In possible professionalism trouble...how bad is this?

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cluckcluck

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I screwed up royally in handling this and I don't know what might happen now or what I should do.

The backstory:

About a couple months ago I had met with a fellow at a local hospital about possibly participating in a research project, and I had told him that I was interested. He added me to his group's mailing list so that I could receive information like presentations to help me understand the scope of the work. Shortly after my meeting, I begun to get really busy with school, and had kept putting the project in the backburner in hopes that at some point I would have free time. Eventually I was not able to contribute since my workload just kept getting worse. Now, at this present point, I pretty much fell out of the loop. I emailed him saying that I was withdrawing from the project and I apologized for not informing him much earlier that I could not handle doing research.

When he emailed me back, he told me that he was furious and would have to speak to his mentor about possibly reporting me to my med school for unprofessional conduct since the information emailed out was group research info that was confidential. He asked me to remove all files from my system related to the project and I complied and apologized again.

Now:

I know that I made a really bad mistake, and am scared of what consequences I could face. Could this end up as a permanent report on my record or even a dismissal? I'm not too familiar with research professionalism and I don't know how bad this could hurt me.
 
Doubt this will amount to anything. If you passed on the confidential data to a rival lab, that would amount to unprofessionalism.
 
Yeah bud I think you'll be alright...I'm not even sure what the issue is here, perhaps that fellow is off his meds.
 
You'll be fine. Your first priority is education, not being someone's slave labor. You're a medical student. Are you going to sell his group's data? What a joke.

Calm down, it'll all work out. Maybe you could be proactive and talk to your student life dean, if you have one. They'll probably make you feel better at the whole situation if it's really bothering you.
 
If anyone is in trouble its the fellow who is apparently sending super secret info to random medstudents w/o giving them any expectations.
 
cluckcluck said:
I screwed up royally in handling this and I don't know what might happen now or what I should do.

The backstory:

About a couple months ago I had met with a fellow at a local hospital about possibly participating in a research project, and I had told him that I was interested. He added me to his group's mailing list so that I could receive information like presentations to help me understand the scope of the work. Shortly after my meeting, I begun to get really busy with school, and had kept putting the project in the backburner in hopes that at some point I would have free time. Eventually I was not able to contribute since my workload just kept getting worse. Now, at this present point, I pretty much fell out of the loop. I emailed him saying that I was withdrawing from the project and I apologized for not informing him much earlier that I could not handle doing research.

When he emailed me back, he told me that he was furious and would have to speak to his mentor about possibly reporting me to my med school for unprofessional conduct since the information emailed out was group research info that was confidential. He asked me to remove all files from my system related to the project and I complied and apologized again.

Now:

I know that I made a really bad mistake, and am scared of what consequences I could face. Could this end up as a permanent report on my record or even a dismissal? I'm not too familiar with research professionalism and I don't know how bad this could hurt me.
Click to expand...

First thing I'll say is that I simply don't see anyway this could get you into some kind of real trouble. You entered into the agreement in good faith, not clearly understanding the work, and when you realized you were in over your head your politely got out. I think it was actually handled "professionally", assuming your side of the story here is true.

Now with that said, research is tough business, and time consuming. He may have been counting on you to do a part of HIS project - perhaps one he was planning to submit for abstract, or publication, or even as a grant proposal for a K award. I could see being a little bent out of shape if I was working with a student who said she was going to do something that I needed done, but then told me she couldn't. Now it's his fault for not figuring that in mostly, but you've also got a small part to play but not communicating more early on and not getting more informed of the time commitment. Now there is nothing you can do to go back and NOT make the mistake all you can do is not do the same thing again in the future. Try not to take on projects you might not be able to finish.

This shouldn't hurt you a bit, unless you were planning to apply to the specialty program where the fellow is training.
 
Thanks so much for the responses guys. I think I was in a lot of shock when I got the email, and this has helped to relieve me a bit.

To clarify a few things:
I was not yet assigned a specific duty. The research project was a broad one and very self-directed, and I was supposed to come up with a specific area of medicine to look into that I was interested in. I never got past that step. I only got as far as learning how to data collect after that step, but in my situation I never really got started on any idea. I sort of got embarrassed about how little progress I had made, and wrongfully didn't contact him for almost 2 months that I didn't go anywhere yet with the project.

I made things look even worse on my part, because he recently sent me a brief message asking if I had made any progress or if I was still interested, and that was when I replied apologizing and saying sorry that I should have let him known earlier that I could not handle research. He replied immediately saying that I had been receiving group emails and powerpoints for months which were confidential info, and that it was entirely unprofessional to not inform him early on that I was going to withdraw. After that he said that he would have to speak to his mentor about reporting me to my school for unprofessional conduct. I replied and told him I entirely agreed that my behavior was unprofessional and I regretted what I did and that I was sorry again.

That was pretty much the timeline as to the extent of my involvement.
 
surftheiop said:
If anyone is in trouble its the fellow who is apparently sending super secret info to random medstudents w/o giving them any expectations.
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This. Even worse if it's HIPAA-protected info. It' d be like a drug dealer filing a police report alleging someone stole his stash. Seriously, don't worry about this.
 
cluckcluck said:
I made things look even worse on my part, because he recently sent me a brief message asking if I had made any progress or if I was still interested, and that was when I replied apologizing and saying sorry that I should have let him known earlier that I could not handle research. He replied immediately saying that I had been receiving group emails and powerpoints for months which were confidential info, and that it was entirely unprofessional to not inform him early on that I was going to withdraw. After that he said that he would have to speak to his mentor about reporting me to my school for unprofessional conduct. I replied and told him I entirely agreed that my behavior was unprofessional and I regretted what I did and that I was sorry again.

That was pretty much the timeline as to the extent of my involvement.
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:laugh::laugh:

What a dick. Nothing will come of this.
 
i agree, this guy is a prickbag. don't even worry about it, he doesn't have a leg to stand on.
 
I actually do think what you did was unprofessional if you let a couple of months lapse without emailing the person to tell them you were no longer interested. Yes, you were probably distracted with exams and classes but at the back of your mind, you thought you could put off telling him.

Should you get a mark on your record for it? No, but let this be a lesson to you to always keep up with stuff.
 
I have to agree with TAWS that this was very unprofessional, due to the timeframe. Remember, medicine and research is a small world. I doubt you'll be written up and I know you won't be dismissed but...

I had something similar happen (details withheld) while working on a really interesting collaborative summer project with a famous lab in its field. A grad student dropped the ball and basically doomed the project to failure as we couldn't get it done on time. Worse yet, three people at my lab basically lost a summer's worth of research because of it. The PI of that lab is now high up in the medical world and instead of thinking of him as a cool guy in my desired field, we think of him as the PI who ran a crappy lab who wasted our summers. Biased much? Yeah, but one's mistakes can not only reflect on yourself but on others. It's a small world and pissing off the wrong people, especially when they're loca or operate in a small field, can have repercussions. I'm sure that is partly why the fellow is pissed. I'd write a formal letter of apology and hope this blows over. But you may take a reputation hit.
 
I say a short apology is enough. Don't berate yourself. It is just another lesson in life for you to use positively. You can just let this help you next time you might feel able to do a project and realize you can't. But you don't deserve to be abused ...if he wants to "tattle" on you, let him. I say ball is in his park, but you don't have to let this eat you up anymore. Move on! We all have mistakes to make...we just hope they cause no great harm.
 
What are you talking about?

He is a student who took a nebulous role on a project that was largely self directed. There was no expectations placed on him at this juncture and no reason to believe he had any fiduciary responsibility to this person. He very respectfully removed himself from the project before becoming involved in any substantiative way and had valid reason to do so.

Furthermore he is not working in the pHD world of research. It sounds like some clinical project at a local hospital. There is little to no way this is going to ruin his chances at future projects outside of working with this person.

The person who should be nervous is the dude sending unprotected clinical patient information out to what appears to be a large number of people.


Kevin Baker said:
I have to agree with TAWS that this was very unprofessional, due to the timeframe. Remember, medicine and research is a small world. I doubt you'll be written up and I know you won't be dismissed but...

I had something similar happen (details withheld) while working on a really interesting collaborative summer project with a famous lab in its field. A grad student dropped the ball and basically doomed the project to failure as we couldn't get it done on time. Worse yet, three people at my lab basically lost a summer's worth of research because of it. The PI of that lab is now high up in the medical world and instead of thinking of him as a cool guy in my desired field, we think of him as the PI who ran a crappy lab who wasted our summers. Biased much? Yeah, but one's mistakes can not only reflect on yourself but on others. It's a small world and pissing off the wrong people, especially when they're loca or operate in a small field, can have repercussions. I'm sure that is partly why the fellow is pissed. I'd write a formal letter of apology and hope this blows over. But you may take a reputation hit.
Click to expand...
 
I would not worry about this. You already apologized, end it at that. Anything extra will bring unneeded attention to you. As far as the patient info...if the study involved patients you should have gotten IRB training and HIPPAA training before you were allowed access to patient data. If this did not happen, whoever gave you the data is likely at fault. Again, you did what you were supposed to do, which is to destroy all the data in your possession and notified them. Just know for the future that you must undergo IRB and HIPPAA training. Walk away and relax.
 
Megatron81 said:
What are you talking about?

He is a student who took a nebulous role on a project that was largely self directed. There was no expectations placed on him at this juncture and no reason to believe he had any fiduciary responsibility to this person. He very respectfully removed himself from the project before becoming involved in any substantiative way and had valid reason to do so.

Furthermore he is not working in the pHD world of research. It sounds like some clinical project at a local hospital. There is little to no way this is going to ruin his chances at future projects outside of working with this person.

The person who should be nervous is the dude sending unprotected clinical patient information out to what appears to be a large number of people.
Click to expand...

Look at it from the fellow's perspective. Student agreed to a project, didn't do stuff for multiple months, then, when confronted, said, my bad, and removed him or herself from the project. There was no respectful removal from the project. It was a multiple month long dragging of feet. And medicine is a small world. The fellow can talk to other docs and I'm sure could stir up some trouble if he/she wanted to. You never know who other people know.
 
Kevin Baker said:
Look at it from the fellow's perspective. Student agreed to a project, didn't do stuff for multiple months, then, when confronted, said, my bad, and removed him or herself from the project. There was no respectful removal from the project. It was a multiple month long dragging of feet. And medicine is a small world. The fellow can talk to other docs and I'm sure could stir up some trouble if he/she wanted to. You never know who other people know.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the fellow had a right to be moderately peeved about this, which accounted for his gross overreaction and response to the OP. But to an outsider (which is everyone, aside from the OP and the fellow, and possibly the fellow's mentor) this doesn't rise to the level of "unprofessionalism" and should certainly have no effect on the OP in the future (aside from working w/ the fellow again). I suspect that, if the fellow even did contact his mentor about this, that the mentor cooled his jets pretty fast.
 
Megatron81 said:
What are you talking about?

He is a student who took a nebulous role on a project that was largely self directed. There was no expectations placed on him at this juncture and no reason to believe he had any fiduciary responsibility to this person. He very respectfully removed himself from the project before becoming involved in any substantiative way and had valid reason to do so.

Furthermore he is not working in the pHD world of research. It sounds like some clinical project at a local hospital. There is little to no way this is going to ruin his chances at future projects outside of working with this person.

The person who should be nervous is the dude sending unprotected clinical patient information out to what appears to be a large number of people.
Click to expand...

I was never given clinical data or any type of patient data. The project was largely based on data from previous literature, basically in the spirit of a review article. But it was large scale, and with many different facets that could be researched.

Kevin Baker said:
Look at it from the fellow's perspective. Student agreed to a project, didn't do stuff for multiple months, then, when confronted, said, my bad, and removed him or herself from the project. There was no respectful removal from the project. It was a multiple month long dragging of feet. And medicine is a small world. The fellow can talk to other docs and I'm sure could stir up some trouble if he/she wanted to. You never know who other people know.
Click to expand...

This is exactly how I see it, and I feel awful and stupid about how I behaved. Somewhere in me believed I would find extra time to work on this, and I kept fooling myself until it reached this point.
 
Never let anyone hang "unprofessional" around your neck in this field unless you really deserve it. You made a big mistake by agreeing it was unprofessional. With the information you have presented, the only one unprofessional in this is the fellow.

From what you've said you had no assigned tasks and no deadlines, you have nothing to feel bad about unless youre leaving something out.

This fellow has to be a major douche to treat a medical student like that.
 
HondoCrouch said:
Never let anyone hang "unprofessional" around your neck in this field unless you really deserve it. You made a big mistake by agreeing it was unprofessional. With the information you have presented, the only one unprofessional in this is the fellow.

This fellow has to be a major douche to treat a medical student like that.
Click to expand...

You are acting like unprofessionalism is some sort of honor code violation. It's not. Unprofessionalism occurs all the time. For example, I consider it unprofessional if I email a professor asking a question from his lecture and he flat out ignores it and doesn't respond to it at all.

I can't see you doing well in third year clinicals with an attitude like that.
 
TAWS said:
You are acting like unprofessionalism is some sort of honor code violation. It's not. Unprofessionalism occurs all the time. For example, I consider it unprofessional if I email a professor asking a question from his lecture and he flat out ignores it and doesn't respond to it at all.

I can't see you doing well in third year clinicals with an attitude like that.
Click to expand...

Oh man professors act unprofessionally every day.
 
TAWS said:
You are acting like unprofessionalism is some sort of honor code violation. It's not. Unprofessionalism occurs all the time. For example, I consider it unprofessional if I email a professor asking a question from his lecture and he flat out ignores it and doesn't respond to it at all.

I can't see you doing well in third year clinicals with an attitude like that.
Click to expand...
This is the kind of namby-pamby attitude that makes med school hell for students.
 
Frazier said:
Really? ...You think that your medical school is actually going to expel you for dropping a research project at some local hospital so you could spend more time on your school academics?

Write the fellow back and tell him to stop tripping over his massive e-peen.
Click to expand...


This guy sounds like a real douche. What I would do arrange a meeting with the Dean of your medical and explain the situation. As long as you didn't steal any data you are fine. And the truth of the matter is that your school work comes first before other activities.

I would have loved to have done more research when I was in med school, but I didn't have the time.
 
Kevin Baker said:
Look at it from the fellow's perspective. Student agreed to a project, didn't do stuff for multiple months, then, when confronted, said, my bad, and removed him or herself from the project. There was no respectful removal from the project. It was a multiple month long dragging of feet. And medicine is a small world. The fellow can talk to other docs and I'm sure could stir up some trouble if he/she wanted to. You never know who other people know.
Click to expand...
You can be as idealistic as you want, these things happen all the time. The OP handled a bad situation, yes, of his own creation but also not prevented by the fellow, in the best, most respectful way possible.
 
Kevin Baker said:
Look at it from the fellow's perspective. Student agreed to a project, didn't do stuff for multiple months, then, when confronted, said, my bad, and removed him or herself from the project. There was no respectful removal from the project. It was a multiple month long dragging of feet. And medicine is a small world. The fellow can talk to other docs and I'm sure could stir up some trouble if he/she wanted to. You never know who other people know.
Click to expand...

Ur right. The OP should have done something differently. But this isn't anything serious. Yes, the fellow has a right to be peeved. No, he does not have a leg to stand on via professionalism. Although this is "professionalism" related, it is not what the school is really concerned with
 
cluckcluck said:
I screwed up royally in handling this and I don't know what might happen now or what I should do.

When he emailed me back, he told me that he was furious and would have to speak to his mentor about possibly reporting me to my med school for unprofessional conduct since the information emailed out was group research info that was confidential. He asked me to remove all files from my system related to the project and I complied and apologized again.

Now:

I know that I made a really bad mistake, and am scared of what consequences I could face. Could this end up as a permanent report on my record or even a dismissal? I'm not too familiar with research professionalism and I don't know how bad this could hurt me.
Click to expand...

You want to make an attempt at being professional? Take the fellow up on his offer of discussing it with the mentor and say you will arrange for the meeting with all three of you. Clear the air up front rather than worrying about what will or will not happen. This will test the waters with the fellow and more than likely call his bluff. If such a meeting happens (which I doubt it will), have a copy of the email in your back pocket.

When I was in research I worked with a handful of medical students. They were pretty unreliable as there just wasn't time for them to contribute, thus I had minimal expectations.

And nevertheless, your participation in the research is not indefinite. At some point you would have to move on, and how different is that in regard to the "confidential" information you had?
 
TAWS said:
You are acting like unprofessionalism is some sort of honor code violation. It's not. Unprofessionalism occurs all the time. For example, I consider it unprofessional if I email a professor asking a question from his lecture and he flat out ignores it and doesn't respond to it at all.

I can't see you doing well in third year clinicals with an attitude like that.
Click to expand...

Sorry but if you're a still just a medical student as your profile says then you dont fully understand the weight of "unprofessional" on your record in medicine.

"Unprofessionalism" is a cudgel used to bludgeon physicians, and with that in hand they can end your career in one fell swoop.
 
HondoCrouch said:
Sorry but if you're a still just a medical student as your profile says then you dont fully understand the weight of "unprofessional" on your record in medicine.

"Unprofessionalism" is a cudgel used to bludgeon physicians, and with that in hand they can end your career in one fell swoop.
Click to expand...

Yes but not following through on this is not "unprofessional" in this sense. The OP will be fine
 
VenusinFurs said:
Example, please.
Click to expand...

google "physician unprofessional conduct"

http://www.tri-cityherald.com/2011/04/01/1431624/local-doctor-faces-unprofessional.html

"Patient C died June 8, 2005. In this case, the commission alleges that Cole committed unprofessional conduct by failing to dictate a history and physical report until July 13 -- more than a month after her death -- and that the report lacked necessary elements."


 
michaelrack said:
google "physician unprofessional conduct"

http://www.tri-cityherald.com/2011/04/01/1431624/local-doctor-faces-unprofessional.html

"Patient C died June 8, 2005. In this case, the commission alleges that Cole committed unprofessional conduct by failing to dictate a history and physical report until July 13 -- more than a month after her death -- and that the report lacked necessary elements."


Click to expand...

I glanced at that first article and that seems more like negligence than the "lack of professionalism" with regard to interacting with colleagues, which is what the OP was referring to.
 
FIREitUP said:
I glanced at that first article and that seems more like negligence than the "lack of professionalism" with regard to interacting with colleagues, which is what the OP was referring to.
Click to expand...

Agree that it was not what the OP was referring to; I was trying to support the point made by HondoCrouch:

"Never let anyone hang "unprofessional" around your neck in this field unless you really deserve it".

""Unprofessionalism" is a cudgel used to bludgeon physicians, and with that in hand they can end your career in one fell swoop. "
 
Last edited:
I think there is some confusion of what "professionalism" means. It is totally different from "neglect" in patient care.

For accreditation, LCME requires med schools to teach professionalism as part of the curriculum. Professionalism is considered a core competency requirement.

Professionalism: consistant practice of highest level of professional standards in patient care and medical research
-Demonstrates compassion, honesty and ethical practices
-Meets professional obligations in a reliable and timely fashion
-Treats others in healthcare enviornment in a mannner that fosters mutual respect, trust, and effective patient care

See http://www.case.edu/registrar/CCLCM_competencies.pdf
 
TAWS said:
I think there is some confusion of what "professionalism" means. It is totally different from "neglect" in patient care.

For accreditation, LCME requires med schools to teach professionalism as part of the curriculum. Professionalism is considered a core competency requirement.

Professionalism: consistant practice of highest level of professional standards in patient care and medical research
-Demonstrates compassion, honesty and ethical practices
-Meets professional obligations in a reliable and timely fashion
-Treats others in healthcare enviornment in a mannner that fosters mutual respect, trust, and effective patient care

See http://www.case.edu/registrar/CCLCM_competencies.pdf
Click to expand...

There are various definitions of "professionalism" The point that I and HondoCrouch were trying to make is that a charge of unprofessionalism can have severe consequences for a med student/doctor; and a charge of unprofessionalism needs to be taken seriously and vigorously defended.
 
This is so inconsequential I don't even know how to properly describe how little this matters.
 
michaelrack said:
Agree that it was not what the OP was referring to; I was trying to support the point made by HondoCrouch:

"Never let anyone hang "unprofessional" around your neck in this field unless you really deserve it".

""Unprofessionalism" is a cudgel used to bludgeon physicians, and with that in hand they can end your career in one fell swoop. "
Click to expand...

While I agree that the rhetoric of 'unprofessionalism' is undeniably strong in the medical profession, I think that your example takes the thread on a tangent and isn't entirely relevant. Personally I don't even think this situation was entirely unprofessional. PhD's know medical students are extremely busy and while the OP could have been more proactive, it's on the PhD to monitor his workers (i.e., slaves) to ensure that he is able to get all that he needs done. The PhD was complacent and wasn't on top of his slaves so he deflects this oversight by getting mad at the OP. If anything, the OP committed a faux pas, in my opinion at least. The OP didn't endanger patients and didn't do anything ethically wrong, he just pissed off another self righteous PhD.
 
FIREitUP said:
While I agree that the rhetoric of 'unprofessionalism' is undeniably strong in the medical profession, I think that your example takes the thread on a tangent and isn't entirely relevant. Personally I don't even think this situation was entirely unprofessional. PhD's know medical students are extremely busy and while the OP could have been more proactive, it's on the PhD to monitor his workers (i.e., slaves) to ensure that he is able to get all that he needs done. The PhD was complacent and wasn't on top of his slaves so he deflects this oversight by getting mad at the OP. If anything, the OP committed a faux pas, in my opinion at least. The OP didn't endanger patients and didn't do anything ethically wrong, he just pissed off another self righteous PhD.
Click to expand...

I agree that my example is not similar to what the OP did. I agree that the OP isn't acting unprofessionally.
My point is that the OP should not let himself be labeled as unprofessional.
 
michaelrack said:
I agree that my example is not similar to what the OP did. I agree that the OP isn't acting unprofessionally.
My point is that the OP should not let himself be labeled as unprofessional.
Click to expand...

I agree, but how would you have responded to the email?
 
michaelrack said:
I agree that my example is not similar to what the OP did. I agree that the OP isn't acting unprofessionally.
My point is that the OP should not let himself be labeled as unprofessional.
Click to expand...

then we're in agreement on three counts :laugh:
 
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