Inches from dropping out

[Minaman]

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I'm hoping for some objective advice. I made a few mistakes in going to medical school, and now I'm not sure what to do. I've come to realize that I don't like medicine as much as I though I did, and in all my 3rd year clerkships, only surgery has been even close to making me feel like it was something I could do. Let me explain the situation:
Current debt: 333,000; Debt upon graduation: 450,000; debt after 5 year residency (interest only): 632000
Now according to my calculations, it would take me 14 years to pay that off, living off of 60k a year and throwing everyone else at loans on a average surgery pay (350,000), counting residency. Which puts me at 45 years old, my oldest would be off to college that year, and I would have had 0 money saved up, and no life for that whole time.

If I drop out I'd probably start a business or get another job, I'm sure I could find a 6 figure job within 3-4 years, and then only have 333,000 of debt.

Also pretty sure even general surgery would be hard for me to get into as i'm bottom 1/3 of class and have a 400 COMLEX step one (188 equivalent USMLE)

So it boils down to this choice. Do something I really don't like and be broke (medicine), do something that I like but makes me a pretty crappy father and broke most of my life (surgery), or do something else (estimate about the same time frame for debt free but I'd be around as a father more) and be broke most of my life but do something I enjoy (other). Opinions?

 

[ACSurgeon]

I'm hoping for some objective advice. I made a few mistakes in going to medical school, and now I'm not sure what to do. I've come to realize that I don't like medicine as much as I though I did, and in all my 3rd year clerkships, only surgery has been even close to making me feel like it was something I could do. Let me explain the situation:
Current debt: 333,000; Debt upon graduation: 450,000; debt after 5 year residency (interest only): 632000
Now according to my calculations, it would take me 14 years to pay that off, living off of 60k a year and throwing everyone else at loans on a average surgery pay (350,000), counting residency. Which puts me at 45 years old, my oldest would be off to college that year, and I would have had 0 money saved up, and no life for that whole time.

If I drop out I'd probably start a business or get another job, I'm sure I could find a 6 figure job within 3-4 years, and then only have 333,000 of debt.

Also pretty sure even general surgery would be hard for me to get into as i'm bottom 1/3 of class and have a 400 COMLEX step one (188 equivalent USMLE)

So it boils down to this choice. Do something I really don't like and be broke (medicine), do something that I like but makes me a pretty crappy father and broke most of my life (surgery), or do something else (estimate about the same time frame for debt free but I'd be around as a father more) and be broke most of my life but do something I enjoy (other). Opinions?

I think it's very hopeful to think you can secure a 6 figure job within 2-3 years of quitting school. Find a specialty you enjoy and do it. Or use it to become a hospital administrator - that will make you money without practicing medicine.

Regarding loans there are options for loan forgiveness if you work at any non-profit org for 10 years while paying a certain percentage of your income. Residency years count too. So if you can match gen surg, train for 5 to 9 years, and work at a VA for 1 to 5 years afterwards, and you'll be home free (not sure of the details. Seek advice from financial aid or others who've done this).

Alternatively, pay the minimum amount over 30 years while enjoying life and saving/investing your money.

 

[Zarika]

I'm hoping for some objective advice. I made a few mistakes in going to medical school, and now I'm not sure what to do. I've come to realize that I don't like medicine as much as I though I did, and in all my 3rd year clerkships, only surgery has been even close to making me feel like it was something I could do. Let me explain the situation:
Current debt: 333,000; Debt upon graduation: 450,000; debt after 5 year residency (interest only): 632000
Now according to my calculations, it would take me 14 years to pay that off, living off of 60k a year and throwing everyone else at loans on a average surgery pay (350,000), counting residency. Which puts me at 45 years old, my oldest would be off to college that year, and I would have had 0 money saved up, and no life for that whole time.

If I drop out I'd probably start a business or get another job, I'm sure I could find a 6 figure job within 3-4 years, and then only have 333,000 of debt.

Also pretty sure even general surgery would be hard for me to get into as i'm bottom 1/3 of class and have a 400 COMLEX step one (188 equivalent USMLE)

So it boils down to this choice. Do something I really don't like and be broke (medicine), do something that I like but makes me a pretty crappy father and broke most of my life (surgery), or do something else (estimate about the same time frame for debt free but I'd be around as a father more) and be broke most of my life but do something I enjoy (other). Opinions?

For full disclosure, I'm a MS1 and came straight from undergrad, so I don't have much in the way of "real life" experience to offer.

What makes you so certain that you'd be so easily able to land a 6 figure job? Specifically, did you have a career before medical school? Even if you did, do you still have those contacts?

How do you feel about research? That might be another option? I know the NIH has a program for medical school grads to do full-time research and they assist in loan repayment. I'm not sure how competitive those are, but it might be something to look into.

I would finish medical school. Then I would look very seriously into programs that help pay back loans. (Earning a salary and getting some loan repayment would help you get rid of the debt faster.) Most of those are primary care not surgery, but if you don't like anything anyways, does it really matter what field you're in? Plus, family or medicine is a quick three year residency. Plus it would give you more time with your family as you'd have more reasonable hours. As soon as your loans are manageable, get out of medicine and do whatever you want.

I think at 333K right now, you have too much debt to walk away. How will you get the funds to start a business? I can't imagine any bank would be too keen to give you a small business loan with your debt to income ratio.

Edit: I see the poster above me beat me to pretty much the exact same idea.

 

[DrDrToBe]

Another option is biotech. If you're interested in managing clinical trials or being a medical advisor, those pay really well and you wouldn't need to so any patient care. Consulting is also a pretty cush job from what I've heard and you don't even need to do a residency. I've heard of folks who landed a consulting job straight out of med school, did it for a couple years and paid down their debt, then gone on to residency. An MD definitely increases your earning potential, so my suggestion would be to finish your degree and then do a career change as needed (especially since you've already invested so much, both financially and emotionally).

 

[hot sauce]

Wow that is a lot of debt which (as you know) puts you in a difficult spot. As mentioned above if choose to become a physician there are a number of options for paying off your loans that you may be unaware that should make it less overwhelming than you think. If you do surgery I don't think you are destined to be broke most of your life. You just need to sit down with someone who knows the ins and outs of medical school loans work out a plan.

However, your question is not really something strangers on the internet can answer for you. I would say don't do something you hate. It sounds like one of the main concerns you have about general surgery is the lifestyle and being around for your kid(s). To address that I would talk to surgeons or surgery residents. I have been told that some community programs have hours that are a bit more humane (I don't know details as I don't want to be surgeon and perhaps that is untrue). Once you are an attending you should be able to find a job that allows you to have time with your kids but that job may require other sacrifices such as moving or lower pay.

My best advice is in addition to the posts here seek advice at your school. Talk to the dean at your school or a mentor to help decide on what is best for you. Also speak to a financial person at the school who can help you figure out possible repayment options.

 

[da8s0859q]

OP, I'm only an M2 who spent only a small period of time doing other things between college and med school, but I'd say you've come entirely too far to drop out now. Not just because of the money... also because you have more medical school behind you than you do in front of you.

I don't have any unique suggestions to add that weren't already mentioned, but good luck. I know it's a really tough place to be.

 

[Minaman]

thanks for all the reply's. I guess I hit a number wrong somewhere in my calculations cause for whatever reason I got 5 years longer than you guys did. But I checked it and you are right.

Does anyone know a surgeon that makes good money with a good lifestyle?
Does anyone think I can get into general surgery with my numbers?

those are the biggest risks to me to doing surgery since i'm pretty sure i'd like it...just wife and kids I'm worried about.

 

[organdonor]

What kind of debt did you start med school with and why?

You need to look up "Income based repayment" or IBR.

It is a program to assist in loan repayment based on your income. After a certain amount of time of making minimum payments it forgives the balance. This applies to federal loans so private ones wouldn't be forgivable. I wouldn't count on this because the legislation regarding it and similar programs changes yearly but know that there is hope.

Many jobs will offer to repay a portion of your debt to recruit you.

 

[kcin]

I think you mean centimeters. USE BIG BOY UNITS.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I think you mean centimeters. USE BIG BOY UNITS.

Thanks for adding uselessness to a serious thread.

 

[MossPoh]

You can be a surgeon that works less hours but makes less and has that debt grow or you can work more hours and knock down that debt faster. You won't be able to have both.

If you really only hate surgery slightly less than the other fields, I'd look into just manning up and doing family med or some other primary care specialty and then find a loan repayment program and do your stent of time there before going off and doing other things. There are tons of people who hate their job and stay in it for a decades, so you could suffer a few years if you had to.

 

[frozen_canadian]

I'm hoping for some objective advice. I made a few mistakes in going to medical school, and now I'm not sure what to do. I've come to realize that I don't like medicine as much as I though I did, and in all my 3rd year clerkships, only surgery has been even close to making me feel like it was something I could do. Let me explain the situation:
Current debt: 333,000; Debt upon graduation: 450,000; debt after 5 year residency (interest only): 632000

Just browsing here but how is it possible to accumulate $110,000 in 1 year of medical school? I assume you are heading into 4th year - are there medical schools that have over $90,000/yr tuition?!

 

[txprodigal]

Just browsing here but how is it possible to accumulate $110,000 in 1 year of medical school? I assume you are heading into 4th year - are there medical schools that have over $90,000/yr tuition?!

could include previous undergraduate debt

 

[shiftingmirage]

Does anyone know a surgeon that makes good money with a good lifestyle?
Does anyone think I can get into general surgery with my numbers?

those are the biggest risks to me to doing surgery since i'm pretty sure i'd like it...just wife and kids I'm worried about.

From what everyone says, 4th year is a breeze. At my school, I think we need something like 28 weeks of clinicals during 4th year to graduate, compared to 48 for 3rd. You've come this far, at the very least finish your degree.

Since you like surgery, you may want to explore specialties that are a mix of surgery and med. Urology, optho, ENT, I'm sure some others. They will have nicer hours than surgery. Could also look into EM.

 

[ACSurgeon]

From what everyone says, 4th year is a breeze. At my school, I think we need something like 28 weeks of clinicals during 4th year to graduate, compared to 48 for 3rd. You've come this far, at the very least finish your degree.

Since you like surgery, you may want to explore specialties that are a mix of surgery and med. Urology, optho, ENT, I'm sure some others. They will have nicer hours than surgery. Could also look into EM.

The OP is at a DO school and seems to have a low step1. Surgical Subpecialties will be a reach.

I agree with MossPoh. Family med is a 3 year residency, so your debt will grow less during training. You can get a job making 180 K four years from now. You'll have plenty of time for your wife and kids. You can live like a pharmacist (on a 100 k/yr--> 65K after taxes) and have 80 k for loans (55k after tax). You could be debt free in ~10 years, without living a difficult life.

 

[fahimaz7]

I'd stay in school and get your degree. If you don't, your chance of every paying off those loans is basically out of the question. Sucks that it's the way it is, but that's the way it is.

🙁

 

[frozen_canadian]

could include previous undergraduate debt

Overall maybe, but according to the OP's calculation, his debt will increase by $117,000 over the next year. Just wondering how this is possible.

 

[peppy]

If you're thinking of quitting medicine altogether I would probably advise against making the commitment to surgery unless you really truly love it. Surgery has the worst attrition rate of any specialty and even many people who start out thinking they like it realize they don't like it enough to be worth the sacrifices. You may want to go to the forum for Surgery on here to ask their opinions about lifestyle but my perception is that general surgery is really not that flexible even after residency.
What was your exposure to family medicine like? I wonder if a compromise might be to look for a FM residency that emphasizes procedures (some of the cowboy programs do prepare FM residents to do surgery including c-sections).
That way you can get the exposure to surgery you enjoy but have more flexibility in lifestyle after residency in case you decide it's getting in the way of having time for your family.

 

[Zarika]

Overall maybe, but according to the OP's calculation, his debt will increase by $117,000 over the next year. Just wondering how this is possible.

Some DO schools (and some MD schools too) are around 70K per year. Then he will also be earning interest on the first 333K. If he's at 333K then a good chunk of that is private loans. (I think Federal max out at ~250K. But this could be just Stafford and not include Grad Plus, I'm not sure.)

 

[Jolie South]

This thread has been cross-posted. Please see this thread for further discussion. Closing thread.