categories.

haven't made it into Med school, yet, one more year!

Guess that clears that up.

 

[mshheaddoc]

This is an interesting ethical question though because it does come down to the possibility of discriminating against someone with particular religious beliefs for the sake of greater public health.

Read here there is

Parents may legally avoid vaccinating their children with personal exemptions. Three types of exemptions exist: medical, religious, and philosophical. All 50 states have adopted medical exemptions for children at significant risk from the vaccination, such as those with compromised immune systems. Religious exemptions exist in 48 states and permit individuals and parents to refuse vaccination on religious grounds. Philosophical exemptions exist in 19 states. These allow parents to refuse vaccinations without a specific religious justification. Of note, religious and philosophical exemptions account for only a small percentage of unvaccinated children. In 1998, the average percentage of children unvaccinated as a result of nonmedical personal exemption was 0.6 percent

Also, here is a sample immunization form - it only shows that DT vaccine is "required"
http://registrar.uth.tmc.edu/Forms/immuform.pdf

 

[ForeverStudent]

Some of us are both, but I have a sneaking suspicion you fit into only one of those categories.

Yeah, that's why I am already employed at two of the hospitals in my area, and have even been able to pay off most of my loans while raising a family. I have six children, btw, not cheap. 😉
Did I also mention I have a lakeside view? Yeah, it's nice.

I guess I am a bit of a "troll" today, as it is the first time in a long time I had a day to myself. I just can't believe the ignorance I am reading on here!

Oh, and my little sister is on here somewhere. I should probably go find her and say Hi. She's the smart one, ten years younger than myself and already in Dartmouth. I am so proud of you, Lil Sis! If you ever read this post of mine. 😀

 

[stiffany]

If you do the actual research, you will see that the decline in disease had more to do with sanitaryt conditions and the inventions of better antibiotics and the ability to rehydrate a person.

vaccines are a nice way of saying they are injecting your body with a disease. I don't understand how an intelligent person can make themselves believe that is okay.

Natural immunity is way better than expecting a 2 day old infant to be able to fight off 3-6 diseases being injected into their bodies.

Please, use your brains, we are medical students, not idiots.

You're entirely right (and no one has to do the actual research on this forum, it's been done by noted demographers such as Cairns and others). Over the last say 70 years since sulfa drugs (I don't remember whether it was the late 20s or early 30s) and then penicillin (40s) have been available, we've seen a huge decline in morbidity and mortality and a subsequent increase in life expectancy. However, even before this, life expectancy dramatically increased most likely due to better nutrition, better sanitation (thanks in part to an idea about miasmas and in part to the great new idea known as the germ theory). However, at the same time, huge advances have been made in preventing disability and mortality in children and the elderly (for things like the flu vaccine) through vaccination.

I will admit that I am not an immunologist and therefore have nothing but a foggy idea of how the immune system works. I do know that a baby has a rudimentary immune system upon birth (thank you mother) and also that the immune system continues to enhance during development post-partum (one of the reasons why breast feeding has been shown to be healthier). However, logically given the use of immunizations and the much lower incidence of diseases in populations with immunizations versus those without, it seems that immunization better prepares the body for fighting off an infection than just the standard immune system alone. Seems self evident to me given, from my previous post, the eradication of certain diseases such as polio.

Finally, while there are some live versions of vaccinations (like the oral typhoid vaccination), most vaccinations are actually dead versions of the organism causing disease. So it's not like you're being injected with huge vats of live pathogens.

 

[mshheaddoc]

working at a hospital is a LITTLE different then med school.

Check your state laws and your med school ... you might eligible for titers

Yale states: Student Requirements

Matriculation
Immunization Requirements

Connecticut State law requires all incoming students to provide written proof of adequate immunization to Measles (Rubeola) and German Measles (Rubella) in order to register for classes. All medical students are also required to provide documentation of immunization to Mumps, Varicella, Hepatitis B, PPD, Tetanus-Diphtheria and polio.

http://info.med.yale.edu/education/osa/requirements/index.html

So sure you can get in somewhere but some programs might not take you.

 

[DarkFark]

Did I also mention I have a lakeside view? Yeah, it's nice.

Oh yeah? well I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!

 

[browniegirl86]

Oh yeah? well I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!

Hahahahaha lmao. I love that skit.

 

[PariPari]

That is BS! I have been attending births for over 25 years.
That is why breastmilk is created. I mean really, you guys call yourself med students?
I haven't made it into Med school, yet, one more year! but at least I know what I am talking about and don't go spouting midieval BS.

I actually learn what is going on in the here and now, not what was written in the 18th century. You guys do know that we can read other books besides our assigned texts, right?
AND, we can even visit REAL doctors and talk to them! Wow!
You should try it some time, you might actually learn something.

Ah, immunology. It's a tricky little subject. A child has no "actual" immune system of it's own. It's immunity is passive acquisition from the mother, which starts to wane at about 6months, hence why in developing countries w/o a rigorious [sic] vaccine schedule is when previously healthy infants start to get sick.

You can get the MMR series separately. And there's probably more thimerosol in Salmon than the MMR.

Vaccinology is a very complex subject and nobody here can claim to know much about the proccess, no matter how many books they've read.

IF you want a good eyebrow raising read the Virus & the vaccine

 

[Prospero]

How is some guy you studies zebrafish going to know the first thing about how to study the effects of vaccinations?

I'm a little late coming into this little discussion, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents about this at least. Zebrafish can be used to study host/pathogen interaction, which seems like it might have a lot to do with immunity, which I would guess would make someone inclined to know a bit about immunity issues, such as vaccines. Just a thought, though it seems that you cannot be a "real" doctor if you don't have an MD, which means that there's a LOT of research out there done by fake doctors. Also, what would that make an MD/PhD?

 

[ForeverStudent]

I'm a little late coming into this little discussion, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents about this at least. Zebrafish can be used to study host/pathogen interaction, which seems like it might have a lot to do with immunity, which I would guess would make someone inclined to know a bit about immunity issues, such as vaccines. Just a thought, though it seems that you cannot be a "real" doctor if you don't have an MD, which means that there's a LOT of research out there done by fake doctors. Also, what would that make an MD/PhD?

So, someone who cannot afford the piece of paper that entitles him to be labeled MD or PhD, yet has done the actual, real research for over 25 years is dumber than the rich kid with the paper?

get a clue.

 

[PariPari]

WOW it takes all kinds i suppose. There is no reasoning w/ some people, and even the CDC had to work w/ the anti-vaccination lobby when creating the pandemic preparedness plan. More for me I suppose.



ANYWAY the vaccine I had that's not on the list is the Japanese Encephalitis

Polio, DPT, MMR, rabies, typhoid, Hep A&B (combo-vax), yellow fever,

 

[mshheaddoc]

Found it 🙂

Student Immunization Requirements

Immunizations are extremely important to you as you prepare to enter medical school and as a medical care provider. During medical school and in the future much of what you do in the health care setting will come under federal Occupational Safety and Health Act (OSHA) guidelines. Under these and other guidelines there are certain sets of immunizations that are required for all health care providers.

http://www.com.msu.edu/ss/immunizations.html

 

[DarkFark]

So, someone who cannot afford the piece of paper that entitles him to be labeled MD or PhD, yet has done the actual, real research for over 25 years is dumber than the rich kid with the paper?

get a clue.

It's called financial aid, dude.

Also, there are a ton of MSTP programs that dont charge tuition.

 

[ForeverStudent]

However, logically given the use of immunizations and the much lower incidence of diseases in populations with immunizations versus those without, it seems that immunization better prepares the body for fighting off an infection than just the standard immune system alone. Seems self evident to me given, from my previous post, the eradication of certain diseases such as polio.

It is this flawed logic that is killing infants and children today.
Polio has not been eradicated, there were 9 cases in MN like last month or maybe it's been two months.. anyways, it was proven that the only way the children got polio was from vaccinated children who shed the virus.
It is not unvaccinated people that we need to worry about, but carriers who are shedding disease. There are billions of unvaccinated human beings on this planet who will be perfectly healthy and not shed any disease upon you.

 

[Prospero]

It is this flawed logic that is killing infants and children today.
Polio has not been eradicated, there were 9 cases in MN like last month or maybe it's been two months.. anyways, it was proven that the only way the children got polio was from vaccinated children who shed the virus.
It is not unvaccinated people that we need to worry about, but carriers who are shedding disease. There are billions of unvaccinated human beings on this planet who will be perfectly healthy and not shed any disease upon you.

OK fine, if polio doesn't work for you, how about smallpox. Unless the russians decided to sell of a culture or two, there's only a couple of stocks left of it, and it is otherwise eradicated.

 

[ForeverStudent]

OK fine, if polio doesn't work for you, how about smallpox. Unless the russians decided to sell of a culture or two, there's only a couple of stocks left of it, and it is otherwise eradicated.

It was naturally eradicated. There is no vaccine that is given to thousands of children that contain smallpox.
How's that for logic? 😉

 

[PariPari]

It is this flawed logic that is killing infants and children today.
Polio has not been eradicated, there were 9 cases in MN like last month or maybe it's been two months.. anyways, it was proven that the only way the children got polio was from vaccinated children who shed the virus.
It is not unvaccinated people that we need to worry about, but carriers who are shedding disease. There are billions of unvaccinated human beings on this planet who will be perfectly healthy and not shed any disease upon you.

Actually the "beauty" of the live-attenuated polio vaccine is that b/c it replicates in the GI tract, & is shed, it allows those who weren't immunized to be (OMG) exposed to the "non-pathogenic" strain. Allowing for the whole herd immunity. It's b/c of me & my vaccines that you don't actually need to be vaccinated.

The polio vaccine is pretty complicated & the CDC/Rotary international Declared WILD polio virus eradicated in the US long ago. The reversion strains are still less severe and don't result in flacid paralysis that everyone associates w/ polio

 

[Lorrayne]

It is this flawed logic that is killing infants and children today.
Polio has not been eradicated, there were 9 cases in MN like last month or maybe it's been two months.. anyways, it was proven that the only way the children got polio was from vaccinated children who shed the virus.
It is not unvaccinated people that we need to worry about, but carriers who are shedding disease. There are billions of unvaccinated human beings on this planet who will be perfectly healthy and not shed any disease upon you.

Sorry, but you're the one with the flawed logic. Vaccinations did not create these diseases. They existed long before modern medicine and killed millions (ever hear of smallpox?). IF a few people are contracting the diseases now due to others "shedding" viruses, their numbers are far, far fewer than the numbers of those who would be infected if we did not have vaccinations. Smallpox, tetanus, polio: these are just a few of the diseases that have almost been completely eradicated thanks to vaccinations.

 

[Prospero]

It was naturally eradicated. There is no vaccine that is given to thousands of children that contain smallpox.
How's that for logic? 😉

No offense, but "naturally eradicated" seems fairly impossible in a 10 year span. Very few things can select so strongly that an entire organism will die out in 10 years. If you don't believe me, perhaps the Mayo Clinic is more credible. I've heard of them once or twice anyway, I think they have a bit of a reputation.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/CC00013

 

[ForeverStudent]

Found it 🙂

http://www.com.msu.edu/ss/immunizations.html

As I stated before, my rights to refuse vaccinations are protected under the First Amendment, as is every American Citizen.

 

[Prospero]

As I stated before, my rights to refuse vaccinations are protected under the First Amendment, as is every American Citizen.

That is fine, but you have no rights to practice medicine under the first amendment, which means you are subject to the regulations put in place by the bodies that govern medical practice. Sorry.

 

[browniegirl86]

As I stated before, my rights to refuse vaccinations are protected under the First Amendment, as is every American Citizen.

The school also has a right to refuse you admission.

 

[ForeverStudent]

No offense, but "naturally eradicated" seems fairly impossible in a 10 year span. Very few things can select so strongly that an entire organism will die out in 10 years. If you don't believe me, perhaps the Mayo Clinic is more credible. I've heard of them once or twice anyway, I think they have a bit of a reputation.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/CC00013

Okay, so you honestly think diseases can not be eradicated naturally, yet you believe that injecting diseases into the body will eradicate a disease?

 

[DarkFark]

As I stated before, my rights to refuse vaccinations are protected under the First Amendment, as is every American Citizen.

Alright, at some point you just have to call shenanigans. Are you making stuff up? Just in case you arent...

Why can't children swear at people at school? isnt their speech protected by the first amendment? I guess not

Could it be, that when you enter into an agreement with an educational institution, you agree to suspend some of your rights, as in a form of social contract? hmm?


The medical school isn't going to to force you to get vacinated... unless you go there. If you dont get vacinated, they are within their rights not to educate you. simple.

 

[ForeverStudent]

working at a hospital is a LITTLE different then med school.

Check your state laws and your med school ... you might eligible for titers

Yale states: Student Requirements

Matriculation
Immunization Requirements

Connecticut State law requires all incoming students to provide written proof of adequate immunization to Measles (Rubeola) and German Measles (Rubella) in order to register for classes. All medical students are also required to provide documentation of immunization to Mumps, Varicella, Hepatitis B, PPD, Tetanus-Diphtheria and polio.

http://info.med.yale.edu/education/osa/requirements/index.html

So sure you can get in somewhere but some programs might not take you.

You knwo, I have lived my entire life without vaccinations, as have my entire family and then some. So, don't try and tell me what I already know. My family has several Doctors and PhD's. My older sister got into Med school just fine and she has never been vax'd either.
Take your stu-pid scare tactics elsewhere. Not interested.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Alright, at some point you just have to call shenanigans. Are you making stuff up? Just in case you arent...

Why can't children swear at people at school? isnt their speech protected by the first amendment? I guess not

Could it be, that when you enter into an agreement with an educational institution, you agree to suspend some of your rights, as in a form of social contract? hmm?


The medical school isn't going to to force you to get vacinated... unless you go there. If you dont get vacinated, they are within their rights not to educate you. simple.

As I stated before, some schools allow titers but I would wonder about whether 3rd year/4th yr clerkships as well as residencies.

 

[browniegirl86]

Alright, at some point you just have to call shenanigans. Are you making stuff up? Just in case you arent...

Why can't children swear at people at school? isnt their speech protected by the first amendment? I guess not

Could it be, that when you enter into an agreement with an educational institution, you agree to suspend some of your rights, as in a form of social contract? hmm?


The medical school isn't going to to force you to get vacinated... unless you go there. If you dont get vacinated, they are within their rights not to educate you. simple.

I'm gonna pistol whip the next guy who says shenanigans!

Hey Farva . . . 😀

 

[PariPari]

Okay, so you honestly think diseases can not be eradicated naturally, yet you believe that injecting diseases into the body will eradicate a disease?

unless you live in a small enough society (ie island community) diseases can't naturally be eradicated b/c the population size is too large and will sustain carriers and then there will be a new population of "susceptibles" and the disease will spread again.

& the first amendment is not the catch all amendment to do whatever you want whenever you want.

 

[Prospero]

Okay, so you honestly think diseases can not be eradicated naturally, yet you believe that injecting diseases into the body will eradicate a disease?

If you would read what I said, I was pointing out that 10 years is far to quick for a natural decline in the smallpox population throughout the world. It just does not happen that fast when you're dealing with natural forces... unless that natural force happens to be a gigantic freakin' asteroid hitting the planet. There are diseases that I'm sure have come and gone naturally, but smallpox ain't one of 'em, nor is anything else that dies off in 10 years. If HIV disappeared from the earth 10 years after the introduction of a vaccine, would you still claim that the virus died off naturally?

 

[DarkFark]

I'm gonna pistol whip the next guy who says shenanigans!

Hey Farva . . . 😀

 

[ForeverStudent]

. It's b/c of me & my vaccines that you don't actually need to be vaccinated.

Now that is the biggest BS I have ever heard. Puhleeeze! That is garbage your grandpa would spout.

I am telling you now, that the research has been done, you need to open your eyes and actually read it.
It's even in the CDC reports. Proof that vaccinations cause more problems than they solve.

Why can't children swear at people at school? isnt their speech protected by the first amendment? I guess not

Could it be, that when you enter into an agreement with an educational institution, you agree to suspend some of your rights, as in a form of social contract? hmm?

Guess someone doesn't know their rights.
Try checking out Freedom of Religion, that might clue you in as to what I am talking about. 😉

 

[ForeverStudent]

unless you live in a small enough society (ie island community) diseases can't naturally be eradicated b/c the population size is too large and will sustain carriers and then there will be a new population of "susceptibles" and the disease will spread again.

What makes you believe that they can be eradicated unnaturally?
I have already posted links by reputable Doctors who have proven with methodical research that vaccines do more harm than good, there is also information debunking the myth of "herd immunity".

 

[Wickedgood]

So, someone who cannot afford the piece of paper that entitles him to be labeled MD or PhD, yet has done the actual, real research for over 25 years is dumber than the rich kid with the paper?

get a clue.

Your claim of extensive research reminds me of the supposed "research"/knowledge of a well-known actor, who is very vocal against psychiatry and anti-depressants. Is that you Tom Cruise?? Your arguments parallel his quite nicely. http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3tc.htm

😛

 

[Prospero]

Assuming you get past the vaccination screen, and all that, I have a feeling the pimping process is going to be a real trial for you foreverstudent. I'm sorry for you in advance.

 

[browniegirl86]

Assuming you get past the vaccination screen, and all that, I have a feeling the pimping process is going to be a real trial for you foreverstudent. I'm sorry for you in advance.

I'm not after being called stupid and ignorant about 50 times today.

I'd like to see it all go down though! From a distance. With some drinks.

 

[PariPari]

You are seriously making more "enemies" than friends.
I had no problem w/ your choice to not vaccinate, your choice, but it's only your choice b/c others have been vaccinated reaching the required numbers for herd immunity. I'm not making it up, go read the CDC reports.

I pointed out that the CDC had to work w/ the anit-vaccine group when planning the pandemic preparedness plan, & even suggested you go read the book the Virus & the Vaccine, about the finding of SV40 in the Polio vaccine b/c they rushed production.

 

[DarkFark]

Now that is the biggest BS I have ever heard. Puhleeeze! That is garbage your grandpa would spout.

I am telling you now, that the research has been done, you need to open your eyes and actually read it.
It's even in the CDC reports. Proof that vaccinations cause more problems than they solve.

Guess someone doesn't know their rights.
Try checking out Freedom of Religion, that might clue you in as to what I am talking about. 😉

You might consider taking your own advice. First, you might try explaining to me why swearing in school is not protected by the constitution.

 

[ForeverStudent]

Your claim of extensive research reminds me of the supposed "research"/knowledge of a well-known actor, who is very vocal against psychiatry and anti-depressants. Is that you Tom Cruise?? Your arguments parallel his quite nicely. http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3tc.htm

😛

Yeah, when I am talking seriously and raising real concerns, it's this **** that gets put on here. And you say you are adults.

 

[mustangsally65]

. My older sister got into Med school just fine and she has never been vax'd either.

I thought it was your younger sister who was at Dartmouth? 😕

 

[DarkFark]

I'm not after being called stupid and ignorant about 50 times today.

I'd like to see it all go down though! From a distance. With some drinks.

I hear that. I'd love to be a fly on the wall during one of her interviews. Well, if she gets any.

 

[PariPari]

What makes you believe that they can be eradicated unnaturally?
I have already posted links by reputable Doctors who have proven with methodical research that vaccines do more harm than good, there is also information debunking the myth of "herd immunity".

CDC & WHO have guidelines, 4 in fact which dictate that diseases fitting those specifications can be "eradicated"
1. no animal reservior
2. effective VACCINE
3. distinguishable symptoms/signs
4. (i forget & don't feel like digging through notes)

& yes, TODAY given the number of people with compromised immune systems, the CDC says that if they tried to eradicate smallpox, it wouldn't work

Please tell me one disease that's been eradicated NATURALLY. I really wanna know, b/c I've never heard of one & it'd be cool to know

 

[ForeverStudent]

You might consider taking your own advice. First, you might try explaining to me why swearing in school is not protected by the constitution.

This thread is about immunizations, can you please stay on topic?

All immunizations fall under the Freedom of Religion. So far, in 2006, the U.S. military is the only one who will deny an unvaccinated person. No one has ever won a court case with them neither.

The Pharm Companies have too much money to risk to put up such blocks in the medical community. Many Doctors are no no longer vaccinating their children and are now questioning vaccines.

There has been too many deaths to keep ignoring it.

Even if vaccines are not eradicated, it makes sense to create safer ones.

Also, Many Catholics and Christians and other religious people do not want to be injected with aborted fetal cells or animal DNA.

As future Doctors, we need to wake up and realize what kind of patients we will be having in the future, or as I have already.
I have been a Doula for over ten years, now, and I have seen firsthand the damage that has been done by vaccines.

 

[ForeverStudent]

I thought it was your younger sister who was at Dartmouth? 😕

WTF is your problem, buddy? I have two older sisters, two younger sisters and a younger brother. Not that it is any of your business.

 

[browniegirl86]

WTF is your problem, buddy? I have two older sisters, two younger sisters and a younger brother. Not that it is any of your business.

The problem is that if you seem to be inconsistent with facts such as this, members of SDN will start to suspect you are a troll and perhaps even a liar.

 

[PariPari]

This thread is about immunizations, can you please stay on topic?

All immunizations fall under the Freedom of Religion. So far, in 2006, the U.S. military is the only one who will deny an unvaccinated person. No one has ever won a court case with them neither.

The Pharm Companies have too much money to risk to put up such blocks in the medical community. Many Doctors are no no longer vaccinating their children and are now questioning vaccines.

There has been too many deaths to keep ignoring it.

Even if vaccines are not eradicated, it makes sense to create safer ones.

Also, Many Catholics and Christians and other religious people do not want to be injected with aborted fetal cells or animal DNA.

As future Doctors, we need to wake up and realize what kind of patients we will be having in the future, or as I have already.
I have been a Doula for over ten years, now, and I have seen firsthand the damage that has been done by vaccines.

I've lived in a developing country & seen 1st had the damage not having vaccines can do.
The FDA only allows fully characterized cell lines to be used to produce vaccines given the past fiasco w/ SV40 & monkey kidney cells.

What vaccine's made w/ aborted fetal cells?

OT

catholics, are christians.
Seriously if you're a doula, don't be a doctor! There need to be more doula's in the US. That's so awesome. Where do you practice?

 

[ForeverStudent]

Please tell me one disease that's been eradicated NATURALLY. I really wanna know, b/c I've never heard of one & it'd be cool to know

That is EXACTLY my point! Disease will never be eradicated, so why lie about it?

 

[Law2Doc]

Guess someone doesn't know their rights.
Try checking out Freedom of Religion, that might clue you in as to what I am talking about. 😉

Your logic is somewhat flawed. You have no protected right to become a physician under the constitution; you merely have the right not to be discriminated against because of your religious beliefs. You can refuse the shots, and the schools can refuse to admit you for this failure to meet an objective and necessary standard. Both of you are within your rights. The government and hospitals and schools have an interest in not having a "typhoid mary" walking around the wards catching and spreading disease left and right. The rights of the patients in the hospital to have the hospital take reasonable precautions not to infect them with everything that walks in the door supercedes your desire not to get a few shots.
Additionally, you would be foolish to even want to work in a hospital without some level of protection against things like tetanus, varicella, measles, pertussis, and hepatitis. You will almost certainly come in contact with these things, and can become quite ill.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Whoa, easy there.


ForeverStudent - I'm going to ask you to stop being an ass and I'm going to ask everyone else as well. You have your views and as most people on here do not agree with your thinking things are starting to get heated. You don't come across in a polite sense at time and you have already been suspiciously troll like as you seem enthralled on this topic of vaccines.

You are in the minority on this forum, in the US, and also in the medical profession. Defensive retorts won't get you anywhere.

 

[DarkFark]

This thread is about immunizations, can you please stay on topic?

All immunizations fall under the Freedom of Religion. So far, in 2006, the U.S. military is the only one who will deny an unvaccinated person. No one has ever won a court case with them neither.

The Pharm Companies have too much money to risk to put up such blocks in the medical community. Many Doctors are no no longer vaccinating their children and are now questioning vaccines.

There has been too many deaths to keep ignoring it.

Even if vaccines are not eradicated, it makes sense to create safer ones.

Also, Many Catholics and Christians and other religious people do not want to be injected with aborted fetal cells or animal DNA.

As future Doctors, we need to wake up and realize what kind of patients we will be having in the future, or as I have already.
I have been a Doula for over ten years, now, and I have seen firsthand the damage that has been done by vaccines.

Stop citing anecdotal evidence. If you're challenging the established doctirne, then the burden of proof is on you, and anecdotes dont cut it. Those earlier CDC statistics are not convincing- A 0.01% risk of physical harm? you need to show that the alternative is less risky.

My only point in bringing up freedom of speech was to illustate that educational institutions can require their students to do things that may require them to WAIVE their first amendment rights, or face expulsion. It's a choice, and because it's a free country, you have the choice, but you can't have both unless the school allows it.

 

[ForeverStudent]

catholics, are christians.
Seriously if you're a doula, don't be a doctor! There need to be more doula's in the US. That's so awesome. Where do you practice?

Sorry, I am not of that religion, excuse my ignorance.

As for my Doula work, it has taken me just about everywhere. And, no, I had no problem traveling.

right now, I am staying in MN, attending U of M and working, working, working, and I have a 14 month old....so, it's been fun. 😴
Thank goodness my older children live with the Grandparents or I would not be able to make it.