Importance of Shadowing

[music2doc]

Umm... Mods? I think we have a problem...

Time to lock this thread? lol...

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[music2doc]

I was obese all through high school (>250 pounds at 5'9".) My physician never said a word during my routine checkups. Tough love is appropriate.

Tough love, maybe, given the right context, but insulting words... not gonna fix the problem.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

Hobbies are to make you:

1) An interesting person (fun to be around, someone your classmates will want to get to know, etc.)
2) Broaden your perspective of the world
3) Lend personal growth (in the case above, creativity would be something you might develop from 3/4 of those activities)
3)

1) I thought hobbies were supposed to be fun and relaxing, not something you did to make other people like you. That's a pretty crappy reason to engage in any past-time wouldn't you agree? Not that it makes a difference, I've never known anyone to like a person simply because of a hobby. At best it's something that gets talked about in idle chat one time and never brought up again. Typically it's your personality that makes or breaks your social experience.
2) You agree with me that hobbies don't do much to broaden one's perspective and even state that's not the primary reason for a hobby, and yet you still list it as a reason?
3) Read below

"Personal growth" is something else that can be achieved by any hobby. Yes, not all hobbies will improve your creativity, but that doesn't mean they can't provide personal growth in other ways. Let's use listening to music as an example since you used it. Now, listening to the billboard top 100 on the radio probably won't do much to further you as a person, but listening to many genres of music including classical and jazz in a manner in which you focus on the composition, the techniques, the complexity, the message the composer was going for, the conductor's interpretation, the skill of the musicians, the historical significance of the work, and other aspects of music will. Indeed, such a pursuit is legitimized by the major offerings of the music departments of most universities, usually as a concentration under the heading of "music appreciation" or "history and culture of music" or something to that effect.

Also, let me make myself clear here before someone tries to raise this point: I'm not saying people shouldn't have hobbies, or are better off without them. I think everyone should have a hobby, although I don't think this is much of a problem in modern society since I can't imagine how someone couldn't have some sort of activity that they find enjoyable (if you don't I believe that's called anhedonia and is a hallmark symptom of major depression). Rather I think it's silly to consider only some hobbies as legitimate.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Also, let me make myself clear here before someone tries to raise this point: I'm not saying people shouldn't have hobbies, or are better off without them. I think everyone should have a hobby, although I don't think this is much of a problem in modern society since I can't imagine how someone couldn't have some sort of activity that they find enjoyable (if you don't I believe that's called anhedonia and is a hallmark symptom of major depression). Rather I think it's silly to consider only some hobbies as legitimate.

banging fat bitches at the bar is a great hobby if you ask me.

 

[circulus vitios]

This is what happens when I drink all day.

 

[HeronsBeak]

Generally, 40-100 hrs of shadowing is sufficient. You will also need clinical experience (at least 200 hrs is sufficient for most schools, a few do expect quite a bit more). Research and community service/volunteering are also helpful for many schools.

No, a good MCAT or GPA will not compensate for a lack of clinical experience (i.e., active work, such as hospital/clinic volunteering, ED Tech, EMS, CNA, etc.) or exposure (i.e., shadowing).

I got a late start on my clinical volunteering, and am currently doing the medical tests for hospital volunteering this spring semester. I was thinking of taking a CNA or EMT-B class for certification this spring also. I will only be allowed to volunteer 3-4 hrs per week(lots of volunteers, they only give one shift to make room for everyone), plus two-three hours non-clinical per week which I'm starting this semester. By the end of next semester, that's only 45-60hrs clinical and ~70hrs non clinical(pretty low, I know). Do the clinical hours for the CNA/EMT(I think something like 20-30hrs for CNA) class count? I obviously will not have worked as either before I turn in my application, so not sure if this does me much good.

 

[circulus vitios]

I got a late start on my clinical volunteering, and am currently doing the medical tests for hospital volunteering this spring semester. I was thinking of taking a CNA or EMT-B class for certification this spring also. I will only be allowed to volunteer 3-4 hrs per week(lots of volunteers, they only give one shift to make room for everyone), plus two-three hours non-clinical per week which I'm starting this semester. By the end of next semester, that's only 45-60hrs clinical and ~70hrs non clinical(pretty low, I know). Do the clinical hours for the CNA/EMT(I think something like 20-30hrs for CNA) class count? I obviously will not have worked as either before I turn in my application, so not sure if this does me much good.

I thought about doing EMT-B, too, but unless you work as an EMT, the license alone means very little.

 

[music2doc]

I got a late start on my clinical volunteering, and am currently doing the medical tests for hospital volunteering this spring semester. I was thinking of taking a CNA or EMT-B class for certification this spring also. I will only be allowed to volunteer 3-4 hrs per week(lots of volunteers, they only give one shift to make room for everyone), plus two-three hours non-clinical per week which I'm starting this semester. By the end of next semester, that's only 45-60hrs clinical and ~70hrs non clinical(pretty low, I know). Do the clinical hours for the CNA/EMT(I think something like 20-30hrs for CNA) class count? I obviously will not have worked as either before I turn in my application, so not sure if this does me much good.

No, course time does not count toward clinical experience; however, some free clinics in your area may be willing to utilize you during training.

I thought about doing EMT-B, too, but unless you work as an EMT, the license alone means very little.

This is true.

 

[pre med 2014]

I don't understand why some people think shadowing is fluff and pointless??? I shadowed a few doctors in China and I had a great time. In Canada, we don't even have the opportunity to shadow unless we have connections

Thats how it is here now. The only physicians I've been able to shadow have been colleagues of my father. Everyone else, HIPPA.

 

[RelicLTD]

Shadowing might be fluff for some... but if you go into it LOOKING TO LEARN about medicine, and are actually willing to ask the doctor for his honest opinion about clinical care, you can learn a lot.

Most of the people I shadowed sat me down in their office before or after and had a talk about applying and if it was the right decision for them and me, what makes a career in medicine good and worth while, etc.

Take the time to shadow, and don't just sit in the back. Don't do it to fluff your application, although that is a side benefit. Do it for yourself. It isn't a good test of your interest in medicine if you aren't actively trying.

I highly recommend doing at least ONE extended jaunt with a physician if you can. Whether multiple days, or a full shift. Ask questions, non-medical questions, that you actually care about. A single few hour chunk with a physician you barely know doesn't yield much more than watching an episode of House.

 

[mangoshakes]

I personally don't always see the value in shadowing. I volunteer in a free clinic and get plenty of hands on experience that way. I at least feel like I'm contributing more instead of shadowing. Anybody can shadow a physician but it takes dedication to volunteer consistently IMO.

 

[mvenus929]

For one thing, the skills aren't really that transferable. Being a leader for a team that plays a game is hardly the same thing as being a leader of a team of physicians. On top of that, the skills earned are dubious at best. Is the problem solving you learn from playing a game the same as the problem solving you learn from any college class, especially the sciences?

http://archotol.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1351924

Guess not all skills aren't transferable.

 

[ThunderBear]

Generally, 40-100 hrs of shadowing is sufficient. You will also need clinical experience (at least 200 hrs is sufficient for most schools, a few do expect quite a bit more). Research and community service/volunteering are also helpful for many schools.

No, a good MCAT or GPA will not compensate for a lack of clinical experience (i.e., active work, such as hospital/clinic volunteering, ED Tech, EMS, CNA, etc.) or exposure (i.e., shadowing).

I sort of disagree. I know of lots people that made it into medical with not much more than an above average GPA and MCAT. I don't really agree with that, but I know it happens all the time.

 

[akademiks1989]

I did not shadow whatsoever.

It's almost impossible nowadays with privacy laws and such. Most doctors will say "sorry, can't do it"

I worked at a hospital that not only provided me with direct patient contact (I was a transporter at a trauma hospital), but I would constantly interact with physicians (many of the residents would help me pushed heavy beds and IV polls) and learned from there by passively shadowing. I assisted in adult medical code blues ALL THE TIME and witnessed patients being intubated in the ER and physicians coming into the room and consulting a patient right as I am about to transport them to their test location.

So listen up pre-meds, don't think of cookie cutter experiences, like going to Guatemala to pass out reading glasses and band-aids and writing it as a meaningful medical mission experience. Instead, become a REALISTIC member of the medical community as an undergraduate or pre-med student, and learn from what you have available and make every opportunity count. The only thing all pre-meds should do is VOLUNTEER. That should be a requirement for medical school. It certainly is the unwritten requirement.

 

[cver02]

I agree with your post 100%!

 

[pyrrion89]

So listen up pre-meds, don't think of cookie cutter experiences, like going to Guatemala to pass out reading glasses and band-aids and writing it as a meaningful medical mission experience.

Overseas volunteering can teach you a lot about what it is like to have less and what medicine looks like when resources are slim and allocated poorly. You can also end up seeing a lot of procedures in a short amount of time (which is much harder to do in the States due to regulations and hospital policies). Don't be so quick to dismiss overseas trips as meaningless resume padding.

 

[music2doc]

Overseas volunteering can teach you a lot about what it is like to have less and what medicine looks like when resources are slim and allocated poorly. You can also end up seeing a lot of procedures in a short amount of time (which is much harder to do in the States due to regulations and hospital policies). Don't be so quick to dismiss overseas trips as meaningless resume padding.

That is how AdComs tend to view it -- and often even worse. If you were doing "medical things" down there for which you lack formal training (i.e., could not do in the States), you are effectively exploiting vulnerable people.

On the other hand, if your overseas trips are consistently to one area of the world and reflect similar behavior back home (e.g., lots of similar work in underserved communities in your own community and ongoing international work with continuity measures in place), your overseas experiences will be looked upon very favorably. I know mine were.

 

[pyrrion89]

That is how AdComs tend to view it -- and often even worse. If you were doing "medical things" down there for which you lack formal training (i.e., could not do in the States), you are effectively exploiting vulnerable people.

On the other hand, if your overseas trips are consistently to one area of the world and reflect similar behavior back home (e.g., lots of similar work in underserved communities in your own community and ongoing international work with continuity measures in place), your overseas experiences will be looked upon very favorably. I know mine were.

I volunteered a month overseas in a third world country. I certainly didn't do anything brash or exploitative. I felt like I learned a great deal about medicine and myself, and I developed my interest in medicine a great deal there. I think if the experience is transformative for you it shouldn't hurt your chances, as long as you're open and communicative about that during your interviews and in your essays.

Surely my experience is not as great as yours is because yours seems to fit some larger passion for international medicine and philanthropy. But I think it's wrong to suggest that it's either all-or-nothing (either you volunteer as part of an epic, sustained project like Paul Farmer's or it's junk). Again, I'm not stating all overseas experiences are of equal magnitude, but rather pointing out that even smaller-scale projects aren't necessarily worthless.

If the adcoms are with you and they really do think shorter projects are worthless, then I think they are overlooking these experiences' potential to enrich a pre-medical students' character and outlook. I don't think adcoms are a monolithic bunch of people who all have the same opinions on the value of X, Y, and Z experiences. While you'll find some who scoff at any overseas involvement, I think others will appreciate the experiences not only in terms of what was achieved but also how it shaped the applicants' beliefs and character.

 

[music2doc]

I volunteered a month overseas in a third world country. I certainly didn't do anything brash or exploitative. I felt like I learned a great deal about medicine and myself, and I developed my interest in medicine a great deal there. I think if the experience is transformative for you it shouldn't hurt your chances, as long as you're open and communicative about that during your interviews and in your essays.

Surely my experience is not as great as yours is because yours seems to fit some larger passion for international medicine and philanthropy. But I think it's wrong to suggest that it's either all-or-nothing (either you volunteer as part of an epic, sustained project like Paul Farmer's or it's junk). Again, I'm not stating all overseas experiences are of equal magnitude, but rather pointing out that even smaller-scale projects aren't necessarily worthless.

If the adcoms are with you and they really do think shorter projects are worthless, then I think they are overlooking these experiences' potential to enrich a pre-medical students' character and outlook. I don't think adcoms are a monolithic bunch of people who all have the same opinions on the value of X, Y, and Z experiences. While you'll find some who scoff at any overseas involvement, I think others will appreciate the experiences not only in terms of what was achieved but also how it shaped the applicants' beliefs and character.

Overseas work has to be considered in context. You may have gotten a lot out of it personally, but adcoms who are in tune with global health and global needs recognize that a one-time visit without follow-up is actually very harmful to the local community (in aggregate). It also looks "odd" if you go volunteer somewhere abroad but don't have anything else going on domestically. It basically becomes "voluntourism," which has a pretty bad name in the medical and international communities. Since you are, in some sense, taking from their community and likely not giving anything back, I would suggest that you owe it to them to take their investment in you and develop it into something that will benefit their community in some way (whether that is their community in their country or a [very] loosely related community back home).

I guess my question to you, if I were your interviewer, would be how that trip impacted your work at home and how it has influenced your future interests in global health. Naturally, any response would also be expected to have actions attached to it (e.g., "My time in Guatemala building houses for a month made me more aware of the Hispanic and Latino community back home in Los Angeles. I hadn't really realized their unique needs before but since then, I have actually begun a research project examining the effects of language barriers resulting in social isolation on depression in Latino immigrants....").

BTW, "you're welcome" for the research topic. It might actually be an interesting one if you were in a Latin American country....

 

[akademiks1989]

I volunteered a month overseas in a third world country. I certainly didn't do anything brash or exploitative. I felt like I learned a great deal about medicine and myself, and I developed my interest in medicine a great deal there. I think if the experience is transformative for you it shouldn't hurt your chances, as long as you're open and communicative about that during your interviews and in your essays.

Surely my experience is not as great as yours is because yours seems to fit some larger passion for international medicine and philanthropy. But I think it's wrong to suggest that it's either all-or-nothing (either you volunteer as part of an epic, sustained project like Paul Farmer's or it's junk). Again, I'm not stating all overseas experiences are of equal magnitude, but rather pointing out that even smaller-scale projects aren't necessarily worthless.

If the adcoms are with you and they really do think shorter projects are worthless, then I think they are overlooking these experiences' potential to enrich a pre-medical students' character and outlook. I don't think adcoms are a monolithic bunch of people who all have the same opinions on the value of X, Y, and Z experiences. While you'll find some who scoff at any overseas involvement, I think others will appreciate the experiences not only in terms of what was achieved but also how it shaped the applicants' beliefs and character.

I don't think it's about adcoms being a monolithic group of people. I think a lot of pre-med students want so badly to go overseas or to a different country to volunteer for a week or two because it will indeed pad their resume, but don't realize that there is always an under-served community nearby that can use assistance. If you want to see disparities in medicine in the United States (presumably where you will attend medical school and eventually practice), why not do something in your own backyard? I volunteered from ages 22-24 at a cancer center, and the consensus of the younger volunteers (who were also studying for their freshmen gen chem class) all seemed to think going overseas to volunteer would put them as front runners in the med school admissions race. It doesn't. I think there is nothing more cookie-cutter than hearing someone went to a third world country who is pre-med. Same thing with shadowing. Same thing with getting an EMT certification. These things are not required and certainly appear (whether true or not) to be self-serving rather than showing a genuine interest in helping people.

I just wish pre-meds were more creative in their approach. It sure as hell makes you look more interesting when coupled with amazing MCAT and GPA. There's nothing wrong with all the activities I mentioned above, but you need a little bit of creativity and a lot of balance or else you'll be another privileged kid that went to Guatemala or shadowing their uncle in the OR. Not a good look, in my humble opinion.

 

[pyrrion89]

Alright, sorry for derailing the thread.