In-Depth Financial Analysis of HPSP

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Are you going to an osteopathic school? The average tuition for private allopathic usually run $40-45K/year.

Private allo, one of the more expensive. Mine, with all expenses included, it's just a little 50. The tuition is a little over 45, the health insurance is another 1.5, books and supplies add over 1K (the military is paying for about 5K annually, actually, but no way I would have bought all that crap as a civilian), which brings me to about 200 over 4 years. 25K/year living expenses would bring you to 300K. I realize that sounds like a lot, but it's really not for a young professional or someone with a family (not that I'm spending that much, of course, since I'm neither of those things). In any event that's just about what the military gives you to live on for those 4 years (including bonus) so whether you count it as interest in the bank or interest on a loan it works out to the same thing.
If you are supremely confident that you just would couldn't practice medicine unless it was primary care, that's great. But for most folks, they'd be wise to run numbers with any specialty that interests them and judge based on the highest paying one.

Why is this wise, again? Money has a diminishing return. 4 years of lower than average ortho salary is going to be much less of a detriment to you ability to do something like own a home, or fill up college funds, than carrying over 300K in debt into family practice. It seems like the wise thing to do is to plan for the worst case scenario.
A very sizable number of these qualify as what I would consider "rich"

There was one point where the financial aid office at my school accidentally sent out a notice to everyone in our class on financial aid using their email addresses, rather than a listserv. There were 90 names on the list. Math for medical students: 180 people in a class, 90 on financial aid, 20 on HPSP, leaves how many getting a full ride from somewhere else?

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Are you going to an osteopathic school? The average tuition for private allopathic usually run $40-45K/year.

Private allo, one of the more expensive. Mine, with all expenses included, it's just about 50. The tuition is a little over 45, the health insurance is another 2, books and supplies add over 1K (the military is paying for about 5K annually, actually, but no way I would have bought all that crap as a civilian), which brings me to 200 over 4 years. 25K/year living expenses would bring you to 300K. I realize that sounds like a lot, but it's really not for a young professional or someone with a family (not that I'm spending that much, of course, since I'm neither of those things). In any event that's just about what the military gives you to live on for those 4 years (including bonus) so whether you count it as interest in the bank or interest on a loan it works out to the same thing.
 
Why is this wise, again? Money has a diminishing return. 4 years of lower than average ortho salary is going to be much less of a detriment to you ability to do something like own a home, or fill up college funds, than carrying over 300K in debt into family practice. It seems like the wise thing to do is to plan for the worst case scenario.
By taking HPSP, a debt-heavy/low-end-paid family practitioner could save themselves $75K or so. But by taking HPSP, a debt-heavy/well-paid orthopedic surgeon could have cost themselves literally hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Worst case scenario for me would not be going civilian and not saving $75K as a family doc. Worst case for me would be having cost myself hundreds of thousands of dollars by taking the scholarship. The scholarship was financially sound for the first scenario, but very, very bad for the second.

I see your logic, but my attitude is to weight the benefit and the cost. If your two options you're conisdering are family practice and orthopedic surgery, the potential benefit of HPSP is much less than the potential cost of HPSP. The problem with any of this is that your average entering medical student doesn't even know all the specialties available, so stating with confidence what field they'll enter is a bit of voodoo.
 
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There was one point where the financial aid office at my school accidentally sent out a notice to everyone in our class on financial aid using their email addresses, rather than a listserv. There were 90 names on the list. Math for medical students: 180 people in a class, 90 on financial aid, 20 on HPSP, leaves how many getting a full ride from somewhere else?
That's.... sad. Good for them I suppose, but definitely helps further the stereotype of doctors being rich and out of touch. Or maybe your school has the market cornered on the small handful of full-ride scholarships out there.

My condolences on the tuition. I fell in love with a school that had tuition of $47K/year and I came very close to saying yes. The best piece of advice I could give potential medical students is to go to the cheapest medical school they find palatable. The difference between medical schools is far less than people think and/or are willing to admit.

My decision was made easier by a mental exercise. I asked myself: if this school offered me an incentive of half the mortgage of a nice starter home, would I go there? That helped put things in perspective.
 
just to throw out one of the highest COAs that ive seen in my app process:
wayne state for an out of state resident:
the budget can be found here:
http://www.med.wayne.edu/student_affairs/financial_aid/costs.asp

if you take the out of state tuition cost, use perrotfish's number of 25k for living expenses, and include the required fees you have the following:
58,329 (out of state tuition) + 25,000 (living expense) + 1,718 (required fees) = $85,047

85,047 x 4 = $340,188

just some food for thought

EDIT: fine print at bottom: [Mandatory] Insurance premiums will be added on an individual basis to the Cost of Attendance.
 
My condolences on the tuition. I fell in love with a school that had tuition of $47K/year and I came very close to saying yes. The best piece of advice I could give potential medical students is to go to the cheapest medical school they find palatable. The difference between medical schools is far less than people think and/or are willing to admit.

Yup, no question that the tuition here is the reason that we have almost 20 HPSP scholarships in my class alone. It's the same reason that DO schools are around 10% of the medical student population but nearly 50% of the HPSP population.
 
just to throw out one of the highest COAs that ive seen in my app process:
wayne state for an out of state resident:
Good god. A mandatory tuition like that is bordering on exploitive. I intentionally ruled out all those schools on principle. That said, if I had to apply a second time, I'm sure I'd've slapped those on the list PDQ.
EDIT: fine print at bottom: [Mandatory] Insurance premiums will be added on an individual basis to the Cost of Attendance.
That's pretty common. They have that at a lot of medical schools I looked at. I was self-employed for a while and have my own insurance and each school I talked to said they'd accept that. I don't think they're making money on the deal, they just want to have everyone insured.

If they can't push universal healthcare through congress, they probably figure they can bloody well push it through their own medical school.
 
Yup, no question that the tuition here is the reason that we have almost 20 HPSP scholarships in my class alone. It's the same reason that DO schools are around 10% of the medical student population but nearly 50% of the HPSP population.
That explains the apparent rampant patriotism running at osteopathic schools. Here I thought they just had the student shouting cadences while doing OMM or something.
 
That's pretty common. They have that at a lot of medical schools I looked at. I was self-employed for a while and have my own insurance and each school I talked to said they'd accept that. I don't think they're making money on the deal, they just want to have everyone insured.

If they can't push universal healthcare through congress, they probably figure they can bloody well push it through their own medical school.

yeah i just figured id add that note at the end to tack on an additional thousand bucks or so for insurance premiums to the total figure
 
For those of you who have done all these financial analyses, could you perhaps post a link to where you got your interest rates and average salaries from? Or just post a link to your excel spreadsheet? I would really like to do an in-depth analysis before signing off my life to the military, but its very daunting.

I dont want to seem like I'm just in the HPSP for the money, because I am actually intrigued after learning about it. However, I'm not going to stay away from a potential $250,000 or more just to serve.

People have said earlier in this post that any benefit of a HPSP scholarship goes down the tube with a GMO tour, because you're making much less than you would doing your active duty service after your residency, as an attending. Has anybody factored the loss caused by this*chances of serving a GMO tour into their calculations?
 
For those of you who have done all these financial analyses, could you perhaps post a link to where you got your interest rates and average salaries from? Or just post a link to your excel spreadsheet? I would really like to do an in-depth analysis before signing off my life to the military, but its very daunting.

I dont want to seem like I'm just in the HPSP for the money, because I am actually intrigued after learning about it. However, I'm not going to stay away from a potential $250,000 or more just to serve.

People have said earlier in this post that any benefit of a HPSP scholarship goes down the tube with a GMO tour, because you're making much less than you would doing your active duty service after your residency, as an attending. Has anybody factored the loss caused by this*chances of serving a GMO tour into their calculations?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=504710

I posted a spreadsheet in the above thread. you can play around with it if you like. There are a lot of benefits that I left out of it as well.

Some people say you are "signing years away of your life" by joining the military, I guess you would look at it that way if you didn't have any desire to serve but still signed up. So make sure it is something you could enjoy doing or something you want to do before making a monetary decision on it.
 
elderjack,

In your spreadsheet you accounted for stipend and "pay" from the HPSP. Is the "pay" money made during your ADT? Its hard to calculate this number... I came up with something like $2300/month before allowances. What's the final check come out to and does it end up being more than the regular stipend money since that is suspended during ADT?

It seems like a financially sound move considering the high cost of my medical school, but I'm still worried about not being able to do my specialty of choice or forced into a GMO tour....
 
elderjack,

In your spreadsheet you accounted for stipend and "pay" from the HPSP. Is the "pay" money made during your ADT? Its hard to calculate this number... I came up with something like $2300/month before allowances. What's the final check come out to and does it end up being more than the regular stipend money since that is suspended during ADT?

It seems like a financially sound move considering the high cost of my medical school, but I'm still worried about not being able to do my specialty of choice or forced into a GMO tour....

Don't do it for the money. If you're worried about a GMO tour or a delay in your training then don't sign up.
 
So make sure it is something you could enjoy doing or something you want to do before making a monetary decision on it.
Don't do it for the money. If you're worried about a GMO tour or a delay in your training then don't sign up.
There's a lot of polarized opinions on SDN about HPSP, but the one thing that folks seem unified about is the idea that you should not take HPSP if you do not have a desire to be an officer and serve in the military.

I'm dubious about how often HPSP pays for itself, but even when it does, the risk of delayed training, fewer training options, and deployment make HPSP a really bad idea unless you truly want to serve your country in the military.
 
Who's polarized? All of the attendings universally hate HPSP.

That's not true. NavyFP thinks military med is all right (but I don't know what he thinks about HPSP.) I think military med is kind of lame, but not a disaster, but I despise HPSP, especially how it was a few years ago when there was no signing bonus and the stipend was half as much.

The worst part about HPSP is the match.

Careful not to confuse military medicine and HPSP. They are two different things. Lots of people do military medicine without ever doing HPSP. Direct accessions, FAP, USUHS etc.
 
That's not true. NavyFP thinks military med is all right (but I don't know what he thinks about HPSP.) I think military med is kind of lame, but not a disaster, but I despise HPSP, especially how it was a few years ago when there was no signing bonus and the stipend was half as much.

The worst part about HPSP is the match.

Careful not to confuse military medicine and HPSP. They are two different things. Lots of people do military medicine without ever doing HPSP. Direct accessions, FAP, USUHS etc.

As a program, I think HPSP is improving. All things considered, it is a good option for those who want to be in the military. Not so good for those who just want the money. My primary complaint is students don't enter the program with realistic expectations. (some do, many don't.) I believe full disclosure is important, but it is a complex system and there are very few who completely understand it.

About 75% of all docs in the Navy entered via HPSP.

ADMD - what is it about the match you don't like? Is it the lack of deferments? Is it the interuption in training? Just curious.
 
As a program, I think HPSP is improving. All things considered, it is a good option for those who want to be in the military. Not so good for those who just want the money. My primary complaint is students don't enter the program with realistic expectations. (some do, many don't.) I believe full disclosure is important, but it is a complex system and there are very few who completely understand it.

About 75% of all docs in the Navy entered via HPSP.

ADMD - what is it about the match you don't like? Is it the lack of deferments? Is it the interuption in training? Just curious.

1) No one explains to you how it works. Every MD student in the country understands the regular match long before it matters.

2) You are forced to rank all the programs in your desired specialty.

3) The system is set up to favor the programs, not the applicants, unlike the regular match. i.e. the program directors get to pick their residents and just fight it out with the other ones for which ones go where.

4) Not enough choices of programs. Most services/specialties give you fewer than 4 choices, then the military brags about how most people get "one of their top 3." Come on, give me a break.

5) Too much emphasis on research and prior service. A mediocre returning GMO is somehow equated with an exceptional MSIV.

6) You can match into a program you never interviewed at.

7) Too many specialties are far more competitive in the military match than in the civilian match. There are a few less competitive (derm etc) but for those who want to do EM (94% civilian, <50% military, 0% some years for Navy med students) or similar, you can really get screwed over.

8) A delay in training is very unfair unless it is something the med student wants. First you're stuck practicing a specialty you're not interested in. Then, unless you want to take a huge pay cut at the same time your classmates are finally getting attending pay, you have to do a military residency, for which you will then owe MORE time. If the military wants to blow the 4 years you owe using you as a GMO then train you, then release you, fine. But to allow some people to pay their school commitment at the same time as their residency commitment, but make them additive for those they screw over....that's just wrong.

9) Quality of GME very poor for some specialties, especially those who do trauma/critical care, but also some things like derm. For instance, the SAUSHEC derm program has something like 7 residents a year (I don't know the exact numbers) so the good pathology is spread out among a lot of residents. Similar programs in the same town are much smaller, so the residents get to see all the weird stuff. Even the specialties that have decent GME, very few military residencies are considered "top ten" or "top 20" in their specialty. With faculty getting deployed, inexperienced faculty, a crazy focus on teaching to the test, and low acuity, it is tough to have a good residency.

10) Poor communication between the military and the students while they're in the program. Too much hassle getting paid and reimbursed. Too much hassle lining up ADTs. Nearly impossible to get questions about the program answered before or after signing on the bottom line. I had to come to SDN to get my questions answered about the program. That's just pathetic.

Nobody is denying HPSP is improving (although I suppose we could argue about that) but there is no doubt it could be MUCH, MUCH better. If the program was really that great, those who are in it would be the best (informal) recruiters. Yet in my experience, the only recruiters are enlisted guys who often haven't even worked in health care or been to college. Few of my colleagues would recommend the program even for prior service applicants.
 
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