In your opinion does being non-trad put you ahead or behind traditional students?

[Laradd]

Being a non-trad myself I felt a had a leg up amongst my fellow class mates in almost every aspect of school including things like social behavior. However, Im not sure this mentality was expressed by adcoms at the schools I applied to (one of the reasons I want to be on the admissions board when I graduate). I was curious to know what others thought especially those that are several years deep into dental/medical/pods who come from a non-trad background.

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[Mike Bagwell]

Being a non-trad myself I felt a had a leg up amongst my fellow class mates in almost every aspect of school including things like social behavior. However, Im not sure this mentality was expressed by adcoms at the schools I applied to (one of the reasons I want to be on the admissions board when I graduate). I was curious to know what others thought especially those that are several years deep into dental/medical/pods who come from a non-trad background.

What is it that you are asking? Socially, yeah a non-trad has a leg up but academically that 22 year old might be smarter than you.

 

[pastrynerd]

Your prefrontal cortex (the rational part of the brain) gets lit at age 25. You're not fully prepared to make adult decisions until that age or around there. That's when we really "grow up", know how to plan and prioritize well, control our impulses, organize our lives in a way that gets us to our end goals. Academically, if you've gained a lot of clinical knowledge/experience as well as taken upper division medical courses, you will have a leg up.

 

[hamiltonnyc]

Correct me if I'm wrong, OP, but it seems like you're asking how it's perceived by adcoms?

 

[Laradd]

Correct me if I'm wrong, OP, but it seems like you're asking how it's perceived by adcoms?

essentially

 

[Mike Bagwell]

essentially

Depends on the school, their mission, and what you have to offer. Life experience won't substitute for grades and MCAT scores unless you have something truly unique to offer up other than being older than the rest of the class. Contrary to what others have said, I don't think you need to be an Olympic medalist or an Astronaut to be unique but just being older with the life experiences that come with that won't be enough to take a spot away from a 22 year old who has a stellar traditional application. You essentially have to come in with the grades and scores and then explain why you want medicine now. If anything, I don't believe that gives a non-trad a leg up on anything.

I'm in my 30's and I had a few jobs before applying but I also have a 512 with a competitive GPA. I don't believe my age helped my cause and it was never a theme in my application. But that's just my school.

 

[Goro]

Being a non-trad myself I felt a had a leg up amongst my fellow class mates in almost every aspect of school including things like social behavior. I was curious to know what others thought especially those that are several years deep into dental/medical/pods who come from a non-trad background.

We Adcoms like non-trads precisely because of this. But as Mike B said, it could be school-specific, and you still need to show that you can handle med school.

 

[stayathomemom]

To play devil's advocate, there are also plenty of people north of 25 or 30 who are very unskilled socially and emotionally. Age may impart experience but not necessarily maturity.

 

[Ad2b]

22 year old might not be smarter than you just faster out of the gate, so to speak, and far more used to memorize/barf-regurgitate-for-exam/forget than an older student who works through the assigned homework problems, studies for the test as suggested and retains the knowledge forever; there was a older premed/now doc on another forum who posted a few years ago:

The ability of the older student to retain the knowledge of the younger student is not decreased, the pathway, however, is different; and it is; make no mistake about that

by and large, I have found being older also gets me past the "oh, I can't talk to the professor" insecurity... just yesterday, I showed up in an old class of mine, sat in the back row, and my professor from 2 years ago, smiled broadly; I asked, after class, if I could sit through his class as a silent auditor to help me reinforce things for the MCAT; his response?

"You are welcome at anytime in any of my classes for whatever you need; let me send you the .... and I'll see you on Th. Oh, and I'm teaching this other class as well ... if you have time. Did you talk to Dr. D to see if you could sit through his as well? I bet he'd like that ... Do you have any research things you need? I can hook you up with some folks over in chem if you'd like ..."

I do NOT think me special, I think any former student of his, having gotten to know him during the time in his class, would get the same response; difference is, I did get to know him

 

[NTF]

I do think adcoms value non-traditional students and their experiences. They don't want their entire student body to be cookie-cutter 22yo medical students and there's a general perception that on average non-trads display more emotional maturity on the wards. But overall non-trad performance during the non-clinical years is more inconsistent which can make schools wary. At my school, while some non-trads were in the top of our class, almost half of the non-trads had academic difficulties (remediation, repeating a year, time off) or left. A significantly higher percentage of them failed to match and had to scramble for residency spots than traditional students.

I wouldn't get too hung up about who has a "leg up". We all come to the table with different strengths and weaknesses. Some of my "traditional" colleagues are among the most impressive people I have ever met.

 

[Ad2b]

At my school, while some non-trads were in the top of our class, almost half of the non-trads had academic difficulties (remediation, repeating a year, time off) or left.

Am wondering if this could be attributed to:

1. family/life balance utterly disrupted by med school requirements and inability to manage effectively
2. unprepared for different studying habits and inability to switch up what works (note card vs Anki, for instance)
3. shock of lifestyle change from former life to med school life

Any or all or ???

 

[stayathomemom]

Am wondering if this could be attributed to:

1. family/life balance utterly disrupted by med school requirements and inability to manage effectively
2. unprepared for different studying habits and inability to switch up what works (note card vs Anki, for instance)
3. shock of lifestyle change from former life to med school life

Any or all or ???

Probably a combo of all, plus the added stress of impostor syndrome when confronted with the reality of AMAZING 22 year olds who have accomplished so much in their short lives already.

 

[Ad2b]

Probably a combo of all, plus the added stress of impostor syndrome when confronted with the reality of AMAZING 22 year olds

I kind of doubt that; we've been going to school with the AMAZING 22 year olds for a few years before we get to med school...

Really would like to hear what the adcom's impression is as it is a legitimate question all non-trads should ask themselves...

 

[DokterMom]

An important part of the equation will be a simple "What have you done with your life in the years since you were 22?" Some non-trads are every bit as amazing year-for-year as their 22 year-old counterparts -- they just went 'that way' first rather than 'this way'. Others were immature at 20, 21 or 22 and needed a few extra years to grow up enough to take life seriously. They are good enough now, but weren't good enough then.

 

[stayathomemom]

I kind of doubt that; we've been going to school with the AMAZING 22 year olds for a few years before we get to med school...

Really would like to hear what the adcom's impression is as it is a legitimate question all non-trads should ask themselves...

Maybe it's just me then...
I have only dabbled in CC courses since the age of 22. I took all of my prereqs back then. Now I have brushed shoulders with other premeds planning to apply soon. Most of them are involved in impressive research things like neuroscience or even gene editing, or extracurriculars that make this old midwestern gal's jaw drop. The vast majority of research opportunities at my agriculture-centric college was crop science research.

 

[Ad2b]

I never took a course at CC but remember a guy in my bio class at big midwestern uni that had just come from there; said he was blown away by the caliber of people in our bio class; he struggled with the pace and expectations and I think that alone maybe made the rest of the class look like pre-neuro surge premeds...

There are always amazing people of any age in any class but the vast majority of premeds, in a few different major institutions, are pretty normalized with pretty normal GPA/MCAT (hopes) trying to do their best to get in.

If YOU are suffering from imposter syndrome - stop. You earned every right to be where you are right now at this exact moment and second guessing yourself is not the way forward to where you want to be.

 

[kbRD2MD84]

If YOU are suffering from imposter syndrome - stop. You earned every right to be where you are right now at this exact moment and second guessing yourself is not the way forward to where you want to be.

This is exactly what I needed to hear right now. I've avoided telling anyone except a few very close friends that I'm planning on med school because I truly don't know if I'll have the application to get an acceptance. I guess I should start believing in myself a little bit

 

[NTF]

Am wondering if this could be attributed to:

1. family/life balance utterly disrupted by med school requirements and inability to manage effectively
2. unprepared for different studying habits and inability to switch up what works (note card vs Anki, for instance)
3. shock of lifestyle change from former life to med school life

Any or all or ???

It's very individual but probably all 3 play a role. Among my classmates that I knew well, some struggled or left because they just couldn't adapt academically, felt guilt about neglecting their families and/or they left very successful careers and felt the indignities of medical training/life weren't worth going through for the what they would gain.
I will say it's a small minority who flame out entirely. Most of my non-trad classmates who took time off eventually returned, graduated and are now in training or practicing.

 

[esob]

I agree that it varies from school to school. I know specifically of one highly ranked school that had an adcom member make an off-color comment about older non-trads in their podcast. On the interview trail, I encountered interviewers who extolled the benefits that non-trads bring to their classes, along with those who essentially berated me for applying at my age, lol. So yes, it is very school specific and I think it is also age specific. Some schools probably like 28-year-old applicants but frown upon 38-year-old applicants. I think the MSAR data pretty much reflects this, as there are schools where non-trads in various age brackets make up either a smaller or larger percentage of the class population than what is represented in the applicant population.

 

[kbRD2MD84]

I think the MSAR data pretty much reflects this, as there are schools where non-trads in various age brackets make up either a smaller or larger percentage of the class population than what is represented in the applicant population.

Totally agree here! I always check that age chart - if they have more than 1 or 2 in their 30s, it makes me feel better about my chances. I'll "only" be 34/35 when applying, but I have a feeling there are adcoms out there with preconceived notions about women in their 30s.

 

[Ad2b]

Okay, so here's another point non-trads tend NOT to do:

sleep through class in the 2nd or 3rd or last row... today, in two different classes, before the professor showed up, they were talking about being a doctor, and why they' were planning to do during gap year after admission... about 10 mins later in BOTH classes, I turned to my left and saw this girl who was complaining that she "could not possibly memorize all this crap" sound asleep (2nd row in small class) and in the last one? same thing...

I mean, if you're tired, skip class, go home to sleep but don't be rude

 

[skeptastic]

22 year old might not be smarter than you just faster out of the gate, so to speak, and far more used to memorize/barf-regurgitate-for-exam/forget than an older student who works through the assigned homework problems, studies for the test as suggested and retains the knowledge forever; there was a older premed/now doc on another forum who posted a few years ago:

The ability of the older student to retain the knowledge of the younger student is not decreased, the pathway, however, is different; and it is; make no mistake about that

by and large, I have found being older also gets me past the "oh, I can't talk to the professor" insecurity... just yesterday, I showed up in an old class of mine, sat in the back row, and my professor from 2 years ago, smiled broadly; I asked, after class, if I could sit through his class as a silent auditor to help me reinforce things for the MCAT; his response?

"You are welcome at anytime in any of my classes for whatever you need; let me send you the .... and I'll see you on Th. Oh, and I'm teaching this other class as well ... if you have time. Did you talk to Dr. D to see if you could sit through his as well? I bet he'd like that ... Do you have any research things you need? I can hook you up with some folks over in chem if you'd like ..."

I do NOT think me special, I think any former student of his, having gotten to know him during the time in his class, would get the same response; difference is, I did get to know him

Bingo! If I've learned anything from my career in sales, it is the value of establishing genuine relationships. Not the ones where you're faking it in an attempt to get a reward at the end of the experience but legit relationships. I think professors can differentiate between genuine and b.s. and those genuine relationships have been amazing during this process.

I haven't gotten any LOR's yet, as I am not at the application stage but I have been offered several by professors. I consider most of these professors to be friends more than instructors. It's amazing what being truly interested in both an instructor (or a person in general) and their course yields, naturally. Even when the professors have covered difficult material or given tough exams, having good relationships with them has made the entire course enjoyable, regardless of its difficulty.

You have my cosign, for sure!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It's very individual but probably all 3 play a role. Among my classmates that I knew well, some struggled or left because they just couldn't adapt academically, felt guilt about neglecting their families and/or they left very successful careers and felt the indignities of medical training/life weren't worth going through for the what they would gain.
I will say it's a small minority who flame out entirely. Most of my non-trad classmates who took time off eventually returned, graduated and are now in training or practicing.

And all but a few of the non-trads I know are killing it. Anecdotal experience is anecdotal. (And all but one of the ones who aren’t doing well are young.)

 

[EasyEveryoneWouldDoIt]

i was 5/6 for interviews i attended ... in a cycle that people said there would be a lot more WL due to the new AAMC rules. i know that once i got to the interview stage, my life experience and what I done shined through. i know i am only one story, but i think once you get to the interview stage being a non-traditional is huge leg up because you have so many stories of working in teams, or times you failed, or a deeper reason about why you are choosing medicine because for most of us it is a career change

 

[Ad2b]

in a cycle that people said there would be a lot more WL due to the new AAMC rules.

what rules?

 

[EasyEveryoneWouldDoIt]

schools no longer get an acceptance report. before schools that accepted you were able to see where else you have been accepted. so they can kind of gauge if you would be more likely to go to that school or not or decline based upon that

 

[Ad2b]

@EasyEveryoneWouldDoIt thank you for explaining - wonder if that helps / hurts candidates

 

[EasyEveryoneWouldDoIt]

people theorized that schools would WL a lot more and there would be more movement on traffic day. its tough to say if its true or not

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

@EasyEveryoneWouldDoIt thank you for explaining - wonder if that helps / hurts candidates

Will likely hurt candidates in the short term, but help them later. Could be chaos for schools though.

 

[Dave1980]

It really depends what you did with those years. If you did something productive it is helpful. If you were a barista (no offense) it would not be helpful.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It really depends what you did with those years. If you did something productive it is helpful. If you were a barista (no offense) it would not be helpful.

Adcoms seem to really value customer service experience actually.

 

[Dave1980]

Adcoms seem to really value customer service experience actually.

Come on man...

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Come on man...

 

[ciestar]

Come on man...

He isn’t wrong.

 

[M&L]

So, i am a non-traditional:
33 yo female,
prior Bachelor in Finance, MBA,
Army (behavioral health technician), manager of Supply section in a medical unit,
After Army- second BS Chemistry (Biochem, graduating this spring),
internship in NIH (pathology)
working full time in an addiction treatment facility while in school full time.

So i immigrated to US from Eastern Europe when i was 21, so all of those things listed - two bachelors, masters, and Army - happened in the past 12 years. So ive been busy. hahahaha. Do i feel "old"?, - yeah. Now, keep in mind, i do not have any acceptances yet, but i do have 6 interviews (2 WL, 1 hold, 1 pending decision, 2 more to come). BTW i have NO IDEA why i have so many interviews, - my GPA is 3.6 and MCAT 511. Those numbers are nothing special, especially on the GPA side. I feel like ive been very lucky. (still no acceptances, so at this point, i will assume that i have to reapply next cycle).
So every time i am in the interview i definitely feel older than others. I look at other students who consider themselves non-traditional (they took 2 year gap), and i feel the difference. Usually students who are closer to "traditional" age have better internships and research than me, because there are a lot of great non-paid internships/research out there, and honestly, i just could never afford doing them (adulting sucks ). The only reason i got the NIH under my belt is because it was a paid internship and i could afford quitting MY SECOND JOB, so i worked in NIH, and then went straight to the addiction treatment for overnight shift. I pulled 70 hours weekly with 3 hours of daily commuting, but it was worth every second. Another thing that i noticed about students that are younger, - they usually have much better extracurricular activities than I do - they have different college involvement stuff, like fraternity, sorority, clubs, etc. I am really jealous of that . I never had a chance to experience that, (only what i saw in the movies).
I guess i have these self-esteem issues that somehow they are better than me. I know this is totally wrong, but i think it does go through a head of any nontraditional student in late 20s or 30s.
Now, as far as whether i am concerned about medical school being harder for non-traditionals? I think it depends. I know it is REALLY hard to get back into studying mode after being out of academics for several years. Thankfully, i have been in school non-stop for the past 6 years or so, and i feel like for me personally it will be a very smooth transition. I am a biochemistry major though (and love it very much), so i have taken a lot of crazy classes in chemistry department, i have been a learning assistant, etc. I have also taken advanced anatomy and physiology, microbiology, virology, genetics, etc. But i have some friends who had problems for the first few weeks in medical school as non-traditionals, but they just worked hard at it, and after a month or so they were doing great. So, the bottom line, - do i think some traditional students have advantage over me because their extra curricular activities look more diverse? yes. Do i have issues feeling "old", - yes. Do i think they are smarter? no. Do i think they will do better in medical school? not really. I think it is very individual. Do i think i am more prepared for psychological challenges of medical school? absolutely. I have been working with mentally ill and disabled patients, drug addicts, alcoholics for years. I also became crazy good at multitasking (like majority of non-trads i know), so medical school doesnt really scare me.

As far as what do adcom think? i think it depends on the school. From the schools that invited me to interview, i can tell that two schools asked me A LOT of questions about my experiences. in GREAT detail. So it made me think that it is my unique experiences that might be the reason i got invited there. Other schools did not really ask about experiences at all, - sort of just verified a few facts, checked some dates, and moved on. So i think it depends.