Importance of Shadowing

[NMOI]

I agree with many of the above posters. You don't need to shadow. But if you don't you better have some ironclad way of convincing the admissions comittee that you truly know what you are getting into. If it looks like you have not put much thought into your career choice it will hurt your application.

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[circulus vitios]

I think I can appreciate someone's worthiness and likelyhood of success in medicine from their shadowing/volunteering/ECs than their GPA. You can explain having a ****ty GPA, you can't explain being a ****ty person.

Sure I can. I have more important things to do than drive 30 minutes each way to a hospital, so I can stock shelves and push around carts of food for free, for the sole purpose of appeasing a medical school admissions committee.

 

[kpcrew]

Sure I can. I have more important things to do than drive 30 minutes each way to a hospital, so I can stock shelves and push around carts of food for free, for the sole purpose of appeasing a medical school admissions committee.

So true. Most volunteering experiences are crap.

 

[mvenus929]

That's no different than anyone else already in the system. We are talking about getting into the system and the US is the only country in the world where we have a bunch of garbage BS for students to do before they can get into the system.

Shadowing/volunteering/ECs in general are just fluff.

But US medical students are far, far more likely to get a residency slot in the US than those who attended foreign medical schools. And as the number of US medical graduates increases, fewer of those graduates from other schools will be accepted to US residency slots.

It's a lot easier to get into a Caribbean medical school than a US one, but that doesn't mean that you'll end up as a practicing physician (at least, not in the US).

Also, I'm pretty sure other countries have more hoops to jump through in the 'residency' process. I seem to remember a discussion where those from the UK were complaining because it took much, much longer to get to the attending level than in the US, and many, many of those graduates don't land a residency (equivalent) in the first place (whereas something like 97% of US medical seniors do).

 

[circulus vitios]

But US medical students are far, far more likely to get a residency slot in the US than those who attended foreign medical schools. And as the number of US medical graduates increases, fewer of those graduates from other schools will be accepted to US residency slots.

It's a lot easier to get into a Caribbean medical school than a US one, but that doesn't mean that you'll end up as a practicing physician (at least, not in the US).

Also, I'm pretty sure other countries have more hoops to jump through in the 'residency' process. I seem to remember a discussion where those from the UK were complaining because it took much, much longer to get to the attending level than in the US, and many, many of those graduates don't land a residency (equivalent) in the first place (whereas something like 97% of US medical seniors do).

His point was: most ECs are a pointless waste of time. Other countries train successful physicians without all of the EC crap. Why are we so special and what objectively quantifiable purposes do ECs serve?

 

[mimelim]

Sure I can. I have more important things to do than drive 30 minutes each way to a hospital, so I can stock shelves and push around carts of food for free, for the sole purpose of appeasing a medical school admissions committee.

What you said has nothing to do with what I said. I do not know why you quoted me.

If you think your ECs aren't worth driving 30 minutes to, then you shouldn't be doing them. Just don't expect me to believe reading your application that there simply wasn't anything worthwhile to do with your time outside of studying within driving distance. One should never be doing ECs to impress people. You should be doing them 1) because you enjoy them, 2) because they help you acquire skills that sitting in a room studying all day doesn't. If you have to 'try' on your ECs, you are doing something wrong.

 

[LizzyM]

His point was: most ECs are a pointless waste of time. Other countries train successful physicians without all of the EC crap. Why are we so special and what objectively quantifiable purposes do ECs serve?

The US has a different philosophy of education than found in other countries. With few exceptions, we believe in a broad, liberal education after high school followed by professional education and hands-on training. In contrast, many other countries place students in a longer, more focused professional education right out of high school. One advantage our system has is that it allows students who are a bit slower in deciding which path to take to still pursue medical education.

Experiences should be the activities that you do to grow academically, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. It should be the things you do that help you to remain physically fit and develop physical skills that you will use throughout your life. Your experiences in college should ignite your passon in something bigger than yourself whether it is research, public service, or entrepreneurship. This is a time to build existing skills and learn new skills so that you have something at the end of the day that both calms you down and invigorates you. It might be art or music, knitting or carpentry, fishing or motorcycle repair.

Finally, unlike many countries where the most academically talented are chosen for free or very inexpensive medical education, the US system expects students and their families* to pay thousands of dollars (in some cases, hundreds of thousands) for medical education. Therefore, it is imperative that prospective students test their interest in medicine and make an informed decision about this career path before they plunge into an expensive program that aims to graduate 100% of those who matriculate. (In some countires, a large proportion of medical students are weeded out and dismissed for failing to meet academic standards.)


*their parents and grandparents may help with tuition now and, in many cases, their future families will sacrifice to pay back loans

 

[circulus vitios]

What you said has nothing to do with what I said. I do not know why you quoted me.

If you think your ECs aren't worth driving 30 minutes to, then you shouldn't be doing them. Just don't expect me to believe reading your application that there simply wasn't anything worthwhile to do with your time outside of studying within driving distance. One should never be doing ECs to impress people. You should be doing them 1) because you enjoy them, 2) because they help you acquire skills that sitting in a room studying all day doesn't. If you have to 'try' on your ECs, you are doing something wrong.

The type of ECs I enjoy are not appropriate for a medical school application. Sorry, I don't enjoy ladling soup for hobos, tutoring disadvantaged children, or stocking shelves in an ER stock room. I'm not looking into a career as a homeless shelter manager, a teacher, or an orderly. The only skill I'm acquiring by doing typical ECs is a skill for tolerating bull****.

 

[mimelim]

The type of ECs I enjoy are not appropriate for a medical school application. Sorry, I don't enjoy ladling soup for hobos, tutoring disadvantaged children, or stocking shelves in an ER stock room. I'm not looking into a career as a homeless shelter manager, a teacher, or an orderly. The only skill I'm acquiring by doing typical ECs is a skill for tolerating bull****.

You know that if something sounds stupid, it usually is. Working at a homeless shelter or doing manual labor is not impressive to adcoms. It is a waste of time and they know it. Don't insult their intelligence.

Experiences should be the activities that you do to grow academically, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. It should be the things you do that help you to remain physically fit and develop physical skills that you will use throughout your life. Your experiences in college should ignite your passon in something bigger than yourself whether it is research, public service, or entrepreneurship. This is a time to build existing skills and learn new skills so that you have something at the end of the day that both calms you down and invigorates you. It might be art or music, knitting or carpentry, fishing or motorcycle repair.

THOSE are experiences. Stop trying to fill an application and start actually improving yourself and preparing yourself to survive medical school and being a good doctor.

 

[moothecow]

THOSE are experiences. Stop trying to fill an application and start actually improving yourself and preparing yourself to survive medical school and being a good doctor.

That description made me remember so many things from the volunteering I've done that it literally brought me to tears. I agree-emotional and mental development or any kind of maturing process is a real experience. Seeing someone go through a terrible ordeal like losing a family member or undergoing a risky procedure really messes with your mind in the best of ways. It makes you reevaluate your life and gives you perspective. For me, it made me really passionate and it gave me a reason for all this craziness. Idk, I really don't find shadowing in clinics useless or bull****. There's so much more to medicine than just a career or a source of income.

Anyway that's my premed 2 cents.

 

[circulus vitios]

You know that if something sounds stupid, it usually is. Working at a homeless shelter or doing manual labor is not impressive to adcoms. It is a waste of time and they know it. Don't insult their intelligence.



THOSE are experiences. Stop trying to fill an application and start actually improving yourself and preparing yourself to survive medical school and being a good doctor.

Hanging out with friends, drinking, listening to music, playing videogames, etc. aren't appropriate for a medical school application. Sorry bro, I, and most other boring and ordinary people, don't buy into the "personal growth" angle.

 

[mimelim]

Hanging out with friends, drinking, listening to music, playing videogames, etc. aren't appropriate for a medical school application. Sorry bro, I, and most other boring and ordinary people, don't buy into the "personal growth" angle.

Yes, all of the ECs you listed are pure recreation and of little value. If that is all you do with your time, and don't think broadening your horizons is a good idea, then you are likely ill suited for the field of medicine. Part of being a physician is being a life long learner.

There are enough interesting applicants to fill all of the spots in US medical schools. If you really see yourself as that boring, it is hard to imagine others seeing you any different. I certainly wouldn't want to waste my institutions time and resources training someone who is a) unteachable and b) highly unlikely to be a productive physician.

 

[circulus vitios]

Yes, all of the ECs you listed are pure recreation and of little value. If that is all you do with your time, and don't think broadening your horizons is a good idea, then you are likely ill suited for the field of medicine. Part of being a physician is being a life long learner.

There are enough interesting applicants to fill all of the spots in US medical schools. If you really see yourself as that boring, it is hard to imagine others seeing you any different. I certainly wouldn't want to waste my institutions time and resources training someone who is a) unteachable and b) highly unlikely to be a productive physician.

I'm unteachable because I decry idiotic extracurricular activities? I'm unlikely to be a productive physician because I refuse to jump through hoops to impress you?

 

[LizzyM]

I'm unteachable because I decry idiotic extracurricular activities? I'm unlikely to be a productive physician because I refuse to jump through hoops to impress you?

There are twice as many applicants in the US as there are seats. You tell me who calls the tune.

We have our pick and we don't look for boring and ordinary people and we aren't forced to settle for them either.

If you aren't willing to do whatever it takes (within the bounds of what's legal and ethical) to get into medical school, maybe you just don't want it badly enough.

 

[mimelim]

I'm unteachable because I decry idiotic extracurricular activities? I'm unlikely to be a productive physician because I refuse to jump through hoops to impress you?

I don't get it. Do you even read my posts when you quote them?

I want my future colleagues to care about more than just drinking and playing video games. I'm sorry that you see research, shadowing, volunteering, travel, hobbies, sports to be "idiotic extracurricular activities". Who is saying anything about jumping through hoops? I don't really think it is a hoop that medical schools are looking for people who are interested in more than hanging out with their friends in their free time. If you seriously have zero interest in things outside of the hanging with friends drinking and playing video games, then yes, it is unlikely that you are the most attractive candidate for a medical school to take.

No point in really arguing this, we simply have different values and different thoughts on who is deserving of a medical education. If you really are that boring and you really want to go to medical school for whatever reason, then fake it, but apparently as LizzyM points out, you don't even want to be bothered with either.

 

[circulus vitios]

I don't get it. Do you even read my posts when you quote them?

I want my future colleagues to care about more than just drinking and playing video games. I'm sorry that you see research, shadowing, volunteering, travel, hobbies, sports to be "idiotic extracurricular activities". Who is saying anything about jumping through hoops? I don't really think it is a hoop that medical schools are looking for people who are interested in more than hanging out with their friends in their free time. If you seriously have zero interest in things outside of the hanging with friends drinking and playing video games, then yes, it is unlikely that you are the most attractive candidate for a medical school to take.

No point in really arguing this, we simply have different values and different thoughts on who is deserving of a medical education. If you really are that boring and you really want to go to medical school for whatever reason, then fake it, but apparently as LizzyM points out, you don't even want to be bothered with either.

Bud, travel and "interesting" hobbies cost money. Us po' college folks ain't got the money for it. Weekends are for work. I put in 50-60 hour a week every summer doing manual labor. That money goes toward school and this application process that just loves to drain bank accounts. As much as I would love to try unicycle fire dancing or have my daddy bankroll the legal fees necessary to start a nonprofit, it's just not happening. Due to my god-awful location, I'm relegated to typical volunteering: handing out refreshments at blood drives and being an unpaid slave at a hospital. I'm not a science major so research isn't happening. You're so quick to judge the lives of those who don't have the same opportunities as you.

 

[music2doc]

I'm unteachable because I decry idiotic extracurricular activities? I'm unlikely to be a productive physician because I refuse to jump through hoops to impress you?

CV...why is it looked at as "jumping through hoops"? Why not look at it as an opportunity? Honestly, you're going to have a lot of these things forced upon you as a med student. You may as well start developing some interests now. Become an interesting person. Seek out new experiences. Achieve something beyond academics.

There are twice as many applicants in the US as there are seats. You tell me who calls the tune.

We have our pick and we don't look for boring and ordinary people and we aren't forced to settle for them either.

If you aren't willing to do whatever it takes (within the bounds of what's legal and ethical) to get into medical school, maybe you just don't want it badly enough.

Well said. I've been quite impressed with many of the accomplishments of my classmates. Before I got here, I tended to think I had accomplished a lot because by comparison to many fellow premeds I had, but now that I am amongst other medical students, they are truly a few notches up. Many of them did things as college students that I only dreamed of doing. If you're not willing to put the time into something you're passionate about, what makes you worth an adcom's time?

I don't get it. Do you even read my posts when you quote them?

I want my future colleagues to care about more than just drinking and playing video games. I'm sorry that you see research, shadowing, volunteering, travel, hobbies, sports to be "idiotic extracurricular activities". Who is saying anything about jumping through hoops? I don't really think it is a hoop that medical schools are looking for people who are interested in more than hanging out with their friends in their free time. If you seriously have zero interest in things outside of the hanging with friends drinking and playing video games, then yes, it is unlikely that you are the most attractive candidate for a medical school to take.

No point in really arguing this, we simply have different values and different thoughts on who is deserving of a medical education. If you really are that boring and you really want to go to medical school for whatever reason, then fake it, but apparently as LizzyM points out, you don't even want to be bothered with either.

The attitude you reference has always bothered me and I can say that few of my classmates seem to take this approach to medical school. They are all extremely intelligent and I have been repeatedly impressed by their involvement in things and in the community. CV, I'd suggest not viewing ECs as hoops to jump through but as opportunities.

 

[mimelim]

Bud, travel and "interesting" hobbies cost money. Us po' college folks ain't got the money for it. Weekends are for work. I put in 50-60 hour a week every summer doing manual labor. That money goes toward school and this application process that just loves to drain bank accounts. As much as I would love to try unicycle fire dancing or have my daddy bankroll the legal fees necessary to start a nonprofit, it's just not happening. Due to my god-awful location, I'm relegated to typical volunteering: handing out refreshments at blood drives and being an unpaid slave at a hospital. I'm not a science major so research isn't happening. You're so quick to judge the lives of those who don't have the same opportunities as you.

You obviously came from such a hugely disadvantaged background. Oh wait, no you didn't. You just would rather hang out with friends, drink and play video games than do what other pre-meds do with their time. Which is fine. Just don't be angry when they get into medical school. ECs do not require money. They require interest. All I see is a pre-med whining about how everything is stacked against them and how everything is the rest of the world's fault and they aren't responsible for where they are right now.

I'm done with this troll. Life is not fair. No application process is perfect. But you are delusional if you really think everything is outside of your control.

 

[circulus vitios]

You obviously came from such a hugely disadvantaged background. Oh wait, no you didn't. You just would rather hang out with friends, drink and play video games than do what other pre-meds do with their time. Which is fine. Just don't be angry when they get into medical school. ECs do not require money. They require interest. All I see is a pre-med whining about how everything is stacked against them and how everything is the rest of the world's fault and they aren't responsible for where they are right now.

I'm done with this troll. Life is not fair. No application process is perfect. But you are delusional if you really think everything is outside of your control.

I didn't say that. I make the best of a terrible situation by forcing myself to do a few ECs that I hate, for the purposes of padding my application.

 

[Freesia88]

Sure I can. I have more important things to do than drive 30 minutes each way to a hospital, so I can stock shelves and push around carts of food for free, for the sole purpose of appeasing a medical school admissions committee.

The type of ECs I enjoy are not appropriate for a medical school application. Sorry, I don't enjoy ladling soup for hobos, tutoring disadvantaged children, or stocking shelves in an ER stock room. I'm not looking into a career as a homeless shelter manager, a teacher, or an orderly. The only skill I'm acquiring by doing typical ECs is a skill for tolerating bull****.[/QUOTE]


Weird. You see pointless, I see service... even when it is inconvenient, boring and unrewarding. I may be wrong here but being a doctor is not always going to be about doing great and awesome things and living like a rockstar while you're at it.

From the stories I have read here from medical students and residents, there is are a lot of things which will be expected of you as a medical student and a resident etc which you would rather not do, which will be boring, annoying, unrewarding, inconvenient and all those things EC's seem to be to you right now. So are you going to tell your superiors to **** off and go do your own thing? Or are you going to go through all of your medical training doing things you would rather not be doing? The world we live in currently requires a pretty high tolerance for bull**** anyway...

Why do you even want to go into medicine? I'm a little confused CV...

 

[music2doc]

I didn't say that. I make the best of a terrible situation by forcing myself to do a few ECs that I hate, for the purposes of padding my application.

This tells me you would be a p*ss poor fit where I attend. I cannot speak for other schools but I know of at least 4 other schools with similar programs that would find your attitude very concerning. These activities don't end when you get to medical school. There is a strong recommendation from the AAMC right now that schools require community service of medical students and at least in my school's interpretation of that recommendation, community service is in addition to clinical care and should be beyond simple direct care (e.g., public health related, homeless clinics, tutoring disadvantaged youth, etc.).

As for the disadvantaged argument, you sound like you had somewhat of a disadvantaged life, but it really doesn't sound THAT bad. I've met people who achieved more than I have with far less than you had. One girl I know was orphaned in junior high when her mother died of breast cancer. Her father is a drug addict and left when she was a little girl. She worked hard anyway and managed to get into a top-20 UG with a full-ride scholarship and worked anyway (30+ hrs/wk) to build up some money for when school ended. She has been a community leader throughout UG, as well as having become involved in breast cancer research in UG. She applied for and was granted a scholarship to take an EMT class (in addition to her college scholarship) and proceeded to gain clinical experience by volunteering in a women's clinic in addition to volunteering at a homeless shelter. Her reputation at her college is as one of the most community-involved students on campus. So what did you do with your disadvantaged opportunities?

 

[circulus vitios]

The type of ECs I enjoy are not appropriate for a medical school application. Sorry, I don't enjoy ladling soup for hobos, tutoring disadvantaged children, or stocking shelves in an ER stock room. I'm not looking into a career as a homeless shelter manager, a teacher, or an orderly. The only skill I'm acquiring by doing typical ECs is a skill for tolerating bull****.[/QUOTE]


Weird. You see pointless, I see service... even when it is inconvenient, boring and unrewarding. I may be wrong here but being a doctor is not always going to be about doing great and awesome things and living like a rockstar while you're at it.

From the stories I have read here from medical students and residents, there is are a lot of things which will be expected of you as a medical student and a resident etc which you would rather not do, which will be boring, annoying, unrewarding, inconvenient and all those things EC's seem to be to you right now. So are you going to tell your superiors to **** off and go do your own thing? Or are you going to go through all of your medical training doing things you would rather not be doing? The world we live in currently requires a pretty high tolerance for bull**** anyway...

Why do you even want to go into medicine? I'm a little confused CV...

I have an unromanticized view of medicine. I realize most of my time will be spent convincing diabetic pigs not to eat themselves to death; diplomatically forcing junkies out of the hospital; completing paperwork in triplicate form; etc. It doesn't bother me.

I've dealt with idiotic superiors before, people whose stupidity and negligence has put me in (physical) danger. I don't bitch and whine about. I take pride in how hard I work, no matter how much I hate the job and my coworkers. I draw the line at unpaid work e.g. volunteering for an admissions committee.

I want to go into medicine because I like science and I want a stable and high-paying career, something that will put me solidly in the upper-middle class.

 

[circulus vitios]

This tells me you would be a p*ss poor fit where I attend. I cannot speak for other schools but I know of at least 4 other schools with similar programs that would find your attitude very concerning. These activities don't end when you get to medical school. There is a strong recommendation from the AAMC right now that schools require community service of medical students and at least in my school's interpretation of that recommendation, community service is in addition to clinical care and should be beyond simple direct care (e.g., public health related, homeless clinics, tutoring disadvantaged youth, etc.).

As for the disadvantaged argument, you sound like you had somewhat of a disadvantaged life, but it really doesn't sound THAT bad. I've met people who achieved more than I have with far less than you had. One girl I know was orphaned in junior high when her mother died of breast cancer. Her father is a drug addict and left when she was a little girl. She worked hard anyway and managed to get into a top-20 UG with a full-ride scholarship and worked anyway (30+ hrs/wk) to build up some money for when school ended. She has been a community leader throughout UG, as well as having become involved in breast cancer research in UG. She applied for and was granted a scholarship to take an EMT class (in addition to her college scholarship) and proceeded to gain clinical experience by volunteering in a women's clinic in addition to volunteering at a homeless shelter. Her reputation at her college is as one of the most community-involved students on campus. So what did you do with your disadvantaged opportunities?

That's great, but it sounds like she lives in an urban area. There are no homeless shelters, EMT classes, research facilities, etc. where I live. Believe me, I've looked for the latter. My school is a bottom-ranking public school with a practically non-existent research budget. I planned on asking a professor if I could help him with research -- if he was even doing research, which I doubt considering his last paper was published 6 years ago -- but his temporary 1 year contract expired before I could ask. I lacked the skill, knowledge, and connections to do a SURF program.

 

[notbobtrustme]

There are twice as many applicants in the US as there are seats. You tell me who calls the tune.

We have our pick and we don't look for boring and ordinary people and we aren't forced to settle for them either.

If you aren't willing to do whatever it takes (within the bounds of what's legal and ethical) to get into medical school, maybe you just don't want it badly enough.

All we are asking for is to be real about it. Pre-meds know that volunteering/shadowing/soup kitchens aren't fulfilling activities, they are checkboxes for adcoms to see. I didn't volunteer at an ER because I wanted to. I volunteered because it's a necessary requirement to get admitted to medical school. I definitely had the numbers with a 3.7 GPA and a 37T MCAT. That gets my application through the door, but everyone still needs to play the game.

Every pre-med plays up their shadowing/volunteering experience. What I really did vs what I said I did are two entirely different things. What I said in my EC description was that I was involved in aspects of ER care delivery. What I really did was pull up a chair in the corner and read Warhammer 40k books. What I said when I shadowed was I learned how a physician interacts with his team and other fluffy crap like that. What I really did was shadow for a day, got the gist of it, and bull****ted the rest. If nothing else, pre-meds are the best bull****ters out there. A couple blogs + medical novel is all you really need to weave a convincing story to interviewers.

Don't patronize us with that "personal growth BS". In my years as an undergraduate with pre-med colleagues and graduate student observing rotating pre-meds, I've never met one pre-med who truly enjoyed checking the boxes. They are realistic and cynical about the entire process. "Put my hours in, get my recs, and don't look back after applying" I can't count how many students I've seen quit the lab after putting their application into AMCAS. 1 in 10 are truly interested in research, the rest just need that checkbox ticked.

I'm just being real about it. When you see a game, you expect it to get played. Only a few people will truly care about what the game is trying to do. The rest see it for what it really is, a bunch of stupid hoops to jump through to impress the judges. It's exactly like a dog show. The dog doesn't give a **** about jumping through hoops or leaping hurdles, he just wants that treat at the end. This is exactly the same situation for medical school admission. There are a bunch of hoops to jump through to impress the judges (aka adcoms). Pretending it's anything more than that is simply patronizing.

 

[Freesia88]

I have an unromanticized view of medicine. I realize most of my time will be spent convincing diabetic pigs not to eat themselves to death; diplomatically forcing junkies out of the hospital; completing paperwork in triplicate form; etc. It doesn't bother me.

I've dealt with idiotic superiors before, people whose stupidity and negligence has put me in (physical) danger. I don't bitch and whine about. I take pride in how hard I work, no matter how much I hate the job and my coworkers. I draw the line at unpaid work e.g. volunteering for an admissions committee.

I want to go into medicine because I like science and I want a stable and high-paying career, something that will put me solidly in the upper-middle class.

That's great, but it sounds like she lives in an urban area. There are no homeless shelters, EMT classes, research facilities, etc. where I live. Believe me, I've looked for the latter. My school is a bottom-ranking public school with a practically non-existent research budget. I planned on asking a professor if I could help him with research -- if he was even doing research, which I doubt considering his last paper was published 6 years ago -- but his temporary 1 year contract expired before I could ask. I lacked the skill, knowledge, and connections to do a SURF program.

Sounds like you've had and are still having a rough time of it and you have every right to be angry at the unfairness of life. I am sorry things are this way for you. You also sound like a person determined to have a better future for yourself and I commend you for that.

However, and this is just my 2 cents, I believe firmly that practicing medicine is about service first and foremost and this service needs to be laced with high doses of empathy. Those diabetic pigs and junkies you refer to might be in that situation due to circumstances beyond their control and they deserve your respect as human beings with their own stories.

A love of science and a desire for financial stablity are not bad reasons to want to practise medicine, but they are not going to keep you going when you are faced with the dregs of humanity and you have to find a way to stay positive and optimistic.

I wish you the best either way.

 

[music2doc]

That's great, but it sounds like she lives in an urban area. There are no homeless shelters, EMT classes, research facilities, etc. where I live. Believe me, I've looked for the latter. My school is a bottom-ranking public school with a practically non-existent research budget. I planned on asking a professor if I could help him with research -- if he was even doing research, which I doubt considering his last paper was published 6 years ago -- but his temporary 1 year contract expired before I could ask. I lacked the skill, knowledge, and connections to do a SURF program.

She actually lives in a small town about 30-45 miles from two large urban centers with little access but she did what she could to get into a school in an urban area. You have to take advantage of what is there. Sure, it may not be much but you do what you can. I built an entire pre-med program for myself because the school I went to for a post-bacc lacked one. It now serves hundreds of students each year. You don't need a PI with funding. You can do research on your own with a simple advisor. Put some effort in. It's all about distance traveled, not simple achievements.

 

[circulus vitios]

She actually lives in a small town about 30-45 miles from two large urban centers with little access but she did what she could to get into a school in an urban area. You have to take advantage of what is there. Sure, it may not be much but you do what you can. I built an entire pre-med program for myself because the school I went to for a post-bacc lacked one. It now serves hundreds of students each year. You don't need a PI with funding. You can do research on your own with a simple advisor. Put some effort in. It's all about distance traveled, not simple achievements.

I built my own pre-med program, too. My school has no type of pre-health adviser or committee. Everything I've found and done have been on my own.

When I say research is practically non-existent, I mean it. My school doesn't have research groups. Five professors, 4 of whom are zoologists, make up the biology department. As far as I know, the "research lab" is a single 300 square-foot lab. Undergraduate research is practically non-existent. When research is available, it's reserved for biology majors, which I am not.

Research is one of the few ECs that I think I would have enjoyed. It's just not possible at my school. A student at even the crappiest of Big State U's has it so much easier in regards to research. Unfortunately, I can't afford going to a more expensive school.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

I recognize that some MSTP applicants may be playing the admissions committe by coming in with great research experience (what gets you in the door) with every intention of trading a few years in the lab for a free ride followed by a career in clinical medicine (Profit!).

I've been hard line to require both clinical exposure and research of the MSTP candidates.

I don't know what the answer is with regard to creating physician-scientists but what we are doing isn't working well. Likewise, many PhD grads are jumping ship and seeking careers away from the bench. Are our methods of research funding counter-productive? I don't have any answers.

Then we don't travel in the same circles because I hear a lot of complaining in that regard. Interesting observation from the leaders of the MSTP program: many of the students who leave research behind and do "just medicine" are those who had not shadowed or volunteered before coming to medical school; they got in on the strength of their research experiences alone. But, when they did their clinical rotations, they found that they loved clinical care so much that they wanted to do only that and not research. Early exposure to clinical care might result in fewer MSTP students who don't go on to careers as physicians-scientists.

I know these posts are 5 months old, but this thread is still going and LizzyM posted yesterday so I figure it's not necro'ing to reply to these posts.

Anyway, granted I'm not in med/grad school yet, but I'd imagine the reason why there's so much attrition in MD/PhD programs is because of the apocalyptic landscape of modern science. I think most people going into PhD and MD/PhD programs are aware of the issues of low pay and scarcity of tenured positions, and many are also aware that it's hard to get funding. However, I think that many (if not most) of them are also greatly underestimating the severity of these problems going in, especially the funding situation.

It's one thing to accept a low paying profession with bad job prospects if you can at least succeed as long as you try hard enough/are good enough. It's something else entirely to find out that even if you get your coveted tenure track job that you may still never be able to do research due to the fact that the current success rate for R01's is something like 4-9%. And as if that wasn't bad enough, many universities require faculty to obtain at least R01 in order to be considered for tenure promotion. And if you don't get that R01 within a certain time period of arriving (which is getting more and more impossible as the NIH goes year after year without a budget increase) then you kicked off the tenure track. Even if you don't get kicked off, more and more universities are putting clauses into their professors' job contracts that stipulates the professor has to pay their own salary with grants, which means no grants = no salary.

So it's really not surprising that students see all of this, see medicine with it's extremely good job security and high pay, know that they're already on track to get an MD anyway, and say "**** this" and go MD-only. Even for the students who are committed to research, some are always going to be unlucky enough to get stuck with a project that never goes anywhere, a PI/mentor who dies in a freak accident/illness or changes universities, or anything else that causes their PhD training to take much longer than usual. In that case, combined with everything else above, you'd have to have a superhuman commitment to research to not just cut your losses and change your career plans from "physician-scientist" to "physician".

So I don't really think there's anything MSTPs or the NIH can do to lessen the attrition rates since they're do mostly to the chronic lack of research funding and inherent problems in PhD training. Really the only thing I could think of would be to actually favor "boring" candidates in MD/PhD admissions since the introvert with a laser focus on science is less likely to be bothered by the time demands and setbacks inherent in research training and careers than the social butterfly with several hobbies/interests completely unrelated to science or medicine. But even then I hardly think you'd see anything resembling a large decrease in the attrition rates of MSTP and PhD programs.

 

[notbobtrustme]

I know these posts are 5 months old, but this thread is still going and LizzyM posted yesterday so I figure it's not necro'ing to reply to these posts.

Anyway, granted I'm not in med/grad school yet, but I'd imagine the reason why there's so much attrition in MD/PhD programs is because of the apocalyptic landscape of modern science. I think most people going into PhD and MD/PhD programs are aware of the issues of low pay and scarcity of tenured positions, and many are also aware that it's hard to get funding. However, I think that many (if not most) of them are also greatly underestimating the severity of these problems going in, especially the funding situation.

It's one thing to accept a low paying profession with bad job prospects if you can at least succeed as long as you try hard enough/are good enough. It's something else entirely to find out that even if you get your coveted tenure track job that you may still never be able to do research due to the fact that the current success rate for R01's is something like 4-9%. And as if that wasn't bad enough, many universities require faculty to obtain at least R01 in order to be considered for tenure promotion. And if you don't get that R01 within a certain time period of arriving (which is getting more and more impossible as the NIH goes year after year without a budget increase) then you kicked off the tenure track. Even if you don't get kicked off, more and more universities are putting clauses into their professors' job contracts that stipulates the professor has to pay their own salary with grants, which means no grants = no salary.

So it's really not surprising that students see all of this, see medicine with it's extremely good job security and high pay, know that they're already on track to get an MD anyway, and say "**** this" and go MD-only. Even for the students who are committed to research, some are always going to be unlucky enough to get stuck with a project that never goes anywhere, a PI/mentor who dies in a freak accident/illness or changes universities, or anything else that causes their PhD training to take much longer than usual. In that case, combined with everything else above, you'd have to have a superhuman commitment to research to not just cut your losses and change your career plans from "physician-scientist" to "physician".

So I don't really think there's anything MSTPs or the NIH can do to lessen the attrition rates since they're do mostly to the chronic lack of research funding and inherent problems in PhD training. Really the only thing I could think of would be to actually favor "boring" candidates in MD/PhD admissions since the introvert with a laser focus on science is less likely to be bothered by the time demands and setbacks inherent in research training and careers than the social butterfly with several hobbies/interests completely unrelated to science or medicine. But even then I hardly think you'd see anything resembling a large decrease in the attrition rates of MSTP and PhD programs.

yep, even highly successful post-docs are relegated to third tier research institutions. The thing that made me quit my PhD program was this one presenter who had something like 50 publications, many of them in good journals like Cell and Immunology had to fight tooth and nail for a tenure-track at an unknown research institute. His story was frightening and made me say **** that.

 

[music2doc]

I built my own pre-med program, too. My school has no type of pre-health adviser or committee. Everything I've found and done have been on my own.

When I say research is practically non-existent, I mean it. My school doesn't have research groups. Five professors, 4 of whom are zoologists, make up the biology department. As far as I know, the "research lab" is a single 300 square-foot lab. Undergraduate research is practically non-existent. When research is available, it's reserved for biology majors, which I am not.

Research is one of the few ECs that I think I would have enjoyed. It's just not possible at my school. A student at even the crappiest of Big State U's has it so much easier in regards to research. Unfortunately, I can't afford going to a more expensive school.

Then go start a research program. You seem very detail-oriented and narrow-focused. Open your field of vision a bit. UG research can only be nonexistent in the sense that there is no one doing it. My first project wasn't funded and it didn't have a PI when I started it. Instead, I began the project based upon what I'd learned in a research methods course. I found a few interested students and designed the study. Later, a PI with whom I had worked as a TA picked my project up into her lab. WIthin a couple of months, we had been accepted to multiple conferences, included presenting at the top research conference in the country for that major field. The paper for this project is in the review process for publication. It wasn't bench research but was more akin to clinical research and utilized a hybrid randomized clinical trial/field trial design. I get that you're in a tough spot, but it seems you are giving up instead of simply pushing harder. Instead of being bitter and wasting your time arguing with the med school admissions system or trying to "game" it, why not spend that time growing and becoming something more. Anything less isn't going to cut it.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

I built my own pre-med program, too. My school has no type of pre-health adviser or committee. Everything I've found and done have been on my own.

When I say research is practically non-existent, I mean it. My school doesn't have research groups. Five professors, 4 of whom are zoologists, make up the biology department. As far as I know, the "research lab" is a single 300 square-foot lab. Undergraduate research is practically non-existent. When research is available, it's reserved for biology majors, which I am not.

Research is one of the few ECs that I think I would have enjoyed. It's just not possible at my school. A student at even the crappiest of Big State U's has it so much easier in regards to research. Unfortunately, I can't afford going to a more expensive school.

That's exactly what summer research programs are for. They're hard to get into, but at the same time if you don't have what it takes to get accepted into a SURF every year then you probably don't have what it takes to get accepted into med school either.

Anyway, briefly reading this thread I can't tell if all this arguing is over research, clinical experience, and shadowing being pointless, or over stuff like hobbies and interests being pointless. If it's the latter then I agree; I really struggle to see how playing an instrument or a sport makes you a better doctor. If we're talking about the former though, then I absolutely disagree. Research and clinical experience are important, and not just for getting into medical school. I wouldn't even consider those things to be what makes an "interesting" candidate, that's just what you should have if you want to be seriously considered. Just like how no company is going to consider you for employment just because you got good grades in college but did nothing else, no med school is going to consider you for acceptance just because you got good grades in college but nothing else. You want to be a financial analyst, you need to have internship experience with a finance company. You want to be a scientist, you need research experience. You want to be a doctor, you need clinical and shadowing experience. Simple.

 

[circulus vitios]

That's exactly what summer research programs are for. They're hard to get into, but at the same time if you don't have what it takes to get accepted into a SURF every year then you probably don't have what it takes to get accepted into med school either.

...

Just like how no company is going to consider you for employment just because you got good grades in college but did nothing else, no med school is going to consider you for acceptance just because you got good grades in college but nothing else. You want to be a financial analyst, you need to have internship experience with a finance company. You want to be a scientist, you need research experience. You want to be a doctor, you need clinical and shadowing experience. Simple.

Due to unavoidable scheduling conflicts, I didn't have the necessary coursework to do a biology SURF until my senior year. I'm not good at math and I have no interest in math research, so I didn't apply to math REUs.

The majority of business internships are paid positions that require nothing other than current college enrollment. Clinical volunteering is unpaid. Clinical jobs are, at least where I live, difficult to get and often require preexisting specialized training. It's not a fair comparison, at all.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

Due to unavoidable scheduling conflicts, I didn't have the necessary coursework to do a biology SURF until my senior year. I'm not good at math and I have no interest in math research, so I didn't apply to math REUs.

The majority of business internships are paid positions that require nothing other than current college enrollment. Clinical volunteering is unpaid. Clinical jobs are, at least where I live, difficult to get and often require preexisting specialized training. It's not a fair comparison, at all.

Business internships are competitive. Maybe the crappy ones aren't, but if you're trying to get an internship at a respectable corporation you're going to need more than just "I'm enrolled in college".

It is a fair comparison too. It's rare for a person to get a business job out of college without prior internship experience, just like it's rare for a person to get into med school without clinical or research experience. In both cases you need something on your CV that proves you know what you're doing. While no one expects you to be capable of treating a patient before you enter med school, they do expect you to know what you're getting into.

 

[mvenus929]

The type of ECs I enjoy are not appropriate for a medical school application. Sorry, I don't enjoy ladling soup for hobos, tutoring disadvantaged children, or stocking shelves in an ER stock room. I'm not looking into a career as a homeless shelter manager, a teacher, or an orderly. The only skill I'm acquiring by doing typical ECs is a skill for tolerating bull****.

This attitude frustrates me. If you don't want to do 'typical' ECs, then DON'T. You don't have to do ER volunteering, or ANY clinical volunteering. Be a big sibling, hand out hot dogs at a racetrack, participate in Sunday school... it doesn't matter, as long as you do SOMETHING outside of school. I was a Mary Kay consultant for a year or two. That did absolutely nothing for my medical education, but it did teach me how to present myself, how to talk to people I had never met before, and how to work on a team. Those are skills that will help me throughout my life, even if I never work in sales ever again.

ECs aren't about checking off a box. They're about exploring your interests, and growing as a person.

Bud, travel and "interesting" hobbies cost money. Us po' college folks ain't got the money for it. Weekends are for work. I put in 50-60 hour a week every summer doing manual labor. That money goes toward school and this application process that just loves to drain bank accounts. As much as I would love to try unicycle fire dancing or have my daddy bankroll the legal fees necessary to start a nonprofit, it's just not happening. Due to my god-awful location, I'm relegated to typical volunteering: handing out refreshments at blood drives and being an unpaid slave at a hospital. I'm not a science major so research isn't happening. You're so quick to judge the lives of those who don't have the same opportunities as you.

I jumped on an online non-profit early in my second year of college. It came close to failing multiple times, but me and my team helped bring it back. Now it's almost completely dead (due to various factors), but I still manage a fair bit of the daily work of the site, despite being a third year medical student.

The opportunities to do something are out there, if you're willing to look for them. Heck, even organizing something like a basketball tournament or 5K fundraiser for some program counts for something. Multiple people at my medical school have done something like that with no funding to start with.

Also, even your work counts for ECs. Just because you get paid doesn't mean it's a worthless activity.

Anyway, briefly reading this thread I can't tell if all this arguing is over research, clinical experience, and shadowing being pointless, or over stuff like hobbies and interests being pointless. If it's the latter then I agree; I really struggle to see how playing an instrument or a sport makes you a better doctor. If we're talking about the former though, then I absolutely disagree. Research and clinical experience are important, and not just for getting into medical school. I wouldn't even consider those things to be what makes an "interesting" candidate, that's just what you should have if you want to be seriously considered.

I absolutely agree that you need clinical experience for medical school. Research I'm less convinced on, primarily because I got in without any research under my belt. I disagree that playing a team sport or playing an instrument doesn't make you a better doctor, for multiple reasons. Skills you learn in these activities help you work in a team, which you will be doing for the rest of your life. In certain circumstances, these can double as leadership activities, which are also important in physicians. Problem solving is another skill that plays a role in both.

And, if nothing else, it might give you something to connect to your patients with. Who knows, maybe you'll end up as a surgeon who needs to repair the hand of a violinist.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

I absolutely agree that you need clinical experience for medical school. Research I'm less convinced on, primarily because I got in without any research under my belt. I disagree that playing a team sport or playing an instrument doesn't make you a better doctor, for multiple reasons. Skills you learn in these activities help you work in a team, which you will be doing for the rest of your life. In certain circumstances, these can double as leadership activities, which are also important in physicians. Problem solving is another skill that plays a role in both.

And, if nothing else, it might give you something to connect to your patients with. Who knows, maybe you'll end up as a surgeon who needs to repair the hand of a violinist.

Using that logic you can make that argument for anything though. Observe:

I disagree that playing video games doesn't make you a better doctor, for multiple reasons. Skills you learn in video games help you work in a team, which you will be doing for the rest of your life. In certain circumstances, video games can double as leadership activities, which are also important in physicians. Problem solving is another skill that plays a role in video games.

And, if nothing else, it might give you something to connect to your patients with. Who knows, maybe you'll end up as a surgeon who needs to repair the hand of a pro-gamer.

Somehow though I doubt anyone is going to be impressed by the fact that you were a clan leader in World of Warcraft or are one of the top players in Counter-Strike.

The logical problems are easy to spot when we use an example like this instead of something people are conditioned to view as a laudable past-time. For one thing, the skills aren't really that transferable. Being a leader for a team that plays a game is hardly the same thing as being a leader of a team of physicians. On top of that, the skills earned are dubious at best. Is the problem solving you learn from playing a game the same as the problem solving you learn from any college class, especially the sciences? Are you really going to be able to connect better with a significant amount of patients because you play an instrument? Not only is it unlikely many of your patients will be accomplished musicians with hand problems, but if you only perform well when you can relate to a patient in some way, you may very well have a severe case of narcissistic personality disorder. This works both ways too; the idea that patients will be more willing to listen to a doctor because they share a hobby and thus doctors with hobbies are better doctors is comical for the same reasons as above.

Really, I think the only reason med schools want to know about hobbies is to narrow down the applicant pool to "normal" people (ie, get the all American football player over the geeky LARPer).

 

[LizzyM]

Using that logic you can make that argument for anything though. Observe:

I disagree that playing video games doesn't make you a better doctor, for multiple reasons. Skills you learn in video games help you work in a team, which you will be doing for the rest of your life. In certain circumstances, video games can double as leadership activities, which are also important in physicians. Problem solving is another skill that plays a role in video games.

And, if nothing else, it might give you something to connect to your patients with. Who knows, maybe you'll end up as a surgeon who needs to repair the hand of a pro-gamer.

Somehow though I doubt anyone is going to be impressed by the fact that you were a clan leader in World of Warcraft or are one of the top players in Counter-Strike.

The logical problems are easy to spot when we use an example like this instead of something people are conditioned to view as a laudable past-time. For one thing, the skills aren't really that transferable. Being a leader for a team that plays a game is hardly the same thing as being a leader of a team of physicians. On top of that, the skills earned are dubious at best. Is the problem solving you learn from playing a game the same as the problem solving you learn from any college class, especially the sciences? Are you really going to be able to connect better with a significant amount of patients because you play an instrument? Not only is it unlikely many of your patients will be accomplished musicians with hand problems, but if you only perform well when you can relate to a patient in some way, you may very well have a severe case of narcissistic personality disorder. This works both ways too; the idea that patients will be more willing to listen to a doctor because they share a hobby and thus doctors with hobbies are better doctors is comical for the same reasons as above.

Really, I think the only reason med schools want to know about hobbies is to narrow down the applicant pool to "normal" people (ie, get the all American football player over the geeky LARPer).

Schools also know from experience that people who have interests outside of medicine/school are better prepared to be happy and productive physicians. My orthopedic surgeon is a marathon runner and a very talented artist (watercolors, pencils, acrylics). I didn't choose him for those talents but I know (because our children were friends) that he has a way to decompress each day and to remain physically fit.

See http://www.aaos.org/news/aaosnow/may10/youraaos7.asp about an exhibit featuring the art work of 30 orthopedic surgeons. People can cry poor as an excuse for not being involved in ECs but many are accessible for the cost of pencils and paper.

ECs broaden your view of the world and make you a better person. If what you are doing isn't having that effect, you should be doing something different.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

Schools also know from experience that people who have interests outside of medicine/school are better prepared to be happy and productive physicians. My orthopedic surgeon is a marathon runner and a very talented artist (watercolors, pencils, acrylics). I didn't choose him for those talents but I know (because our children were friends) that he has a way to decompress each day and to remain physically fit.

See http://www.aaos.org/news/aaosnow/may10/youraaos7.asp about an exhibit featuring the art work of 30 orthopedic surgeons. People can cry poor as an excuse for not being involved in ECs but many are accessible for the cost of pencils and paper.

ECs broaden your view of the world and make you a better person. If what you are doing isn't having that effect, you should be doing something different.

I definitely won't argue that hobbies are important for stress release and refreshing yourself; that's absolutely true. I will, however, argue the idea that only certain hobbies are capable of achieving this effect. For some people it may be painting; for others it may be writing Harry Potter fanfiction. If the end result is the same (psychological well-being), why favor one over the other?

The idea of "broadening your view" is a weak one imo. Let's use painting as an example since you used it: Painting is a very solitary hobby. It's also more or less exclusively mental, as many paintings are constructed entirely from imagination or a set scene. How is this broadening your view of the world? I suppose you could argue that learning about painting styles, techniques, famous artists, etc. is what broadens your world perspective, but none of these things require a person to be a painter; an art aficionado would gain all of these benefits as well. However, (and do correct me if I'm wrong on this) passive hobbies aren't taken seriously by adcoms; saying you like to look at art is going to be met with rolling eyes much like how saying you like to watch movies or listen to music will be viewed as a poor hobby.

For the sake of argument though, let's assume I'm wrong about all of that and that even a solitary hobby like painting can broaden your view of the world much better than mere passive enjoyment. Would it not be true, however, that after one becomes sufficiently exposed to a hobby that the hobby can no longer broaden their view of the world? While I'm sure you would never stop learning new things about painting, all you're learning is painting; you're no longer broadening your view of the world, you're just deepening your understanding of your hobby. The only way to further broaden your view would be to pick up new hobbies, but this would lead you to become a Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none (I doubt, for example, that an adcom would take a person who lists 50 hobbies seriously).

 

[theWhat]

I have an unromanticized view of medicine. I realize most of my time will be spent convincing diabetic pigs not to eat themselves to death; diplomatically forcing junkies out of the hospital; completing paperwork in triplicate form; etc. It doesn't bother me.

I've dealt with idiotic superiors before, people whose stupidity and negligence has put me in (physical) danger. I don't bitch and whine about. I take pride in how hard I work, no matter how much I hate the job and my coworkers. I draw the line at unpaid work e.g. volunteering for an admissions committee.

The fact that you refer to patients as pigs indicates you have little respect for patients and your coworkers because they are "beneath" you. Perhaps volunteering with some undeserved individuals might help change that perspective. I certainly wouldn't want my physician to have this mindset, nor would I want them to belittle volunteerism and other activities other than medicine as "worthless."

 

[Freesia88]

Why in the name of all that is good, holy and true does that say "Originally Posted By Freesia88" ???!??!!!

 

[music2doc]

I definitely won't argue that hobbies are important for stress release and refreshing yourself; that's absolutely true. I will, however, argue the idea that only certain hobbies are capable of achieving this effect. For some people it may be painting; for others it may be writing Harry Potter fanfiction. If the end result is the same (psychological well-being), why favor one over the other?

You're missing it still...

The idea of "broadening your view" is a weak one imo. Let's use painting as an example since you used it: Painting is a very solitary hobby. It's also more or less exclusively mental, as many paintings are constructed entirely from imagination or a set scene. How is this broadening your view of the world? I suppose you could argue that learning about painting styles, techniques, famous artists, etc. is what broadens your world perspective, but none of these things require a person to be a painter; an art aficionado would gain all of these benefits as well. However, (and do correct me if I'm wrong on this) passive hobbies aren't taken seriously by adcoms; saying you like to look at art is going to be met with rolling eyes much like how saying you like to watch movies or listen to music will be viewed as a poor hobby.

Yes:

One of these is not like the others:

A) Playing an instrument
B) Listening to music
C) Dancing ballet
D) Sculpting and painting

Do you see it? How might 3 of those 4 bring about growth in a way the 4th fails to do?



For the sake of argument though, let's assume I'm wrong about all of that and that even a solitary hobby like painting can broaden your view of the world much better than mere passive enjoyment. Would it not be true, however, that after one becomes sufficiently exposed to a hobby that the hobby can no longer broaden their view of the world?

Sure, but that's not necessarily the primary goal of the hobby....

While I'm sure you would never stop learning new things about painting, all you're learning is painting; you're no longer broadening your view of the world, you're just deepening your understanding of your hobby.

Still irrelevant, but this is not a bad thing.... I want interesting people in my class, not a bunch of robots. I know [virtually] every single one of my classmates would agree.

The only way to further broaden your view would be to pick up new hobbies, but this would lead you to become a Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none (I doubt, for example, that an adcom would take a person who lists 50 hobbies seriously).

Hobbies are to make you:

1) An interesting person (fun to be around, someone your classmates will want to get to know, etc.)
2) Broaden your perspective of the world
3) Lend personal growth (in the case above, creativity would be something you might develop from 3/4 of those activities)
3)

 

[theWhat]

Why in the name of all that is good, holy and true does that say "Originally Posted By Freesia88" ???!??!!!

Oh shoot sorry Freesia! Didn't know I did that, here lemme fix it. Stupid apps...

 

[circulus vitios]

The fact that you refer to patients as pigs indicates you have little respect for patients and your coworkers because they are "beneath" you. Perhaps volunteering with some undeserved individuals might help change that perspective. I certainly wouldn't want my physician to have this mindset, nor would I want them to belittle volunteerism and other activities other than medicine as "worthless."

Medicine is all puppy dogs and lollipops. My superiors didn't put me in harm's way so I have no right to be upset with them. You are unequivocally right and I look forward to adopting a mindset that you approve of so I can become your physician.

 

[Freesia88]

Oh shoot sorry Freesia! Didn't know I did that, here lemme fix it. Stupid apps...

I read the post and all my hairs stood on the end. Thank you for fixing it.

 

[theWhat]

Medicine is all puppy dogs and lollipops. My superiors didn't put me in harm's way so I have no right to be upset with them. You are unequivocally right and I look forward to adopting a mindset that you approve of so I can become your physician.

I'm sorry for whatever happened with your superiors, that's not what I was referring to, you certainly have the right to be mad if they put you in harms way. What I'm talking about is calling patients "pigs." How is this going to help you establish a good patient/doctor relationship? Nor did I say that medicine was "puppy dogs and lollipops." Basic respect for humans is, however, as it is a humanitarian profession.

 

[music2doc]

I have an unromanticized view of medicine. I realize most of my time will be spent convincing diabetic pigs not to eat themselves to death; diplomatically forcing junkies out of the hospital; completing paperwork in triplicate form; etc. It doesn't bother me.

I've dealt with idiotic superiors before, people whose stupidity and negligence has put me in (physical) danger. I don't bitch and whine about. I take pride in how hard I work, no matter how much I hate the job and my coworkers. I draw the line at unpaid work e.g. volunteering for an admissions committee.

I want to go into medicine because I like science and I want a stable and high-paying career, something that will put me solidly in the upper-middle class.

Wow... I missed that before. Dude, you're not someone I'd want as my physician, nor someone I would want sitting next to me in med school. Sorry. Yes, patients can be difficult, but wow.... You're that jaded BEFORE you've done any significant patient care???

 

[LizzyM]

Wow... I missed that before. Dude, you're not someone I'd want as my physician, nor someone I would want sitting next to me in med school. Sorry. Yes, patients can be difficult, but wow.... You're that jaded BEFORE you've done any significant patient care???

I'm out of here. I don't want to give people enough hints to know what kinds of lies to tell to get into medical school.

 

[circulus vitios]

I'm sorry for whatever happened with your superiors, that's not what I was referring to, you certainly have the right to be mad if they put you in harms way. What I'm talking about is calling patients "pigs." How is this going to help you establish a good patient/doctor relationship? Nor did I say that medicine was "puppy dogs and lollipops." Basic respect for humans is, however, as it is a humanitarian profession.

I can't blame a patient who has a legitimate medical condition, but patients who willingly eat themselves to death deserve to be challenged. Not berated or disrespected, mind you -- I was out of line with that comment.

 

[music2doc]

I'm out of here. I don't want to give people enough hints to know what kinds of lies to tell to get into medical school.

Probably wise, unfortunately.... We had one leak through this year, Lizzy. We're all still trying to figure out how he managed to get past the interview.

(I wish I were kidding )

 

[circulus vitios]

Wow... I missed that before. Dude, you're not someone I'd want as my physician, nor someone I would want sitting next to me in med school. Sorry. Yes, patients can be difficult, but wow.... You're that jaded BEFORE you've done any significant patient care???

I was obese all through high school (>250 pounds at 5'9".) My physician never said a word during my routine checkups. Tough love is appropriate.

 

[Freesia88]

Umm... Mods? I think we have a problem...